Question for Atheists and those who do NOT believe in God...

[JamesM]

Thanks, Moai. Believe it or not...you are part of my inspiration for this thread. Seriously.

 

I appreciate the comments, and I appreciate the way they are being said. I think it is good for Christians and those of other faiths to hear the other side without trying to refute the comment. I agree with what some have said....many times the goal is to convert without listening to what is being said. Too often in any argument...not just religion, the goal is to win points as in a debate. And unfortunately, even if we win, we end up losing. So, I lose in an argument, or I win? Does that make my side more truthful or less truthful? No. It means that I can argue my side successfully...or I cannot.

 

And what use is it to quote Scriptures/the Bible to someone who doesn't believe the Bible is the Word of God?

 

I better not go any farther or I may hijack my own thread.

 

Feel free to continue as if I am not in the room.

[oppath]

This is slightly off topic, but one of the things that irks non-believers is the zealousness of some (certainly not all) religious people. It is not behavior to emulate.

 

When it comes to issues regarding creationism or intelligent design (which is not the point of this thread, but I mention it to stress the rift), there was a review done a few years ago, and there weren't any articles supporting those "theories" even SUBMITTED to peer reviewed biology, cosmologoy, or even philosophy journals. Yeah, they wouldn't be accepted, but if you are serious about promoting a credible alternative, you need to fight that battle in a credible venue. The Kansas K-12 public school system isn't the venue, peer reviewed journals are.

 

For people who don't believe in god, it is mostly because we don't feel there needs to be a god to explain our world and lives. I really feel the rigid religious fanatics make the rift more large, because the people who often appear the most religious are, well, crazy in the eyes of a non-believer (which itself sounds insulting because believing is the majority status quo). I truly believe so much about organized religion and the fanatics I see is ethically wrong, and that makes me want to see MORE conclusive evidence for god. What that evidence would be, I can't say exactly, but it has to be pretty great because so much about religion, in my view, is wrong.

[popey]

The existence of God seems as silly to me today as past beliefs about Gods and fires, tides, storms, plagues, love, beauty, fertility. Throughout history, humans have created "god" beleifs to explain that which we do not yet have to ability to explain otherwise. Also to create some constant source of comfort from that which hurts us or causes us to fear.

 

Religions of past and present, have writings, beliefs and rituals in conflict with one another, as well as in conflict with science. Not too mention the wild conflicts w/in the christian bible itself for example. Why is that? B/c we made it up.

 

When I talk to people who do believe, and present intellectual discrepencies, the response is always, "faith is believing in something you can't prove."

 

Anything that requires that you ignore your critical thinking abilities, in order for it to be beleivable, can't be right. Why would a God put you in a situation in which you must oppress your "god given abilities" in order to be righteous?

[johan]

The headline on this thread has been bugging me. I keep thinking I must be missing something. Are there any atheists who DO believe in God?

[JamesM]

The headline on this thread has been bugging me. I keep thinking I must be missing something. Are there any atheists who DO believe in God?

 

:laugh:

 

Thanks for the laugh! There is always someone who brings it to the room.

 

You are so right. This is what a friend of mine would have called the Redundant Redundancy Department.

[JamesM]

BTW, I am wondering if more people have an answer to

 

"what evidence would convince you there really is a God?"

[popey]

I've been thinking about that second question James, and I was thinking maybe some scientificly authenticated Xzillion y/o "document" containing writings like, "I am god, and it is so nice to walk on earth on its earliest days, just me and the bacteria." or whatever. But as silly as that suggestion is, I realized that this would not convince me either, b/c it is so much more believable that this is the result of some early species we haven't yet learned about having existed, or visitors not from this planet.

[johan]

BTW, I am wondering if more people have an answer to

 

"what evidence would convince you there really is a God?"

 

Don't you mean, "what evidence would convince you enough to make you believe there really is a God who exists?" I think clarity is everything in the written word.

[lonelybird]

JamesM

 

There is a trend out there people want to stop God's words publicaly. hopefully not happening here:p, I know your intention is good. sometimes non-believers' comments seem intimidating, riding fence isn't good (not you). there are always conflict exist, conflict between 'flesh' and 'spirit', between 'light' and 'darkness', but stand what we believe in the Bible and what Lord teach us is the way. not what we think about

 

God words is love, light, and all good things in God's words, and scripture is God's words. As we know that God's words themselves have power, like sword can penetrate people's heart. It seems like dumb method to quote scripture to unbelievers, but what can convert people's heart? it is God who can convert people's heart, not that our smart debate can win, nothing is about us, about our ability, but everything is about God power and God's words. God's words is the very basic and powerful tools to awaken people's heart and conscience.

 

As for why non-believers think the way they think, everyone has his/her own reasons. and I think if they are exposed to God's words enough, and they have to choose, some will choose light, some won't, and we have nothing to do with what they choose. I Remember Lord said "those who is teached by God himself will finally follow Lord", those are predestined by God. not you and I can change. and if you believe in God, HOly Spirit, and you know there are also dark invisible forces out there to influence people's mind, to prevent them from believing in God. and who will win? of course God's word, LIGHT, will win in the end. but if we stop spreading God's words, we will not win for sure. I said 'win' not mean win over people, but win over dark forces that prevent people from believing.

 

If there are 1,000 non-believers out there, there will be at least 1,000 reasons they don't believe. I believe the more light (God's words) spread, the more they are exposed to light, the more chance they have to choose light; but expose negativeness will sow more negativeness in people and people who see these.

 

and I admired your debate about evolution

[JamesM]

Thanks for your comments/compliments. I am sure that many of us reading the stories of the journeys told here have many thoughts. But in this thread that is what I wanted to focus on...the reasons that people have for doubting or not believing in a God.

 

I am sure that in other threads we will have a chance to discuss those reasons, but here I really want to learn what the reasons are. As soon as we debate the reasons, the purpose of the thread is lost.

[lonelybird]

Thanks for your comments/compliments. I am sure that many of us reading the stories of the journeys told here have many thoughts. But in this thread that is what I wanted to focus on...the reasons that people have for doubting or not believing in a God.

 

I am sure that in other threads we will have a chance to discuss those reasons, but here I really want to learn what the reasons are. As soon as we debate the reasons, the purpose of the thread is lost.

reason is only one. they are not taught by God yet, or they choose not to, okay, I will shut up, your thread didn't lost the purpose, i will disappear

[tanbark813]

JamesM

 

There is a trend out there people want to stop God's words publicaly. hopefully not happening here:p, I know your intention is good. sometimes non-believers' comments seem intimidating, riding fence isn't good (not you). there are always conflict exist, conflict between 'flesh' and 'spirit', between 'light' and 'darkness', but stand what we believe in the Bible and what Lord teach us is the way. not what we think about

 

God words is love, light, and all good things in God's words, and scripture is God's words. As we know that God's words themselves have power, like sword can penetrate people's heart. It seems like dumb method to quote scripture to unbelievers, but what can convert people's heart? it is God who can convert people's heart, not that our smart debate can win, nothing is about us, about our ability, but everything is about God power and God's words. God's words is the very basic and powerful tools to awaken people's heart and conscience.

 

As for why non-believers think the way they think, everyone has his/her own reasons. and I think if they are exposed to God's words enough, and they have to choose, some will choose light, some won't, and we have nothing to do with what they choose. I Remember Lord said "those who is teached by God himself will finally follow Lord", those are predestined by God. not you and I can change. and if you believe in God, HOly Spirit, and you know there are also dark invisible forces out there to influence people's mind, to prevent them from believing in God. and who will win? of course God's word, LIGHT, will win in the end. but if we stop spreading God's words, we will not win for sure. I said 'win' not mean win over people, but win over dark forces that prevent people from believing.

 

If there are 1,000 non-believers out there, there will be at least 1,000 reasons they don't believe. I believe the more light (God's words) spread, the more they are exposed to light, the more chance they have to choose light; but expose negativeness will sow more negativeness in people and people who see these.

 

and I admired your debate about evolution

 

This is a good example of what's annoying about some religious folks. I could just as easily say that a belief in quantum physics is "light" and a belief in Christianity is "dark". Neither argument has any more weight than the other because it's all just semantics coupled with a subtle mockery.

[lonelybird]

This is a good example of what's annoying about some religious folks. I could just as easily say that a belief in quantum physics is "light" and a belief in Christianity is "dark". Neither argument has any more weight than the other because it's all just semantics coupled with a subtle mockery.

I was an atheist once, I didn't believe anything, but God showed his supernature power to me, here I am. It is not because we are righteous enough, so God shows him to us, but because God's mercy and grace.

 

I think you misunderstood what I meant 'dark', I don't against science. science study outside world, visible world; but God is spirit, faith is about invisible world, about love, compassion, about what is inside of human being.

 

because you quoted my post, so I replied, I am going

[burning 4 revenge]

I know it is a bit trite, but why does the belief in a god comfort people. I mean if a god was responsible for this existence then he must either be a rather spiteful bastard or have a serious lack of vision. I find much more comfort in thinking that theres plan at work here

[tanbark813]

I was an atheist once, I didn't believe anything,

 

No disrespect to you, lonelybird, but this is another great example. An atheist does not believe in nothing. An atheist--or agnostic, for that matter--believes in something, just not what a Christian does.

[tanbark813]

I mean if a god was responsible for this existence then he must either be a rather spiteful bastard or have a serious lack of vision.

 

Ha.. very good point.

[lonelybird]

I know it is a bit trite, but why does the belief in a god comfort people. I mean if a god was responsible for this existence then he must either be a rather spiteful bastard or have a serious lack of vision. I find much more comfort in thinking that theres plan at work here

God isn't Santa Clause , but whenever you are in spirit, you have that rejoice and peace in your heart, sometimes it is difficult though, we have to make effort to stay in spirit, stay in reading God's words, stay in believing God no matter what happen, as long as you choose to believe, harsh reality begin to change, yes, God is supernature power, he is able

[oppath]

A debate is about to get started, Lonelybird. I'll ask you, aside from "I need to believe in God I just do I need faith" what evidence is there for a God that could sway me? Is a God necessary to explain the physical and biological universe? Can those things be explained at all absent a God?

 

Moreover, assuming God does exist, if an agnostic or atheist goes before God on judgment day, is it possible that, before the face of God, you will be so completely humbled that your sins will either totally apparent and you will be completely repentant, or completely unrepentant? Is believing really the only path to salvation? Could not someone devoutly religious have sinned more than an atheist? In that case would God really spare the Christian and punish the atheist to damnation?

 

It seems to me like the Christian-Judaic-Islamic God wouldn't actually give a rat's ass about being worshiped. That is such a vainful characteristic. If anything trying to understand how the universe works is much more God's work than being religious and not constantly questioning it. My big problem with religion is the ABSENCE of debate and critical thought. We are TOLD what to think. I used to be a pretty religious guy but it was made quite apparent to me that outside of going to seminary school, there was no place for critical thought within the Christian church.

 

And...is it possible to do God's work without being religious? God works in mysterious ways, right? Maybe there is a reason for agnostics and atheists. Maybe we perform God's work in other ways, for reasons you aren't meant to understand.

[popey]

Someone once said to me, "if you don't believe in God, then what's to stop you from killing people."

 

that's as ridiculous as some of the things being said here. Spirit, rejoice, warmth, humaness, heart: I don't get this from God. I don't beleive. I just have it. Its all mine, period.

 

PS- since they are not oppressed by judjemental and incoherent codes and hierarchies- many atheists live their lives much more like Jesus suggested then many christian's I've known of.

[crosswordfiend]

At present, I'd say that I'm firmly in the atheist camp. This is definitely a recent phenomenon as I've only been thinking critically about God and religion for the past year or two. Once I started that process, it was fairly straightforward getting to my current position. And most of the reasons that I have for not believing in God have already been elucidated by other posters so I won't go into detail here.

 

But that's not the most interesting part of this question. What got me REALLY thinking was trying to recall what was going on in my head before deciding that it was time to start thinking seriously about the existence of God.

 

I was raised in a secular household. My mother was and still is a church lady, but my father wanted nothing to do with religion. As a child, my mother would take us to church on sunday. I have recollections of going to sunday school, but they weren't very vivid. I knew things like the ten commandments and lord's prayer by heart, but it was more because I treated them as a game - a memory quiz if you will. I don't think I ever bothered to ask anyone what the words actually meant. And as for prayer, I just kept my head down and waited for the all clear signal before looking up again. I don't think I ever prayed for anything... Why???

 

Maybe God just never entered my consciousness. Maybe there was no need for God to enter my consciousness. Whatever the answer, I'm glad that I was allowed to address the question of God and religion at a time of my choosing without any of the baggage that comes from indoctrination.

[sb129]

allina makes some strong points: For us non-believers, what's galling is not only what people believe, but how these absolutist beliefs affect others--especially non-believers.

To paraphrase Yeats: the best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity, fundamentalist convictions and homicidal religiosity.

 

Great post, I keep echoing other posters- I am going to sound like parrot.

Lindya and Allina made some great posts also regarding laws and when religion and politics intertwine.

I made a post a while back on another thread about when the lines between religion and politics get blurred, and I think this is one of the biggest problems i have with it, because thats when intolerance, bigotry and hatred can become encouraged by political leaders.

 

 

 

And...is it possible to do God's work without being religious? God works in mysterious ways, right? Maybe there is a reason for agnostics and atheists. Maybe we perform God's work in other ways, for reasons you aren't meant to understand.

 

 

Yes, of course it is. Many possibly do gods work BETTER because they are doing it without an ulterior motive (heaven) or a warped sense of what is right/ wrong.

[lovelorcet]

Again, I have full faith in the human race to set up a set of morals without the need of religion and I will even go as far to say that I would find a completely secular set of morals more just than ones with religious influences.

 

But as JamesM was asking about how much proof of God I would need, I would say that threshold is pretty low. There are very very few compelling arguments from religion out there which better describe our natural world than a science based system.

 

There are many things we can not explain at the moment but that does not prove anything in the favor of religion. That is the seductive side of religion; we cant really describe the super giant black hole in the center of our galaxy, scientist will admit this. This does not mean this is where science ends and god begins... This simply just shows us that we need to develop a new set of physics to describe this phenomenon.

 

One can go with these arguments in circles forever but religious people are convinced and they call that faith. No matter how convincing the other argument is they will stick to their faith.

 

I have no need to have faith in the physics that hold me to the earth or the biology that makes my heart pump. It is what it is... I don't have to believe anything to describe it.

[Moai]

In reading the more recent posts, I am surprised that nobody has mentioned the biggest reason of all (at least for me) that leads to atheism: Religions are stupid.

 

Yeah, you read that right, STUPID.

 

let's take Christianity, since that is the religion with which we are probably most familiar:

 

God creates everything. In one version he creates man and woman out of dust, in the other woman is created from Adam's rib.

 

Humans are in a garden where everything is perfect, and nothing ever dies. (This will be important later!)

 

God gives instructions to Adam that he could not possibly understand about a Magic Tree that imparts knowledge of good and evil if youeat from it. It would seem that they didn't eat quite enough of said fruit sometimes, no?

 

Another being created by God, The Serpent/Satan/Lucifer/The Devil tempted Eve, and got her to eat the fruit, and she in turn corrputed Adam.

 

God gets angry, and curses The Serpent to crawl on the ground and eat dust from then on. This is interesting itself, as there is only ONE Satan, and yet ALL snakes are cursed inthis way--forgetting that snakes are a very successful type of organism, and don't eat dust.

 

Women are cursed with more pain during childbirth, and men have to work to get food. Also, Adam and Eve have to leave the Garden, lest they eat form the Tree of Life and live forever--which they were going to do anyway before they ate from Tree #1....

 

Adam and Eve's children manage to find wives from somewhere.

 

The world turns horribly evil, so god decides to flood everything. He has Noah build an Ark, and either two of every animal or seven of every clean animal or whatever get on board and they go a-sailing. After 40 days and 40 nights, they hit land, and begin to resttle the land.

 

This all happened less than 6,000 years ago, yet there is not ONE statue to Noah ANYWHERE on Earth. You would think that the man who is solely responsible for human survival would have merited at least a plaque, or a holiday. No such luck.

 

God creates rainbows (or, refraction) at this time to show that he'll never flood the Earth again. In a particularly brilliant move, he changes phsyics so such a flood is impossible, and appears to have always been. Genius.

 

Fast forward a few generations. Read about how to sacrifice animals because burning kidneys, etc. smell good to god. One wonders why god didn't make air just smell like that since he can do anything he likes, but he decided he'd rather have people burn things for him.

 

Beat your children if they act up.

 

Kill people if they work on Sunday--even if they are gathering firewood to build a fire so as not to freeze to death.

 

Beat your slaves, but don't kill them.

 

If a woman gets pregnant through rape, she must marry her rapist.

 

On and on.

 

Fast forward some more.

 

A census is ordered (for which there is no evidence) that requires all people to return to the place of their birth--thereby negating the point of a census, but that is another story...

 

Jesus is born in Bethlehem. Magicians come and pay homage.

 

Mary, Jesus' mom, is a virgin. Modern genetics tell us that Jesus would have to be female in such a case (beyond it being impossible) and would be a clone of Mary, but it turns out God got her pregnant (this gets important later).

 

Jesus is suddenly 33 years old. He says some good things, cures blindness, casts out demons (why no demons anymore?), and walks on water. He does two shows on Sunday, just like in Vegas (ok, I made that up).

 

The authorities are not pleased, have Jesus arrested, and sentence him to death. He is taken to a nearby hill and nailed to a cross.

 

At this moment, according to Matthew, the dead rise from a nearby cemetery and walk through town. No mention is given as to their desire for brains or their incessant moaning, or how to destroy them.

 

Jesus is dead for either a day and a night, two nights and one day, or three days and three nights depending on which Gospel you read.

 

Mary Magdelene, Thomas, or Jesus' mom are first to see him, depending which Gospel you choose to read.

 

According to Matthew, still more dead rise formthe grave and wander into town. There is no record of this incredible event outside of Matthew. Later, this is dramatized in "Night of the Living Dead" in the early 70s.

 

We are now taught that there is a Hell, and if one doesn't believe in all of this, you go there when you die, because god loves you. He'll save you, but you have to think the right way. Your behavior while alive is irrelevant, which is counter-inutitive and deemed immoral by human justice (but humans are imperfect, obviously).

 

The Doctrine of the Trinity is established. What this means is that there is God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. There are three of them, but they are all the same person.

 

This means that Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit empregnated his own mother, then had to sacrifice himself TO himself to suspend rules he created himself. If you don't believe that, you will enjoy eternal torment forever.

 

Jesus goes up to Heaven, body and all. He is there waiting, and will be back any second. It's been 2,000 years and not a peep from him, but rest assured he is coming any second.

 

He will "vanish" all of the people who believe in him now, and they go to Heaven immediately. Jesus destroys his enemies using magical powers, and vanquishes Satan.

 

Oh--Satan is a being whose sole reason for existing is to tormant humans, even though he has magical powers and can do ALMOST everything god can do. Accepting the idea that you are so important that such a being is directly after you is HUMBLE and rewarded by the Lord.

 

I could go on, but that is the gist of it. To anyone with basic eading skill, the Genesis story is obviously made up by men who knew next to nothing about how Nature works, and needed some sort of explanation for all they saw. I doubt even they thought it was literally true.

 

BUt here in the 21st century, people do. And they are so serious about it they want to teach all children this as true, even the children of Buddhist, Hindu, Jainist, and atheist parents.

 

I am sure there are some believers out there who discard parts of the above in favor of a more moderate view, but that is silly really. Genesis HAS to be true or there is no reason for Jesus.

 

Oh--god punishes sin through storms and earthquakes and such, but he kills indiscriminately in such cases. Therefore we must not allow others to sin, since those peole get all of us in trouble, and we can't have that. hence "blue laws" that are moronic and immoral themselves.

 

All of the above led me to atheism as well.

[Trialbyfire]

So how did Noah and his family manage to repopulate the Earth without inbreeding? I'm just saying...

[lovelorcet]

In reading the more recent posts, I am surprised that nobody has mentioned the biggest reason of all (at least for me) that leads to atheism: Religions are stupid.

 

Yeah, you read that right, STUPID.

 

 

I completely agree.