Question for Atheists and those who do NOT believe in God...

[lonelybird]

JamesM

 

Can you understand why in Jesus time, people crucified him? and percecuted his followers? I think this answer is same as the answer you asked

[JamesM]

 

Disagreeing with my style and choice of adjectives is fine, but a simple "gee whiz, that was blunt!" would have sufficed. And now we are talking about what formthe responses must take.

 

I'll tell you what: from now on I will PM you my posts, and then you can edit them to your satisfaction.

 

You are right. I guess I over reacted to your response. You may not believe it, but...I actually had no problem with your comments about religion. I know your opinions and respect them as such. Nothing what you say really surprises me. You articulate your beliefs better than most atheists I have ever met. You have the ability to bring up many things that make us think. I have been impressed time and again at how well you do this.

 

 

Why did I respond to your post and others? My biggest fear when I started this thread was that if someone who opposed the comments written, in answer to my questions, then the thread would be off topic. And I really do want to hear WHY people have chosen not to believe in a God. And the one question I really wanted answered is what would make you believe in a God. As you said, I too am afraid that someone will begin saying why you cannot believe as you do or go off topic.

 

So, like with Moose and you, I am probably overreacting. Now I will take my own advice...and sit back and read the responses.

 

Again, my apologies...absit invidia

 

I'll tell you what: from now on I will PM you my posts, and then you can edit them to your satisfaction.

 

Oh man! would I love THAT! Moai's post count drops to zero for some odd reason.

[This_Too_Shall_Pass]

I would actually state that differently: The human mind operates on a more abstract plane, influencing the spirit.

 

That is definitely a good way of putting it.

 

I was trying to separate "God" from "Universe", that's why I said what I did.

 

But it's true, it's all in the mysterious way the mind works.

[This_Too_Shall_Pass]

As for evidence that would convince me of a diety:

.....

 

..

When the law of entropy is repealed.

 

 

You really won't settle for anything less, would you?

[Moai]

JamesM

 

Can you understand why in Jesus time, people crucified him? and percecuted his followers? I think this answer is same as the answer you asked

 

FYI, Jesus was crucified by religious people.

 

Notice that it isn't just Jesus who was persecuted for being different--if in fact that is why Jesus was crucified....His followers have done a good job of persecuting people, or have you forgotten that?

 

Jesus HAD to be crucified in order to save you. You are just as sinful as everyone else, right? His crucifixion is just as necessary because of you as it is because of me.

 

You claim that god is love and that you love everyone and that god is so great and just, but those of us without your particular meme structure (trying to be nice) can see it for what it is. I also think that it makes you feel so righteous and true to experience persecution, even though you aren't experiencing any at all.

 

Christians are the only people on the planet who feel persecuted when they aren't allowed to force others to believe the way they do. Well, maybe Muslims also....

[Moai]

Oh man! would I love THAT! Moai's post count drops to zero for some odd reason.

 

Ha! No apologies required, man. I didn't mean that last crack of mine to sound mean, but I just reread it and it seemed a little harsh. Sorry! It was a lame joke.

[burning 4 revenge]

According to the Romans there were some early sects of Christianity that took cannibalism quite literally

[popey]

JamesM

 

Can you understand why in Jesus time, people crucified him? and percecuted his followers? I think this answer is same as the answer you asked

 

Yes, because he was the front man of a political movement that challenged the powers of the time.

 

Here's an analogy that occurrs to me. My read on some history is that when Thomas Jefferson was trying to make a positive change in his world, he had to put forth an embrace of Christianity he did not truly believe should be incorporated into the governmental idea of freedom he espoused, but if he didn't nothing he was striving for would get adopted in his time. I theorize that this may be the case with Jesus. Much of what we've been taught Jesus himself professed was good policy to me. Maybe he was just an astitute politician and great man, willing to take what had to come his way to get people to change to embrace the global humanitarianism that he was trying to spread. All the judgmental bs, and separatism that christianity has taken on does not jive with what we have documented as "Jesus'" teachings. That stuff came after.

 

Call me crazy, and I'm sure plenty would/will on this subject; but maybe Jesus said, "ok- clearly if I want people to really buy into the serious change I'm trying to achieve here; at this point in time, I'll have to convince them I'm GOD.... ok, ok. maybe that's too much. God AND man. God's son lets say. Oh crap, born a love child? they'll never listen. Ok mom, you saw and angel, blah blah blah, immaculate conception. yea, that works even better. sweet. John, get your mom to back the story up. perfect." MESSIAH.

 

naturally I'm being funny (to me anyway) but the thought seriously is plausible to me. Political movement. Politicians always need to appeal to that which moves the populous.

[popey]

P.S. who wants to bet on what occurrs more on this thread? poor JamesM trying to reign us back in to the intention of the thread? or lonelybird promising to stop posting? lol

[burning 4 revenge]

What always astounds me is how even atheists come to the defense of Jesus and try and blame all of the horrific aspects of Christianity on people that "came after".

 

I don't agree. I think the reality is that he was little different than the types of zealous religious holymen you see in the middle east to this day. He probably was little different than some of the Islamic clerics we find totally insane in light of our culture. He was an apocalyptic prophet who threatened people with eternal damnation and probably practiced magic. I'm sure he was smart, but I'm not so sure he was wise. I think many people would be shocked, myself included, to see what the real Jesus was like.

[popey]

good point, the damnation thing was not one of my favs. But I don't know if I can criticize considering the mindset and the times (this is still under my previous premise that the motivation was social reform of course.)

 

If I were going to give it my best to try to move masses for the better, and KNEW I just couldn't achieve much at all w/o something drastic, idk.

 

guess, that should be another post though.

[burning 4 revenge]

good point, the damnation thing was not one of my favs. But I don't know if I can criticize considering the mindset and the times (this is still under my previous premise that the motivation was social reform of course.)

 

If I were going to give it my best to try to move masses for the better, and KNEW I just couldn't achieve much at all w/o something drastic, idk.

 

guess, that should be another post though.

Thats assuming he was a social reformer and I'm not convinced of this, but we'll never know

[Herzen]

You really won't settle for anything less, would you?

 

Not here, not now, never.

[Aintayankee]

Intense battling goin on.

[Moai]

It is reaching the point where I think there is nothing to debate.

 

Theology is an absolute waste of time: Let's start with a premise that is unknowable, and then spend our lives trying to figure out what this unknowable entity wants and really means.

 

Is the Bible true? No. This is demonstrable fact. Not only does it contain historical errors, it is not even internally consistent. Many now claim it is, but there are volumes written by believers who acknowledge this fact and try to explain it away. This has been going on for ove 2.000 years now.

 

The Qur'an isn't true, either, obviously.

 

Yet people go on and on and on about what happens when you die, or what the Bible says about things that no human could possibly know about, as if guessing and then extrapolating means anything.

 

Well, it doesn't.

 

I have decided to devote my life to studying leprechauns, what they want, what they require, and how we can make them happy.

 

Would I be wasting my time?

 

Read some posts from beleivers. Not only do they assert things they could not possibly know about, they deny things that are demonstrably true by any objective standard.

 

Why bother? To enter into a discussion is to give them credibility where they have none.

 

Your god is imaginary. Everyone knows it. Show that there is something to discuss, otherwise, it would be better if you just shut up andlet us get on with figuring out how the wrld works. Sheesh.

[shadowofman]

What led you to believe that there is no God? What were the steps of your journey to atheism/agnosticism/etc.?

I believe that there almost certainly is no god. That is not to say that I believe there is no god, just almost certainly. I am a strong atheist in regards to all known human religions, that is to say that I believe there is no Jahova, Allah, Thor, etc. And if you define god as a supernatural being, your just silly. There is no such thing as supernatural, only natural. If there is anything that could be mistaken for a god, it would be completely natural. Maybe an advanced alien that appears to have wonderful powers.

I was born an agnostic. I was gullible enough as a child to believe in Santa and God. I eventually abandoned all such nonsense by age by age 12. I was not raised in an overly religious nightmare, nor an atheist home. Just born gullible with a healthy skeptic's wonder.

 

 

What evidence would you need...or what evidence would be convincing enough so that you finally said..."There really is a God."

Obviously, personal experience.

Well, for me the question would be, at what point would I believe my personal experience. I'm a fan of hallucinations. I have experienced them, and I understand how easy it is to do so. If god visited me in my bedroom and I saw him. And I heard him. And I had no lasting proof of his being there. And no witnesses to testify that I had seen what I had seen. I wouldn't believe my own experiences. I would need something extraordinary to make me believe it was real. God could show himself to a great population of people in one little visit. If I saw the president shake his hand on the news, I'd believe in him.

I still doubt that I would worship him. He has a lot of explaining to do.

[HokeyReligions]

First question...

What led you to believe that there is no God? What were the steps of your journey to atheism/agnosticism/etc.? And since I know that part of the answer will include "no evidence," did you arrive at your conclusions because of lack of evidence, rejection of childhood upbringing (ie brought up in a religious home), because of childhood upbringing (ie no church background), due to hypocrisy of those who believed in a God, and many more possibilities? Your answer can convey most of that without divulging personal details, I think.

1) Everything that I was taught in school was in direct contrast to what I was taught at home and in various churches. The way it was taught was like the "immovable object and the unstoppable force" They couldn't coexist as they were taught. I was told by my mother that what she taught me and what the church taught me must come first and that I was to ignore what the school was teaching me in regards to "the beginning"

 

2) how was I to trust anything the school taught me if I could not trust this aspect. Was 2 + 2 REALLY 4? When "new math" (which to most of you isn't new at all!) came along that reinforced my doubts about everything I was being taught.

 

3) When I had my 'near death' experience a few years ago - I felt like I left my body and was floating overhead. I could see and hear the doctors and nurses and when my husband came into the ER I sort of whooshed back into my body. While "out" it was hazy-white and totally peaceful. I could very easily have intrepreted that the way the believers do and allowed myself to "feel God" and I almost did. I didn't want to 'go back' because I knew by what they were doing to me that it would hurt. But somewhere, even in that state of mind, I knew that it was chemical / electrical firings in my brain. That many people in trauma seemd to 'go away' for a while because they can't deal with the physical. It didn't feel Godly to me.

 

 

 

What evidence would you need...or what evidence would be convincing enough so that you finally said..."There really is a God." Here, I ask only that you refrain from making too many sarcastic remarks and disrespectful comments that would cause those who disagree to retort with posts that are off topic. My objective will not be to present you with that evidence. It is simply a matter of curiosity.

When I die that I know I'm dead and I meet God or Jesus and they tell me I'm screwed. If I see my mom and kids, and husband, and other loved ones - my dogs and cats and other animals, living in peace and love with God. Totally happy and content. Then I'll know mom was right and I was wrong and as long as I know they are OK I'll be able to stand whatever Hell there is. (well, unless its full of bugs - then I will lose my mind/soul totally)

 

I used to believe in God and Heaven ONLY because I was so terrified of the alternative - hell full of bugs and fire. But I realized that if others were right and God does exist then I asked myself Would God want someone to believe in Him only because of fear? Should'nt it be for love OF God? and I realized I was screwed anyway! I can bluff a lot of people, but if there is a real God I doubt if I could fool it.

 

This brings up another question. If God is God and not man or woman, what gender-neutral term do we use other than "it"? Men who wrote about their Gods did so from a society standpoint that Man was somehow better, stronger, leader and women were his followers. I don't subscribe to that social viewpoint.

[Trimmer]

James: I'm sorry I missed responding to this thread earlier.

 

First question...

What led you to believe that there is no God? What were the steps of your journey to atheism/agnosticism/etc.?

As Moai alluded to earlier, it wasn't some kind of "de-conversion" or even a journey, really. It was just an absence of theism - atheism - in my life. Once I got old enough to think for myself, I found all the explanation I needed to explain the physical world from science, and my views on ethics, morality and social interactions came from laws, family, school, community, peers, etc. (And I don't miss the irony, and I do acknowledge that religious teachings have formed the basis of much of our laws and societal views on morality, etc. That is not evidence to me, however, that God exists...)

 

My opinion of religion in general is bolstered by a view across all religions, and my belief that they are mechanisms created by human beings which satisfy certain very human needs: to comfort ourselves when facing the unknown and the traumatic (including death), to explain our reasons for "being", to provide social and moral guidelines for life in a society full of others like us.

 

Further informing my belief is my perception that everything within religion is consistent with creations of human beings - sometimes wise, thoughtful, philosophical and well-intentioned, and sometimes otherwise - but always human. Nothing in the recorded history of any religion shows sophistication, insight, or vision into the unknown beyond that available to the smartest human thinkers of the period.

 

We all pretty much think these same things of the other various religions out there - those religions other than ours. Heck, don't we all refer to the spiritual beliefs of the ancient Greeks as "mythology?" A cute bunch of stories, but boy, can you believe the stuff those silly folks came up with to explain their world?

 

This is probabaly a way over-used sentiment - and not one I invented - but it still wraps this up well. In the end, we're not really all that different. I just reject one more god than you do...

 

I wasn't meaning to start a debate with the above, but my feelings about religions and their utter humanity all feed into my belief that there is no God as represented by any of the religions of our world.

 

What evidence would you need...or what evidence would be convincing enough so that you finally said..."There really is a God."

Something that could not be explained by human activity (like a nice group of people putting up a house for a family in need, or a soldier jumping on a grenade to save buddies; astounding, amazing feats, to be sure, but I don't need to invoke a God to make them possible), could not be explained by human nature (hallucinations and hearing voices experienced by a single person, depending on the context, can be considered signs of mental illness; we know this does happen to people...), or could not be explained by the the observable, measurable 'laws' of science and nature that we are adding to every day.

 

Stop all fusion processes in the sun for 10 seconds tomorrow at noon, Pacific Daylight Time. An all powerful diety would have no problem accomplishing this, including handling all the attendant details like keeping the mass of the sun from beginning to collapse under the influence of its own gravity for that short period (while the thermal and radiation pressures drop off momentarily.)

 

There are plenty of examples of things in nature we have a sufficiently good handle on for a diety to provide a concrete, unambiguous demonstration of His presence, by turning things on their head for a bit, then returning them to normal.

 

Incidentally, I might note that I realized after the fact that the "sun going out" example above is probably just what used to freak out the ancients when a solar eclipse would happen. And I'm sure they told stories about the Gods anger, or warnings, or test of faith...

 

A Postscript: I realize that the "Big Bang," in which I believe, may be presented as a singular event (in cosmology, literally a "singularity") without definable physical explanation. I accept this point, but reply that it is little different than accepting the creation of God without explanation, except of course, we have compelling evidence that the Big Bang really did happen. If you avoid that inconvenience by self-defining God as having no beginning, then I have no problem self-defining the universe the same way - "our" Big Bang may just have been the beginning of the latest cycle of rebirth following the last "Big Crunch" of our universe collapsing on itself.

[JamesM]

Excellent and well thought out response, Trimmer.

 

I have to say that I enjoy reading your responses on the Spirituality Board. You have a way of making your point while at the same time showing respect for those who have a differing viewpoint. And I admit that for many here...including myself, this is very difficult to do. You are one of the few who can do it consistently.

 

Keep posting here. I appreciate your input.

[Sean0775]

Ah the religion debate...

 

I consider myself Agnostic. I don't feel any religion can be true because man has put his hands all over every religion in existence. Any religious text you can get ahold of has been written by man, and that leaves room for alterations, mistranslations, and a host of other things that can skew the message. I don't have a problem with the concept of a Supreme Being, but unless said Being shows him/herself, I cannot believe in it as the only proof is in documents written by man.

 

I have heard religion condemned as evil before, but most of the arguments from that side of the fence are based on various wars that have happened through the ages. While religion may be part of the reason for war, people have been hating and killing each other based on the color of their skin or where they're from for just as long. As long as man is tied in to proving the existence of a Supreme Being, there can never be true proof because man will twist the truth to suit his own needs.

 

I stopped believing when I came to this realization.

[squeak]

First question...

What led you to believe that there is no God? What were the steps of your journey to atheism/agnosticism/etc.? And since I know that part of the answer will include "no evidence," did you arrive at your conclusions because of lack of evidence, rejection of childhood upbringing (ie brought up in a religious home), because of childhood upbringing (ie no church background), due to hypocrisy of those who believed in a God, and many more possibilities? Your answer can convey most of that without divulging personal details, I think.

 

 

me: When my best friend tod me about her father raping her when she was little, and she would pray and pray to make it stop. She would pray everyday that he would love her like she wanted, and it didn't happen. Her prayers were never answered. What kind of beneovelent God could bear to hear this precious child cry and hate herself and blame herself as she was mouth****#d and threatened?

 

 

What evidence would you need...or what evidence would be convincing enough so that you finally said..."There really is a God." Here, I ask only that you refrain from making too many sarcastic remarks and disrespectful comments that would cause those who disagree to retort with posts that are off topic. My objective will not be to present you with that evidence. It is simply a matter of curiosity.

 

me: All obvious evil would have to be erased.

It is not.

Therefore God is not here.

If God could idly stand by, what purpose does he serve? What can I tell my best friend about her prayers unanswered? God knows best? You should have been raped and mouth fu&*$D? What should I tell her? God had bigger plans so she was raped by dad? While mom pretended she did not know? Please......no one can answer that. God had larger plans you were not intended to understand?

[katiebour]

I came to agnosticism for several reasons. I was raised an Episcopalian by my step-grandmother; my father and step-mother did not attend, and my mother has tried on religion like hats through the years.

 

I liked church as a child- not the services or getting up early on a Sunday, but rather on Saturdays and before major holidays. My step-grandma was a deacon in the church, which meant that she was largely in charge of decorations and some kinds of maintenance. I remember scraping the bottoms of burned out votives out of their glass holders and replacing them with fresh ones before the statue of the Virgin Mary- I remember hanging the wind chimes in the church the day before Easter.

 

Some of the most beautiful moments in my life happened there:

 

Sitting in that tall, narrow church, with a high cathedral ceiling, sunlight dappling through the stained glass pictures of saints with haloes. Glass wind chimes hanging from black wrought-iron candlesticks a man-height tall, tinkling loudly in the silence of the empty church. The wooden cross with a detailed, crucified Jesus polished deeply brown, silent and majestic. The view from the upper balcony, where on Sundays a member of the congregation would sing long, flowing notes- an Amen floating for half a minute into the air. Or even a fully dressed, religious-themed Santa Claus throwing chocolate wrapped in gold foil to the greedy children on Christmas morning. Seeing the pieces of chocolate stuck in the statue Mary's headdress, visible only from the organ loft. Quiet afternoons with the simple white statue of Jesus, arms raised in welcome, holes in his plaster hands and flowers growing around his clay feet. The quiet patter of the water in the courtyard fountain- bringing our slip-n-slide on a Saturday, playing in the church playground, then lounging on the fountain in our bathing suits.

 

As a child all of these moments made church somehow seem magical and special- there were so many little things that I loved. Our priest never sermonized, each week it seemed was the same sing-song Mass, him chanting, almost, and everyone chanting back in unison. I really didn't know much about religion except all the stories from the Bible, which as an 8 year old I put in the same category as the rest of the fiction to which I was addicted. Although in all honesty the Bible was more boring than the fiction- I mean, an entire long chapter made up of "begats"?

 

It was the scenery and the hedonistically beautiful surroundings that I loved, not the substance. And ironically since my grandmother was the deacon I became the very instrument of those surroundings. I saw the closets where the priest hung his heavily embroidered robes in the sacristy- I cleaned the candles and helped to decorate. I had a sort of "behind the scenes" look at how religion was orchestrated, so to speak.

 

When I moved out of my father's house and into my mother's, I was not forced initally to go to church at all. My mother went sometimes, and I did too, but her churches were modern and lacking in decoration- I was bored and uninterested. When we moved to the Midwest she became a Mennonite, along with her newest husband, and I was forced repeatedly and against my will to attend church (which I despised) Sunday after Sunday. The church was plain, there was always a sermon instead of comforting routine, and people actually expected me to believe in God! I had no basis to believe and nothing in my experience had ever led me to a reason for faith.

 

On another note, I have had two "uncles" from before I was born, best friends of my father from his college days. Yes, these two uncles were a gay couple, and they had been in my life as beloved family members as long as I could remember. When my mother became a Mennonite she gay-bashed my uncles and called their lifestyle immoral... This became one of the main reasons for my rejecting Christianity. I love my uncles, and they loved each other, and I could not then and do not now see why two adults loving each other fully and consensually could ever be considered wrong.

 

One of my uncles contracted HIV during a tough period in their relationship and he passed away in the early 90's, when I was in my early teens. My other uncle, thankfully, escaped being infected and has since found love again. They live happily in the Southwest and are successful, monogamous, caring, wonderful, intelligent people. I love them very much. I reject any religion which says that what they have together is wrong. Period.

 

Lastly, I have always been a bookworm and a geek, and I always look for explanations and proof. I have never seen scientific proof of God, and of course you can't prove a negative. One of the biggest questions for me has always been:

 

If God used the Big Bang as an instrument to create the universe, then where did God come from? Was God created? Who created It? What existed before the universe? I have never found any kind of satisfactory answer to this question. How can something come from nothing?

 

There could be a God, if God is/was merely a creative force. I have no evidence other than what man has created (which in my mind is tainted evidence) that God is directly involved in our lives. I believe that there must have been an original Creative Force- a geminal spark, something... But whether that force still exists, or has any power other than setting off the original chain reaction I have no idea.

 

Eeeek this is getting long. But I still have so much to say! You've hit on one of my favorite topics to ponder

 

The real answer is I Don't Know. And thus I am agnostic.

 

What would it take to prove the existence of God to me? Honestly, I don't think it CAN be proven to me.

 

Saved from death? Winning the lottery? Coincidence. Visions or voices? Hallucination and/or insanity. Mass visions? Mass hysteria. The Rapture/The Second Coming? Well how do I know that everything that happens in this world is not simply a figment of my imagination anyway? How do I know if it or anything is real? It's like Plato's Allegory of the Cave: Is what I'm seeing real, or just a shadow on the wall of the cave to which I've been chained my whole life?

 

Again, I Don't Know.

 

Was Jesus a prophet? Was he the Son of God? Was he simply insane? Did he even exist? Was he a politician, a radical? How can you prove any of this?

 

I have so many questions, none of which are answerable!

[Topper]

Katie, you should write a book.

 

My own spiritual Journey isn't much different then what some others here have already written.

If anything has turned me from the Belief in The God of Moses and Jesus it is reading the Bible.