Would you destroy another person's life?

[HykoCepkinFn]

Man i'm telling you its not worth it. It just makes you a terrible person. When you started dating her did u think u would never break up? It's not her fault i'm sure she didn't want to hurt you. It will be unfair if you did that to her. If she didn't love you than she wouldnt be with you for 9 years. Look for the mistakes in yourself and see what u did wrong. Dont always blame the other person. Put urself in her situation and see how you feel.

[Trimmer]

We both made choices and I'm trying to rectify my actions... which is to become the person I used to be. I cannot do that if I merely walked away without fighting back. I'd guess that you're totally unfamiliar with the concept though.

What "concept" are you talking about here? The idea of walking away from a failed relationship in which I accept my part of the responsibility and yet also one in which my partner unilaterally cheated and deceived me, and in which I felt brutally betrayed? That "concept" I am familiar with.

 

Or are you talking about the "concept" of being the person you "used to be?" Interestingly, I think I may be somewhat familiar with that person too:

I used to be someone that would abhor this type of thing....

I guess that, even being through what sounds like a similar type of failed relationship, with deceit and betrayal running through it, I still am that person.

 

I would tell the next girl I would get involved with, this story. If she chose to leave for it, obviously she isn't the right girl for me.

I think this is a very good idea. I agree with you on this one.

[lindya]

Is it really such an alien concept for someone to believe something is right and act accordingly for some people. It has to be about revenge or anger or wanting to lash out, right?

 

Regarding retribution that will cause another person serious distress and unhappines? Yes, that is an alien concept to me. The desire for revenge or some kind of karmic retribution isn't alien to me - but the idea that that such a desire is dissociated from anger is.

 

What do you do? You don't accept it by walking away, that's what you do. I think we disagree on what walking away accomplishes. I see it as accepting the situation... but it's probably influenced by feeling wronged. If I didn't feel slighted, walking away would probably, just be walking away.

 

You said that me walking away from someone who lied to me and hurt me really badly, at a time when I was particularly vulnerable, demonstrates acceptance. In a sense that's right. I'm not accepting the behaviour as right, honourable and other positive things. I am accepting that the sense of that cherishing and protectiveness that people feel about those they love had been faked by him, and it only took me to hit a real crisis in my life for that to become apparent.

 

The lack of caring, and the horrible behaviour that stemmed from it when I suddenly became too vulnerable and isolated to deal with that behaviour the way I normally would, was something I wasn't capable of altering about that person. What does not accepting a situation like that mean? Not accepting that it's real and unchangeable? Not accepting that some wrongs, once committed, can't be put corrected by any amount of retributive "justice"? Not accepting that a person's actions brought you great pain and unhappiness, and that there's no way of reversing that - regardless of how much you try to punish the person?

 

The bit about wanting that person to feel some of what I felt as a result of their behaviour...sure. I remember a friend asking "you don't wish ill on him though....? You're far too good a person for that." I said "yes, I do wish ill on him." I can remember the friend looking shocked, and I couldn't figure out why. Why wouldn't I wish ill on someone who'd caused so much pain and who refused to feel remotely guilty for doing so? Why should they be allowed to be happy? Them being in pain would be justice, and I value the concept of justice as much as anyone else. I don't see the point of lying about stuff like that just to preserve someone else' idealistic visions of who I am.

 

So the dark, angry parts of me did wish him ill, but I know that if ill actually befell him I'd undoubtedly feel pain for that person who once meant so much to me. It wouldn't bring me peace.

 

 

If you could interview any one of the most evil historical figures, you'd probably find that they were absolutely adamant that their enemies' actions merited the brand of "justice" or solutions they meted out. You'd be hard pressed to find any evidence of them having a shred of empathy for their victims. Wicked individuals pride themselves on their lack of empathy - as though it's a sign of strong character rather than of gravely flawed character. Those people simply can't be trusted to adminster proportionate justice to those who they consider enemies or are prejudiced against, because they lack the ability to temper justice with mercy.

 

The fact that you are so fixed in this belief that you were in a position to act as judge, jury and executioner to this woman is frightening. You've justified to yourself the fact that you kept her money. You admit that "morally" it might be wrong, but it's not hard for you to justify having done it. If someone did that to you, based on what you've said here you'd probably inflict some terrible harm on them as a punishment....yet it's not at all hard for you to justify you taking that kind of action.

 

I think, as sb129 suggested, you seem like a walking cliche of narcissism. You've even used the classic line about psychiatrists and psychologists probably not being capable of evaluating you. You've got grandiose ideas about being justified in, and capable of, inflicting proportionate retribution on your enemies. You talk about destroying the life of someone you claim you once loved - demonstrating that you haven't the first clue of what it really means to genuinely love another person as opposed to simply wanting to possess and control them....or see a grand image of yourself reflected in their eyes.

 

You've no empathy for this woman or the damage you've brought into her life. You explain that the lack of empathy is based on her lack of empathy for you...as though empathy is something you control and measure out, rather than just a natural human instinct that knows no rules about who's entitled to it and who isn't.

[Darkzen]

VIP: Maybe you should not speak for everyone, unless you really believe that a handful of people that are vocal and share your outlook, is a total representation of the world.

 

Maybe you should also not take part in a discussion if you see no point to it. I used logic to explain why I wouldn't kill a dog, because someone thought that I would... how else would I explain my feelings on the subject? I guess I could have used empathy through the internet, but that'd be a little absurd, don't you think?

 

I have a lot of compassion btw, just not for evil doers. Logic helps me determine the line, because without a line, we as humans couldn't survive in the world. Let me guess, you don't feel killing is acceptable with a good reason? Do you eat meat? What makes you the lord of determining what's right and wrong? If you say society, I can show you numerous examples of double standards. If they can justify their actions as they please, why am I bad if I do the same... I'm merely following their lead, right?

 

Ladyjane14: God is a theory with no scientific proof to back it up. Please leave him out of it. Nor are courts the only ones to deal out retribution.

 

As for not turning her in earlier, I gave her the benefit of the doubt. I also had my own selfish reasons, not going to lie. Once she changed into an evil person in my eyes, those doubts and selfish reasons were no more. Hence the change of heart. Besides, some actions aren't necessarily evil if the intent isn't malicious. Since I consider her evil now, I consider all her actions, as done with malicious intent. Including past transgressions.

 

I follow my logic, just as you follow your logic. There's no universal standard for logic. You may believe I'm not listening or trying to understand, but that's probably because your arguments have many holes. Give me something irrefutable and I bet it'd change my outlook. That's the point of debate. You use feelings/emotions as the basis of your argument, I use logic/reasoning. You explain your feelings, I explain my conclusions. You ignore my questions, I answer everyone's questions... so who here, is the one not wanting to look, in the mirror?

 

mental_traveller: I believe that immoral actions aren't right regardless of the legality, but I also believe that breaking morality is acceptable in combating evil doers. This isn't a new concept to society, we do it every day. We kill in the name of justice and a good portion of society sees it as heroic.

 

She's stolen much money from me over the course of nine years, she entered a relationship (a verbal contract) under false pretenses. Is that not the same as stealing? I spent much money on a lie of a relationship. So if we want to take that approach, she still owes me. She breached the contract and should pay reparations, is that unfair to you? I wouldn't have spent money on her if she didn't deceive me (I'm talking about everything over my own costs of living).

 

sb129: I guess that's the difference than. She couldn't give me a logic answer. I told her to take some time and think it over, then put her feelings into words. I wanted her to validate her accusations, she refused (because, I believe, she couldn't). If you're so convicted in your belief, to leave a nine year relationship, you should know the F-ing reason well enough to tell the other person IMHO. When I told her to leave, I fully explained my reasons, it's only fair.

 

HykoCepkinFn: If she didn't want to hurt me, she'd have attempted to make her actions right. If I killed someone in a car accident (my fault,not theirs), I would be damn sure, that I'd do whatever I could, to make amends.

 

As for blame, I accept mine and try my best to make things right.

 

Trimmer: Your right, I used the wrong words. I still abhor those traits, yet I do also believe that with the right justification, immoral actions are validated.

 

The concept of standing up against bad people, rather than accepting (which in my mind is allowing) bad people to do bad things. I will not live my life constantly looking over my shoulder in fear of bad people, is that really living?

 

I don't think you're evil at all.

 

You will not see my point about revenge, so I will leave it at that.

 

Can ask, you keep repeating that you wanted your ex to be "accountable" for her actions and to make things better (that while she had a chance to do this, she chose not to).

 

From what I understand, you were in a 9 year relationship with her. She cheated on your (3 times) and lied about things to a point where some of your friends turned against you. Then, she broke up with you over the phone (or something like that).

 

So tell me, what is it that she could've done that would've satisfied your need for accountability?

 

An attempt for her to at least try and make things right (I.E. fair at the minimum). She didn't even want to try. I was looking for a sense of fairness. Her unjustified refusal, shows me she has no remorse and hence is really an evil person (not a confused person). I stayed around as long as I did, in the hopes of her figuring herself out and being that person I first met. For that I take responsibility of having to deal with the heart-break, the dashing of my hope and emotional pain. All her actions, she should be accountable for... this is where most of us see a difference in opinions... she refused, so in the name of fairness, should I also not take any responsibility? I have two options, A) accept the world is unfair (believe that it's ok to be walked on, because things are beyond my control) or B) Do not accept the world is unfair (strive to make things fair, at the least, the things that I do have control over).

 

I refuse to believe feeling apathy or "it happens" is right. I see it as a cowardly approach to the world. I also believe, that if more people didn't take this approach, the world would be a better place.

[Darkzen]

Regarding retribution that will cause another person serious distress and unhappines? Yes, that is an alien concept to me. The desire for revenge or some kind of karmic retribution isn't alien to me - but the idea that that such a desire is dissociated from anger is.

I admitted that anger is the base emotion of the concept. I never claimed that it isn't a part of the equation, merely that it wasn't the controlling part of the equation.

 

You said that me walking away from someone who lied to me and hurt me really badly, at a time when I was particularly vulnerable, demonstrates acceptance. In a sense that's right. I'm not accepting the behaviour as right, honourable and other positive things. I am accepting that the sense of that cherishing and protectiveness that people feel about those they love had been faked by him, and it only took me to hit a real crisis in my life for that to become apparent.

 

I disagree. I see your inaction as speaking volumes. I understand your reasoning, don't get me wrong, but at the same time I don't agree. For example, I'll use WWII. Let's say we had seen the evil actions of WWII and emotionally we felt bad for the people suffering. Although, what if we believed that it's wrong to hurt people, but we just accepted that they were bad people. That's my reasoning, on why I disagree.

 

The lack of caring, and the horrible behaviour that stemmed from it when I suddenly became too vulnerable and isolated to deal with that behaviour the way I normally would, was something I wasn't capable of altering about that person. What does not accepting a situation like that mean? Not accepting that it's real and unchangeable? Not accepting that some wrongs, once committed, can't be put corrected by any amount of retributive "justice"? Not accepting that a person's actions brought you great pain and unhappiness, and that there's no way of reversing that - regardless of how much you try to punish the person?

 

I'm not trying to change the situation or make believe it never happened. I accept that it happened, but I do not accept that it's right to let injustice go unpunished.

 

The bit about wanting that person to feel some of what I felt as a result of their behaviour...sure. I remember a friend asking "you don't wish ill on him though....? You're far too good a person for that." I said "yes, I do wish ill on him." I can remember the friend looking shocked, and I couldn't figure out why. Why wouldn't I wish ill on someone who'd caused so much pain and who refused to feel remotely guilty for doing so? Why should they be allowed to be happy? Them being in pain would be justice, and I value the concept of justice as much as anyone else. I don't see the point of lying about stuff like that just to preserve someone else' idealistic visions of who I am.

 

I understand where you're coming form. In a perfect fantasy, I'd hope that she'd see the wrong and change her ways... that is a fantasy though. Just as in a perfect fantasy, there would be world peace and no crime. Unfortunately, we live in reality and evil deeds merit punishment. Otherwise, that behavior goes by unchecked and unbalanced.

 

So the dark, angry parts of me did wish him ill, but I know that if ill actually befell him I'd undoubtedly feel pain for that person who once meant so much to me. It wouldn't bring me peace.

 

That's the difference here, I guess I was in love with an illusion. Now that the illusion has been lifted, I will not feel any remorse for punishing those actions. They had to make conscious decisions to perform these actions, I didn't deserve to be treated that... there was no validation and the excuses finally ran out.

 

If you could interview any one of the most evil historical figures, you'd probably find that they were absolutely adamant that their enemies' actions merited the brand of "justice" or solutions they meted out. You'd be hard pressed to find any evidence of them having a shred of empathy for their victims. Wicked individuals pride themselves on their lack of empathy - as though it's a sign of strong character rather than of gravely flawed character. Those people simply can't be trusted to adminster proportionate justice to those who they consider enemies or are prejudiced against, because they lack the ability to temper justice with mercy.

 

I agree with you on this. Although that's the way of things. We all have prejudice and it influences us. I won't argue that, hell, I firmly believe that history is written by the victors. Perspective is what matters... justice is blind though (the concept, not the system). It's about balance, not whose right and wrong. Starting to see where I'm coming from yet? I needed the situation to be balanced, I gave her the chance to do it of her own choice... she refused.

 

The fact that you are so fixed in this belief that you were in a position to act as judge, jury and executioner to this woman is frightening. You've justified to yourself the fact that you kept her money. You admit that "morally" it might be wrong, but it's not hard for you to justify having done it. If someone did that to you, based on what you've said here you'd probably inflict some terrible harm on them as a punishment....yet it's not at all hard for you to justify you taking that kind of action.

 

It's frightening to you, because you're using prejudice to influence your perspective. You believe I'm doing these things to get pay back, I'm doing it to feel reckoning. To feel that things are now equal and all debts are paid. How can I move on without feeling like a coward and that I'm accepting of evil actions?

 

At first I felt bad about taking the money. But after further discussion, I have no qualms any more. I now feel that she didn't live up to her end of an agreement. If I were to do the math, I'm sure that reparations would be much more over the course of nine years. Also, when I told her I was taking the money, she put up a fight... until I explained my reasoning, then she backed off and accepted it. So either she feels I'm justified or just doesn't want to deal with it.

 

I think, as sb129 suggested, you seem like a walking cliche of narcissism. You've even used the classic line about psychiatrists and psychologists probably not being capable of evaluating you. You've got grandiose ideas about being justified in, and capable of, inflicting proportionate retribution on your enemies. You talk about destroying the life of someone you claim you once loved - demonstrating that you haven't the first clue of what it really means to genuinely love another person as opposed to simply wanting to possess and control them....or see a grand image of yourself reflected in their eyes.

 

Being sure of yourself and having conviction, might seem like narcissism. I made that comment, because I haven't met many people with similar views and an overall feeling of incompetence in the medial field as a whole. Why are my ideas grandiose? Maybe I will succeed where others have failed. I'm sure many people throughout history gave up, before even trying, because of hearing the same exact thing. I'm also sure many who pushed onwards anyways, ended up failing as well. But some broke the limitations set by others but not believing the hype.

 

I understand love, quite well actually. I allowed it, to make me go against my better judgment, for nine years. I also realized that once the illusion was lifted by the recent circumstances that I loved an illusion. She isn't the person that I loved. So all the obligations that love dictate, no longer apply to her.

 

You've no empathy for this woman or the damage you've brought into her life. You explain that the lack of empathy is based on her lack of empathy for you...as though empathy is something you control and measure out, rather than just a natural human instinct that knows no rules about who's entitled to it and who isn't.

Correct. I have no empathy for people that I consider evil. I disagree, empathy is something that is controllable and measurable. It all depends on your perspective. You may feel empathy for a single mother struggling to get by... until you realize they brought all their problems onto themselves... then you may have less empathy or no empathy. Like I said, perspective.

 

I appreciate you posting. Very well written and you brought up a lot of questions to explore.

[Kasan]

Is it really such an alien concept for someone to believe something is right and act accordingly for some people. It has to be about revenge or anger or wanting to lash out, right?

 

Someone has to fight against injustice and I don't see anyone else doing it. Obviously, this makes me a "flaming sword of retribution", right? It makes me evil, for wanting people to be punished for their evil actions. It makes me crazy to believe that walking away is the coward's path. It makes me angry and want to lash out at those who have caused me pain... maybe, just maybe, I believe injustice is wrong and refuse to be a coward.

 

I really wonder what amazing things you could accomplish if you turned all the energy you have for punishing your ex to funneling your energy for a worthy cause. How many houses could you build for Habitat for Humanity? How many people could you feed at a soup kitchen? Could you become a Big Brother?

 

You are such a focused person....it seems to me that it's all about being right. Are your actions bringing you joy? Is this how you want to live your life?

 

Maybe it's time for a paradigm shift of thinking?

[Spinderella]

Correct. I have no empathy for people that I consider evil. I disagree, empathy is something that is controllable and measurable. It all depends on your perspective. You may feel empathy for a single mother struggling to get by... until you realize they brought all their problems onto themselves... then you may have less empathy or no empathy. Like I said, perspective.

 

I appreciate you posting. Very well written and you brought up a lot of questions to explore.

 

Did they bring all their problems onto themselves by getting into a bad relationship? Isnt this the same as what you did? Does that mean you brought your problems onto yourself?

[Ladyjane14]

Ladyjane14: God is a theory with no scientific proof to back it up. Please leave him out of it.

 

It's your opinion that God is a "theory", not mine. You can't MAKE me change my opinion and you can't MAKE me leave God out of my commentary.

 

As far as "science" is concerned, human understanding is incomplete as to what our place is in the universe. For all we know, our universe could be just a molecule in a hair on a wart on God's nose. I can't prove it is, but then again you can't prove it isn't.

 

Good self-esteem is important, it makes us healthier people. But in the grand scheme of things... I think it's important to remember that we are, each of us, very small and fleeting in comparison to the cosmos.

 

As for not turning her in earlier, I gave her the benefit of the doubt. I also had my own selfish reasons, not going to lie. Once she changed into an evil person in my eyes, those doubts and selfish reasons were no more. Hence the change of heart. Besides, some actions aren't necessarily evil if the intent isn't malicious. Since I consider her evil now, I consider all her actions, as done with malicious intent. Including past transgressions.

 

By your math, where malicious intent equals "evil"... you are now "evil" because your intent was certainly malicious.

 

THIS is the message that people have been trying to help you understand. When you let the mere circumstances of your life change you into a person that you didn't intend to be... you've given something of your true self away.

 

You committed yourself to an overt action designed to cause hurt, and you did it because YOU decided that your ex-girlfriend deserved to be hurt. THAT is now the person you are... a guy who hurts people based on his own flawed "logic".

 

I follow my logic, just as you follow your logic. There's no universal standard for logic.

 

As there is no standard for religion? As there is no standard for morality?

 

Sorry to bust your bubble there, Ace... but you're preaching to the choir on logic vs. emotion. And I say again, your logic is flawed because by your logic malicious intent equals evil, but by your actions that's just for OTHER PEOPLE as you apparently don't consider yourself to be an evil person.

 

Religious beliefs are based in faith. And morality is subjective. For me and for you... it's immoral to cheat on a romantic partner that you've made a commitment to. But there are others who do NOT embrace that view of morality, and we can't MAKE 'em. Unless they're breaking the law of the land, they can select whatever beliefs they like and thumb their noses at the world. That is their free will.

 

When we attempt to force our will onto others, we disrespect their right to choose for themselves. If it weren't for kidnapping laws, it wouldn't be much different if I were to put a bag over your head and drag you to church. You would, no doubt, continue to reject my theology, just as someone who doesn't share your views on morality will inevitably reject them. And even though this thought is lost on you, I'm gonna share it with you anyway....

Who are YOU to interfere with free will when even God, Himself, stays His hand?

 

Your ex-girlfriend is NOT bound by your subjective view of morality. Assertiveness would demand that you uphold your internal beliefs and be true to yourself, but unless you're a person who believes it's okay to actively hurt others, you've only just become what you formerly despised.

[sb129]

You've only just become what you formerly despised.

This, I think, sums it up beautifully.

 

 

Can you not see the hypocrisy in your statements and actions Darkzen?

 

Turning the other cheek may seem like "acceptance" and "weakness" to you, but to the majority of people on this thread, it is the more MORAL thing to do.

(Atheists and theists alike- we appear to be united on this one.)

[lindya]

She's stolen much money from me over the course of nine years, she entered a relationship (a verbal contract) under false pretenses. Is that not the same as stealing? I spent much money on a lie of a relationship. So if we want to take that approach, she still owes me. She breached the contract and should pay reparations, is that unfair to you? I wouldn't have spent money on her if she didn't deceive me (I'm talking about everything over my own costs of living).

 

Darkzen, please tell me the DAR part isn't short for Darren...

 

http://prdifferently.typepad.com/my_weblog/2006/07/how_not_to_act_.html

 

I appreciate you posting. Very well written and you brought up a lot of questions to explore.

 

Thank you. I only hope your exploration leads you to a less destructive path at some point. If I can ask one question....were it possible to turn back the clock, but retain whatever learning you might have obtained from this incident, would you repeat what you did?

[sb129]

OMG. That was soooooooo creepy. Lindya, thanks for that little hilarious exerpt.

 

Loved Joannes responses though. he kept telling her it was "her call"- she "called" to not pay! As if a courthouse would issue a summons for something so pathetic- or would they?

[VIP]

If you say society, I can show you numerous examples of double standards. If they can justify their actions as they please, why am I bad if I do the same... I'm merely following their lead, right?

 

So you admit to double standards in your behaviour and justifying your actions as you please. That's basically what you are doing.

 

This isn't a new concept to society, we do it every day. We kill in the name of justice and a good portion of society sees it as heroic.

 

A good portion of society is against killing in any shape or form.

 

If you're so convicted in your belief, to leave a nine year relationship, you should know the F-ing reason well enough to tell the other person IMHO.

 

Obviously there is no love anymore, and it's quite possible that she never loved you, judging by her behaviour. It hurts to recognize this after nine years of hoping for something different. But what other explanation do you need? Isn't that obvious enough?

 

I do also believe that with the right justification, immoral actions are validated.

 

Like you mentioned before, you have double standards and justify your actions as you please, so that means you can justify anything. So it follows from this that it's ok to be immoral in any situation, or in other words, you don't have any moral principles.

 

I have two options, A) accept the world is unfair (believe that it's ok to be walked on, because things are beyond my control) or B) Do not accept the world is unfair (strive to make things fair, at the least, the things that I do have control over).

 

Who did you help besides yourself? What good did you bring to the world?

 

I refuse to believe feeling apathy or "it happens" is right. I see it as a cowardly approach to the world.

 

There is no courage in your actions, actually you are a traitor in this situation (someone who betrays confidence or trust).

 

I also believe, that if more people didn't take this approach, the world would be a better place.

 

The world would be a better place if there was more love in it. That must be a completely alien concept to you.

[Darkzen]

I really wonder what amazing things you could accomplish if you turned all the energy you have for punishing your ex to funneling your energy for a worthy cause. How many houses could you build for Habitat for Humanity? How many people could you feed at a soup kitchen? Could you become a Big Brother?

 

You are such a focused person....it seems to me that it's all about being right. Are your actions bringing you joy? Is this how you want to live your life?

 

Maybe it's time for a paradigm shift of thinking?

My focus has shifted already. I no longer ponder her fate, nor would I even care.

 

It is all about being right. I do not experience joy for my actions against her and will continue living my life righteously... even if the morals and beliefs I uphold aren't the same as everyone else's.

 

It's your opinion that God is a "theory", not mine. You can't MAKE me change my opinion and you can't MAKE me leave God out of my commentary.

 

As far as "science" is concerned, human understanding is incomplete as to what our place is in the universe. For all we know, our universe could be just a molecule in a hair on a wart on God's nose. I can't prove it is, but then again you can't prove it isn't.

 

Good self-esteem is important, it makes us healthier people. But in the grand scheme of things... I think it's important to remember that we are, each of us, very small and fleeting in comparison to the cosmos.

Both views are technically theories, but so is everything... a theory is concept that hasn't been dis-proven. No theory can be proven, only dis-proven. Sorry to break it to you hun, but my opinion has a lot more evidence to support it than yours does, at this current point and time.

 

By your math, where malicious intent equals "evil"... you are now "evil" because your intent was certainly malicious.

 

THIS is the message that people have been trying to help you understand. When you let the mere circumstances of your life change you into a person that you didn't intend to be... you've given something of your true self away.

 

You committed yourself to an overt action designed to cause hurt, and you did it because YOU decided that your ex-girlfriend deserved to be hurt. THAT is now the person you are... a guy who hurts people based on his own flawed "logic".

 

Stop looking at the world only in terms of absolutes. My intention was for reckoning, a sense of balance, not to be malicious. By YOUR math, all jurors, judges, cops, soldiers and most heroes are evil. Does a rapist deserve to be punished? What makes rape worse than what my ex did? Here's a hint, it begins with person... that's right, perspective. Take your head out of God's ass and open your eyes, you may very well learn something. You believe what you believe, because it was force fed to you by others. I believe what I believe, because I pondered things and came to my own conclusions. Try it sometime, you might like looking at the world without the rose-colored shades.

 

Actually, you're also completely wrong about me. I became someone else while in the relationship, now that it's over I'm becoming myself again. I turned into a "it happens" apathy-ridden coward. All because I was in "love". I understand why I felt bad all the time now, it's because I wasn't being true to myself. Now I feel great and have a renewed focus, that has eluded me for around 8 years.

 

If you cannot understand how my ex wasn't accountable, I'll use myself as the example. She caused me hurt and it changed me, rather than trying to help me heal, she continued to bring me down to make herself feel better. I didn't force her to do anything, she actively made the decisions she did. Now she has to deal with the consequences. I gave her the opportunity to deal with on her own terms. She refused and now will deal with them on my terms.

 

As there is no standard for religion? As there is no standard for morality?

No, there is no universal standard, for religion or morality.

 

Sorry to bust your bubble there, Ace... but you're preaching to the choir on logic vs. emotion. And I say again, your logic is flawed because by your logic malicious intent equals evil, but by your actions that's just for OTHER PEOPLE as you apparently don't consider yourself to be an evil person.

Learn to read or stop posting. Not going to explain it again, because you choose to ignore my words.

 

Religious beliefs are based in faith. And morality is subjective. For me and for you... it's immoral to cheat on a romantic partner that you've made a commitment to. But there are others who do NOT embrace that view of morality, and we can't MAKE 'em. Unless they're breaking the law of the land, they can select whatever beliefs they like and thumb their noses at the world. That is their free will.

 

Yes and no. Religion is a organized set of beliefs, based on faith in a higher power (stuff beyond our limited understanding). Ideals are logical conclusions based on emotion (a code of conduct we follow based on our feelings). Morality is a specific group of ideals, derived from the most intense or raw emotions (primal even). So, I don't have to be Christian to believe cheating is immoral. Yet I can be Christian and believe threesomes are perfectly moral. This all depends on our life experiences. Just as you cannot understand the conviction I have, from seeing the after effects of murdered innocents. I can reflect, remember that smell and know what evil smells like... I didn't read about it a book or see it on TV either. I could have reached out and touched it.

 

What good are ideals if they do not guide our actions to not only follow the beliefs, but also uphold them. Is it right to not harm someone, but sit by idly while people are being hurt right in front of you? Ponder that for a minute. I would never strike a woman, but you could bet your last dollar that if someone was hitting a women in my presence, I'd do my best to stop it. As well as make sure the person committing the act was punished... whether by society or my own hand. Now, I know that the "how can you determine what is a fitting punishment" is coming, so I'll preempt it. He would suffer as close to equally as I could humanly measure. My ideals would guide my actions. He slaps her, I would probably slap him in return. The situation would dictate the fairest punishment.

 

What makes my judgment right, you'll ask now. I'll return the favor with a "what makes a judge or jury's decrees right?". Now we come to the checks and balances part of the discussion. What makes the checks and balances system right? All of these things were implemented by men. What makes one man better than another? They aren't, we merely fool ourselves into believing what suits us best. What makes me different, is that I understand this concept and don't try to fool myself. I understand that no one is perfect and everyone is entitled to mistakes, consequence is the only tool that brings remorse... whether the consequences are self-inflicted or inflicted by others. Without others inflicting consequences, you rely on hope... hope and 35 cents will get you a phone call. Not to say hope is a bad thing, but it's blind faith. Humans cannot survive on blind faith alone. I hope food somehow finds it way into my stomach, see how far that will get you in life. Hoping a murder feels remorse will get you as far as hoping to magically get feed.

 

We as a society and a community are responsible to police ourselves, although this cannot be accomplished via anarchy. We need some common guidelines that we must adhere to. This to me is the legal system. That is the only standard I follow. My ideals and beliefs guide me in all other aspects of life. Obviously, if we've had different life experiences our ideals and beliefs will differ, not to mention personalities. This is why I like discussion, it allows me to life vicariously through other's experiences to help me understand their outlook. Life is too short to experience everything first-hand.

When we attempt to force our will onto others, we disrespect their right to choose for themselves. If it weren't for kidnapping laws, it wouldn't be much different if I were to put a bag over your head and drag you to church. You would, no doubt, continue to reject my theology, just as someone who doesn't share your views on morality will inevitably reject them. And even though this thought is lost on you, I'm gonna share it with you anyway....

Who are YOU to interfere with free will when even God, Himself, stays His hand?

 

That's humanity, come to terms with it. Remember when the church used to kill and torture people. None of us have entirely "free will". It's only free as long as we follow the rules of the society, that we live among.

 

I do reject your theology. I feel it's ignorant and out-dated. I respect your right to believe in it though. Or have I tried to force you to convert to my hodge-podge of religious beliefs? I'm merely discussing things, want to convince me that your outlook is the "right" one... do so with a strong argument, not with hole-filled theories.

 

Who is mankind to interfere with "free will", when even the flying spaghetti monster, himself, stays he tentacle? Men interfere with free will all the time, what makes these men, more "divine" than any other man?

 

Your ex-girlfriend is NOT bound by your subjective view of morality. Assertiveness would demand that you uphold your internal beliefs and be true to yourself, but unless you're a person who believes it's okay to actively hurt others, you've only just become what you formerly despised.

This is where you're wrong. She is bound to my view of morality. She made the decision to hurt me and treat me bad. She is bound to deal with however I choose to react. She isn't bound to agree or like how I react though. Just as I'm bound to deal with putting myself in a vulnerable position. I'm not bound to agree or like the things she did though. Just as you're bound to deal with my views, because you chose to post in this thread. You're not bound to agree or even like my views though. See how that works?

[Trimmer]

Darkzen - did you, by any chance, come from a street gang background?

[SweetOlive]

I havent read what other people have wrote. But I understand what you mean because I've been in your position where I had and still have the ability to ruin my ex's life. But I wont because it's a waste of my time. I cant make my ex be the center of my world and make him pay for all the wrong he has done to me. As humans we have that revenge mode when we get hurt. But what I can tell you is that your ex did you wrong and some how karma will get her back. What you have to do is move on. Because she still has that power over you where you think about her and youre not able to move on. If you decide to ruin her life it will only give you a satisfaction for a small amount of time frame. When I think of my ex and how bad I want to get him back I feel sorry for him. I feel so bad that he is a poor character. How he doesnt know any better and how everything he has done to me he will pay.

[sb129]

Durn-ern Durn-ern Durn-ern.

 

Scene: A dark and stormy night. Zoom to Darkzen backlit at the top of a tall tower...

 

Darkzen: "And I WILL have my revenge on thee pretty unfaithful maiden! Mooo haw haw haw haw. Peril befall those who cross me!"

 

 

Ever noticed how Gargamel never had a girlfriend?

[lindya]

OMG. That was soooooooo creepy. Lindya, thanks for that little hilarious exerpt.

 

Loved Joannes responses though. he kept telling her it was "her call"- she "called" to not pay! As if a courthouse would issue a summons for something so pathetic- or would they?

 

Here it would go to a small claims court. You can raise pretty much whatever you like in the small claims court and have an initial hearing on it.

 

After as much mileage as possible had been got out of it for entertainment purposes, Darren would probably just be humiliated out of pressing for an evidential hearing. Depending on who was on the bench, he'd either be spoken down to in a kindly, smiling way - or he'd be yelled at, and possibly even blatantly insulted. Court's generally a bit too busy for judges to be endlessly fascinated by the peculiar reasoning of party litigants who imagine that they're demonstrating fine legal reasoning skills. More often they're just interested in utterly humiliating them for the entertainment of bored onlookers.

[sb129]

Court's generally a bit too busy for judges to be endlessly fascinated by the peculiar reasoning of party litigants who imagine that they're demonstrating fine legal reasoning skills. More often they're just interested in utterly humiliating them for the entertainment of bored onlookers.

 

 

Where can i get tickets?

[Darkzen]

So you admit to double standards in your behaviour and justifying your actions as you please. That's basically what you are doing.

No, it's a double standard to that way of thinking... it's a part of humanity, so it's standard in my eyes. Don't try and twist words to suit your argument, you should have understood the point I was alluding to. Standards and double standards are all based on perspective.

 

A good portion of society is against killing in any shape or form.

 

LOL. Does not the majority of society eat meat? What makes human life more important than animal life?

 

Obviously there is no love anymore, and it's quite possible that she never loved you, judging by her behaviour. It hurts to recognize this after nine years of hoping for something different. But what other explanation do you need? Isn't that obvious enough?

 

Not looking for an explanation TBH. Merely for things to be balanced.

 

Like you mentioned before, you have double standards and justify your actions as you please, so that means you can justify anything. So it follows from this that it's ok to be immoral in any situation, or in other words, you don't have any moral principles.

 

Good try at trying to twist words, you might have a career as a lawyer. Words make not the meaning. Context and intent determine the meaning of the words.

 

Who did you help besides yourself? What good did you bring to the world?

 

I did her company good.

 

I refuse to believe feeling apathy or "it happens" is right. I see it as a cowardly approach to the world.

 

There is no courage in your actions, actually you are a traitor in this situation (someone who betrays confidence or trust).

 

You may wish to look up the meaning of the word courage. Here's the meaning I implied...

 

"3. have the courage of one's convictions, to act in accordance with one's beliefs, esp. in spite of criticism."

 

The world would be a better place if there was more love in it. That must be a completely alien concept to you.

 

I agree with you. Let me know when the love crusade begins.

 

Thank you. I only hope your exploration leads you to a less destructive path at some point. If I can ask one question....were it possible to turn back the clock, but retain whatever learning you might have obtained from this incident, would you repeat what you did?

 

Unfortunately, because I know it's not the answer you seek, it would still be yes.

 

This, I think, sums it up beautifully.

 

 

Can you not see the hypocrisy in your statements and actions Darkzen?

 

Turning the other cheek may seem like "acceptance" and "weakness" to you, but to the majority of people on this thread, it is the more MORAL thing to do.

(Atheists and theists alike- we appear to be united on this one.)

 

Not quite. I would become what I despise if I performed these actions onto everyone. I'm performing them to fight what I perceive as evil. Just as most here would agree murder is bad, yet when a soldier murders a terrorist, he's hailed as a hero. You're free to be selective if you want, but the truth is you know this makes sense. Whose to say the terrorist is evil? I bet his people see him as noble and just and our soldiers as evil. Why cannot I be free to perceive things as evil based on my selectiveness, if you're able to? Everyone has avoided that question so far, are you afraid of what you'll see, if you do look at it?

 

I don't care if people disagree, but at least be open-minded enough to consider my points. I've considered yours, unfortunately it brings me to that question I keep asking...

[Darkzen]

Darkzen - did you, by any chance, come from a street gang background?

 

I was involved in gangs, but not as a member. My friends were members. So yes and no, depending on what you're getting at. I had second-hand experience, but was never involved in the mayhem/evil that they caused. I was also fairly young (16-17) and hadn't fully formed my ideals, so some of there actions did influence my beliefs.

 

I havent read what other people have wrote. But I understand what you mean because I've been in your position where I had and still have the ability to ruin my ex's life. But I wont because it's a waste of my time. I cant make my ex be the center of my world and make him pay for all the wrong he has done to me. As humans we have that revenge mode when we get hurt. But what I can tell you is that your ex did you wrong and some how karma will get her back. What you have to do is move on. Because she still has that power over you where you think about her and youre not able to move on. If you decide to ruin her life it will only give you a satisfaction for a small amount of time frame. When I think of my ex and how bad I want to get him back I feel sorry for him. I feel so bad that he is a poor character. How he doesnt know any better and how everything he has done to me he will pay.

 

Yeah, I don't believe in karma unfortunately. I need a more tangible punishment.

 

Durn-ern Durn-ern Durn-ern.

 

Scene: A dark and stormy night. Zoom to Darkzen backlit at the top of a tall tower...

 

Darkzen: "And I WILL have my revenge on thee pretty unfaithful maiden! Mooo haw haw haw haw. Peril befall those who cross me!"

 

 

Ever noticed how Gargamel never had a girlfriend?

 

 

Sure he did, it was Azreal.

[madgun68]

Is it really such an alien concept for someone to believe something is right and act accordingly for some people. It has to be about revenge or anger or wanting to lash out, right?

A lot of it has to do with motive.

 

Why can't it just be, me wanting a person to be held accountable for their actions... sure the things I'm doing aren't making her take responsibility for the wrongs she committed against me... although there's no avenue for me to force her to take accountability for those, so I did the only option I have to get the desired goal. Just as going to prison doesn't make things right, if you rape someone. It's the closest punishment available, because raping the rapist would be unacceptable to our current ideals.

Why don't you stop BSing yourself and call it what it is. REVENGE. She screwed you over and you did the same to her.

 

I would say it would be vastly different if you had gone to her superiors at work and told them of her actions simply because you felt they were morally or ethically wrong. That isn't the case..

 

You wanted her to pay for what she did to you and you chose to strike back at her using the means you had.

 

Personally, I don't really care about what's happened. I just find it laughable that you need to justify it to yourself.

 

Is it really that hard to imagine? Has anyone here served in the military? Been willing to give your life for a cause that you believe in? I've seen the corpses of children at mass graves while in Bosnia. I've seen it up close, smelled the death and decay of the innocent. It gives a type of conviction that few of you would ever understand. Hell, why not just let those people kill one another... it's not our place to interfere and wouldn't be better to just "let it go"?

Oh puh-lease. This takes the cake.

 

How many times has this country sat on its hands while thousands die in some country due to fighting factions in some country.

 

Most of the time, we get involved because there's something WE gain for doing so.

 

Someone has to fight against injustice and I don't see anyone else doing it. Obviously, this makes me a "flaming sword of retribution", right? It makes me evil, for wanting people to be punished for their evil actions. It makes me crazy to believe that walking away is the coward's path. It makes me angry and want to lash out at those who have caused me pain... maybe, just maybe, I believe injustice is wrong and refuse to be a coward.

Ding ding ding.

 

It's getting old already, being labeled this and that, being considered a liar because people can't fathom certain outlooks... "Oh noes", I'm angry and I'm the type that will hunt you down... some of you need to get a clue.

 

LOL, I am chill. I'm just using absurd examples to help illustrate my point. Just as some of the people here are being absurd. Labels are easy, but ignorant... just look at how many different sub-groups there are. Why can't we just be who we are?

Why do you feel the need to justify what you've done? (If you don't think this is the case, then I suggest that you go back through this thread and look at the number of times you have explained, re-explained and added details to the story for the sake of others. This alone suggests that you seek approval for what you've done.)

[Darkzen]

A lot of it has to do with motive.

 

Exactly.

 

Why don't you stop BSing yourself and call it what it is. REVENGE. She screwed you over and you did the same to her.

 

Yes, I'm BS'ing myself.

 

I would say it would be vastly different if you had gone to her superiors at work and told them of her actions simply because you felt they were morally or ethically wrong. That isn't the case..

 

I never said I did.

 

You wanted her to pay for what she did to you and you chose to strike back at her using the means you had.

 

We've established this captain obvious. There's not a huge difference between justice and revenge... not one that anybody can convincingly prove.

 

Personally, I don't really care about what's happened. I just find it laughable that you need to justify it to yourself.

 

Not justifying anything. Having a discussion. Do you understand the concept of discussion?

Oh puh-lease. This takes the cake.

 

How many times has this country sat on its hands while thousands die in some country due to fighting factions in some country.

 

Most of the time, we get involved because there's something WE gain for doing so.

 

I never said it was perfect in my views. I also brought up the perspective thing. Isn't it funny how a person can be both good and evil, depending on who is doing the judgment?

 

Ding ding ding.

 

Dong dong dong?

 

Why do you feel the need to justify what you've done? (If you don't think this is the case, then I suggest that you go back through this thread and look at the number of times you have explained, re-explained and added details to the story for the sake of others. This alone suggests that you seek approval for what you've done.)

 

Yes, I'm here for approval because you say so...

 

I Could use that psych 101 bullsheet to break you down too? You're posting in this thread to justify your opinion...amirite?

[JamesM]

Well, I've done some thinking and I've realized that my beliefs have been destroyed, to a certain extent. My ex of nine years, has pretty much destroyed my life and I'm in an opportunity to destroy her career, as well as keep all the money that's she's worked for. Leaving her jobless, broke and with a pox on her resume. I believe in an eye for an eye, but it more than that. I want her to feel what I feel. I want her to suffer for her actions, so that she can understand the suffering that I experienced.

 

Shes' the reason the relationship failed, I have not a single doubt in my heart. She admits it too. She crushed my hopes, my dreams and my concept of love. She did so and feels guilty about it, but has no desire to make amends for her actions.

 

I've made up my mind on the subject. I'm just curious if others would do the same in my situation. I tried to be the good guy for 9 years and it got me nothing but abused. Worst of all is the lack of empathy on her part. So I figure that by doing this, it'll A) make me feel better that she gets to share my misery B) teach her a lesson so that she kind of understands the pain she caused me C) I get 50k as severance pay for 9 years of pain and suffering and D) It's nothing illegal.

 

I used to be someone that would abhor this type of thing, but like I said, my beliefs have changed due to this entire relationship. I now feel that you must fight fire with fire, because unconditional love and/or understanding doesn't seem to work. I'm fed up with being hurt, when I do nothing but try to help people.

 

Darkzen, I quoted you and highlighted so that you do not think I took you out of context. Been there with you...even though I never saw it as such. I see you make the same claim here to others when you do not like their conclusions.

 

Would I do what you are contemplating? No. I know that. Would I want to out of revenge as you want to do out of revenge? Yes. Would I follow through? I doubt it, because unlike you, I do see that morality as a standard and it is the Bible. I am not going to debate my beliefs, nor am I saying that you should be like me. This is not a thread to decide if God is an illusion. This is my reason for not doing something out of revenge. Besides, from most everything I have read, revenge is rarely successful. And when it is, it doesn't produce the satisfaction as expected.

 

Read some of your own sentences. You seem in later posts to make it sound as if you only want to hurt her out of justice. Yet we have never heard her side of the story. Nor as any court for that matter. Who has decided that she is "guilty" as charged? You. She may have admitted to being at fault, but for nine years...she is the ONLY one at fault? SHE has caused all of the pain and suffering. I think most marriage counselors would tell you that even if she cheated, there must have been a reason. This is not to shift all of the blame to you at all. In fact, she may accept most of the blame. But it seems that somewhere in there you are more at fault than simply be the nice guy.

 

If you are to learn anything here, then I would guess it is that life hurts, and we must learn from our hurts. If you cannot sit back and see that you are at least partly to blame, then I am guessing that you may be "doomed" to repeat the mistakes again. I know that if my marriage was viewed objectively by someone other than myself or my wife, many things would be noticed that are done wrong by myself and her. Yet if I personally try to analysze our marriage, I have a hard time seeing anything wrong that I have done. Seeing what she has done wrong? Yep, real easy.

 

I do see a couple of things from you original post. First, why do you give someone so much power over your life? I think that you have more control than you let on. But as we all like to do, blaming someone else takes away responsibility from us. She has not destroyed your life. You simply have not bounced back yet from her decision to leave you. Yes, you have invested so many feelings and emotions into this relationship that it feels like the 'world has ended," but you still have all of the power over your life and its decisions. Feeling as if she has wronged you makes you a victim and not responsible...hence, powerless. Revenge gives you that (false) sense of power back again, but it does nothing to solve your current problems in life.

 

Second, what makes you think she will feel what you feel if you "ruin" her career? There is the possibility that the company may simply view it as a angry ex boyfriend (you) taking revenge on a very qualified employee (her). Nothing will be accomplished except you are more hurt and have less of a good reputation. You still have your problems...and maybe some new ones. And so she does get hurt and loses her job? Then she comes after you...she feels justified. Then a new thread of what you will do next?

 

Third, she will most likely get a new boyfriend. How will you handle that? Is he your next target? Will he be told all of the "truths" about her?

 

I don't see revenge as the way to solve anything here. That is why if I was in your position, I would find a way to move on. I would dedicate myself to being someone she will wish she had kept. Focus on career, income, finish college, a new girlfriend, a house, etc. When she sees you come after her, you justify her decision. When she sees you move on and up in life, she will regret her decision. This will be sweet revenge.

[Kasan]

Well, I am impressed...195 replies to a thread started Friday. Is this a record?

 

Why we continue to respond to someone who justifies and validates his reprehensible behavior is beyond me.

 

I don't see how you can pull anything out of this to debate Darkzen. Simply, you had a girlfriend, she cheated on you, you broke up, and now you are paying her back.

 

So again I ask what is there to debate? The forces of good vs evil? Was I wrong or right to do it? On and on it goes.

 

Logically (one of your favorite words) all I can see is that you were (are) dangerously close to crossing some lines (maybe criminal) but who knows? We are only getting your side.

 

I wish you would invite your ex, because I think the discussion would truly prove to be fascinating.

 

As always there are three sides to a relationship, yours, hers, and the truth. I am sure that you will find many more ways to stretch this out with your version of logic.

 

My logical mind tells me you need some serious help, which has been duly noted by numerous posters on this thread.

[Trimmer]

I was involved in gangs, but not as a member. My friends were members. So yes and no, depending on what you're getting at. I had second-hand experience, but was never involved in the mayhem/evil that they caused. I was also fairly young (16-17) and hadn't fully formed my ideals, so some of there actions did influence my beliefs.

Okay. Thanks. I'm not really getting at anything - just trying to understand you. The whole "she disrespected me", gun-to-your-head "you respect me now, don't you?", defining justice on my terms, not being able to walk away without feeling like a coward, teach you a lesson so you understand the pain you caused, justifying immoral actions in the name of an eye for an eye..... It had a familiar ring to it; I just wondered what your background was.

 

I could probably be more sympathetic, but frankly, I think your intense insistence and focus that she is "evil" is an insult to the vicitims of real evil across the world and throughout history. She cheated on you, lied to you, sullied your reputation - hey, she sounds like a lousy partner, but you knew about that for 8 years before things finally crashed. And now, she "stole money" from you, by virtue of the fact that you spent anything over what your basic living expenses would have been during your relationship? Is this your "logic?"

 

You invoke the atrocities of WWII, children in mass graves in Bosnia, fighting against terrorists, etc. in justifying why you must stand up to her "evil."

 

Face it: the evil crime that has damaged you so was that she left you, plain and simple, and didn't explain herself to your satisfaction. You haven't really made a decent case for her "evil" beyond this.

 

Here's a interesting thought experiment: You originally talked about the 50k as "severance pay" - you later protest that this is not about selfish gain for yourself, but severance pay certainly sounds that way, doesn't it? Prove to me that it's not about personal gain.

 

It sounds as if everything had gone cordially in your breakup, you and your brother would feel like some specific amount of money should be returned to her, but that part of your punishment will be withholding that from her, right? How about you collect that money, and make a donation of every penny, in her name, to a reputable charitable organization in your community? You are not left with an extra penny that you wouldn't have had, had you returned her "fair share" of her investment to her.

 

Here's the question - in order to punish her, do you have to benefit, or would you feel the sword of justice had made its cut fairly if you end up with nothing more in your pocket? Would you give up your "severance pay?" If you ran this by your brother, would he (your "checks and balances") go along with it?

 

(Incidentally, the reason I call this a thought experiment is that I don't think this would make your actions any more right or honorable; I think it would still be equivalent to stealing money that belongs to her, according to you, but I propose it to challenge your attitude about receiving your severance pay...)