Would you destroy another person's life?

[amaysngrace]

The "revenge" has been done... I don't hate her anymore, now it's just indifference.

 

 

So you did what you were planning to do then? That's good I guess if you think it was the right thing to do. And I'm glad you put it behind you now. I apologize that I didn't read this whole thread or else I'd have known.

 

I think it's good you didn't second-guess yourself, even if I don't know all the specifics.

 

But I still think it takes two to make it fail.

[JamesM]

I'm the type who will talk as long as people are listening. Not for the people listening, but because talking about things might actually raise some questions about things in me. Too bad no one has been able to do so thus far. I assume it's because no one is brave enough to turn the microscope onto themselves. Instead of trying they get mad and lash out or make lame excuses. This is why Socrates is my hero. All he did was turn the question onto others to see if they really knew WTF they were talking about... otherwise why should he take their advice.

 

Besides, if someone just posts an opinion and moves on, they're ignorant. They can justify it however they choose, but we all know the truth deep down.

 

If someone can honestly tell me that I'm "wrong", I'd listen. But telling me would have to be more than posting an opinion, that's based on, logic filled with holes. Honesty is being able to look at yourself objectively... no one has proven to me that they're honest... if they were they'd have addressed my questions and gave reasoning on why they feel I'm unjustified.

 

This is the very point of discussion and there's only been a couple of people, that have showed some degree of honesty so far. Most refuse to look at themselves objectively, because they know that they're full of it...

 

A refusal to fight back in my eyes is a sign of not having justification or just plain cowardice. If someone had such a strong belief in their views, they'd be wiling to debate them.

 

I am confused. Why did you post again..to get validation of your points or some differing opinions? Did you come here to engage in a debate and win or did you come to seek help? Maybe this is not the impression you want to leave, but when I read the responses you have been getting, I am seeing that others seem to feel this way, too.

 

Most don't come here to validate their points or to win a debate. You say you want a discussion yet you encourage a logical debate. If that is what you seek, then I think this is the wrong Board for you. If you treat all opinions that differ from yours as not valid or of any value to your situation, then why bother posting. People give opinions...take them or leave them. No one expects to have to engage in some philosophical debate with you.

 

Believe it or not....many people here have much greater problems than yours. Much as we all think we are the center of the world...and in our own minds we all are...others don't feel that way. So when people take the time to respond to your thread, they do it in hope that they will help you. I can guarantee you that if you treat feedback as no good because the person giving it cannot debate you like Socrates or provide all sorts of logic as support, then I think you will find that few people will even bother trying to help you or answer your threads.

 

If you are right, then so be it. We have no desire to fight. Call it cowardice or lacking justification...that is your opinion.

 

Not being mean, but if you ask for responses...respect them even if in your most valued opinion they are "worthless." Many of us have more life experiences than you and feel that this may actually help you. If you feel it is not helpful, then respectfully say so. But do not expect people to take the time to debate you with logic to show you what changes can be made for improvement in your life.

[Trimmer]

Either way, the money isn't hers.

You never really explained this sufficiently. If the money isn't hers, then how does it punish her for you to withhold it?

 

The money part is basically, that she cashed in some stock options and we decided to invest the money... I can be a bastard and keep the investment because of the situation...

"because of the situation..." you haven't been very clear on this but if I understand correctly, it sounds like the money from the stock options was all hers to start with, right? At what point along the way did the rights to that money become "not hers" - was it understood to be a "gift" to your brother's business, or was it understood to be an investment? If it was an investment, how did it become "not hers?"

 

If she takes you to civil court over the money, will you have the guts to (a) represent the initial understanding of the investment accurately, (b) make the rest of your case honestly (i.e. she owes me for expenses incurred during the relationship and as punishment for being evil), and © post on here what the resulting judgement is?

 

I already explained my thoughts on the subject, I just didn't direct it to your question. So try again.

There would be no use, would there? You have irrefutable logic backing your argument.

 

Just no soul.

[lindya]

If she takes you to civil court over the money, will you have the guts to (a) represent the initial understanding of the investment accurately, (b) make the rest of your case honestly (i.e. she owes me for expenses incurred during the relationship and as punishment for being evil), and © post on here what the resulting judgement is?

 

I think Darkzen would post the judgement, and I think we'd see around 20 pages as he criticised the judicial reasoning. Actually, it would probably be the most enjoyable day of his life....and he'd probably conclude (in 20 different posts) that the judge was nothing more than a mouthpiece to perpetuate dishonest social morals and norms.

 

His argument, it seems, is that he made an investment (presumably mental, emotional and to some extent financial) in the relationship based on "misrepresentation" by this woman. Had she not misrepresented herself, he would not have made the investment. Therefore he believes it's fair to deprive her of the investment she made in his brother's business.

 

How does he evidence someone misrepresenting who she is in a relationship? His opinion, in court, would be irrelevant as evidence. He'd probably need to have a psychologist's report backing up what he said. Even then, surely the court's view would be "so what?" Human beings are complex, with behaviour and emotions that are often fluctuating and unpredictable. It's not for courts to encourage a society where people are afraid to enter into friendships and romantic relationships in case they end up being sued for not having proved to be the person their friend/lover thought or hoped they were. Neither is it for a court to condone someone else taking it upon themselves to punish an ex partner for such "transgressions".

 

Neither is it for a court to punish someone for the ordinary human tendency to be inconsistent in their behaviour and emotions - unless they're breaking the law in the process. If a court were to rule in his favour over something like that, the floodgates would be open for every jilted/disappointed lover to raise an action. The consequences would be ridiculous - and the system couldn't cope. If you get into that business of punishing people for disappointing their lovers, or "misrepresenting" themselves where does it end?

 

"He told me he was a good lover"

"She told me she was a good cook"

"He told me he loved me"

"She told me she valued honesty - then she lied to me..."

 

Darkzen's implying that everyone who has contributed to this thread, other than himself, is dishonest. That they fail to examine themselves through the microscope. I don't know if there's an implication there that were they to look through the microscope at themselves, they'd find themselves in agreement with him. He believes his logic is irrefutable, because he's trapped himself in the belief that a romantic relationship is like a business contract. That it should be possible for people to protect themselves from being burned, in romantic relationships, in the same way that people can protect themselves from being ripped off in business dealings.

 

I doubt any woman reading this thread would want to enter into a relationship with Darkzen after reading his thoughts. Similarly, if his thoughts were validated by the judicial system, relationship/commitment phobia would become the norm. What a delightful world it would be. The outcome of Darkzen's thinking, put into common social practice, would probably be that the majority of normal people would just avoid romantic relationships altogether....for fear of encountering one of the many litigation-happy individuals out there, and all the stress, conflict and adversary that such people thrive on creating.

 

Darkzen - you've asked for a lot of other people's time and attention on this thread, and when they refuse to give it you cast aspersions on their character. You've accused people of dishonesty for not agreeing with you, or refusing to get embroiled in this philosophical discussion you want to have. A lot of people will avoid getting embroiled because they find it pointless or boring to do so - but you won't accept that. You maintain that they're afraid and dishonest.

 

Should the posters here take you to court for casting such aspersions on their characters? Or raid your bank account to teach you a lesson? Track down your employer or some other person who is in a position of power over you, forward them a link to this thread and see what theythink about it all?

[missdeathwish]

I suppose everyone has already said this, but it bears repeating:

 

Hurting someone that hurt you doesn't take away the hurt they caused.

 

Hurting her probably won't get you what you want (remorse, an apology, a second chance).

 

It's just plain not nice to intentionally destroy someone.

 

But you also need to think about one more thing. Think about the people you want to be with. Friends, lovers, family members. Now and in the future. I can tell you right now that I don't want to be around people that would intentionally destroy someone else's life (or even attempt to). Ever. In fact, I don't even want to be around people who are okay with that kind of person. I bet most of the people you care about and would want to be with in the future are like that too.

 

Heal well.

[Darkzen]

amaysngrace: No one knows all the specifics. I don't believe that I'm "right" in an absolute sense, merely that my outlooks are "right" for me. Discussion is the only method for people to grow. Our experiences limit our understanding, through the sharing of concepts and ideas, we can explore our own concepts and ideas.

 

JamesM: I posted to get differing opinions, in order to contemplate things from other's view-points. The problem I'm encountering is that, very few are willing to explain valid reasoning, for why they see things the way they do. How can I sympathize with anyone, if I cannot understand where they're coming from? A perfect example is the war on terrorism, we do not sympathize with them because we cannot relate to how they see things and vice versa. Until we can sympathize with one another, there can be no compromise. I'm tired of sympathizing with my ex, she never returned the favor. This means that I can no longer sympathize with her. Without sympathy, there can be no compassion. Without compassion, there can be no remorse. I needed remorse for being treated unfairly, she wasn't willing to offer it. So I'm not willing to offer her the same. We do not sympathize, feel compassion or remorse the punishments handed down to criminals... know why? Because we cannot relate to their actions. Just as many here, cannot relate to me actually defending myself.

 

I'm not asking for agreement of validation, I'm asking for an attempt to relate to my situation. You want me to relate to your opinions, show the same respect. Trust me when I say that I can fully relate to what many are saying... it's the reason I'm in this situation. I'm tired of being walked on by bad people, because I'm a good person. Now I choose to defend myself and stand-up for my rights. Maybe you won't agree with my methods, but you cannot honestly disagree with my concepts. Has anyone here fought back or stood-up for themselves and felt wrong in doing so, later on in life? I'd love to hear from them. Personally, whenever I've stood-up or fought against injustice, I've felt damn proud of myself. Why is this really so different?

 

I feel that many people here aren't being honest. It helps them cope with their decisions to not fight back. To agree with me would be admitting to themselves that they've lived a lie. No one wants to do that. Simply by answering my questions, shows that they're willing to look at themselves. This will help me see that they're being honest. That they're thought about it and can offer some insight. Until they can do so, why would I want to listen to what they have to say?

 

lindya: I would post the results. My personal feelings have nothing to do with the situation, but I wouldn't lie if asked about it. She invested money, the company shows losses to justify the loss of her investment and that's all the court will be concerned with. If my brother chooses to give me the money, it has nothing to do her. To say otherwise is purely speculation. The evidence shows that her investment was lost, end of debate, unless they want to try and prove that my brother falsified documents (which he didn't).

 

The same bull you're trying to say about me setting a precedence, would be true if she did win. Someone loses your investment "OMG they did it on purpose for , I'm suing". Why should my brother feel obligated to make amends to someone that doesn't deserve it. He felt bad and was willing to cover the loss out of his own pocket. Too bad, so sad. She chose her actions and has to deal with the consequences.

 

I also never claimed everyone was dishonest. Some people actually thought about it (such as yourself). You were honest in thinking that maybe you made the wrong decision. Because you see your ex happy, yet meanwhile you're still troubled. That's being honest with yourself. You're in a tough spot atm though, do you admit that your outlook was wrong and that everything that stems from that decision was a lie or do you refuse to admit that you were wrong and continue dealing with the consequences of others. I see the last 9 years as a lie and refuse to suffer the consequences of her actions... this is why I chose to finally fight back. I will not accept that I was a bad guy in this, I know that I didn't do anything to deserve what she did to me. If I walk away, I'm saying that she was right and that I was the problem... F-that.

 

Nor did I attack anyone's character, I'm making observations based on their actions. It's an opinion... if they feel I'm wrong, they can clarify what they said. Just as I have done numerous times. That's what a discussion is. If all the opinions and reasoning are on the table, that's when it's time to agree to disagree. I'm put most of my opinions and the reasoning behind them on the table, I'm still waiting for others to do the same. They posted for a reason, if they didn't have a reason, they wouldn't have posted.

 

As for them taking actions against me... that would be their choice, if they felt justified in doing so, who am I to stop them... but they better be willing to deal with the consequences of what their actions cause me to do.

 

missdeathwish: I want balance and my actions will achieve this. You're absolutely right though, it won't remove the hurt or force her to be a better person. It will allow me to move on without any questions though. Those I care about, would probably do worse to her, with the proper opportunity... in defense of those they love and care for. Would you allow someone you cared for to be hurt, if you could stop the pain?

[Darkzen]

You never really explained this sufficiently. If the money isn't hers, then how does it punish her for you to withhold it?

 

It punishes her because the money could've been hers.

 

"because of the situation..." you haven't been very clear on this but if I understand correctly, it sounds like the money from the stock options was all hers to start with, right? At what point along the way did the rights to that money become "not hers" - was it understood to be a "gift" to your brother's business, or was it understood to be an investment? If it was an investment, how did it become "not hers?"

 

Yes it was a stock option. It was an investment. The investment was lost. It's not hers any more. My brother was willing to give her the money out of his own pocket, I told him not to.

 

If she takes you to civil court over the money, will you have the guts to (a) represent the initial understanding of the investment accurately, (b) make the rest of your case honestly (i.e. she owes me for expenses incurred during the relationship and as punishment for being evil), and © post on here what the resulting judgement is?

 

Yes, yes (if asked) and yes. The evidence is all that matters, her legal entitlement to the money is no longer. My arguing why I feel the money is as pointless as her arguing why she feels the money is hers... the money doesn't exist any more, it's now different money that no one is entitled to.

 

There would be no use, would there? You have irrefutable logic backing your argument.

 

Sure there is a use, if you can refute my logic? A refusal tells me you can't and it's the easy way out. You've already spent plenty of time posting in this thread, what does one more post really matter if you believe that you're right?

 

Just no soul.

What's this soul you speak of? I don't believe in the concept.

[a4a]

Just add some horns to that photo...... then this would all make sense. :lmao:

[Darkzen]

Just add some horns to that photo...... then this would all make sense. :lmao:

 

Don't need any horns... it appears everyone else has halos.

[VIP]

We do not sympathize, feel compassion or remorse the punishments handed down to criminals... know why? Because we cannot relate to their actions.

 

Yes, we do. Because no matter what they are human beings.

 

Has anyone here fought back or stood-up for themselves and felt wrong in doing so, later on in life? I'd love to hear from them. Personally, whenever I've stood-up or fought against injustice, I've felt damn proud of myself.

 

If you ever really loved a person, you can never hate them no matter what they do. If I did anything bad to my ex, the guilt would eat me up inside. I cannot possibly imagine how it can make anyone feel better to hurt another person. It all goes directly back to your conscience and you feel dirty inside and no amount of repentance is going to make you clean.

 

She invested money, the company shows losses to justify the loss of her investment and that's all the court will be concerned with. If my brother chooses to give me the money, it has nothing to do her. To say otherwise is purely speculation. The evidence shows that her investment was lost, end of debate, unless they want to try and prove that my brother falsified documents (which he didn't).

 

So no matter what the company shows, the money is still there. You take it - you steal, because it's not yours. A thief that hasn't been caught is still a thief.

 

Would you allow someone you cared for to be hurt, if you could stop the pain?

 

No, I wouldn't allow anyone to be hurt if I could help, including my ex.

[Darkzen]

Yes, we do. Because no matter what they are human beings.

 

LOL ok, you feel those things for people you consider heartless? Die you shed a tear for Jeffery Dahmer? I sure and the hell didn't. He was evil and deserved what he got IMHO. To say otherwise is purely a lie, you know it and so do I.

 

If you ever really loved a person, you can never hate them no matter what they do. If I did anything bad to my ex, the guilt would eat me up inside. I cannot possibly imagine how it can make anyone feel better to hurt another person. It all goes directly back to your conscience and you feel dirty inside and no amount of repentance is going to make you clean.

 

I explained that I didn't love her, if she was capable of those actions. I loved an illusion. Her actions finally showed me that she wasn't the person I thought I loved. I did feel dirty, because I didn't deserve to be treated that way. Once I came to terms that it wasn't my fault, I needed reckoning to get past it. I got that and I feel squeaky clean.

 

So no matter what the company shows, the money is still there. You take it - you steal, because it's not yours. A thief that hasn't been caught is still a thief.

 

No, the money isn't there. It's gone, lost in investments that went bad. She's not entitled to the money, it's not her money. I'm not taking it from her, I'm preventing her from getting it... big difference. Like I suggested before, I told my brother to keep it.

 

No, I wouldn't allow anyone to be hurt if I could help, including my ex.

I call bull****. There's plenty that you can do to prevent people from getting hurt. You justify your inaction with logic... just as I justify my action with logic. We can twist things back and forth, but the truth is that you refuse to acknowledge that you're in control of your actions/inactions. I'm in complete control of mine. I understand that my perspective allows me to cater to my ideals... unlike you. My question is, what makes you're method better than mine? I can find plenty of examples that justify my behavior and vice versa... who determines right and wrong? Here's a hint, it's not God...We do, based on our perspectives. Be honest with yourself already. You're trying to argue why you're way is the best, back it up with reasoning that will make me reconsider my stance. Until you can, you're not honest with yourself. It shows clearly in your inability to delve deep enough to find out why you truly feel the way you do.

 

I won't live in a self-imposed delusion because it's easy. I know who I am and why I do what I do, because I'm brave enough to ask questions that have answers that I'd rather not see.

[Kasan]

Well Darkzen I would like to clarify my reason for not wanting to debate your behavior.

 

My lack of wanting to debate your actions has nothing to do with me being a coward or dishonest.

 

It is as simple as this....when I debate an issue with someone, I feel passionately about the issue.

 

I just can't feel any passion about your situation!

[sb129]

you refuse to acknowledge that you're in control of your actions/inactions. I'm in complete control of mine. I understand that my perspective allows me to cater to my ideals... unlike you.

 

I don't think anyone who has posted here refuses to acknowledge that they are in control of their actions/inactions.

 

Everyone is in control of their actions, and all the posters on this thread have demonstrated that they are- its just that their perspective is DIFFERENT to yours Darkzen, which allows them to cater to THEIR ideals, which again, are DIFFERENT to yours.

 

Unfortunately, you are in the minority regarding this topic.

 

You feel that you are in the right with one self justifying soliloquy after another. Thats absolutely your prerogative. Just as everyone else who disagrees with you has the right to do so, whether they justify it to you or not.

 

This thread is getting tiring- we are unwittingly feeding Darkzens ego by allowing him to continue with his self righteous BS.

 

I am even guilty of it by posting this.

 

At the end of the day, if someone I was close to considered doing what you did Darkzen, I would be worried about their mental stability OR whether or not I truly knew them as well as i thought I did, and whether I would want to know them anymore.

 

I don't need to give you a list of reasons (again).

 

That is simply how I feel about the matter.

[Darkzen]

Well Darkzen I would like to clarify my reason for not wanting to debate your behavior.

 

My lack of wanting to debate your actions has nothing to do with me being a coward or dishonest.

 

It is as simple as this....when I debate an issue with someone, I feel passionately about the issue.

 

I just can't feel any passion about your situation!

 

So why post in the first place? There had to be some motivation to even make you consider chiming in on the topic.

[Darkzen]

I don't think anyone who has posted here refuses to acknowledge that they are in control of their actions/inactions.

 

Everyone is in control of their actions, and all the posters on this thread have demonstrated that they are- its just that their perspective is DIFFERENT to yours Darkzen, which allows them to cater to THEIR ideals, which again, are DIFFERENT to yours.

 

Unfortunately, you are in the minority regarding this topic.

 

You feel that you are in the right with one self justifying soliloquy after another. Thats absolutely your prerogative. Just as everyone else who disagrees with you has the right to do so, whether they justify it to you or not.

 

This thread is getting tiring- we are unwittingly feeding Darkzens ego by allowing him to continue with his self righteous BS.

 

I am even guilty of it by posting this.

 

At the end of the day, if someone I was close to considered doing what you did Darkzen, I would be worried about their mental stability OR whether or not I truly knew them as well as i thought I did, and whether I would want to know them anymore.

 

I don't need to give you a list of reasons (again).

 

That is simply how I feel about the matter.

 

OK, you're in such control of your actions, that I manipulated you into that last post. You felt the desire for the last explanation to continue feeling good about your views. Now like the rest, you'll walk away, because to stay means that you have to question things you don't want to question. Your excuses protect you from having to look. They protect you from questioning yourself. They protect you from possibly seeing lies that you've told yourself.

 

I'm perfectly stable in my mental state. I'm a productive member of society, although that doesn't mean, I have to be a sheep that follows the herd. Because I don't buy into the propaganda doesn't make me unstable or insane, merely different than those that do buy into it. I could turn the tables and make you out to be mentally unstable for how you see that world. That won't justify my ideals though, merely make excuses so that I don't have to open my eyes. Rather than making excuses, I seek understanding to these questions.

[StaringContest]

I feel that many people here aren't being honest. It helps them cope with their decisions to not fight back. To agree with me would be admitting to themselves that they've lived a lie. No one wants to do that. Simply by answering my questions, shows that they're willing to look at themselves. This will help me see that they're being honest. That they're thought about it and can offer some insight. Until they can do so, why would I want to listen to what they have to say?

 

Didn't you say earlier it's not possible to psycho analyze people just from what they've posted on an internet message board? Or does that only apply when people are analyzing you and not the other way around?

 

You keep saying how no one will answer your questions or explain themselves logically. Many people have and a lot better than you at that. You're just too full of yourself to listen.

 

BTW, what's with the "my brain thinks faster than I can express myself" BS? Most normal people would just say "I'm not good at communicating my ideas". Why the ridiculously elaborate explanation? It comes off like you're trying to make us all think you're some master genius who's better than us because your brain works too fast.

 

People don't want to debate with you, because you sound like a raving lunatic. It's like if I decide having a debate with a drunken crazy guy isn't worth my time or effort, it doesn't make me weak or lying or whatever else. It makes me sane.

 

I'm sure none of this will get through to you. You'll just keep spouting off all the same stuff that makes no sense and calling it logical while dismissing anything that actually is logical.

[lindya]

You're in a tough spot atm though, do you admit that your outlook was wrong and that everything that stems from that decision was a lie or do you refuse to admit that you were wrong and continue dealing with the consequences of others.

 

Moods come and go. I was coming down with a cold a couple of days ago, which always makes me feel sorry for myself - and reading your thread triggered a bit of discussion about an old issue for me.

 

To clarify, and as briefly as I can, the issue: If you're a woman involved with a disturbed guy, and you don't have some kind of disturbed behaviour marking you as a kindred spirit he can relate to (or abuse), you're never going to be exciting enough for him. He might respect you, but you'll never be his soul mate.

 

Anyway, once someone has you cast in that "not nearly as exciting as me, of course, but providing the stability I need" role, they can become quite rejecting and abusive if you suddenly have a crisis yourself and therefore become needier than usual. The temptation to turn the tables, adopt a cold and superior stance and feel like the "okay" one is probably too much to resist.

 

Playing therapist in a romantic relationship is naive, self-congratulatory behaviour, but I think the lesson I received for doing it was far too harsh - hence that question of "should I have been vengeful? On the other hand, best just to focus on learning the lesson and not repeating the mistake, rather than lashing out.

 

As far as dealing with consequences from other people's behaviour goes, it's

possible to let someone know you're not happy about something they've done without being vindictive about it. If people retain respect for you, then they're more likely to try to make amends in some way. Not just that, but often by refusing to be dramatic about it you can encourage them out of their drama mode.

 

Bottom line is that I believe the vengeful approach is liable to provoke the worst from other people rather than the best - and I don't believe it wins respect from those whose respect is worth having.

[amaysngrace]

 

Discussion helps bring understanding, maybe not agreement, but it does help people understand other view-points. I understand that I could have walked away, but doing so would have left me unfulfilled. I would feel wronged and not be able to move on. Being able to feel some form of vindication makes me feel better. I would have rather she stepped up and made the decision to do the right thing. She chose not to and it made me feel like she got away with evil actions and had no consequences.

 

 

 

 

I understand what you're saying now that I've read this post. It would be hard to move on if you feel as though a score needed to be settled. It would be like she got over on you. Now you can rest easy.

 

Like you said, she is the one who did something wrong in the first place. You just called her on it.

 

You may have actually done her a favor by you forcing her to face the consequences of her actions. Maybe she'll learn something from it.

 

But most importantly you did what you felt was right.

 

And that makes you a survivor rather than a victim IMO.

[Darkzen]

Didn't you say earlier it's not possible to psycho analyze people just from what they've posted on an internet message board? Or does that only apply when people are analyzing you and not the other way around?

 

Not not analyzing anyone, I'm making an observation based on what I see. I'm not breaking down people down based on canned text-book psychology. That's the difference. If they feel that I'm off they can explain it to my understanding. Or do you take everything you see and hear at face value?

 

You keep saying how no one will answer your questions or explain themselves logically. Many people have and a lot better than you at that. You're just too full of yourself to listen.

Can you quote them answering my question and using logic and reason to explain why they feel that way? I'm the one whose full of it though, lol.

 

BTW, what's with the "my brain thinks faster than I can express myself" BS? Most normal people would just say "I'm not good at communicating my ideas". Why the ridiculously elaborate explanation? It comes off like you're trying to make us all think you're some master genius who's better than us because your brain works too fast.

 

If that's what you feel I'm coming off as, that's your insecurities, not mine. It's a bad thing to try and fully explain things... ok got it.

 

People don't want to debate with you, because you sound like a raving lunatic. It's like if I decide having a debate with a drunken crazy guy isn't worth my time or effort, it doesn't make me weak or lying or whatever else. It makes me sane.

I would assume you're talking of the "doesn't make any sense" raving lunatic variety. Sanity/insanity is a matter of perspective. I make sense and use reason in my arguments. Maybe I'm a lunatic, by definition, but I'm far from raving. You make excuses, nothing more. How I perceive you for making excuses is my choice. If you believe my reasons unvalidated, you wouldn't be here defending yourself IMHO. OH SNAP! Isn't that kind of like me defending myself from my ex's reasoning? Needless to say, you can say whatever you want, but your actions speak louder than your words ever will. If you had a way to shoot down my questions with logic you would have, instead you come here and make excuses of why you don't have to.

 

I'm sure none of this will get through to you. You'll just keep spouting off all the same stuff that makes no sense and calling it logical while dismissing anything that actually is logical.

 

LOL. Yes, I see your logic. I'm sorry, maybe if I lived your life everything you think would make perfect logical sense to me. Yet, I'm wrong because I seek reasons to this "logical sense" that you claim was made. Maybe if you take the rose-colored glasses off, you might be able to see what I'm talking about. It's not about being right or wrong, it's about trying to identify with these so-called opinions. How can I identify with these outlooks if the reasons you believe them are a mystery. That's why I use "elaborate explanations", it's called conversation. How can one see your side, if you do not explain how you came to your conclusions?

 

Whatever though, I'm insane and a lunatic, simply because I ask for some insight into why people see things the way they do... and you say I refuse to listen or make any sense. I guess they're your illusions, who am I to try and take them from you.

[Darkzen]

I understand what you're saying now that I've read this post. It would be hard to move on if you feel as though a score needed to be settled. It would be like she got over on you. Now you can rest easy.

 

Like you said, she is the one who did something wrong in the first place. You just called her on it.

 

You may have actually done her a favor by you forcing her to face the consequences of her actions. Maybe she'll learn something from it.

 

But most importantly you did what you felt was right.

 

And that makes you a survivor rather than a victim IMO.

 

Only took 17 pages for someone to understand my reasoning. Kudos for taking the time to look at things from my perspective, as opposed to just bashing me for my beliefs.

[Darkzen]

Moods come and go. I was coming down with a cold a couple of days ago, which always makes me feel sorry for myself - and reading your thread triggered a bit of discussion about an old issue for me.

 

To clarify, and as briefly as I can, the issue: If you're a woman involved with a disturbed guy, and you don't have some kind of disturbed behaviour marking you as a kindred spirit he can relate to (or abuse), you're never going to be exciting enough for him. He might respect you, but you'll never be his soul mate.

 

Anyway, once someone has you cast in that "not nearly as exciting as me, of course, but providing the stability I need" role, they can become quite rejecting and abusive if you suddenly have a crisis yourself and therefore become needier than usual. The temptation to turn the tables, adopt a cold and superior stance and feel like the "okay" one is probably too much to resist.

 

Playing therapist in a romantic relationship is naive, self-congratulatory behaviour, but I think the lesson I received for doing it was far too harsh - hence that question of "should I have been vengeful? On the other hand, best just to focus on learning the lesson and not repeating the mistake, rather than lashing out.

 

As far as dealing with consequences from other people's behaviour goes, it's

possible to let someone know you're not happy about something they've done without being vindictive about it. If people retain respect for you, then they're more likely to try to make amends in some way. Not just that, but often by refusing to be dramatic about it you can encourage them out of their drama mode.

 

Bottom line is that I believe the vengeful approach is liable to provoke the worst from other people rather than the best - and I don't believe it wins respect from those whose respect is worth having.

 

Now that I think about it. What you described is probably exactly what happened in my ex's head. We broke up when I called her to talk, because I was feeling depressed.

 

I expressed my lack of joy at her actions. She didn't show me any respect. Her answer was "what do you want me to tell you?".

 

Unfortunately I understand where you're coming from, but personally whenever I've taken the passive approach, it's lead to me feeling like poop. Fighting back has always made me feel like, there's nothing weighing me down afterwards. No doubts, no questions, no regret, etc... that's why I took that approach, finally got tired of being walked on and it has truly made me feel a lot better about myself. I was really messed up immediately after the break, I wanted to kill myself because I felt like "WTF is the point?". This was my way to deal with it, keeping her in my head as a decent person made the past 9 years a lost cause... now that I see her as evil and I did what I could to punish her for her actions, I feel like the balance has been restored.

[amaysngrace]

I probably would've got where you were coming from sooner but I told you yesterday that I didn't read the whole thread. Today I went to page 7. I like that number.

 

It sucks to be really really wronged and sometimes you do have to do something about it. And however you decide to handle it is entirely up to you. You're the one who has to face yourself everyday.

 

I don't think anybody truly understands how angry this whole thing made you maybe. Maybe nothing terribly bad has ever been done to them.

 

Lucky them. But sometimes when somebody wrongs you in a big way the only way to feel good again is to get even as best as you can. It may not make you feel great but at least it makes you feel better.

 

I've totally been where you're at now. It's like taking that part of yourself back from the person who tried to rip it away. Self-preservation and all.

[StaringContest]

Not not analyzing anyone, I'm making an observation based on what I see.

Semantics.

 

I'm not breaking down people down based on canned text-book psychology. That's the difference.

So just because you claim that everyone else is using "canned text-book psychology makes it true. I'm pretty sure that most of the people here aren't therapists or studying psychology. Most are just like you, they're making statements based on their observations and life experiences.

 

If they feel that I'm off they can explain it to my understanding.

Yet when you feel someone else is off, you claim what they said is invalid because it's "canned text-book psychology"? If you can label other people's opinions as "canned text-book psychology" I'm within my right to label yours as "raving lunacy".

 

Can you quote them answering my question and using logic and reason to explain why they feel that way?

A rational and less egocentric person could go back and read this thread and see plenty of it. You're clearly not one, so it'd be a waste of time quoting you anything.

 

If that's what you feel I'm coming off as, that's your insecurities, not mine.

No, it's coming from your insecurities. I don't have to go around trying to work in comments into my conversations to show people how smart I am. You do because you're insecure.

 

It's a bad thing to try and fully explain things... ok got it.

It's a bad thing to over explain things just to make yourself look better. If someone said to you "Oops I thought I had explained that already. I tend to leave things out.", you'd get the point. There's no need for that person to tell you how fast their brain works.

 

If you believe my reasons unvalidated, you wouldn't be here defending yourself IMHO. OH SNAP! Isn't that kind of like me defending myself from my ex's reasoning?

So you're saying you think your ex's reasoning is valid? If you believed her reasons unvalidated, you wouldn't be here defending yourself, right? And according to the logic of what you just said, you're defend yourself against people's statements that you shared the fault in the breakup because you felt they were valid. So if you shared the fault in the break-up, then why are you so adamant to get your "justice"?

 

Now let me get all your logic straight. If people defend themselves, they feel that the person's points are valid. But if they don't defend themselves they're weak and afraid. So what does a person do when they feel the person's points aren't valid and they're not weak or afraid?

 

Also, I'm not defending myself. I made one post to you. Your reply twisted half of what I said and you made barely any sense. I saw no reason to continue discussing the issue of your revenge on your ex. It was obvious that your opinion on that is made up and you're unwilling to see anyone else's viewpoint. It was also obvious that some wires are crossed in your head. I posted again because I chose to defend the people who are trying way too hard to help you and who you keep bashing.

 

Whatever though, I'm insane and a lunatic, simply because I ask for some insight into why people see things the way they do... and you say I refuse to listen or make any sense. I guess they're your illusions, who am I to try and take them from you.

The reason I think you're a raving lunatic isn't because you want revenge (or justice or whatever) from your ex or that you claim to want insight. It's because you say one thing one minute and another thing the next, and you don't seem to see the contradictions. You claim you want discussion and understanding, but you dismiss anyone that doesn't agree with you. You don't actually discuss anything. Then you make all kinds of accusations against people for doing exactly what you're doing when you're doing it more than they are. Your rules of justice, debate, and logic change depending on whether you're applying them to you or someone else.

 

Anyway, that's all I've got to say about this. I won't respond on this thread anymore. Take that as weak or whatever you like.

[Darkzen]

Staringcontest: Such an ill-fitting name considering your actions. The one point that you're leaving out that totally invalidates your entire argument is... I back up my opinion with reasoning and logic. Maybe you don't agree with my views, but it doesn't change the fact that it's still an extremely important piece of a discussion. Those that have used reasoning to back-up their opinions, never address my counter-points. To me, that's due to them not knowing how to respond. And rather than facing the piper, they make a lame excuses attacking my beliefs and leave... just like you did.

 

I'm more than willing to discuss things, but "it takes two to tango". One side makes a point, the other side makes a counter-point, rinse and repeat. This continues until both sides cannot produce any more points or counter-points. Then if those involved still see things at odds, they agree to disagree and carry on with life. It's not about who can win the discussion, it's about sharing ideas and thoughts in a hope that you may learn from other's insight. Not saying that you'll always learn something, but it's better than living in your own little world of ignorance.

 

You can feel I'm wrong, but the truth of the matter is that there is no right and wrong. You're refusal to be open enough to at least consider what I'm saying shows me fear and/or ignorance. Or do you really feel that it doesn't exist? I can show you a couple people that understood what I've said thus far. They may not agree with my actions, but they at least saw it from my perspective.

 

That is a good one about me being insecure though. I'm insecure because I'm stating a fact... maybe you're insecure, because that fact makes you feel like less of a person. I sure and the hell don't blame Peyton Manning for being talented at football. If I did it'd be my own insecurities and/or jealousy. If I wanted to brag about myself, I'd start by posting my IQ and my aptitude test scores from the Army. But those have no relevance to the point I was making. The fact that my mind processes information, faster than I can clearly express it does. At it's most basic level, sure it's a problem communicating. Like I said though, I give the reasoning for points I make. So ignorant people, such as yourself, can't twist my statements to suit their own agenda. Although, I guess you found a way regardless.

 

I'll give you some credit at least, you did attempt to discuss some things (making points and/or counter-points). I have the feeling that you won't be back, because you know that they're weak and easily refuted. To me, your actions are speaking volumes about your character. No matter how you make excuses or dodge the issues.

 

P.S. One last thing... my logic doesn't change at all, merely gets clarified as the discussion progresses. It may appear to change, but it never changed in my mind. It just took me a while to express it fully.

[JamesM]

Staringcontest: Such an ill-fitting name considering your actions. The one point that you're leaving out that totally invalidates your entire argument is... I back up my opinion with reasoning and logic. Maybe you don't agree with my views, but it doesn't change the fact that it's still an extremely important piece of a discussion. Those that have used reasoning to back-up their opinions, never address my counter-points. To me, that's due to them not knowing how to respond. And rather than facing the piper, they make a lame excuses attacking my beliefs and leave... just like you did.

 

I'm more than willing to discuss things, but "it takes two to tango". One side makes a point, the other side makes a counter-point, rinse and repeat. This continues until both sides cannot produce any more points or counter-points. Then if those involved still see things at odds, they agree to disagree and carry on with life. It's not about who can win the discussion, it's about sharing ideas and thoughts in a hope that you may learn from other's insight. Not saying that you'll always learn something, but it's better than living in your own little world of ignorance.

 

You can feel I'm wrong, but the truth of the matter is that there is no right and wrong. You're refusal to be open enough to at least consider what I'm saying shows me fear and/or ignorance. Or do you really feel that it doesn't exist? I can show you a couple people that understood what I've said thus far. They may not agree with my actions, but they at least saw it from my perspective.

 

That is a good one about me being insecure though. I'm insecure because I'm stating a fact... maybe you're insecure, because that fact makes you feel like less of a person. I sure and the hell don't blame Peyton Manning for being talented at football. If I did it'd be my own insecurities and/or jealousy. If I wanted to brag about myself, I'd start by posting my IQ and my aptitude test scores from the Army. But those have no relevance to the point I was making. The fact that my mind processes information, faster than I can clearly express it does. At it's most basic level, sure it's a problem communicating. Like I said though, I give the reasoning for points I make. So ignorant people, such as yourself, can't twist my statements to suit their own agenda. Although, I guess you found a way regardless.

 

I'll give you some credit at least, you did attempt to discuss some things (making points and/or counter-points). I have the feeling that you won't be back, because you know that they're weak and easily refuted. To me, your actions are speaking volumes about your character. No matter how you make excuses or dodge the issues.

 

P.S. One last thing... my logic doesn't change at all, merely gets clarified as the discussion progresses. It may appear to change, but it never changed in my mind. It just took me a while to express it fully.

 

 

If you could see these statements as we see them, then maybe you would understand OUR positions. To me when I read your comments, you have a hard time seeing other people's positions...unless they agree with you.

 

Discussions are not about point, counterpoint...those would be a debate. Discussions involve listening, responding, asking questions...all with a mutual respect for each other's opinions. It is not about calling someone ignorant because they don't see YOUR point of view.

 

Call me weak or ignorant...but that does not make you smarter. Fact of the matter is...if you came here asking a question, then respect all answers. This is not a debate in philosophy. It is a sharing of ideas without a continual restating of that idea with additional logic again and again.