Do Nice guys always have to finish last?

[Z_man]

Hi, I guess you can say that I am your garden variety nice guy. I have always been taught to be sensitive and responsive to other's needs and be considerate to others as I would want to be treated. There seems to be nothing wrong fundatmentally in this way of thinking but for one major side effect. It seems women are non-responsive to guys who don't have a cocky arrogance about them.

 

 

This troubles me oh so much. I can't understand how women fall head over heels, for guys who treat them like 2nd class citizens and walk all over them. I try not to gerneralize but from my experience, I would have to honestly say that it seems some women have an inherent self-destructive masochism about them.

 

 

What about guys who want to put their partner's needs to the forefront and treat them with the upmost respect? Not all guys come from the same mold ( even though I know that is hard to believe). If women are open to trying a different type of guy than from the arrogant jock-type, they will be in for a whole new world of love and respect . Is there any hope for the guys who were raised to be caring and sensitive? Or are we just too predictable? Gee what fun is there in having a sense of honor?

[yes]

guys who're TOO nice finish last. those who strike a good balance of niceness and independence, finish right on time.

 

 

how many times have we had this discussion on here? i think it's time to create a "FAQ"!

 

-yes

[midori]

I like the idea of an FAQ

 

To Z_Man: define "nice." I broke up a couple of months ago with a guy who was nothing but nice -- to the point where I was bored to tears. He never offered a controversial opinion, anything I said went in terms of what we did, when, etc. All at my convenience. He never even once told a joke!!!

 

That irritated me. Not because I'm looking for a challenge, am masochistic, or have confidence problems. But because when I'm dating someone I'm looking for honest interaction. I just happen to know that at least 20% of what I say in a given day is ridiculous, half-baked, or just plain wrong. My friends don't just nod and smile at me and hold the door for me to pass through (although I especially value my friends who hold the door for me, they're the best). My friends tell me when they think I'm being an idiot. And I tell them. Why would I want to date a guy who treats me like a precious, fragile object 100% of the time? (sometimes would be great of course, especially if I'm actually feeling fragile, which happens every once in a while)

 

Most of the women I know aren't looking to be treated like a priceless museum pieces. Common courtesy is expected, of course. Breaking dates at the last minute, always thinking about oneself exclusively, etc. -- these are traits that I think most women would agree are not good in a guy. But the occasional transgression, paired with honest engagement, is inifinitely better than someone whose prevailing attitude is "your wish is my command."

 

There's another thing at issue, I find, when men moan that women only like jerks. It's often being uttered by someone who has set his sights on a woman with whom he has little in common. I don't think that attractiveness in the adult world is as brutally scripted and narrow as it is in high-school, but it is a reality nonetheless. Why is the "nice" guy fixing his interest on a woman who is way more attractive both physically and personality-wise than he is? How realistic is that? So when he finds himself getting nowhere with her, well, I suppose it's easier to attribute his failing to her perverse preference for jerks. And there may be some truth to that, in some sense, sometimes. But what's going unsaid is that while he's mooning over an unattainable woman, the "nice" guy is ignoring dozens of very nice women who would love to be asked out by a nice guy.

[midori]

by the way, I'm not suggesting that you're either boring or chasing after women you've got no hope of attracting. But they're things to bear in mind for the general question.

[Tony T]

YOU ASK: "What about guys who want to put their partner's needs to the forefront and treat them with the upmost respect?"

 

Nobody wants a man who is a doorman, who will put the other person's needs ahead of their own all the time. There has to be a balance. To most women, a lovesick prune is the most sickening person on the planet and most will not want anykind of continuing relationship with him even if he's the only guy in town.

 

You should always treat people with respect, but that doesn't mean kissing their ass.

 

2. "Is there any hope for the guys who were raised to be caring and sensitive?"

 

Being caring and sensitive is irrelevant to the subject here. You can be caring and sensitive and still look out for yourself, not be predictable, not suck up to a female all the time, etc. Everything has to be done in balance and until you learn that balance, it just won't happen for you.

 

3. "Or are we just too predictable?"

 

I don't know if you are too predictable. But most nice guys can be and that's such a shame.

[Tony T]

YOU STATE: "Why is the "nice" guy fixing his interest on a woman who is way more attractive both physically and personality-wise than he is? How realistic is that? So when he finds himself getting nowhere with her, well, I suppose it's easier to attribute his failing to her perverse preference for jerks."

 

I don't see the relevance of this statement here. I think we are talking about people who actually get to the point of seeing another person in a dating situation. If a beautiful lady accepts a date and begins to see a guy who is not equally attractive, the ball is already rolling...unless she has some pathetic using scenario in the back of her mind.

 

No average looking man who gets to the point of seeing a very attractive lady can fail on the basis of his looks alone. I am astounded at the number of drop-dead gorgeous females who don't consider themselves all that great looking. If he tries to be too nice to compensate for the disparity in attractiveness, yes, that can kill the deal.

 

I think the nice guy syndrome applies in a great majority of the cases and I'm not quite sure how you meant your above quoted statement to fit into this...although it may have some validity in another post at another time. But maybe I missed something. I just woke up.

[midori]

Originally posted by Tony

I don't see the relevance of this statement here. I think we are talking about people who actually get to the point of seeing another person in a dating situation. If a beautiful lady accepts a date and begins to see a guy who is not equally attractive, the ball is already rolling...unless she has some pathetic using scenario in the back of her mind.

 

Not always. I've heard it bandied about by men who are wondering abstractly why women always seem to go for jerks. In such cases the guy in question was talking about a female acquaintance or friend -- not someone he was dating but possibly someone he hoped to date -- and how this woman always picked jerks to date instead of nice guys. He then generalized to women more broadly, and sighed with the "nice guys finish last" bit of semi-self-pity. That kind of thinking doesn't help him because it doesn't really address the situation.

 

Obviously some women probably are attracted to jerks. Just as some men are attracted to jerks. Z_Man asked a general question, not a specific one (although it may have been inspired by a specific situation that he hasn't shared yet), so I could only respond on a general level.

 

Pat little bits of "conventional wisdom" often misrepresent the situation. In my experience as a woman, women don't typically go for men who are jerks. They go for men who are interesting. Being interesting is not about being unpredictable or selfish or putting your own needs first all the time. It's about being real, it's about being a person who has multiple facets and priorities.

 

One can be generally nice AND be very interesting. I know lots of people who are. But it's very hard to be Super Nice All the Time and still be interesting -- usually because being Super Nice requires one to be disingenuous. So if a man is, for some reason, compelled to be Super Nice All the Time to a woman, chances are that he's not going to get very far with her romantically. Not because women don't like considerate people who are often kind to them, but because people (not just women) enjoy the company of those who are comfortable enough with themselves and others to be relaxed and natural instead of hyper-careful and obsequious.

That's just how I see it. Maybe other women have different perspectives.

[Tony T]

Excellent and valid points as usual.

 

You still didn't address the physical attractiveness issue you raised, which I find some validy in, but still failed to understand why you brought it up here. But it makes no difference I suppose. It's information that can stand on its own merit.

 

YOU WROTE EARILIER: "Why is the "nice" guy fixing his interest on a woman who is way more attractive both physically and personality-wise than he is?"

 

In the context of the original post, he would have to be in some sort of tangible relationship with her in order to expose his "niceness." I think it's natural for every person to go for someone who is attractive to them. I don't think an average looking guy is going to go for a female JUST because she is attainable and not (also) because she is attractive to him. I do guess that there are some less attractive guys who only go for good looking gals...either it's an "opposites attract" thing or it's written in the astrological chart.

 

Now, if a male is overly nice to someone in order to gain their favor and begin a dating relationship, then you're treatise certainly kicks in at that point.

 

YOU ALSO WROTE: " How realistic is that? So when he finds himself getting nowhere with her, well, I suppose it's easier to attribute his failing to her perverse preference for jerks."

 

You are most likely correct. I have seen this happen. If a very attractive female rejects a guy who has been very nice to her, it's less hurtful to blame the "nice guys finish last" syndrome than it is for the guy to admit that she didn't find him sufficiently attractive.

 

To take this a step further, a woman sometimes has to get nasty with a male who is unrelenting in his efforts to gain her favor when she is not interested...and if he's been too nice, in some cases the female may feel guilty...but more often it just pisses her off even more.

 

You know I LOVE these "nice guy" threads!!!

[HokeyReligions]

"Nice" is nice, but I have to have someone who makes me laugh. "niceness" wanes after a while when comfort takes over. Comfort can sometimes turn into being taken for granted too.

 

When my husband and I were first dating, he used to hold the door for me, pull my chair out, ask me what I wanted before he made a suggestion, and he never farted in front of me!

 

I got tired of always being the decision maker once and told him I didn't give a rats a$$ what movie we saw, or where we went for dinner - I just told him to PICK SOMETHING he wanted to do because I wanted to learn more about the "real" him.

 

When he realized that I could have just as much fun doing the things he chose as doing the things I would choose, he loosened up. He also felt better about the relationship because it was more even. (& he began "airing his meals" in front of me - which, to this day, I tell him I never wanted him to go THAT far!)

[midori]

I raised overall attractiveness (of which physical attractiveness is only one component) in the context of the general, non-specific complaints that I have heard some guys make about women they have not dated, whom they accuse of prefering to go out with men who aren't "nice." Z_man wasn't specifc about his situation, so for all I know he is making a general observation that the women he likes never seem to reciprocate, and he's concluding that it's because he's too nice.

 

After all, a guy's niceness can be seen by his friends and acquaintances, co-workers, etc. One doesn't have to date a guy to have a sense of how nice/considerate/empathetic he is; in fact very often women become attracted to men they know as those qualities become apparent to them.

 

An overly nice guy who gets dumped for no good reason might well conclude that it's because he's too nice. He probably is. Or perhaps he's attracted to unstable or immature women who regularly dump guys no matter how nice they are or are not.

 

The point I've been driving at is that being nice, in and of itself, is not a handicap. Women, in general, do not prefer to date jerks. I'll even go so far as to say that women, in general, like men who are generally nice. But there has to be more to them than niceness!! If all that one can say about a guy is that he's nice, then he's almost certainly not going to hold a woman's interest for very long.

[Carly]

Z_man, you said:

 

"It seems women are non-responsive to guys who don't have a cocky arrogance."

 

Oh, if only you could see the arrogance in this opening statement. You give me (a woman, and therefore someone who you feel is only attracted to cocky arrogance) the impression that you understand all women, and that we are all flawed in judging character. Ouch!!

 

In the text of your post you describe yourself as "caring," "responsible," "sensitive," "sense of humor," "treat [women] with an utmost respect."

 

With the utmost of respect to you, your post sounds like you think very highly of yourself, and are perhaps even conceited.

 

I am not saying that I think you truly ARE conceited. It's just that you give this (probably false) impression to others. An impression that could drive women away, if you catch my drift...

 

What I am coming to learn (from my own mistakes and from watching other successes) is that people DO want goodness and respect from their partner, but they also want to see some humility, a little self-deprecation, and (above all else) some ownership over their own relationship problems.

 

I am not religious, but have you ever heard that old Shaker prayer that was turned into a children's song:

 

"Tis a gift to be simple,

tis a gift to be free,

tis a gift to come down where we ought to be.

And when we find ourselves in the place just right,

T'will be in the valley of love and delight".

 

Good luck, Z-man, in your search for love and delight!

[Z_man]

Ok, I wasn't trying to be self-congratulatory in my message. I was referring to making an effort to show the traits of 'sesitive' and 'caring'. Too many times I have seen women torn up inside, by guys the fell for and the guys push them away like stale leftovers. One of the problems is for alot of guys ( though not all), is that when things don't go ourways, we have a tendency to push the woman away and shut her out without communicating. It doesn't have to get this ugly. If more guys would make a concentrated effort to listen to what the woman is trying to say and incorporate her needs mixed in with the guy's needs, alot of the ugly discontent between partners can be relieved.

 

Listening to a woman's needs does not make one a doormat. I plan to balance the woman's needs while asserting my own needs for a relationship, where both partners can feel whole. I believe this mix would make a person more well-rounded person.

 

 

Carly, and to anyone else, I didn't mean to make it look like I owned the attributes, of 'caring' 'sensitive' and 'responsive to other's needs'. I meant that at least I and others guy do make an effort to express those traits. I don't hold myself above others, I need just as much self improvment and reflection as the next person.

 

The statement I made about women, though it does not apply to all women, does apply to alot of women. It is my own personal experience, in my own culture ( suburban white-middle class), though I would be confident that alot of other guys could vouch with similar experiences. I just lament becuase I see women cooning over guys, who are extremely atagonistic and rebuff the woman's attempts to get closer at every turn, they have a showy brovado about them that seems to be the core of their personality. When the relationships fail the women are left hurt and crushed. I just don't see the purpose in all this. I guess I don't get "it". Just how do these guy's attitudes translate into some sort of seduction?

[Kat]

My partner has to long term relationships before me. He is a nice guy, he has family values, morals, and wouldn't hurt a women. In those relationships he was walked over, and now knows exactly what he will accept and what he won't.

 

Compared to some of his mates who are arrogant and well, plain out there, he hasn't had as many women (nor does he cheat on his women like his mates do)as them.

 

My b/f is kind, sensitive, caring, and very very sweet. We were best mates first, and I saw him as only a mate and someone I could never go out with. As strange as it sound, we are totally mis-matched but get along fine.

 

I think the difference between him and you, is he has a min level of what he will put up with and what he won't. He sticks by that no matter what (yes he can take it too far and just be pig headed tho). But he doesn't do EVERYTHING to make me happy, but he does everything that I would expect, and a bit more.

 

 

You have to be sensitive, kind, romantic, and all that gooey nice guy stuff. BUt you have to have a level of what you will accept and know what you WON'T accept and make it clear

[Z_man]

Thanks Kat that was a very level-headed and insightful reply. I know what you mean. Trying too hard can be just as bad as not trying at all. Be more assertive and strive for balance. I just get frustrated some times and feel the need to vent to clear my chest, rather than let it boil inside.

[Kat]

I personally think talking is the better way. My partner however, does the run away and hide. We have to find a medium, and as we are finding a medium have to accept each others flaws when it comes to communication.

 

No relationship is perfect, but you can make them enjoyable and something you wouldn't give up for the world. It is just like anything, you have to work at it, and help it bloom.

 

I don't think it is that you can't find a girl because you are a sensitive guy, you haven't found the right women who compliments you perfectly and make a match worth fighting for.