To The BS's - Don't Blame The OW

[LucreziaBorgia]

So OldEurope' date=' after your much words in your posting, was your point that you agree with the premise of the OP: its the BS (BWs) fault that they were cheated on?[/quote']

 

I don't know that OE thinks that in general, but perhaps in some cases - in an older thread its apparent that she felt that way about her MM's W, and her part in the demise of their marriage.

 

Even though their marriage sounded really bad, and destined for divorce even without OE in the picture - I still don't think that his W deserved to be cheated on. I can't think of anyone who deserves to be cheated on, though you'll probably see more than a few people say that OW who end up with someone else's husband deserves to be cheated on herself. I don't agree with that either, but I can see how someone would think that. If a person makes a marriage a living hell, they still don't deserve to be cheated on. Divorced, maybe... but cheated on? Nah.

 

I would think that an OW who becomes a BS - or finds that her MM has found an OOW sometimes rethinks the whole 'blame the BS' thing. Human nature I guess. When you find yourself in a given situation, you adapt your beliefs according to what works for you and what doesn't.

[NoIDidn't]

LB, I respect your thoughts that you don't think that the OW that ends up with the MM deserves to be cheated on. I won't say that I disagree, just that history has a habit of repeating itself and if she is cheated on by the man she got by helping him cheat, most people think it her just desserts or reaping what she sowed.

 

Of a truth, I guess that is just another form of "blaming" the "victim" of the cheating yet again. But I can't say that my thoughts/feelings about it change because of that realization because a R that started out deceitfully is likely to suffer from the same.

 

I guess no one is going to feel sorry for the W that gets cheated on for not respecting her H (at least as a person). I do know those Ws exist. But definitely no one is going to feel sorry for the OW that gets her man and he cheats on her too. Its the starting points of the Rs that differentiate between the two.

[reboot]

Many of us would call that karma.

[Havn_a_life]

I know several Ms where one spouse was more involved in the M than the other, to the point of being the sole one who held the M together, the other half just along for the ride and not putting much of any effort in it other than the lip service of ILY and family functions, etc.

[KenzieAbsolutely]

Many of us would call that karma.

 

if the OW was to be cheated on by the MM that divorced his wife for her, she would obviously understand that she just wasn't making him happy, and it's no one's fault but her own. so i don't think she would get very angry or blame her husband and/or his new OW, because even as the OW, she knows it will be her fault when she is the BW...right?

 

[Je Ne Regrette Rien]

if the OW was to be cheated on by the MM that divorced his wife for her, she would obviously understand that she just wasn't making him happy, and it's no one's fault but her own. so i don't think she would get very angry or blame her husband and/or his new OW, because even as the OW, she knows it will be her fault when she is the BW...right?

 

 

You see, being an OW is a very good lesson in forever. That forever is a very hard thing to promise and forever is very hard thing to predict. It gives a level of understanding of what forever means. I dont believe my MM to be a cakeeater. I wouldnt think cheating would be solely my fault, sure, I would be hurt after all of the situations we have been in, that he wouldnt be able to share infidelity openly - because we both know that can happen. But thats just me.

 

I would just try to understand, and I guess for all of us, understanding is a positive tool that affairs force us to use in many areas

[Ladyjane14]

...there are marriages which are a farce. A sham. Horrible for both individuals involved, or one who is doing all the pulling.

 

Whose place is it to JUDGE those marriages?

 

This is another one of the utterly incomprehensible hypocrisies that just keep me flabbergasted whenever I read in this forum. It's right there in the thread title... "Don't Blame the OW", and yet as a justification for her WILLING participation in a deception perpetrated upon another human being... she "judges" or "blames" the state of someone else's marriage... and usually without sufficient evidence.

 

When a marriage is over... we call that DIVORCE. That's how you know when a marriage is truly dead. It's not enough that one of it's participants puts a time of death on it. S/he has to have the courage to actually end it, because until that time, the marriage does not belong to just the one person.

 

Again, I agree with Trimmer... marriage is a big neon sign that says, "Hand's off". Nobody who respects that "sign" will involve themselves to the degree where they become emotionally hurt or NEED a forum for advice or support.

The problem is neatly avoided simply by respecting other people and their right to believe in the institution of marriage whether YOU personally believe in it or not. People who don't believe in marriage usually don't get married, and those who change their beliefs after the fact get divorced.

 

 

 

Much as Herzen has reminded us, the emotional reaction to infatuation and lust is POWERFUL. It leads people to rationalize choices which would have been previously unsustainable. It leads people to hypocrisy. It leads people to, as Serial Muse has said... be untrue to who they are, thus diminishing themselves.

 

Sometimes people just want what they want SO BAD that they're willing to lie to whoever it takes to get it.... until they've changed in ways they couldn't have previously imagined or countenanced. They literally become a different person than the one they set out to be. Because they've made the fatal error of lying to THEMSELVES.

 

Personally, I feel no pity for those who have none to give, those who are so narcissistic in their character traits that they serve themselves first and foremost always. But for those folks who find themselves twisting their personal values like a pretzel in order to justify their actions... who do you think you're ultimately fooling?

 

If you haven't guessed yet... it's YOU. Because you end up being somebody you never intended to be and can't genuinely respect.

 

It's not important that you have the respect of strangers. It's your OWN respect that you need. No 'ifs' 'ands' or 'buts'... you'll never be truly happy without it.

 

 

(p.s. to NID... thanks for the assist back there. You had it just right. )

[Herzen]

Whose place is it to JUDGE those marriages?

 

This is another one of the utterly incomprehensible hypocrisies that just keep me flabbergasted whenever I read in this forum. It's right there in the thread title... "Don't Blame the OW", and yet as a justification for her WILLING participation in a deception perpetrated upon another human being... she "judges" or "blames" the state of someone else's marriage... and usually without sufficient evidence.

 

When a marriage is over... we call that DIVORCE. That's how you know when a marriage is truly dead. It's not enough that one of it's participants puts a time of death on it. S/he has to have the courage to actually end it, because until that time, the marriage does not belong to just the one person.

 

Again, I agree with Trimmer... marriage is a big neon sign that says, "Hand's off". Nobody who respects that "sign" will involve themselves to the degree where they become emotionally hurt or NEED a forum for advice or support.

The problem is neatly avoided simply by respecting other people and their right to believe in the institution of marriage whether YOU personally believe in it or not. People who don't believe in marriage usually don't get married, and those who change their beliefs after the fact get divorced.

 

 

 

Much as Herzen has reminded us, the emotional reaction to infatuation and lust is POWERFUL. It leads people to rationalize choices which would have been previously unsustainable. It leads people to hypocrisy. It leads people to, as Serial Muse has said... be untrue to who they are, thus diminishing themselves.

 

Sometimes people just want what they want SO BAD that they're willing to lie to whoever it takes to get it.... until they've changed in ways they couldn't have previously imagined or countenanced. They literally become a different person than the one they set out to be. Because they've made the fatal error of lying to THEMSELVES.

 

Personally, I feel no pity for those who have none to give, those who are so narcissistic in their character traits that they serve themselves first and foremost always. But for those folks who find themselves twisting their personal values like a pretzel in order to justify their actions... who do you think you're ultimately fooling?

 

If you haven't guessed yet... it's YOU. Because you end up being somebody you never intended to be and can't genuinely respect.

 

It's not important that you have the respect of strangers. It's your OWN respect that you need. No 'ifs' 'ands' or 'buts'... you'll never be truly happy without it.

 

 

(p.s. to NID... thanks for the assist back there. You had it just right. )

 

As someone who lied to himself and loved ones, who went over to the dark side, who rejected his wife and marriage for the lure of the Affair (much to my regret and that of my wife and family), I can attest that you speak the truth, LJ.

 

A bad marriage is never justification for an affair.If a bad marriage was truly a justification, there would be no need for the lies, the deception the dishonesty. The WS would simply tell his spouse that he's going to fu#k the OW because he's justified in doing so.

 

The lies we tell ourselves (and others) for self-validation.

 

A great post, ladyjane.

[Ladyjane14]

As someone who lied to himself and loved ones, who went over to the dark side, who rejected his wife and marriage for the lure of the Affair (much to my regret and that of my wife and family), I can attest that you speak the truth, LJ.

 

A bad marriage is never justification for an affair.If a bad marriage was truly a justification, there would be no need for the lies, the deception the dishonesty. The WS would simply tell his spouse that he's going to fu#k the OW because he's justified in doing so.

 

The lies we tell ourselves (and others) for self-validation.

 

A great post, ladyjane.

 

Thanks Herzen. I think too often we don't put enough emphasis on just how strong these feelings of infatuation and lust can be. There just aren't words big enough to describe it. Although, your previous post was 'pert near'.

 

You know, I cheated on every guy before my husband, bar none. And even though that was more than 25 years ago, I still remember how easy it is to tell yourself EXACTLY what it is you most want to hear.

[Havn_a_life]

I don't know if this is relivant or not, but as an example, I've always heard that the ones who've been through the hard times, like drinkers, druggies, etc, and made it, they make the best preachers because they've been through it all and can actually talk to someone with those kinds of life problems. They can relate, therefore give the best help for them to recover and lead a better life for themselves.

 

I think the same can be said of people who've been through an A, the MP or OP and "saw the light".

Does that make sense?

[Herzen]

Thanks Herzen. I think too often we don't put enough emphasis on just how strong these feelings of infatuation and lust can be. There just aren't words big enough to describe it. Although, your previous post was 'pert near'.

 

You know, I cheated on every guy before my husband, bar none. And even though that was more than 25 years ago, I still remember how easy it is to tell yourself EXACTLY what it is you most want to hear.

 

That's why I'm increasingly favoring the "cold water" or "slap in the face" post, which attempts to awaken the WS from his or her erotic trance and obsession. These "strike" posts are not moralistic. Rather, these posts attempt to educate the WS about his/her self-deception and the great harm they're causing loved ones in love's name.

 

That's the evil thing about affairs: they hurt the most those who love us the most.

[NoIDidn't]

LJ, you are quite welcome.

 

I knew what you meant.

[Herzen]

I don't know if this is relivant or not, but as an example, I've always heard that the ones who've been through the hard times, like drinkers, druggies, etc, and made it, they make the best preachers because they've been through it all and can actually talk to someone with those kinds of life problems. They can relate, therefore give the best help for them to recover and lead a better life for themselves.

 

I think the same can be said of people who've been through an A, the MP or OP and "saw the light".

Does that make sense?

 

Well, it makes sense as to some of the Shack's alpha posters on affairs: ladyjane, lucretia borgia. Those women own this topic.

[Havn_a_life]

I'm not saying I only agree with the ones who have the same opinion as myself. It's just that, the ones you gave as examples, they seem to have some really good points. You know they've BTDT.

They sometimes say exactly what I can't put into words. I'm not all that good at being tactful either.

[Herzen]

I'm not saying I only agree with the ones who have the same opinion as myself. It's just that, the ones you gave as examples, they seem to have some really good points. You know they've BTDT.

They sometimes say exactly what I can't put into words. I'm not all that good at being tactful either.

 

 

Well, "tact" is overrated, here. This is a public message board.

 

Say what you think and just try not to be mean. Which, at times, is easier said than done--especially on this flash point topic.

[lost4ever]

You and you alone are to blame for yours and nobody else's actions. We can not make people love us, we can not make people fall out of love with us, we can not make people be faithful and we can not make people stray... If My husband cheats on me, he cheated...HE CHEATED, that is it...his fault....not my fault, not the other womens fault...HIS. same goes with me if I cheat.....MY FAULT. If my husband beats me.....HE BEAT ME...his fault...not mine....If I am late to work...I am late to work..it is my fault, not my husband who didn't set the alarm, not my child who couldn't find there cheerleading uniform...MY FAULT...what is so hard to understand about this concept? You may not like the inpact other people's actions have on your well being, but that would be YOUR faut, YOU let them have that impact on you

[NoIDidn't]

Lost4ever

 

While I agree in concept with what you are saying, to whom are you addressing this comment?

 

The OP, who is an OW, feels that the A is always the betrayed's fault. It seems like you are saying that its not the betrayed's fault, but that they shouldn't whine about it?

 

Is that it?

[lost4ever]

It's not addressed to anyone.....(know matter what part you played in the R) And no, I don't mind whinning either...it hurts like hell, let it out....just don't blame...

 

MM cheats with OW--not the other womens fault for being there

MM cheats with OW-- Not wifes fault she got fat (or whatever)

MM cheats with OW-- It is HIS fault/ his choice

 

MM cheats with OW/ Leaves wife-- Not wife's fault for not being good enough/ not OW fault for being there--He Left becuase HE LEFT

MM cheats with OW/ stays with wife-- Not OW fault for not being good enough/ not Wifes fault for being "great" he stayed because HE STAYED...

I guess what I am saying is, I have dated wonderful men, Just didn't have the feeling....sometimes I wished so hard I had that feeling but didn't

and sometimes I have dated less than wonderful men, and had that feeling...and I would pray I wouldn't have that feeling....It was still my choice to stay or go (hope this makes since, having a really hard time putting my point in words)

[silktricks]

It's not addressed to anyone.....(know matter what part you played in the R) And no, I don't mind whinning either...it hurts like hell, let it out....just don't blame...

 

MM cheats with OW--not the other womens fault for being there

MM cheats with OW-- Not wifes fault she got fat (or whatever)

MM cheats with OW-- It is HIS fault/ his choice

 

MM cheats with OW/ Leaves wife-- Not wife's fault for not being good enough/ not OW fault for being there--He Left becuase HE LEFT

MM cheats with OW/ stays with wife-- Not OW fault for not being good enough/ not Wifes fault for being "great" he stayed because HE STAYED...

I guess what I am saying is, I have dated wonderful men, Just didn't have the feeling....sometimes I wished so hard I had that feeling but didn't

and sometimes I have dated less than wonderful men, and had that feeling...and I would pray I wouldn't have that feeling....It was still my choice to stay or go (hope this makes since, having a really hard time putting my point in words)

Just out of curiosity, would you say the OP had any responsibility (notice I do not use the word fault, but rather responsibility) for the affair if he/she was the initiator in each forward step towards the affair?

 

It's still MP's responsibility for engaging, of course.

[underpants]

I guess what I am saying is, I have dated wonderful men, Just didn't have the feeling....sometimes I wished so hard I had that feeling but didn't

and sometimes I have dated less than wonderful men, and had that feeling...and I would pray I wouldn't have that feeling....It was still my choice to stay or go (hope this makes since, having a really hard time putting my point in words)

 

That is interesting. Would you consider that perhaps you might be attracted to 'unavailable men'?

 

Have you addressed that possibility, and even gone further to examine the root causes of such?

[Meaplus3]

Straight to the point IMO! If theres an attraction , then something is NOT at ALL right! Fix it, figure it out whatever? In my situation If I had these thought's from the get go, I would have saved myself and other's a ton of heartache! My best to you!

 

 

AP:)

[IpAncA]

It's their fault for ever trusting anyone in the first place? What a cynical view (although I'm unfortunately starting to agree with it).

 

I was being sarcastic Reboot.

[lost4ever]

Just out of curiosity, would you say the OP had any responsibility (notice I do not use the word fault, but rather responsibility) for the affair if he/she was the initiator in each forward step towards the affair?

It's still MP's responsibility for engaging, of course. Hummm, I see where you are going with this, and I really don't know...I must take time to ponder...

 

 

That is interesting. Would you consider that perhaps you might be attracted to 'unavailable men'?

Have you addressed that possibility, and even gone further to examine the root causes of such Yeah I'm like that because my daddy was mean to me and I do not believe I am worthy of good things in my life, no seriously...I said I had relationships like that...didn;t say all or most. and I ended up marrying a wonderful man---didn't work out, and I do have issues, just don't think it is the one your looking at...

[silktricks]

I do have issues, just don't think it is the one your looking at...

 

issues ---- hmmmm yup that souds pretty normal

[lost4ever]

This is way off topic silk, where is the the avar pic from????? do you know what mountain?