Everybody Knows Christ

[Moose]

I meant we could agree on it because both atheists and christians don't believe in reincarnation.

 

So that if you saw my point there, you might see what my point is in the other example.

 

Sorry if it was unclear.

Now I got ya......sorry about that....

[Moai]

What is a fallacy to you may not be a fallacy to everyone. A fallacy is a false belief, no?

 

No.

 

"A fallacy is a component of an that is demonstrably flawed in its or form, thus rendering the argument in whole.

 

It's subjective. So you say it's correct merely because that person with their critical thinking shares the same belief as you. That doesn't mean you're correct. It just means you're on the same wavelength as someone else.

 

Nope. A falacy is the same for everyone, everywhere. For example, an argument ad populum is the fallacy that the popularity of an idea is indicative of its truth. Millions of people believing in magnet therapy is not evidence that magnet therapy actually works. It doesn't, by the way.

 

Another popular fallacy is the argument ad ignorantium, or argument form ignorance. This fallacy rests of the idea that something is true simply because it hasn't been proven false. "You can't prove god didn't do x, therefore god did x."

 

Same as me. You and I may have different beliefs on a notion or idea but I can find someone who shares my idea too. It doesn't make it more right than your idea or vice versa.

 

Another example of the argument ad populum.

 

All it makes them is different.

 

No, it just means that certain ideas may be popular, or not.

 

But that is why it is difficult to argue beliefs on religion. Believers believe based on the proof we have and non-believers try to find logical explanations on how creation began.

 

But that is just it: you don't have any proof. Personal revelation is not proof of anything (look up what solipsism is), and every explanation involving god can either be shown to be fallacious, or at beest unknowable.

 

This is demonstrable from the simple fact that there are many forms of god-belief, almost all of which are contradictory, yet each is asserted to be accurate.

 

All religions cannot possibly be right, but they can all be wrong.

 

It's a fruitless battle actually. A waste of time. Stating my POV on why I believe in God won't change your POV and you stating your POV to me won't make me see it your way.

 

I am open to evidence for god, I just haven't seen any. If you choose to be dogmatic about something that you really have no way of knowing, that is certainly your right.

[Moai]

Sure there is. The Scripture that I subscribe to clearly defines Christ as God Himself. No others do. And if you refute that....then you are clearly proving the OP correct to assume that Christ is fictional, which proves He's clearly an object in your mind, fictional or not.

 

The question is to the statement of "everyone" knowing Christ. I certainly do, as I was a believer once and have read the Bible before. But "everyone" doesn't live in a Christian country, and have not been exposed to "Christ" as such. More people aren't Christian than are.

 

Not only that, even amongst people who believe that Jesus existed do not agree on his divinity.

 

Do you get the just of this thread yet?Really? Dead Sea Scrolls? Ancient Roman Empire? Galgotha? What about the recent "Lost Tomb of Jesus" presentation recently aired? Even your team is looking for Him...

 

Team? What team? If someone wants to go looking for the tomb of Jesus that is his problem. Finding such wouldn't prove anything one way or the other, would it?

 

I am not sure what the Dead Sea Scrolls are evidence of, except maybe that papyrus will survive a long time in pottery in cave in a dry climate. The Dead Sea Scrolls are copies of the Torah, some of which agree with our current text and others that don't.

 

What does the Roman Empire have to do with anything?

 

YET. Same as anything scientists search for. Isn't that the whole basis that science is riding on right now? And has historically been riding on? Come on....even Pure Sugar has been proven bad for us, then good for us, then great for us, then bad AGAIN for us according to scientists.....

 

I hadn't heard about the sugar thing. I'll look it up, of course. The basis that science rides on is that everything has a naturalistic explanation.

 

I'm not saying that these discoveries aren't instrumental in our well being....I'm just saying....(for you Otter), that there is no POSSIBLE way to exclude the, "Uncaused, first Cause" that Has all of these answers......

 

Sure there is: inifinite regress.

 

(Side note, I only expect a few to understand what I just typed)You already have....and openly rejected it.Obviously, Biblical Scholars carry absolute no merit with you, so why compile a list?

 

I didn't know what you meant by "scholars". Thanks for clarifying. And yes, I hold no truck with theologists. First demonstrate that there is something to discuss, then I'll read it. Its interesting that Oxford University may be dismantling their theology department.

 

According to a report in The Times (19 September), "Wycliffe Hall and other theological establishments "could risk losing their Oxford University licences altogether". This follows a review that concludes that what is on offer at Wycliffe Hall "does not resemble an Oxford experience in its essentials" and is not "a suitable educational environment for the full intellectual development of young undergraduates"." --

 

 

I believe I covered this one....if not, let me know....

 

You have listed several scientists who are also Christian, but you have not addressed how, if all evidence leads to god, some scientists would be Muslim or Hindu.

 

Interesting answer. One that I won't be around for.......bummer deal man.

 

That's true. I'll take care of your pets if you want!

 

That's kinda funny actually....thanks!

 

It is funny. But it really would make me re-evaluate my position on a number of different things, believe you me!

 

Is this where I should ask who's calling the kettle black? Seriously? The reason I ask is because I TRULY stir away from doing so.....but in this case it's so obvious....what to do?

 

Your belief in god, and assertions about same are not falsifiable.

 

Seriously....what to do?Allow me to witness your creation of your own universe out of absolutely nothing.

 

I don't know how the Universe as we know it came to be. Nobody does. I am certain that magic was not involved, though. The lack of an explanation does not make your magical one correct by default, of course.

[nittygritty]

Where, anywhere, do I say that science is worthless? I love science! Science is a window to God......how many times do I have to say that??

 

"Science is a window to God"

 

Thanks Moose, that sums it up perfectly and I completely agree.

[a4a]

That window is often nailed shut because of religion..........

 

Stem cell research is one of those many windows religion would like to nail shut.

[nittygritty]

That window is often nailed shut because of religion..........

 

Stem cell research is one of those many windows religion would like to nail shut.

 

 

Thats money and greedy politicians nailing windows shut, not religion.

 

I'm pro choice. I'm also for stem cell research and I'm a christian.

 

When I see Michael Moore on Oprah talking about christianity and using it as a reason for the need for socialized medicine because its the "christian thing to do" it does not make me agree with his solution to that problem.

[JamesM]

 

If something moves outside of our comprehension of time... what would make the idea that that something is eternal more reasonable than that it would be unexistent?

 

Here is where the philosophical arguments that lead in circles come in play. Neither disprove or prove anything.

 

For that matter, who says that this world has been here for more than my lifetime or your lifetime? Think of the movie Truman's World. ALL of the evidences and history are simply here so that we THINK the world has been here for more than a hundred years or so...if even that long. My father and mother? Created so that I might think this world has been here for a long time. Who is to say that anything beyond my lifetime ever happened? As far as I am concerned...and this we CAN agree on, when I die, this world ends for me. When I was born, this world began for me. The question becomes...does my life end or is there life after death? And no matter what anyone else believes, what happens to me is my responsibility.

 

And who is to say that the Universe is endless? Oh, those measurements? That is so that we THINK it is endless.

 

And how do I know that this whole forum is not just one person who makes me THINK that there are a lot of people out there? Who knows.

 

So goes reason after awhile. That is why so many arguments are fruitless.

[KenzieAbsolutely]

Thats money and greedy politicians nailing windows shut, not religion.

 

 

but the politicians use religion to shut the window, which should not, by ANY means, be allowed EVER in government matters. not sure how they get away with that exactly, what with the separation and all.

 

good post, though, nittygritty, it's nice to see another outlook here once in a while.

[KenzieAbsolutely]

Here is where the philosophical arguments that lead in circles come in play. Neither disprove or prove anything.

 

For that matter, who says that this world has been here for more than my lifetime or your lifetime? Think of the movie Truman's World. ALL of the evidences and history are simply here so that we THINK the world has been here for more than a hundred years or so...if even that long. My father and mother? Created so that I might think this world has been here for a long time. Who is to say that anything beyond my lifetime ever happened? As far as I am concerned...and this we CAN agree on, when I die, this world ends for me. When I was born, this world began for me. The question becomes...does my life end or is there life after death? And no matter what anyone else believes, what happens to me is my responsibility.

 

And who is to say that the Universe is endless? Oh, those measurements? That is so that we THINK it is endless.

 

And how do I know that this whole forum is not just one person who makes me THINK that there are a lot of people out there? Who knows.

 

So goes reason after awhile. That is why so many arguments are fruitless.

 

 

i thought i was the only one who ever thought like this about things sometimes. do you give yourself a headache too?

[nittygritty]

but the politicians use religion to shut the window, which should not, by ANY means, be allowed EVER in government matters. not sure how they get away with that exactly, what with the separation and all.

 

good post, though, nittygritty, it's nice to see another outlook here once in a while.

 

Thanks, and I agree. I don't know how they get away with it either but they do.

[a4a]

but the politicians use religion to shut the window, which should not, by ANY means, be allowed EVER in government matters. not sure how they get away with that exactly, what with the separation and all.

 

good post, though, nittygritty, it's nice to see another outlook here once in a while.

 

It is not just politicians - that are seeking support.

 

The majority of anti abortion/ anti stem cell people state it is for religious reasons...... most of the people protesting are not politicians.

 

Out of all these anti abortion/ anti stem cell - very few are actual politicians seeking office.

 

Gritty is an exception to the rule.

 

 

 

- if I attended a church that was anti abortion, gave money to that church, identified myself with that church..... I am a supporter of their views and actions?

[Moose]

I too am for stem cell research. Just not with aborted babies......breakthroughs are happening with Adult stem cells, and stem cells in the new born baby's chord.....(sorry don't know how to spell umbillibum.....or whatever......lol).....

- if I attended a church that was anti abortion, gave money to that church, identified myself with that church..... I am a supporter of their views and actions?

That's a good question!!

 

Personally, I'd say no. Simply because there are a lot of things my Church does that I don't personally agree with.

 

Furthermore, I don't think anyone can honestly say that they agree with everything their Church stands for....

[JamesM]

Stem cell research is one of those many windows religion would like to nail shut.

 

First a side note...I think the only way a thread survives a long time is if it goes off topic.

 

Clarification of this...and I see both sides of the issue and have not made a solid decision on either side...but the discussion is not about stem cell research, it is about embryo stem cell research. Adult stem cell research is acceptable to all sides, because a life is not eliminated.

[nittygritty]

First a side note...I think the only way a thread survives a long time is if it goes off topic.

 

Clarification of this...and I see both sides of the issue and have not made a solid decision on either side...but the discussion is not about stem cell research, it is about embryo stem cell research. Adult stem cell research is acceptable to all sides, because a life is not eliminated.

 

 

Is the issue about intentionally creating embryos to destroy and study? I would think that the majority of people would be opposed to that regardless of whether they had any religious beliefs. It could be that there is a fear of that happening and that is what is "nailing that window shut".

[lovelorcet]

intentionally creating embryos to destroy

 

in vitro fertilization is used all the time by fertility clinics. This means multiple eggs are fertilized in a dish and some of those eggs are frozen down and some of those eggs are placed into the mother.

 

So does this mean that these clinics have millions of souls frozen down, i dont think so... An embryo is not a life, it is a cell that has the potential to become a life when placed into a womb.

[nittygritty]

in vitro fertilization is used all the time by fertility clinics. This means multiple eggs are fertilized in a dish and some of those eggs are frozen down and some of those eggs are placed into the mother.

 

So does this mean that these clinics have millions of souls frozen down, i dont think so... An embryo is not a life, it is a cell that has the potential to become a life when placed into a womb.

 

I agree (to a certain extent) but try to sell it to voters.

 

Where will the line in the sand be? Creating perfect humans?

 

Hammering down the details of what can and can't be done would be difficult.

[Moai]

I too am for stem cell research. Just not with aborted babies......breakthroughs are happening with Adult stem cells, and stem cells in the new born baby's chord.....(sorry don't know how to spell umbillibum.....or whatever......lol)..... That's a good question!!

 

Personally, I'd say no. Simply because there are a lot of things my Church does that I don't personally agree with.

 

Furthermore, I don't think anyone can honestly say that they agree with everything their Church stands for....

 

Moose, believer or not, you rule!

 

Let me say that you have got to be the least dogmatic Protestant believer that I have encountered online. You are certailny staunch in your faith, and while I do not share it I admire your candor and openness in sharing it, and your ability to give constructive criticism and accept it--and show a rather good sense of humor.

 

You are an example to believers everywhere.

 

I salute you amigo!

[a4a]

I too am for stem cell research. Just not with aborted babies......breakthroughs are happening with Adult stem cells, and stem cells in the new born baby's chord.....(sorry don't know how to spell umbillibum.....or whatever......lol)..... That's a good question!!

 

Personally, I'd say no. Simply because there are a lot of things my Church does that I don't personally agree with.

 

Furthermore, I don't think anyone can honestly say that they agree with everything their Church stands for....

 

So If I wear a white sheet and pointy white hat and attend my local klan meetings but don't agree with everything they stand for I am not really supporting their actions/ideas/principles? cool.

[a4a]

in vitro fertilization is used all the time by fertility clinics. This means multiple eggs are fertilized in a dish and some of those eggs are frozen down and some of those eggs are placed into the mother.

 

So does this mean that these clinics have millions of souls frozen down, i dont think so... An embryo is not a life, it is a cell that has the potential to become a life when placed into a womb.

 

I have always wondered that if a baby is considered a gift from a god and you are not granted that gift is that not gods will and should not be questioned? IVF is therefore wrong?

 

frozen embryos are ok to use but not aborted babies?

[DutchGuy]

I have always wondered that if a baby is considered a gift from a god and you are not granted that gift is that not gods will and should not be questioned? IVF is therefore wrong?

 

frozen embryos are ok to use but not aborted babies?

 

You would think that god could have foreseen these issues and that he could have made some clear rules on the topic.

Or that at least church leaders can ask god what his opinion is.

 

I get the feeling there is a lot of miscommunication between god and the people.

 

Like those frauds that talk to spirits...

At first:"Is there a R in the name? R or AR? a T? TO, TA, TU? Brett? Bill?

And then:"you husband says he will always be with you and he's proud of the children"

[Moose]

Moose, believer or not, you rule!

 

Let me say that you have got to be the least dogmatic Protestant believer that I have encountered online. You are certailny staunch in your faith, and while I do not share it I admire your candor and openness in sharing it, and your ability to give constructive criticism and accept it--and show a rather good sense of humor.

 

You are an example to believers everywhere.

 

I salute you amigo!

Wow....thanks Moai. Coming from you, that's just got me speachless.....

So If I wear a white sheet and pointy white hat and attend my local klan meetings but don't agree with everything they stand for I am not really supporting their actions/ideas/principles? cool.

Lol....that's a little extreme....and not what I meant...

I have always wondered that if a baby is considered a gift from a god and you are not granted that gift is that not gods will and should not be questioned? IVF is therefore wrong?

Not everyone can handle these sort of gifts....

[a4a]

Moose actually it is not all that extreme.

 

If you are attending and giving money to a church that you do not agree with and they lets say have rigid ideas and use that money to attempt to change laws or influence society with your money and your support as a member - you are participating in something you do not believe in.

 

So I am not a racist but I like the company of my klan friends. I dig hanging out on Sat night and the big bonfire we have..... I pay my monthly klan dues. My money is still being used to finance hatred even though I don't really agree with that aspect of my klan club. I am also still counted as a member of the klan collective and that is also used.

 

So I don't understand why people that are pro choice, are more liberal in their views, or just don't agree with what their clubs, church, or organization stands for in principle and policy.... why participate with those orgs if you are not in agreement with their policies. - not pointed to Moose specifically....

 

pro choice catholics really confuse me.......

[Moose]

If you are attending and giving money to a church that you do not agree with and they lets say have rigid ideas and use that money to attempt to change laws or influence society with your money and your support as a member - you are participating in something you do not believe in.

On the contrary.....our tithe is designated to go where we specify. It is the responsibilty of the Church to ensure it's distributed accordingly. If they use it for something else......I'm not accountable for that in God's eyes, my Pastor is.

So I am not a racist but I like the company of my klan friends. I dig hanging out on Sat night and the big bonfire we have..... I pay my monthly klan dues. My money is still being used to finance hatred even though I don't really agree with that aspect of my klan club. I am also still counted as a member of the klan collective and that is also used.

AH...but see....this "klan" is founded on hatred. The very thing you're against. So I hardly doubt you'd become a member anyways. You'd most likely look for a "sect" of the, "klan" that you can participate in that isn't so radical about the, "hatred" part of the cult, but more for the bon-fire and hanging out ritual(s) instead.

 

But....for the sake of this arguement, I'll give you an example...we have 3....maybe 4 unmarried pregnant,"women"....(more like teenagers), in our congregation. Clearly against what I believe in, and clearly not a good example for unsaved teens....

 

Our Pastor hasn't counceled them, or at the very least have them go in front of the congregation and explain themselves.....well, I take that back, one did, but she went up with her entire family, (VERY long time members), and basically admitted that she tried to run away from God, and God chased her down.

 

No apologies, no explainations, no testimony about what she did wrong. Just that God is the one that brought her back to her senses. This all may be true, but it doesn't make what she did right for the body of Christ.

 

In my eyes, she should publically repent, get counceling, then work in our teen program(s) to hopefully prevent this sort of thing from happening again to edify the body of Christ.

 

Soooo.....in a sense, I'm a member of a Church that allows their teens to go out and have pre-marital sex, have babies out of wedlock, and not be held accountable for it......

 

Do I agree with it? No....I don't. And God knows that. So who cares what my neighbor thinks about it?

[a4a]

Moose you are not hearing me and that is ok.

 

and you have to be christian to join the klan...... I can't join.

 

It was founded on the belief of religious superiority and white superiority.

 

not hate.... they just know they are better than the rest of us and like to point that out to us.

[Moose]

Moose you are not hearing me and that is ok.

 

and you have to be christian to join the klan...... I can't join.

 

It was founded on the belief of religious superiority and white superiority.

 

not hate.... they just know they are better than the rest of us and like to point that out to us.

I thought you were just being hypothetical.....

I don't know spit about the, "klan"....couldn't care less....