To all the OW who think they are number one...

[Havn_a_life]

Yes. I demand honesty in a partner. I would hate to be in his W's position and have him lie to me and lead me on with false hope, when he'd made up his mind and was acting on that. I'd rather know the truth, where I stood, so that I could get my own life in order rather than living in a soap bubble.

 

Buckle up, honey, cause if you get your man, you're in for a ride, and it ain't gonna be all candy and giggles, either.

[Havn_a_life]

WWIU he didn't phone in front of her. She went and locked herself in the bathroom, and wouldn't come out. After trying to talk to her through the locked door, or persuade her to come out, eventually he went outside into the garden to phone me. There's no way she could have heard.

 

.

 

I thought you said she could be heard wailing and crying while you were talking with him on the phone?

[OWoman]

The odds are completely against you and MM's relationship working. For starters your a serial OW and he'll be divorced with kids.

 

The odds of ME having a successful relationship AT ALL are pretty remote but for some bizarre reason MM and I have just clicked in some unforeseeable way. He's willing to take the risk although he has everything to lose. And me? Well, if it all comes crashing down at least I'll be able to say that I did fall in love, once, had my heart broken and lived to tell the tale. Maybe I could write some country & western songs, or a best-selling novel, from the experience? Or wait, someone on the other thread called it a soap opera, maybe I should go for that!

[Havn_a_life]

 

He called me to say he loves me. I could hear her wailing and sobbing in the background. I just hope she doesn't do anything stupid in front of the kids.

 

I believe this is the post...

[Havn_a_life]

I'm sorry your experience of step-parenting was such a nightmare. Mine was a pleasure cruise. Those kids are long out of the house, but we still have a wonderful relationship. It doesn't HAVE to be a nightmare.

 

Where did you go wrong since your last MM, then?

[Touche]

What I don't get is that so many of the Ow's on here, including OW woman seem like basically nice women. Fun, smart and together. WHY, why do they settle in their love lives? That's the thing I don't get. I'm not known for my high self esteem, and I'm not any more intelligent than most, but in a million years I couldn't and wouldn't settle for this kind of "backseat" relationship. Why do you guys do it?

 

OW, you made me laugh with the whole country song thing. And I respect that you took what some of us have had to say to you without going crazy. You show a lot of good qualities. But then, you show another side too. One I can't understand.

 

If I had a man calling me and I heard his wife sobbing in the background, wow. There's no way, I could sleep at night after that. I would always be thinking about her pain before my pleasure. I couldn't do it. Why is it that some of you can? How do you sleep at night? And I'm asking that without trying to be a bitch. I just don't know how you can. You seem like such a good woman, all of this aside. I can tell.

 

So why? Why is this man worth it to you?

[Havn_a_life]

I think there's alot to be said of a person, man or woman, who can hear that and not feel bad, to just blow it off and still want to be with a person who can do that to another human being.

I would be worried I would be next.

 

But, then, I don't have a R with a MM, other than the man I'm M to.

[OpenBook]

And I'm asking that without trying to be a bitch. I just don't know how you can. You seem like such a good woman, all of this aside. I can tell.

 

So why? Why is this man worth it to you?

 

Because she's in love with him. Haven't you ever been in love?

[OWoman]

What I don't get is that so many of the Ow's on here, including OW woman seem like basically nice women. Fun, smart and together. WHY, why do they settle in their love lives? That's the thing I don't get. I'm not known for my high self esteem, and I'm not any more intelligent than most, but in a million years I couldn't and wouldn't settle for this kind of "backseat" relationship. Why do you guys do it?

 

OW, you made me laugh with the whole country song thing. And I respect that you took what some of us have had to say to you without going crazy. You show a lot of good qualities. But then, you show another side too. One I can't understand.

 

If I had a man calling me and I heard his wife sobbing in the background, wow. There's no way, I could sleep at night after that. I would always be thinking about her pain before my pleasure. I couldn't do it. Why is it that some of you can? How do you sleep at night? And I'm asking that without trying to be a bitch. I just don't know how you can. You seem like such a good woman, all of this aside. I can tell.

 

So why? Why is this man worth it to you?

 

Why he's worth it to me would run to several pages, and no doubt earn me an infraction for being off topic , but to answer your question about his wife sobbing.

 

He was outside in the garden - there were lots of outside noises of birds, traffic, that kind of stuff. He wasn't in front of his wife, but I could still hear her wailing - so she must have been pretty loud. That's disturbing, because although they have a huge garden, there's a good chance the neighbours could hear too and that means she didn't care who heard. She must have been pretty out of it.

 

As I've said before, she's not the most stable person emotionally. She needs counselling and she needs to sort out lots of issues in her life. This is not her first M. I'm not sure if she was as abusive in the previous one as she was in this one, or maybe she was abused, I don't know. But they had split before because of her behaviour, he took her back because of the impact on the kids (they were smaller then) and part of that was that they'd go for MC. The MC got MM to see that the relationship was abusive, that he should draw boundaries and stand up to her. She stopped going and wouldn't go for any counselling at all when she saw that it meant she'd have to compromise and change her behaviour too. She just refused. So it's been downhill all the way since then, with MM just biding his time, waiting until the kids were old enough to leave.

 

He went through with the counselling, and it's changed his behaviour and the way he looks at things. He stands up to her abuse now and that often leads to fights. She can't deal with assertiveness and tends to get very aggressive and has gotten physically violent before. Not with the kids, luckily, but in front of them. This is partly why they don't want to stay with her.

 

So yes, Touche, while I can feel for her (and I feel many things for her - though respect isn't one, sadly) and really want her to get help, until she recognises that she needs help and is prepared to get it, her life is just going to continue imploding on her.

 

I can't take responsibility for her life. I have no control over her or what she chooses to do. Yes, I'm happy to own my part in the A, but the A is not what's caused either the breakdown of her M (that happened long before I met MM) or the breakdown of her R with her children. I can join the throng of voices urging her to go for counselling, but if she's not listening to any of them would one voice make a difference?

 

I've probably already said more than I should wrt TMI, but I wanted to explain that what might seem "cold" is actually just, IMO, a recognition of limits. Her pain is there, I'm not denying. But her pain is part of a bigger picture that she needs to address, something that's way beyond me or MM or anyone who's not a professional to help her with.

 

I do want her to be OK. Whatever their history, MM must feel some residual love for her, and she's the kids' mother, and her not being OK impacts on them. Her being OK is in everyone's best interest, but mostly her own.

[lindya]

If I had a man calling me and I heard his wife sobbing in the background, wow. There's no way, I could sleep at night after that. I would always be thinking about her pain before my pleasure.

 

I'd find that haunting too. Also, that image of her dressing up to "try to look attractive", and him regarding it as pitiful is just so bleak - then the idea of her howling and wailing in the bathroom while he's talking to his mistress on the phone. Just picturing that makes me want to give the woman a big, comforting hug then fly her to some nice tropically located health spa to recuperate from it all.

 

This is why I find a lot of things about this section really difficult to understand. People know that that's what human pain looks like. It's not nice. Not comfortable to witness. It's just depressing and heart-wrenching....and almost inevitably the by-product of infidelity.

 

When people talk about the excitement of doing something naughty being part of the fun of it, is that what they mean? Is it a turn on to think that one is responsible for causing that kind of pain and suffering to another woman? Not you OWoman - I think you've established here that you don't fall into that sadistic category...but for me, as Touche is suggesting it would be a major turn off. I don't think I could shut those images and those sad sounds out of my head. That's what I meant when I talked about the possibility of you being haunted by it at some point later on.

 

I hear you when you say she was abusive in the relationship - but is that definitely the case? It's not just a one-sided version of events that you're hearing?

[Touche]

Because she's in love with him. Haven't you ever been in love?

 

Sure I have. But never at someone else's expense. Any more questions?

[Touche]

OwWoman, I understand when you say the pain was there before you came along. But right now, you're part of her pain. You are. I coudn't do it.

 

Why not step aside until they have their lives sorted out?

[Havn_a_life]

I just feel really really sorry for the BW in OWoman's situation.

I hope the BW finds happiness, and I don't think the MM is the answer to her happiness.

I hope that MM leaves his BW, so she can deal with the A and learn from it and be happy, and OWoman is welcome to him and all that goes with him, good and bad.

[OpenBook]

This is why I find a lot of things about this section really difficult to understand. People know that that's what human pain looks like. It's not nice. Not comfortable to witness. It's just depressing and heart-wrenching....and almost inevitably the by-product of infidelity.

 

Sorry, you got that one backwards. Infidelity is the by-product of an unhappy marriage.

[lindya]

Sorry, you got that one backwards. Infidelity is the by-product of an unhappy marriage.

 

Is anyone happy all the time, Open Book? I know that people have become brainwashed into believing they could be happy and fulfilled 24/7...if they just changed a few things about their lives. Long term, realistic happiness is probably contentment...and contentment doesn't necessarily equal excitement and stimulation.

 

I think people are expecting more and more from life, and ending up with so much less as a result.

[Havn_a_life]

Sorry, you got that one backwards. Infidelity is the by-product of an unhappy marriage.

 

Not necessarily. Some spouses are just natural born ass*holes. That isn't the faithful partner's fault.

[OpenBook]

Long term, realistic happiness is probably contentment...and contentment doesn't necessarily equal excitement and stimulation.

 

Tell that to a man!! Especially a man going thru a mid-life crisis. This is why I absolutely refuse to get married again. It's just too risky.

 

I think people are expecting more and more from life, and ending up with so much less as a result.

 

You may be right about that Lindya. But I for one am very glad I'm not a woman living 100 (or more) years ago. Having to put up with all kinds of bad behavior from my H because I had NO CHOICE. As women, we have choices now. We can take care of ourselves. Divorce no longer has the stigma it once did. So you bet we have higher expectations of men. They can't get away with the crap they've been pulling on us for the last few thousand years. It's a Brave New World.

[Touche]

Have you ever thought of finding a man who doesn't have any "crap" to put up with? Now there's a thought!

[lindya]

You may be right about that Lindya. But I for one am very glad I'm not a woman living 100 (or more) years ago.

 

I wouldn't want to live 100 years ago. Having something like my parents have would do me just fine. They're friends and companions. My mother looks reasonably good for her age, but she's got the wrinkles and saggy bits you'd expect. If she so much as contemplated getting plastic surgery, my father would wouldn't tell her not to be so bloody silly and he'd start ranting about the health risks.

 

Not the most glamorous, sexy forms of love perhaps....but it seems to me a far more real, robust and grown up form of love than the guy who trades his wife of 25 years in for a younger model because he finds the sight of his wife's ageing body too depressing to contemplate.

[OpenBook]

Not the most glamorous, sexy forms of love perhaps....but it seems to me a far more real, robust and grown up form of love than the guy who trades his wife of 25 years in for a younger model because he finds the sight of his wife's ageing body too depressing to contemplate.

 

I agree. And nowadays, I wonder how that guy in the latter example would feel when he sees his now ex-wife of 25 years, getting in shape (if she isn't already) and landing a younger guy almost half HER age!!

[lindya]

I agree. And nowadays, I wonder how that guy in the latter example would feel when he sees his now ex-wife of 25 years, getting in shape (if she isn't already) and landing a younger guy almost half HER age!!

 

I don't know how men feel in that situation, but I think a common reaction here (UK) would probably involve a lot of spluttering and talk of "bloody old fool....mutton dressed as lamb....ridiculous...back in the war...watch your wife - the bloody GIS are overpaid, oversexed and over here with their silk stockings and sweeties....why doesn't that long haired young bastard get a woman his own age....he's probably a homosexual of course, most of them are these days....my ex wife's...hanging around with teenage poofs now, you know! Ha ha. Sniffle sniffle."

 

In short. A mountain of ancient, harboured resentments and grudges would probably be raised and aired for the new young wife to pretend to listen to as she discreetly checked out the muscular young son of the couple next door....out in the garden, mowing the lawn.

[OpenBook]

I don't know how men feel in that situation, but I think a common reaction here (UK) would probably involve a lot of spluttering and talk of "bloody old fool....mutton dressed as lamb....ridiculous...back in the war...watch your wife - the bloody GIS are overpaid, oversexed and over here with their silk stockings and sweeties....why doesn't that long haired young bastard get a woman his own age....he's probably a homosexual of course, most of them are these days....my ex wife's...hanging around with teenage poofs now, you know! Ha ha. Sniffle sniffle."

 

In short. A mountain of ancient, harboured resentments and grudges would probably be raised and aired for the new young wife to pretend to listen to as she discreetly checked out the muscular young son of the couple next door....out in the garden, mowing the lawn.

 

:D:D Good one Lindya!! Thanks for the belly-laugh!

[nittygritty]

The odds of ME having a successful relationship AT ALL are pretty remote but for some bizarre reason MM and I have just clicked in some unforeseeable way. He's willing to take the risk although he has everything to lose. And me? Well, if it all comes crashing down at least I'll be able to say that I did fall in love, once, had my heart broken and lived to tell the tale. Maybe I could write some country & western songs, or a best-selling novel, from the experience? Or wait, someone on the other thread called it a soap opera, maybe I should go for that!

 

I would bet that you have thought you were in love with other men before you became involved with this MM.

 

Knowing what fun the aftermath of recovering from a romantic love relationship that has been unsuccessful, why are you intentionally setting yourself up for failure by choosing to fall in love with a MM in the first place?

 

I'm assuming you've experienced what going through a divorce is like when children are involved, correct? Its really rough stuff for everybody involved. The parental level of guilt is overwhelming and the likelyhood of your MM being ready to jump straight into another committed "real life" relationship with the OW that contributed to the problems that lead to his divorce, would be very low I would think.

 

A part-time fantasy friend to help him get through the divorce process is one thing but playing house with teenage kids involved is probably going to be a total disaster and you will be the first to go. Why would you be willing to put yourself through that?

 

Don't say your doing it for "love" because "love" wouldn't have ever asked you to do what you've done.

[OWoman]

I would bet that you have thought you were in love with other men before you became involved with this MM.

 

Nope, never. I'm a hardened cynic who didn't think such things really existed. I've had plenty of lust, that I recognised as lust, at the time. Plenty of desire, and the odd bit of infatuation that I also dismissed as infatuation. I really didn't think love was possible. Certainly not for me.

 

Knowing what fun the aftermath of recovering from a romantic love relationship that has been unsuccessful, why are you intentionally setting yourself up for failure by choosing to fall in love with a MM in the first place?

 

I don't think it was a choice. In the beginning it was supposed to be just a fling, at least from my side. I was honest with him about that, and after a lot of talking he finally gave in to the idea. It's not his kind of thing at all - but I got him in a weak moment and I can be very persuasive when I put my mind to it. Neither of us planned on this. It just happened.

 

I'm assuming you've experienced what going through a divorce is like when children are involved, correct? Its really rough stuff for everybody involved. The parental level of guilt is overwhelming and the likelyhood of your MM being ready to jump straight into another committed "real life" relationship with the OW that contributed to the problems that lead to his divorce, would be very low I would think.

 

I think we're both fairly realistic about what lies ahead. Although I never did a moment's guilt about leaving my own M at the time, because I harbour no illusions about M or about "staying together for the kids" after watching my parents stick it out when they should have split, I know that that's not so for everyone, and some people do feel guilt.

 

There's no right answer for his kids in this situation. Him staying with W will make them unhappy, all the fighting and hysteria are not good for them. Him leaving and them staying with W will not make them happy, as they've said they want to be with him. Him leaving and them going with him will not make them happy as they'll only see W twice a year. We're all going to have to settle for "best of the the possible" on that one, and only time will tell whether it is best or not.

 

The A is not the cause of the problems here, though. It may have exacerbated them (he says not, but then I'm not sure he's in the best position to say) and it may have brought them to a head (so to speak) by creating a platform for comparison with the unhappy M.

 

We've lived together during the A, for extended periods of time. It's been surprisingly easy, despite teenagers (mine though, not his) and jobs and chores and money and all the other sticking points I expected to get in the way. I don't imagine that a permanent move would be anywhere near as easy, and I imagine that traumatised teens will certainly add to the challenge, wherever they choose to be.

 

But our conflict resolution skills are well-aligned, we've got a solid communication basis and if it doesn't work, we're both big and ugly enough to deal with that and move on. Which doesn't mean we aren't going to give it our best shot. Yes, the odds are against us. But to walk away from the one shot at love, at real happiness that has come to us, because of bad odds? We're neither of us that kind of person!

[Impudent Oyster]

The odds are completely against you and MM's relationship working. For starters your a serial OW and he'll be divorced with kids.

 

You're not kidding. An inconsiderate, selfish bastard of a husband and a woman who has no respect for marriage or commitment. How long do you think that will last?

 

Good luck OW, you're going to need it, and congratulations to the BW for getting rid of her joke of a husband.