Am I overreacting about a friend

[marlena]

who I consider to be on a par (well, almost) with my sisters. Here is my problem. We have been very close friends for 26 years. We know everything about eachother and have always been there for eachother through thick and thin.

 

She's in an "open marriage" of sorts. Her husband gets off on her sleeping with other men and then coming home and giving him all the details. I am single. Often we go out together. She wants to pick up men but just doesn't know how to do it. So, I, the seasoned flirt, make all the moves and then she wiggles herself in and hits on whoever it is that we have singled out. It has begun to annoy me. She can do her own picking up as far as I am concerned. Still, I have looked the other way many times.

 

UNTIL, one day, after she had had a guzzle too many and a quarrel with her agoraphobic and abusive husband, she called an ex boyfriend/ flirt and came on to him asking to see him. She told me and I was floored!

 

Since then, she has apologized again and again but I just can't get over it. Strangely I felt betrayed even though this ex was years ago and it never ended in a relationship or full blown sex.

 

 

My feelings have changed and though I am civil every time she calls my heart has stiffened. I can't help the way I feel. I want to go back to the way things were but I can't emotionally. I have lost trust. I know that whenever she drinks, she calls up men (exes) and does the most stupid things that she later regrets.

 

How can I change the way I feel? As I type, I can't but wonder if she is seeing my ex! If, in a drunken stupor, she hasn't contacted him. He doesn't know that we are friends by the way.

 

Is it OK to hit on a man you know your best friend has the hots for?

 

Her excuse was , "But you never went after him". And I said, "I never go after anybody". She is very aggressive when it comes pursuing the man she wants.

 

Am I wrong?

[Kamille]

This is a tough one Malena, first of all because I have to put aside all my pre-conceived ideas about relationships, sex and commitment. I mean, it's really hard for me to withold judgement on her person based on her behavior. As in, I wonder what she fills fullfilling about the casual relationships, but hey, she isn't the first one, nor will she be the last.

 

But I'm going to try and analyse this as though her promiscuous behavior wasn't an issue. Wait no, why would I do that? It is the issue, isn't it? Or is it only an issue for you since she had sex with an ex of yours?

 

I live in a small city, where it is common for people to "share" the same ex, and I have been confronted to the situation of a friend dating an ex of mine not once but three times. (different friends, different exes).

 

I also consider that 'crushes' have expiration dates - that is to say, that if a friend of mine has a crush on a friend for years, she better act up on it, else he becomes on the market again. I do, however, consider that there are a lot of mitigating factors to the availability: namely - how strong the crush was and the intentions one has in going after a man another friend has the hots for.

 

I guess, the question I have for you is this: why don't you feel you could work with your friend over your trust issues?

 

I somehow get the impression that the ex is instrumental in this situation. That the fact she hooked up with him just pushed you over the limit of whether or not you could trust her.

[marlena]

But I'm going to try and analyse this as though her promiscuous behavior wasn't an issue. Wait no, why would I do that? It is the issue, isn't it? Or is it only an issue for you since she had sex with an ex of yours?

 

 

 

Kamille,

I was afraid no onw would give me any input on this and it is means so much to me as a 26 year old friendship is here at stake. The anguish and loss I feel are tremendous...even knowing that it is I who is bringing this down on myself...I can't help thw eay I am feeling. So many times I want to pick up the phone but I can't. i would like no more than anything else to go back to the way we were but my heart resists....and I don't know if my heart is once again playing tricks with me ..

 

No, it is not an issue. I am not a moralist and will not pass judgement on any other persons choice of life style as long as it soesn't incringe on me. If she and her husband are OK with it , who am I to say otherwise (even though he abuses her verbally and mentally). But over the years I have kept a distance not wanting to interfere in their marital problems/situation.

 

It is an issue with me because she wanted to have sex with him though she knew I would be livid with jealousy. If she didn't know it would hurt she should have at least wondered if it would. I even told her , "You could have asked first". Her reply was "I was drunk as a skunk and so pissed off at my husband that night"!

 

Ok, but what about me? Where do I fit in in the picture?

 

I can't know if she has had been with or not. I can't trust her when she is that far gone on booze. And since she has her husband's approval, she has no hindrance at all.

 

 

I also consider that 'crushes' have expiration dates - that is to say, that if a friend of mine has a crush on a friend for years, she better act up on it, else he becomes on the market again.

 

 

Initailly, this was one of her main arguments. Since I hadn't acted up on it, she thought it was OK. I may not have acted up on it because it is not my style to go after someone who did not seem to care much anyway, but she does know I still regretted not pursuing him more when the going was good.

 

I am confused. Am I reading too much into this? And even if I am, how can I remove the frost that has settled over my heart?

 

How can I trust her agian? How can I know if she is or isn;'t telling me the truth.

 

This hurts almost as much as a breakup or a divorce.

 

Am I wrong? And if I am, how can alter my feelings? How can I view her the way I always did - with blind trust and lasting love?

[Herzen]

When it comes to feelings about friends poaching on ex's there's no right or wrong. Your reaction is appropriate, proportional and genuine. That's all that matters.

 

What you must ask yourself marlena is why are you "pimping" for your swinging friend. Perhaps you like the "game" too. At least until she puts her swinger claws into one of your ex's.

 

Underlying all this is a friend with a drinking problem, a troubled marriage and impaired integrity. And you're enabling her.

 

I'd call a time out as far as helping her troll for sex partners to stimulate her agoraphobic husband. Let her find her own sex partners. In short, I'd stop mixing friendship and sex games. Otherwise, your friendship will soon end--if it has not already.

 

Hugs, my darling.

[marlena]

Ah, Herzen, Sweetie,

 

I knew you would come through with answers/questions that aim straight to the core of what I am feeling. You are right, it does so seem as if I were pimping for her, doesn't it? Actually, that is exactly how it was beginning to feel even before she trespassed on my, let's say, territory. Her attitude was beginning to annoy me to no end. It was almost as if she were using me as "bait" to catch herself a man, not ever considering that I might be interested as well. She would take it for granted that he would be hers for the taking. And I would back off knowing how much she wanted that casual sex. Was it to pleae herself? Her husband ? I don't know. What started off as just innocent fun turned sour.

 

I guess a felt somehow sorry for her and her dysfunctional marriage. I have many single friends and this has never, ever happened with any of them. There are unspoken rules to the game when single friends go out. I never expected a married friend to break these rules.

 

Her last antics were the last straw. And know I am grieving the loss of a dear, old friend who I must admit has always been there for me as I have been for her. She has called over and over again saying she is dreadfully sorry but something inside of me has been irretrievably lost. I want to call her but i just CAN'T apply my fingers to the buttons.

 

Somehow all this ties in with her unconventional marriage. I just don't know how I got entrapped in this. I should not have permitted it.

 

I just wish I could feel differently about this whole mess but as hard as I try my feelings get in the way. Perhaps, in some way, she has been devalued in my eyes. I don't like the way I am feeling.

 

Yes, I'm afraid I have just lost a lifelong friend.

 

Bear hugs, darling !

[Kamille]

The thing is you wonder if you will be able to trust her again when in reality she was likely never aware that she was breaking an unspoken rule.

 

Her lack of consideration here, in that instance, would bother me and I would set out to talk to her about it.

 

But she never overtly broke your trust. You say yourself that she is a friend who has seen you through a lot. In these instances, is she good at taking you into consideration? Or does she always put herself first?

[marlena]

The thing is you wonder if you will be able to trust her again when in reality she was likely never aware that she was breaking an unspoken rule.

 

 

Camille, how could she have not known? She knew I really thought he was hot! She knew we had something going on years ago that just, due to my reluctance - it was after my divorce and I was unready for anything - didn't go anywhere.

 

 

When we did talk that exactly what I said to her! Didn't you think how this would affect me? She said she didn't think it would bother me since I hadn't pursued anyhting with him in years. To me it sounded lame.

 

But she never overtly broke your trust. You say yourself that she is a friend who has seen you through a lot. In these instances, is she good at taking you into consideration? Or does she always put herself first?

 

 

She was the best of friends really - so supportive and always there.. It was mutual. We were always there for one another.

 

That's why it hurts so badly - it's a great loss.

 

We talk occassionally but it just isn't the same. And I can't get it out of my mind that she may be seeing him and not telling me. Talking to her has become unpleasant for me so I never call her anymore. All the spontaneity and authenticity is gone.

 

I know I am being too hard on her -- but I can't help it - honestly I can't. How can I fight what feelings are inside me?

 

Thanks Camille

[Kamille]

I don't think you are being too hard on her. Your situation is complicated.

 

I come from a small city where everybody knows everybody else so in general one will be confronted to a friend dating an ex or hitting on a crush at least once or twice in their dating life.

 

It hurts like hell at first, puts a damper on the friendship, but in all cases the friendship comes back.

 

If you approached her, asked her if she was still seeing him and asked her to stop because it hurts you, would you be able to trust that her answers would be honest?

 

Perhaps you could have that conversation and decide after whether or not it made a difference.

 

It sounds to me like she views sex as being mostly inconsequential so I doubt she is actually still seeing your ex, or even giving it much thought. She is most likely giving you and your friendship some thought and hoping, just as you are, that there is a way to patch things up.

 

Your ex is your ex. He's in the past. Leave him there. You can also decide to put her in the past as well, but I think she means a lot more to you then he ever did.

[marlena]

If you approached her, asked her if she was still seeing him and asked her to stop because it hurts you, would you be able to trust that her answers would be honest?

 

 

We have talked openly. She broke my heart when she said, "What can I do to redeem myself?" The word "redeem" had a religious conotation that I did not like. I am not judgemental or a moralist. I don't have the power to "reddem" anyone. I wouldn't want to. She knows that. It hurt me that she hurt so much and felt the need to say somethng like that. And she is a declared atheist.

 

She said she would not jeopardize our friendship for any man. Can I believe her? How do I restore that trust ..that spontaneity we had in our friendship?

 

It's really my problem not hers.

 

She has stopped calling lately. I don't know what that means. Is she tired of making all the first moves to fix things? Or is something else going on? See, Camille? It's that teeny weeny seed of doubt that's stuck in my head and can't get out.

 

Right now, I don't feel like talking to her. When we talk, it seems fake, stilted, unatural. This thing hovers over us.

 

I guess I will have to get over it or just lose a dear firend ...over something so stupid. I hate myself for feeling this way.

 

Maybe with time....

[squeak]

It is not just about this ex of yours. You realized she would greedily lay claim to anything, and her sense of entitlement crossed all decent boundaries. People think they can seperate her lifestyle from the person-no-now you see how it becomes your problem.

 

You are single, did she ever once back off and ask you if you actually liked any of the guys you were flirting with? No-she would just assume it was all for her. You both created a taking dynamic, and of course being a taker with you she took it too far.

 

You saw how far she felt entitled, and it really doesn't feel good to se that in a person who you were helping out because of this situation she put herself in.

 

Her lifestyle problems are now your problems...people should judge more, not less. A swinger is not exactly going to show the best morals in friendship or anyplace. Think about it.

 

Go with your heart, it is telling you something.

[ThisGirlNameKD]

I could understand why you're hurt, but the truth is the girl was drunk and drinking impairs your judgment...period. I know that can't often be used as an excuse, but that is the affects of alcohol. It's not who she slept with that's the problem, it's why she slept with him. Because she did something to you in a drunken state that she does to you when you both hang out...it's just that in the drunken state she took it to a whole other level. I know you said her and her husband has an open relationship, but you also said that when both of your are out, she ends up trying to pick up the guys that you are flirting with. So she's always going after guys you're trying to flirt with or get with. Your friend sound like she has some serious self esteem issues and she doesn't sound happy. If she can take a man's attention away from you, then that makes her feel extra desirable in some kind of way.

[marlena]

You are single, did she ever once back off and ask you if you actually liked any of the guys you were flirting with? No-she would just assume it was all for her. You both created a taking dynamic, and of course being a taker with you she took it too far.

 

 

This is just it. Her assuming that she was entitled to these men! That a priori we were doing this for her benefit. She never once considered that hey, Marlena, might like this guy, so why am I hitting on him? It was almost as if, like Herzen noted, I were "pimping' for her!! At least that's how it was beginning to feel to me. And I began to resent her assumptions which I thought were very selfish. I felt she was not considering my feelings at all! And I am the single one, here!!!!!!!! Sheesh! Then finding out that she had called up someone she KNEW I had had the hots for for years (drunk or not drunk) just made something snap inside of me. And suddenly I couldn't feel the same about her! It wrenched my heart that I couldn't rekindle the same feelings of love for her. I began to not trust her and this made me feel worse.. Even guilty for there's no doubt that she has been in all other ways a perfect friend for almost three decades now. I began to blame myself for feeling so PETTY! After all, like she said, I never went after this guy after things didn't lead to much all those years ago.

 

Now why did I accomodate her so? I think I felt bad for her. She was bored in her marriage and wanted to have a few thrills. She was jealous of my single life, my dating, having realtionships and just having hew things happen to me all the time. So I felt, OK, if she needs a friend to party with, I'll play along. Only it backfired on the both of us.

 

I haven't been able to call her since. She called me up many times and we spoke openly about what had happened. She expressed deep remorse. I didn't mention all the other things that bothered me just this one specific incident.

 

We talked the other day. The conversation was contrived and stilted. We stayed off any personal stuff. She didn't talk about her husband and their latest escapades and I did not give her any info on my personal life. I felt awful afterwards. I don't think we will ever retrieve what we had. It's a great loss for the both of us. It is a source of anguish and sadness for me.

 

Because she did something to you in a drunken state that she does to you when you both hang out...it's just that in the drunken state she took it to a whole other level.

 

 

Yes, it was a culmination of things! I had begun to get upset with her sense of entitlement long before.

Your friend sound like she has some serious self esteem issues and she doesn't sound happy. If she can take a man's attention away from you, then that makes her feel extra desirable in some kind of way.

 

 

Yes, I think she does. Her husband has made sure of this. She puts up with a lot of sh** form this guy who God knows has so many issues himself. And she enables him. He loves to put her down. He's always telling her boring she is and intellectually inferior to him! UGH! If my husband asked me to go out and screw other men, I'd tell him to go take a hike, that's for sure!

 

So, you see. I felt sorry for her!

 

And I miss her! I miss the way we used to be!

 

 

Thanks, guys!

[marlena]

Ignore the link! Haven't a clue how it got there!!

[Kamille]

This is just it. Her assuming that she was entitled to these men! That a priori we were doing this for her benefit. She never once considered that hey, Marlena, might like this guy, so why am I hitting on him? It was almost as if, like Herzen noted, I were "pimping' for her!! At least that's how it was beginning to feel to me. And I began to resent her assumptions which I thought were very selfish. I felt she was not considering my feelings at all! And I am the single one, here!!!!!!!! Sheesh! Then finding out that she had called up someone she KNEW I had had the hots for for years (drunk or not drunk) just made something snap inside of me. And suddenly I couldn't feel the same about her! It wrenched my heart that I couldn't rekindle the same feelings of love for her. I began to not trust her and this made me feel worse.. Even guilty for there's no doubt that she has been in all other ways a perfect friend for almost three decades now. I began to blame myself for feeling so PETTY! After all, like she said, I never went after this guy after things didn't lead to much all those years ago.

 

Now why did I accomodate her so? I think I felt bad for her. She was bored in her marriage and wanted to have a few thrills. She was jealous of my single life, my dating, having realtionships and just having hew things happen to me all the time. So I felt, OK, if she needs a friend to party with, I'll play along. Only it backfired on the both of us.

 

I haven't been able to call her since. She called me up many times and we spoke openly about what had happened. She expressed deep remorse. I didn't mention all the other things that bothered me just this one specific incident.

 

We talked the other day. The conversation was contrived and stilted. We stayed off any personal stuff. She didn't talk about her husband and their latest escapades and I did not give her any info on my personal life. I felt awful afterwards. I don't think we will ever retrieve what we had. It's a great loss for the both of us. It is a source of anguish and sadness for me.

 

 

 

Yes, it was a culmination of things! I had begun to get upset with her sense of entitlement long before.

Your friend sound like she has some serious self esteem issues and she doesn't sound happy. If she can take a man's attention away from you, then that makes her feel extra desirable in some kind of way.

 

 

Yes, I think she does. Her husband has made sure of this. She puts up with a lot of sh** form this guy who God knows has so many issues himself. And she enables him. He loves to put her down. He's always telling her boring she is and intellectually inferior to him! UGH! If my husband asked me to go out and screw other men, I'd tell him to go take a hike, that's for sure!

 

So, you see. I felt sorry for her!

 

And I miss her! I miss the way we used to be!

 

 

Thanks, guys!

 

Good. I'm glad you've figure out what it is about the situation that really disturbs you.

 

Any chance you'd be able to confront her about it? Tell her what you told us here?

[marlena]

Thanks Kamille,

We spoke about it at least three times in the beginning. I think it's time to give it a rest while we both grapple with our feelings and try to work them out.

 

Sometimes it isn't good overtalk and overanalyse things. What I think we have to do is build our friendship on new foundations. I, for one, know I will not be going out with her to meet men. If that's what she wants, she'll have to do it on her own. The next time we go out together, we will just enjoy eachother's companyand that's it.

 

In time, I'm sure we'll get back to that lovely place of love and trust we were at all these years.

[Magnatolia]

Sorry but who the hell cares that she is dating your ex? Why are women so tied up on this issue? IMO, the only reason this should be an issue is if the relationship ended sourly.

 

And, to be honest, you admitted you didn't have a relationship/sex with him. So you dated him and that makes him off bounds to your friend?

[marlena]

Magantolia,

 

You definitely have a point here. That's why I said in a previous post that I feel guilty for feeling hurt and betrayed the way I do! It sounds petty to my own ears. When I rationalise I know the way I feel is illogical but I can't HELP how I feel. I wish I didn't feel this way. I'm working on it though!

 

Yes, I only dated him but she knew very well that I still had the hots for him. I know that if I were to find out that she'd bedded him I would be extremely jealous because I didn't when I had the opportunity. I was just coming out of a divorce and wasn't ready to have sex or a relationship with anyone.

 

Plus it ties up with what I have written in my other posts. She always automatically assumed that the men were hers. She's not very good at flirting and picking up men,let's say. She'd expect me to do that part and then she'd hit on whoever it happened to be. She never once thought, Hey , maybe Marlena googled eyed this guy because she liked him! As soon as a man would invite us over to the bar, she'd grab the seat next to him and then start to lean over and flirt outrageously.

 

Maybe she thought I was getting enough thrills being single so she figured she deserved a piece of the action too. Which is fine but hell, why couldn't she make the first moves?

 

Of course, the friendship will endure. We love eachother to much and have invested a lot in this friendship. But I won't even be looking in the directionof men when we go out. Let her catch her own fish.

 

I know that if I knew she still had the hots for someone I would not dream of coming onto him. But that's just me!

[squeak]

Sorry but who the hell cares that she is dating your ex? Why are women so tied up on this issue? IMO, the only reason this should be an issue is if the relationship ended sourly.

 

And, to be honest, you admitted you didn't have a relationship/sex with him. So you dated him and that makes him off bounds to your friend?

 

This is one of those things that if 2 friends don't care, fine-not a problem.

 

But if two people enter into a friendship, and one DOES have an issue with that, then it should ideally be respected or the other person has crossed some serious boundaries.

 

I am sure after 26 years Marlen's friend had a good idea of what is and is not okay with her, so therefore it IS a problem that she did it anyways.

 

No one can simply say "what is wrong with that?" and disregard the other friend's values, unless they are willing to lose that friend in the gamble.

[marlena]

No one can simply say "what is wrong with that?" and disregard the other friend's values, unless they are willing to lose that friend in the gamble.

 

Squeak,

 

Thanks for understanding how I feel. I couldn't have expressed my own feeling better than you did. When she told me (personally, I think she was hoping I would so, OK! No problem) all I could say was, "You could have asked me first. I would have told you." That's what friends do. They are considerate and respectful of eachother's feelings. And, yes, I do feel she crossed some very sacred boundaries indeed.

 

Your post made me feel a little bit better about myself!

[squeak]

I think it took me a long time to honor that in myself. So many people will say "so what? What's the big deal? It was a joke/mistake/slip up"

 

For example, a good friend of mine said early to me "I hate when people say "shut-up" even in a joking context"" .

 

And you know what-even though I say "shut up" in a joking matter all the time, I don't do it ever around her.

 

Why? Because she is my friend and I know her boundaries and will not be self centered to her by telling her "to get over it" and keep doing certain behaviors. It is no skin off my back to not do that if it will make her feel more valued.

 

But some friends find that what you value IS skin off their back, and will say "oopsie-I did it again-sooorryy". Then it is up to you to see if you want to be with someone like that who puts their needs ahead of yours.

 

Too many people just don't understand what a close respectful relationship is, and then it is up to you to decide if you want that.

 

But -bottom line-letting anyone undermine your values of what is important to you, even if they can't understand it, for whatever reason-- IS NOT the right way.

 

Respecting those things that make you *you*

 

Don't ever let anyone tell you to "just get over it", only you know what is right for you.

[marlena]

Yes, friendship, just like any other relationship, should be founded in mutual respect and respect means honouring the eachother's boundaries. And like you pointed out, she Knew it would bother me .. I know she knew... After all, 26 years is a long, long time.

 

That said, I know we'll get back on track eventually because our friendship truly means a lot to the both of us!

 

 

Thanks, Squeak!

[Magnatolia]

So did the friend know that you weren't comfortable with the idea of her being intimate with one of your exes, or that this particular guy was your ex?

 

In that case I would completely understand you feeling betrayed.

[marlena]

Magnatolia,

 

Yes, she knew I had something going on with him years ago and that up to this very day, I regretted not having pursued a relationship with him. The timing was all off (after my divorce)! She knew about him through me! She herself had never met him. She would frequent at the same bar (with her hubby) as him. For at least two years. I knew form her description of him that it was him. Her husband would fantasize about them and say things like, "Hey, Marlena's friend, he wants to screw you!" He gets off on fantasizing that men are all over his wife!!!

 

Her relationship with her husband was one I never undersood but, hey, who am I to judge? None of my business anyway. Though it would really upset me that he would be verbally abusive to her and then tell her to go get laid and come back with stories so that he can get his rocks off.

 

When the incident happen, she wasn't only 99% sure it was the guy I liked although I kept telling her it was. She called up the bar and asked for (insert name) and the bartender handed the phone over to him since he's a regular there. She described herself as the woman who was wearing blah, blah (he didn't have a clue what she was taking about). She even got pissed that he couldn't remember her! How conceited, I thought! Then she asked for his cell number which he of course readily gave.

 

Then she called me and realted how she was drunk, pissed off at her H and called my friend! I was struck speechless! Didn't saya word. But of course she knows me and immediately realized my silence meant something! So she called me up an hour letter and asked if it bothered me that she called my friend. I said, "Of course, just wish you had asked me before!"

 

She apologized profusely but by then a coldness settled over my heart.

 

I thoguht I wa getting over it but wow, this is a long post, so maybe I'm still suffering from side effects.

 

Who's to tell me that in a drunken state and after her hubby has pissed her off agian, she's not going to do the same? She admits that she thinks he is very hot?

 

See? That's the thing about trust? Once lost, it can never be fully regained.

We should think before we act.