This needs to be said here

[Cobra_X30]

All that the OP seems to be saying is that (a) Not every story is bitter for everyone concerned. (b) Don't always generalize. © Try to moderate your replies. I think he has every right to say that, and to put his viewpoint forward. In fact, he's quite right. Just because some of us may not agree with the situation the posters find themselves in does not really give us a right to comment excessively on their morals and character or lack of them It's as simple as a, b, c !

 

a) Does this mean it is ok to hurt one person to make two people happy?

 

b) How do you identify a generalization? Don't we all learn by association?

 

c) We all have a different view of moderation considering our experiences and background. Besides blatant insulting, how do we decide what is moderate and what is excessive?

 

The world is not a moral free zone. If you are so thin skinned you cant ignore the words and thoughts of others... how do you handle real life?

[Bobby NoBrains]

LOL Cobra, more questions to make me think as always. I think you like asking questions more than giving answers, heh

 

(a) It's never ok to hurt someone, but maybe it's not always that way.

 

(b) That one's too tough for me at this time, I'm in a laffing mood right now

 

© Avoid too many references to morals and character and focus on the posters query if we can, that perhaps would make it easier for the post to not degenerate as some of them seem to do

 

The world is not a moral free zone. If you are so thin skinned you cant ignore the words and thoughts of others... how do you handle real life?

 

Right now, I have to say, I'm barely able to handle it, tbh If I hold in my laffter any more, I'm gonna get gas

 

Just my two bits ..

 

Bobby

[Cobra_X30]

LOL Cobra, more questions to make me think as always. I think you like asking questions more than giving answers, heh

 

Right now, I have to say, I'm barely able to handle it, tbh If I hold in my laffter any more, I'm gonna get gas

 

Ha Good observation!

 

It's like learning mathmatics. It's not about the answer so much as learning to solve the problem.

 

LOL... Let the laffter go!

 

Here is my two bits on how we as a forum handle our little issue with regards to the jerks that appear from time to time.

 

If someone puts up a post to intentionally hurt or insult another... Ignore it and flag it to the moderators! Why?

 

Because I believe the moderators on this site are intelligent, fair, and fully capable of handling a given situation!

 

Trust me, I've been on the recieving end of a moderator smack down! They know what thier about!

[OWoman]

where are all these posts that people are claiming that others are being called “whores” (???)

 

My original thread, which was deleted, was full of that.

 

Guess that might be why it was deleted...

[frannie]

I am guessing that the point of posting with another name, and letting everyone know that they are an established and otherwise respected poster is to emphasise a few points:

 

Not everyone who was a former MM/OW wants to broadcast that even in the anonymity of an internet forum. There is such a thing as having a 'good' anonymous name on a forum such as this. Established posters who are respected for their views may well not want to reveal other aspects of their history which might subject them to the name-calling and offensive dismissal which often goes with admitting to being either a former or current MM or OW.

 

Any current OW on here knows that in posting a comment on this or any other board your perspective is likely to be dismissed (at best), or your character called into question (sometimes even politely). Who would voluntarity open themselves up to that kind of criticism when it's not necessary..? Personally I tend to stay out of other areas of LS, my choice. Other posters (like Mr. Wright) have elected to have two identities in order to maintain credibility where otherwise he fears being exposed to rampant hostility. Who is to criticise that..? Strangely enough, the criticism comes from those who are often the harshest critics of anyone admitting to adultery or even thoughts of adultery.

 

My response to that is: if such criticism as is referred to in the OP is allowed to continue, then this is what results: far less openness by posters. And here is proven in the adoption of a pseudonym by a long-term poster. To say nothing of the self-editing by the majority of MM and OW who use LS. I wouldn't dream of being critical of board policy, but evidently, the current situation does very little to encourage sharing or seeking of support for a very difficult situation. This is my opinion and something I've seen time and again on the boards. It's not my idea of a support forum, but then I'm not even a supporting member, so that can be taken for what it's worth.

 

Just one final point however. The fact that the OP chose even on an anonymous forum to hide his and his now-wife's origins speaks volumes. The infamous 3% figure comes from one study, carried out amongst professionals, who were asked if married, did they get together as the result of an affair. Of those who were married for over 5 years, 3% of them said that yes, they had previously been MM and OW.

 

So the figure is based on couples who have been married over 5 years to their former OW. That is the criteria for the 3%. As such it ignores any such marriages of shorter (to date) duration, and couples who are together but remain unmarried, etc. It also ignores all those couples who refused to give such information.

 

BUT also, cricitally, everyone seems to look at this figure the wrong way around. It doesn't originate with the affair. It is incorrect to say that 3% of MM will end up divorcing, marrying their OP and being together over 5 years!!!! Because it is not based on a percentage of people having affairs, but a percentage of currently married people in that study. We simply do not know what percentage of people in that study had affairs, hence we cannot know what percentage of affairs ended in marriage lasting 5 years or more.

 

And of course, it was just ONE study. One. And unreplicated. So I would take the figures with a pinch of salt (even if you apply them correctly).

[reboot]

Not everyone who was a former MM/OW wants to broadcast that even in the anonymity of an internet forum. There is such a thing as having a 'good' anonymous name on a forum such as this. Established posters who are respected for their views may well not want to reveal other aspects of their history which might subject them to the name-calling and offensive dismissal which often goes with admitting to being either a former or current MM or OW.

I simply can't go along with this. Knowing who this person really is would give them a LOT more weight for me. There are too many well respected posters here who have admitted to being all too human.

 

I'll give you one example, I could give more, but I think this one says it all. LucreziaBorgia admits to being a cheater, an OW, and a BS at different points in her life. If there's anyone on this board whose opinion is more respected than hers, pray tell me who that is.

[frannie]

I simply can't go along with this. Knowing who this person really is would give them a LOT more weight for me. There are too many well respected posters here who have admitted to being all too human.

 

I'll give you one example, I could give more, but I think this one says it all. LucreziaBorgia admits to being a cheater, an OW, and a BS at different points in her life. If there's anyone on this board whose opinion is more respected than hers, pray tell me who that is.

 

Well we can only surmise, since the OP has stated that he won't be posting on this subject again.

 

But, in the interests of debate, I'd say that LB is a poster who makes a point of stating, very clearly, that she is 'reformed', would never do such a thing again, and following (I believe..?) therapy or becoming a 'better' human being, such things as cheating and being an OW are beneath her now.

 

That, in my opinion, is why LB is respected. Well, apart from the fact that she sees situations very clearly and expresses herself well, of course, but that goes without saying!

 

I'm not sure it's very good form to be debating other posters, however.

[OWoman]

So the figure is based on couples who have been married over 5 years to their former OW. That is the criteria for the 3%. As such it ignores any such marriages of shorter (to date) duration, and couples who are together but remain unmarried, etc. It also ignores all those couples who refused to give such information.

 

BUT also, cricitally, everyone seems to look at this figure the wrong way around. It doesn't originate with the affair. It is incorrect to say that 3% of MM will end up divorcing, marrying their OP and being together over 5 years!!!! Because it is not based on a percentage of people having affairs, but a percentage of currently married people in that study. We simply do not know what percentage of people in that study had affairs, hence we cannot know what percentage of affairs ended in marriage lasting 5 years or more.

 

And of course, it was just ONE study. One. And unreplicated. So I would take the figures with a pinch of salt (even if you apply them correctly).

 

Yes. If MM and I end up together, which is the plan, we'd not be included in that 3% as we don't plan to marry. Would that make it a "success" story or not? I guess that depends on whether you consider marriage to be the gold standard of a 'successful' relationship or not.

[reboot]

I'm not sure it's very good form to be debating other posters, however.

I'm certainly not trying to debate LB, and I appoligize if that's what it sounded like. I was merely using her to make a point.

 

Yes. If MM and I end up together, which is the plan, we'd not be included in that 3% as we don't plan to marry. Would that make it a "success" story or not? I guess that depends on whether you consider marriage to be the gold standard of a 'successful' relationship or not.

You might not be included in the 3%, but you would still be a success story. I think most people these days are enlightened enough to know that marriage is not the only "successful" kind of relationship possible.

[PoshPrincess]

Yes. If MM and I end up together, which is the plan, we'd not be included in that 3% as we don't plan to marry. Would that make it a "success" story or not? I guess that depends on whether you consider marriage to be the gold standard of a 'successful' relationship or not.

 

IMO, you only have to read the many stories on this board to know that marriage does not necessarily equal success. Does this mean that relationships are only a success, therefore, when they really are 'til death us do part'? I wonder.....

[frannie]

Just wanted to edit my post above but I missed the post, so to speak.

 

I wanted to add, that in contrast to the 'reformed' OW who may be respected here, the OP here does not seek to re-write history. He admits to having cheated, because his marriage was 'non-existent', he says his OW had sex with him... and that he regards her as of good character. The only people who tried to make out he was morally superior to all other MM, or that his OW was in some way blameless or 'not a real OW' were those keen to point out that he left... therefore there was love... therefore it almost wasn't a sexual affair. Hum. OK. Whatever gets you through the day.

 

The OP in fact specifically posted because HE and his now W, former OW were exactly as other MM and OW on here... engaging in sex outside marriage, infidelity, cheats, a woman who 'spread her legs' for a married man... etc. etc. as we're so used to hearing. Not, 'I'm all over that now'... but yes, we were those people and we still are, and we're OK people.

 

That, in essence, was the message.

 

And yes, I too wish the OP would come out and say who they are, but I don't blame them in the slightest for staying anonymous. Most people whose relationships started as affairs do exactly that.

[serial muse]

The only people who tried to make out he was morally superior to all other MM, or that his OW was in some way blameless or 'not a real OW' were those keen to point out that he left... therefore there was love... therefore it almost wasn't a sexual affair. Hum. OK. Whatever gets you through the day.

 

The OP in fact specifically posted because HE and his now W, former OW were exactly as other MM and OW on here... engaging in sex outside marriage, infidelity, cheats, a woman who 'spread her legs' for a married man... etc. etc. as we're so used to hearing. Not, 'I'm all over that now'... but yes, we were those people and we still are, and we're OK people.

 

Well...I'm one of those people who did say that he's "morally superior" for leaving (although I didn't put it quite like that ), but I don't say that that is necessarily related to whether a MM loves his OW or doesn't.

 

To me, I think there is a moral superiority in not stringing two people along. Whichever one you love, cool. Or if you decide to stay for the kids, cool, as long as you've either made a decision or everyone's on board. But even in the case of a content OW such as you, frannie, there's a third party who is, I think, getting the short end of the stick. I realize that some BS would stay anyway. I realize that some BS don't want to know. But there's simply no way to determine that without actually telling the BS and seeing how s/he feels about it. And I guess that I do think that the morally superior thing to do is to give everyone involved the opportunity to make their own fully informed decisions. That's where morality comes into it, for me.

[noforgiveness]

So Frannie how long have you been with your married man now? He is living two lives with you is he not. Week workday happy with you weekend travel home to wifey and family and wife is none the wiser. Would you not find it more noble if he were to end his relationship with his wife when he found he was in love with you? Or is this man just living the convenience of two happy worlds to coincide with his commuting lifestyle?

 

You are stating people are more ok with mr. wright because he left right away and that "we" see that as a way of getting through our lives as bs's. I call bull on that. Leaving is the right thing to do. Perpetuating a lie for as long as your mm has done is down right cruel to everyone but his happy little self.

 

I never understood you. You see things so clearly except when it pertains to yourself.

[EnigmaXOXO]

But, in the interests of debate, I'd say that LB is a poster who makes a point of stating, very clearly, that she is 'reformed', would never do such a thing again, and following (I believe..?) therapy or becoming a 'better' human being, such things as cheating and being an OW are beneath her now.

 

And I equally respect you, Frannie ... not because you are “reformed” (if there is such a thing) ... but because while you endure, you don’t necessarily advocate that others walk the same painful road. Nor do you dole out false hope to those who are grasping at any reason to continue martyring themselves to a relationship situation they are not genuinely happy in. As a matter of fact, you’re quite candid when letting people know, up front, exactly what they may have to look forward to. You don’t always just hand out the shiny bits.

[frannie]

Well...I'm one of those people who did say that he's "morally superior" for leaving (although I didn't put it quite like that ), but I don't say that that is necessarily related to whether a MM loves his OW or doesn't.

 

To me, I think there is a moral superiority in not stringing two people along. Whichever one you love, cool. Or if you decide to stay for the kids, cool, as long as you've either made a decision or everyone's on board. But even in the case of a content OW such as you, frannie, there's a third party who is, I think, getting the short end of the stick. I realize that some BS would stay anyway. I realize that some BS don't want to know. But there's simply no way to determine that without actually telling the BS and seeing how s/he feels about it. And I guess that I do think that the morally superior thing to do is to give everyone involved the opportunity to make their own fully informed decisions. That's where morality comes into it, for me.

 

Well I agree with you to an extent. I don't like cheating, and I'd never do it myself. And certainly I think my MM is being completely and utterly unfair to his W in staying married to her 'for the sake of the children'. That's my moral judgement of him, and he is well aware of it! Unfortunately I don't get to dictate what other people do, only myself.

 

Plus, I think a life led completely by moral choices is a tricky one. Of course the moral high ground here is for the MM to leave off having an affair, because that's morally wrong. But is it morally right to live a life of self-sacrifice..? Does he really have to live in unhappiness for the sake of his children..? So then he should leave... but some people would say it's morally weak to leave your children when they need a father. Hmm... when two or more morals clash it can be a real tangle, which is why ethics was never my favourite part of philosophy.

 

Anyway, it's not a debate I'm really interested in getting into. Should my MM post again, feel free to grill his arras on those points. It should be interesting

[frannie]

So Frannie how long have you been with your married man now? He is living two lives with you is he not. Week workday happy with you weekend travel home to wifey and family and wife is none the wiser. Would you not find it more noble if he were to end his relationship with his wife when he found he was in love with you? Or is this man just living the convenience of two happy worlds to coincide with his commuting lifestyle?

 

You are stating people are more ok with mr. wright because he left right away and that "we" see that as a way of getting through our lives as bs's. I call bull on that. Leaving is the right thing to do. Perpetuating a lie for as long as your mm has done is down right cruel to everyone but his happy little self.

 

I never understood you. You see things so clearly except when it pertains to yourself.

 

I'm in love with a man who does things of which I morally disapprove (but others of which I approve). I am guilty! Shoot me!

 

No, I see my situation very clearly.

[frannie]

And I equally respect you, Frannie ... not because you are “reformed” (if there is such a thing) ... but because while you endure, you don’t necessarily advocate that others walk the same painful road. Nor do you dole out false hope to those who are grasping at any reason to continue martyring themselves to a relationship situation they are not genuinely happy in. As a matter of fact, you’re quite candid when letting people know, up front, exactly what they may have to look forward to. You don’t always just hand out the shiny bits.

 

Thanks for your post, Enigma, it is much appreciated.

[noforgiveness]

Frannie are you ever tempted to cause a dday to see what he would do? *saying this nicely*

[PoshPrincess]

I'm in love with a man who does things of which I morally disapprove (but others of which I approve). I am guilty! Shoot me!

 

No, I see my situation very clearly.

 

Good for you Frannie! I agree with Enigma. Of course being your MMs 'ow' (if that's what you should be referred to as) is probably not an ideal situation for you, but you're getting on with it the way you see fit. I sometimes wonder where my life would be now if I had done the same, although I ended up driving my mm away. Personally, I don't think HE could've handled the guilt as a long term thing anyway, especially once his w found out!

 

And, yes, your advice is still objective.

[serial muse]

Well I agree with you to an extent. I don't like cheating, and I'd never do it myself. And certainly I think my MM is being completely and utterly unfair to his W in staying married to her 'for the sake of the children'. That's my moral judgement of him, and he is well aware of it! Unfortunately I don't get to dictate what other people do, only myself.

 

Plus, I think a life led completely by moral choices is a tricky one. Of course the moral high ground here is for the MM to leave off having an affair, because that's morally wrong. But is it morally right to live a life of self-sacrifice..? Does he really have to live in unhappiness for the sake of his children..? So then he should leave... but some people would say it's morally weak to leave your children when they need a father. Hmm... when two or more morals clash it can be a real tangle, which is why ethics was never my favourite part of philosophy.

 

Anyway, it's not a debate I'm really interested in getting into. Should my MM post again, feel free to grill his arras on those points. It should be interesting

 

It's an interesting point. I agree that living a thoroughly moral life is not only unlikely, it's also not necessarily a straightforward thing. IMO the only way to muddle through is to decide what you personally believe in, and try to be honest and true to that.

 

As a BS (I should say former BS, since it's been several years now and I've long been on the healing road), of course, naturally I prize honesty (not brutal honesty, but truthfulness) above other incarnations of morality. I realize that others may prize other things more highly - but it seems to me that although morals may certainly clash and conflict, two people in a marriage should at least be able to discuss their own moral frameworks openly, and negotiate that. Certainly I can understand that a father might choose to prioritize his children's needs over his own happiness, whether that is morally right or wrong - but he is also choosing to ride roughshod over his wife's needs, and that is less ambiguous, morally. Well, to me.

 

It's an interesting debate, and if your MM should ever care to return to LS (which I know he might not!) I'd be happy to take it up with him.

[frannie]

Frannie are you ever tempted to cause a dday to see what he would do? *saying this nicely*

 

LOL.

 

Do I give the long or the short answer here..? I'll give a few thoughts.

 

Firstly, yes, I've thought about it in the past. Especially when I've felt wound up or powerless, angry or frustrated. And especially when he's been saying one thing and doing another. Faffing about and talking about how he doesn't know how to tell her... I've thought for goodness sake, man, just TELL her and put everyone out of our misery! And then, fuelled with annoyance and so on I'll think... why don't I just let a little bit of information find it's way in her direction...

 

But of course, those are moments of insanity. Doesn't stop you thinking about it! But let's look at the reality of 'precipitating a d-day':

 

First of all, he'd find out it was me. And that would mean that he would know that I thought I knew better than him about whether he wanted to leave, should leave, should have a choice in keeping a secret from his own W, whether his C should be exposed to his messing around on the side, should have to face their parents arguing, their mother distraught, their father's loss of face, their world collapsing around their ears.

 

Apart from the way such a selfish and irresponsible act would affect his feelings for me, his ability to see me as a future partner, to trust me again in being on his side and respecting his decision to stay or leave and choose that for himself..? Oh, and the lack of concern for his children's well-being, and putting my own immediate needs in front of his better judgement, and how that would impact on any hopes he might hold for my being a good future partner who would be loving and respectful of his children's needs..?

 

Apart from all that, my own disgust with myself for such a lack of self-control, of taking matters that don't concern me into my own hands, of undermining the man I profess to love and respect would be completely self-defeating.

 

And that's leaving aside the future nightmares that would result from a d-day... when everyone knows that the best way to segue into a new relationship isn't being the piece of ass who broke up his current marriage...

 

Hmm... and on the plus side, what would be gained..? Not seeing too many pluses here...

 

Hence, no, not when I'm in my right mind

[OldEurope]

"Calm down"? Maybe you ought to read again without adding your own perception of emotional overtones.

 

I'm just pointing out that in an already anonymous venue, there's little need for subterfuge and game-playing. So, if someone considers their screen-name to be vested with some sort of credibility, why not use it to it's full advantage?

 

And I don't know what "hex squad" you're referring to. Are you talking about people who don't agree that it's okay to interfere with other people's marriages or commit adultery. Because that's not bashing. That's just opinion. It's presumption for one to assume they know exactly another member's emotional intent on the basis of a few blurbs posted on the internet.

 

Honestly, I don't see why people would get their drawers in such a bunch anyway. Why would anyone care is some anonymous internet user doesn't like them or doesn't agree with their position? Seems to me that people who are soooooo emotionally unstable as to invest in the opinions of strangers have more problems than they can hope to solve on a message board.

 

 

LJ, in your first response to Mr Wright (first and last I assume) you told him not to act "chicken****" and post his "real" username. When ya gotta start bringing out the asteriks to express yourself, it certainly is an emotional response. A little too much so.

 

Frannie said it well a few posts back. It is because each of us develops a certain "personality" on this forum, has a known history and story, and anonymous or not, many of these posters are sought out for their wisdom, not exactly their admitted mistakes or harsher opinions. Right or wrong, the writer behind the screen name wants to live up to that reputation because essentially he or she is flattered that their help is sought out. This is really not a chat room. This is a forum to help people in terrible need. Quite frankly I thought it nice that Mr Wright switched hats to present another side of himself because he wanted to make sure he would not alienate people who have come to rely on him. I don't see this as game playing at all.

 

And you know perfectly well the "hex squad" I am referring to. A trio of threads or so aimed at OW by embittered BS-es (one or two) put several women here--women who are seeking help-- once more on the defensive, and none of it is productive (ie. "Go ask your MM these questions and see what he says, signed Ms. Holier Than Thou"). I mean, it reached high-school cattiness proportions.

 

It is all what prompted Mr Wright to write in the first place. So.....

[reboot]

Frannie said it well a few posts back. It is because each of us develops a certain "personality" on this forum, has a known history and story, and anonymous or not, many of these posters are sought out for their wisdom, not exactly their admitted mistakes or harsher opinions.

Exactly why some of us don't understand why he chose not to admit who he is. Is he ashamed of his past? It didn't sound like he was. No one seemed to think he should be. So why sneak around to say it? He's taking the side of OW/OM but is embarrassed that anyone know who he is when he does so? It just seems odd to me.

 

I would think it would lend more credibility to future posts personally.

[overandout]

LOL.

 

Do I give the long or the short answer here..? I'll give a few thoughts.

 

Firstly, yes, I've thought about it in the past. Especially when I've felt wound up or powerless, angry or frustrated. And especially when he's been saying one thing and doing another. Faffing about and talking about how he doesn't know how to tell her... I've thought for goodness sake, man, just TELL her and put everyone out of our misery! And then, fuelled with annoyance and so on I'll think... why don't I just let a little bit of information find it's way in her direction...

 

But of course, those are moments of insanity. Doesn't stop you thinking about it! But let's look at the reality of 'precipitating a d-day':

 

First of all, he'd find out it was me. And that would mean that he would know that I thought I knew better than him about whether he wanted to leave, should leave, should have a choice in keeping a secret from his own W, whether his C should be exposed to his messing around on the side, should have to face their parents arguing, their mother distraught, their father's loss of face, their world collapsing around their ears.

 

Apart from the way such a selfish and irresponsible act would affect his feelings for me, his ability to see me as a future partner, to trust me again in being on his side and respecting his decision to stay or leave and choose that for himself..? Oh, and the lack of concern for his children's well-being, and putting my own immediate needs in front of his better judgement, and how that would impact on any hopes he might hold for my being a good future partner who would be loving and respectful of his children's needs..?

 

Apart from all that, my own disgust with myself for such a lack of self-control, of taking matters that don't concern me into my own hands, of undermining the man I profess to love and respect would be completely self-defeating.

 

And that's leaving aside the future nightmares that would result from a d-day... when everyone knows that the best way to segue into a new relationship isn't being the piece of ass who broke up his current marriage...

 

Hmm... and on the plus side, what would be gained..? Not seeing too many pluses here...

 

Hence, no, not when I'm in my right mind

 

 

If he wanted you he would leave.

He dithers so that he perpetuates the best of both worlds for him.

[KenzieAbsolutely]

it is his story.. and a good happy one for him at that..

It doesn't mean that becuase he said his words that it should be applied to all the OW/MM issues on LS though..

 

 

this statement right here speaks volumes for both sides, even if you didn't realize it. same could be said for the the other side: It doesn't mean that because yourself or someone you knew was in that situation that their negative results should be applied to all OW/MM on LS.

 

and i think, as was stated by mrwright himself and others, that the point was not to give out hope (false or otherwise) but to simply stop applying your opinion to other people's relationships as fact, as in "he will leave you" or "he is a cheating classless scumbag" or "his wife doesn't deserve this" "he doesn't love you or respect you" or "all married men never leave their wives."

 

and i for one don't blame him for changing his name. if he is as respected as he says on this board, even though it's anonymous, he doesn't want the advice he gives and receives to be tainted by what he sees as unfair and unimportant opinions and bias, and judging by the way this board is, there would be no way around that. some people keep bringing up the "it's anonymous, why does it matter anyway?" well, i would pose the same question to those people: other than wanting to know who it is just to know, why does it matter anyway? he made his point, he did it his way. take it as you will.