Is It Wrong To Smell Manly Now?

[peace_pipe]

Depression is on the rise amongst women, most analysist believing it is because they work full-time for 73% of a man's salary and still do something like 80% of the housework and child-rearing, leading to lost quality of life.

 

I am not sure where you got those statistics from, but I find it interesting.

 

I have done more housework than EVERY woman I have ever lived with. I have also done most of the cooking and I am always working full time.

 

So this kind of backs up my point that men are getting the short end of the stick.

 

It's become acceptable for women not to fill their previous roles, even if not at all.

 

Now I must ask you, would it be acceptable to you if your man did not work and wanted to be a house-husband? Would you even consider dating such a man?

 

So men still get to keep their old fashioned roles and women get to shed the ones they don't want. Equal?

[Kamille]

I do agree that it is not a zero sum game but many people including many women treat it like that. I don't want to return to the 1950s where women were treated like 2nd class citizens but I also refuse to be a whipping boy for a woman with a vendetta against men. I will give respect but I expect it in return. I do think that the feminist movement started out as a positive and could have accomplished so much more if it weren't hijacked by the crazies in the 70s and 80s.

 

Again - agreed. Feminism did invest the male-female relationships as though it was a zero-sum game and that was definitely their biggest downfall.

[Kamille]

I am not sure where you got those statistics from, but I find it interesting.

 

I have done more housework than EVERY woman I have ever lived with. I have also done most of the cooking and I am always working full time.

 

So this kind of backs up my point that men are getting the short end of the stick.

 

It's become acceptable for women not to fill their previous roles, even if not at all.

 

Now I must ask you, would it be acceptable to you if your man did not work and wanted to be a house-husband? Would you even consider dating such a man?

 

So men still get to keep their old fashioned roles and women get to shed the ones they don't want. Equal?

 

The stats are from the Canada census.

 

And honestly! I work something like 80 hours on a regular basis and I fantasize about having a house-husband. I don't see how else I could pursue my career and have children.

 

But that is me and I would suspect that my take on this would be different then the majority of women.

[Woggle]

I also did 85% of the houswork with my ex and I earned all the money yet it still wasn't enough. I wasn't giving her enough attention but when I tried to hug her or kiss her not even trying to get sex I was pushed away. No matter what I did I was wrong and that is the way many men feel. No matter what we do we are wrong and it will never be good enough to please her.

[peace_pipe]

I also did 85% of the houswork with my ex and I earned all the money yet it still wasn't enough. I wasn't giving her enough attention but when I tried to hug her or kiss her not even trying to get sex I was pushed away. No matter what I did I was wrong and that is the way many men feel. No matter what we do we are wrong and it will never be good enough to please her.

 

I have felt like this many times.

 

There were times when I was working really hard earning $, for US, I thought.

 

I thought it would be appreciated. But she was too immature to understand life and took my passion for work as lack of interest in her.

 

On the other hand, if I wasn't the bread winner, we'd have no money and life would not be much fun.

[Woggle]

Again - agreed. Feminism did invest the male-female relationships as though it was a zero-sum game and that was definitely their biggest downfall.

 

And now they wonder why feminism is a dirty word today and why they are losing ground. Look up The Scum Manifesto, Andrea Dworkin. Mary Daley and other names and ask yourself if you would support this type of stuff if you were a man. If you switched the name men with blacks or jews it would sound like something a neo-nazi would say. Even my angriest posts can't come close to the hatred I have heard coming from feminists mouths.

[peace_pipe]

And now they wonder why feminism is a dirty word today and why they are losing ground. Look up The Scum Manifesto, Andrea Dworkin. Mary Daley and other names and ask yourself if you would support this type of stuff if you were a man. If you switched the name men with blacks or jews it would sound like something a neo-nazi would say. Even my angriest posts can't come close to the hatred I have heard coming from feminists mouths.

 

As far as I am concerned, feminists can have all the feminine they need.

 

Because they aren't worthy of any of my masculine

[Woggle]

I have felt like this many times.

 

There were times when I was working really hard earning $, for US, I thought.

 

I thought it would be appreciated. But she was too immature to understand life and took my passion for work as lack of interest in her.

 

On the other hand, if I wasn't the bread winner, we'd have no money and life would not be much fun.

 

There were also the double standards. If I had a beer or two with my friends she would flip out but it was perfectly okay for her to sit home unemployed and drink hard liquor all day sometimes to the point of passing out. Sometimes I would come home and find her passed out on the couch with a bottle of bacardi on the coffee table. A lot of men are just tired of doing our best to be decent men and then having this crap thrown in our faces while the scum of the male gender are winning.

[peace_pipe]

There were also the double standards. If I had a beer or two with my friends she would flip out but it was perfectly okay for her to sit home unemployed and drink hard liquor all day sometimes to the point of passing out. Sometimes I would come home and find her passed out on the couch with a bottle of bacardi on the coffee table. A lot of men are just tired of doing our best to be decent men and then having this crap thrown in our faces while the scum of the male gender are winning.

 

Woggle, you are very realistic in your perception of things. Some would call you a pessimist. Rather, you are a realist.

 

There is a HUGE difference.

 

Yes, only the stupid are breeding.

 

Men are putting up this behavior from women because they are lonely and realize this behavior is becoming the "norm".

 

Women will always complain about making less $$ than men. And it is true that some do make less than men when they shouldn't.

 

But women don't need as much money as men, because the seldom ever have to buy their own drinks, pay their own rent or for college.

 

I've met more 20 - something women being taken care of by Daddy lately that it makes me sick.

[Woggle]

I think that women should be paid the same as men for the same work and I do agree that sexism exists in the workplace. I have seen it myself and it is wrong but 9 times out 10 when I have met women with fu-ked up lives they have put themselves in that situation. I am sorry but I have a hard time having sympathy for a rich white girl coasting on daddy's money who wants to blame men for everything. Let her live in the ghetto and have to bust her ass for that money and then we will see how oppressed she is. Also the men that are out there with the priveledge and power are only a small percentage of men. Most men out there just like most women are busting their ass trying to make in this society. The typicaly male blue collar workers are actually the hardest hit by trickle down economics.

[The Collector]

99% of jobs, men and women are being paid the exact same. The super-well-paid jobs are still in the the same white, male corporate hands, and that's what distorts the 'average' figures women love to quote. But the vast majority of men benefit not at all from this pay disparity. They don't dish it out at the Patriarchy Meets you know.

[Art_Critic]

99% of jobs, men and women are being paid the exact same.

 

If you don't mind could you please post your source for this.. I'm curious as to the accuracy of this statement.

 

I'm not saying it isn't true but as an employer myself I see quite a bit more than a 1% difference in the part of the business world I'm in.

Heck the statistical anomaly should be at least 3% even if they were really equal

[hot1234]

Woggle, you are very realistic in your perception of things. Some would call you a pessimist. Rather, you are a realist.

 

There is a HUGE difference.

 

Yes, only the stupid are breeding.

 

Men are putting up this behavior from women because they are lonely and realize this behavior is becoming the "norm".

 

Women will always complain about making less $$ than men. And it is true that some do make less than men when they shouldn't.

 

But women don't need as much money as men, because the seldom ever have to buy their own drinks, pay their own rent or for college.

 

I've met more 20 - something women being taken care of by Daddy lately that it makes me sick.

puleeeeeeeeeeeeeeze tell me your joking....

[The Collector]

I pulled the statistic out of my ass, but I reckon it's at least 95%. You are not allowed to pay less for a female are you? People get paid the same regardless of gender.

 

Now some people are more likely to get promoted, and like I say, the top jobs belong to men, and I'm not defending that. What I object to is the way that gets twisted to make it sound as if the woman is earning only 70% of the guy sitting next to her doing the same job listening to how he's oppressing her.

 

And yes, once you factor in the free meals, drinks and presents, most women are crying all the way to the bank.

[peace_pipe]

puleeeeeeeeeeeeeeze tell me your joking....

 

I wish I was!

[Saxis]

I also did 85% of the houswork with my ex and I earned all the money yet it still wasn't enough. I wasn't giving her enough attention but when I tried to hug her or kiss her not even trying to get sex I was pushed away. No matter what I did I was wrong and that is the way many men feel. No matter what we do we are wrong and it will never be good enough to please her.

 

Were you dating my XW??

 

There were also the double standards. If I had a beer or two with my friends she would flip out but it was perfectly okay for her to sit home unemployed and drink hard liquor all day sometimes to the point of passing out. Sometimes I would come home and find her passed out on the couch with a bottle of bacardi on the coffee table. A lot of men are just tired of doing our best to be decent men and then having this crap thrown in our faces while the scum of the male gender are winning.

 

Here, here! It wasn't even OK to spend time with friends NOT drinking till 10-11pm, but apparently it was fine for her to get smashed, driving all around town and come home at 3am puking her guts out.

 

 

It's all good... By wanting the divorce, she did me a favor!

[Kasan]

To The Collector--this is probably way off topic but exactly what do you collect?

[roxy_1980]

I think the men in this thread are missing a big part of the picture. Women's grooming routines are much more elaborate and much more painful than men's.

 

We:

- shave our legs and armpits

- pluck our eyebrows

- wax ourselves to an almost pre-puberty state

- blow dry / curl / straighten our hair every day

- apply makeup every day

- wax off any stray facial hair

 

All we as is that men shower, use deodorant and either shave or trim beards. Trust me, you're getting off easy!

[Ocean-Blue]

I absolutely LOVE the way my bf smells. He bathes almost everyday (except for those days when he's not going out or whatever). Also, he rarely, if ever, wears deodorant (same with my ex). And he smells fine...b/c he BATHES everyday!

 

I love the natural scent of a man...but ewwww...I will NOT go south on my bf if he hasn't bathed...that is just gross (as in, he hasn't bathed for the day). And since when did BATHING (we're not talking about perfuming yourself up or using those ridiculous bath gel things...even though I use them...but whatever) become so friggin' political? It's healthy to bathe. Why do you think the Victorians had such low life expectancy? Obviously other factors contributed...but regular bathing is important for good health.

 

Like I said, I love the natural scent of a man (gets me all hot and bothered)...but BO is not my cup of tea. If you shower and just wear a bit of deodorant (or none) you'll allow your natural, masculine scent to come through. If you refuse to shower b/c of the feminists and PCism...well you're going to have BO (after a few days...for some men...the same day)...

 

But whatever. To each his own. Happy garbage picking.

 

And Melody...your posts crack me up.

[roxy_1980]

Woggle, you are very realistic in your perception of things. Some would call you a pessimist. Rather, you are a realist.

 

There is a HUGE difference.

 

Yes, only the stupid are breeding.

 

Men are putting up this behavior from women because they are lonely and realize this behavior is becoming the "norm".

 

Women will always complain about making less $$ than men. And it is true that some do make less than men when they shouldn't.

 

But women don't need as much money as men, because the seldom ever have to buy their own drinks, pay their own rent or for college.

 

I've met more 20 - something women being taken care of by Daddy lately that it makes me sick.

 

Actually, that's not the reality. You're just associating yourself with the wrong type of women.

 

I personally have lived on my own since I was 18 (I'm 26 now). I pay my own damn rent.

 

I don't accept drinks from strangers. If a guy wants to talk to me he can, but I don't know what he could have put in it, so I buy my own.

 

I put myself through college DEBT-FREE TWICE! (And I'm doing it again for my Masters!)

 

I deserve just as much a the man next to me doing the exact same job! I work faster and produce more results than anyone on my team at work. Thankfully, I work in a unionized organization with grid pay systems, so they can't screw me.

[Trialbyfire]

Thanks for the replies guys. Food for thought.

 

These are the kind of questions that fascinate me, because I study power relations (between etnic groups). The big question about power in social sciences is whether it is binary or multidimensional. I believe it is multdimensional. As in, power is not a zero sum game (if one has power, he or she if therefore robbing the other of it).

 

As such, I don't think it is productive to prove 'right' and 'wrong'. I could pull out forum discussions where women are being objectified and ridiculed as sexual objects. I could even pull out stats on household violence.

 

I agree with you that society has changed a lot in the last decades and as a woman, I do appreciate most of the changes. I mean, if it weren't for these, I wouldn't be doing a PhD. I also agree with Woggle. The changes affects society as a whole.

 

Depression is on the rise amongst women, most analysist believing it is because they work full-time for 73% of a man's salary and still do something like 80% of the housework and child-rearing, leading to lost quality of life.

 

So the advantages women have gained also come with a cost. It's not like half the population wins, so the other half loses. These changes are affecting everyone and I don't think pitting ourselves ones against the others is going to help anything.

Okay, I've put my business hat on. Women shouldn't be putting up with getting less. Get educated, know your market value, don't accept anything less.

 

Now for my personal hat. Why would a woman try to be Superwoman, when her spouse isn't Superman?

[tanbark813]

Okay, I've put my business hat on. Women shouldn't be putting up with getting less. Get educated, know your market value, don't accept anything less.

 

That goes for anyone. It may come as a surprise but you don't get offered top dollar simply for having a penis.

[Trialbyfire]

That goes for anyone. It may come as a surprise but you don't get offered top dollar simply for having a penis.

There's an old boys club out there but they are accepting new members, if you can take the heat.

[tanbark813]

There's an old boys club out there but they are accepting new members, if you can take the heat.

 

Good argument. You have me convinced.

[Trialbyfire]

Good argument. You have me convinced.

I can't decide if that's sarcasm or not, so I'll take it at face value.

 

It's a matter of not taking it seriously because it's all a game of one-upmanship and strategic alliances. The concept is to get the most for you which if your company is lucky, is beneficial for your firm.

 

Never let 'em see you sweat. Once you do, you're done.