NC when something good happens SUCKS

[AriaIncognito]

I'm with Sedgwick and TBF on this one. Holy crap he is screaming afraid of commitment.

 

I saw so much of my ex in that list you posted.

 

You deserve more than someone who wants to have everything how they want it, else they walk. So much more.

 

When you (and I) find that something more we are going to wonder what we ever saw in these men.

[AriaIncognito]

I hate to think that the old "we want what we can't have" thing is true, and that I was *too* good to him. How do you hold back from someone you really love? It makes me sad to think about not doing things for him.

 

 

This has me thinking back to one of the last conversations I remember with my ex. He told me that i treated him like a king and that he didn't know how to take that. He also said he felt bad because of it, because he knew he wasn't treating me anywhere near as well.

 

It really makes me wonder what it is they want. I guess they want a crappy relationship where not much emotion is showed. But personally, I want the one I was in, with a guy as in it as I was.

[carrotgirl]

Just to be clear, the ex didn't present me with a list. These things weren't said in any particular order. The ex said many things while we talked for many hours. I wrote them down and then grouped them this way later.

 

Carrot

[underpants]

All that I really took from the list was alot of the use of "I". Not us, not we. This (to me) is telling of his perspective and of where he lays his value. He is thinking of himself. Those kind of statements don't read (to me) as relationship improvement suggestions.

 

There is no "I" in Team.

 

 

 

I dunno, are you going to go and have dinner with him tomorrow?

[underpants]

10. I want to know you care about me without you doing things for me.

11. I care about you.

 

Hee hee hee,

 

I would have delightful fun with this. During work of course.

 

Why didn't you help me out with (work project)?

Because I care.

 

Why didn't you tell me about such and such?

Because I care.

 

Why didn't you partner with me for golf?

Because I care.

 

I hope you aren't upset that I didn't say Hi in the elevator.

I know it was because you care.

 

....Carrot. I think he just wants to be friends. I can't say what led him to that decision but that is all I read from his statements.

[carrotgirl]

I've had a day doing nothing to think about all this.

 

If nothing else, this is a man who cares about enough to call me on my shyte as kindly as he knows how to do. Perhaps too kindly. I didn't hear until he walked away and I almost didn't hear at all.

 

Ladies, I don't know if the gents will come forward and say or naysay but I think the ex is asking for the same consideration I ask for from any prospective wooer. And I think his quiet point is valid. I didn't love him unconditionally. I thought I that's what I was showing. But I was showing him the exact opposite. It's lucky for both of us that he knew my intent. He knew I wasn't being a doormat. He knew I wasn't trading sex for his love or gifts for his affection.

 

But he was hurt by my withdrawing from him when he did something that disappointed me or angered me. He didn't understand it. He only saw that I was ignoring him. Which flies in the face of what I know of behavior modification, reward what is wanted, ignore what isn't. But then again, people are individuals. He saw my withdrawal as trying to punish. I understand that for the first time today. I see how it was that way for him.

 

I don't think any of this is ego for him. To the contrary, he likes that my ego is sizable enough so that he can rest his. We can put the ego away when we're together and be ourselves without worrying about causing offense by misstepping in the I'm so cool and sexy dance. If there is any ego boost at all, it comes from feeling like a man who is doing something nice for a friend. That's fair.

 

I think he's offering all he has to offer. He's giving me what little time and energy he has left over from just getting through the day. I'm sorry if you think this is foolish but I can't look at that as trivial. Quite honestly, it's far more generous than I've been with him. So he has decided that now there is a price for his friendship. The price I pay is to stop giving what he doesn't want. He doesn't see it as a positive. He wants me to give to myself first and give to him second or not at all.

 

He wants me to appreciate him for who he is the way he appreciates me for who I am. He wants me to stop doing things that say I love you and trust that he knows I love him. He's asking me to trust that he loves me that same way. He wants unconditional acceptance and love. He wants me to face my fear more and communicate better and maybe differently. He wants me to speak freely and to let him do the same without getting hurt or angry by something he says. He just wants me to accept the way a friend does.

 

This isn't a blanket don't show concern or care for me request. It's his request that I stop showing I care by helping and instead just say it or say and do nothing. He knew I knew he'd been missing class. He knew I knew he went hermit crab. He thought I didn't care. He was comforted to hear I still cared enough to worry. And he was glad I didn't try to push my will onto the situation.

 

He wants to be friends. I don't know if I'm capable. I don't know if we can be friends if I'm in love with him and he's not in love with me. It creates a huge imbalance. And I'm not sure I can really be genuine because I will want the relationship to be something else. I don't know if I will go to dinner tomorrow. I do know it's not a play to get into my pants. It's not about ego since when I'm unhappy his ego suffers. It's not about shutting me up since all he has to do is say okay, let's not be in contact.

 

He's showing me I'm important to him. He's showing me he's going to take care of himself first but I'm still important to him. Now that he's working for my firm I know his time constraints are real and considerable. Plus he's going to school. It's midterms this week. I know the two gifts of time he's giving me this weekend are huge. He wouldn't spend that time with me if he didn't want to. He wouldn't spend that time with me if he didn't like ME. I can appreciate that for what it is or not.

 

Still not decided about dinner.

 

I'd like to hear from some of the guys out there too if you wouldn't mind?

 

Carrot

[underpants]

A male perspective would be good.

 

I am bumping your thread so you might get some responses.

 

Have you already agreed to meet him for dinner tomorrow?

 

If you go there are 2 ways to play that time. Either way you play it I would have someplace to be at an alloted time and I would dress to kill.

[carrotgirl]

Hi Undies. I'm stressing a bit. Yah. Where are all the men-types?

 

We agreed to have dinner though I didn't have an answer for him regarding friendship so he knows dinner is also on the line. I could go either way. He also knows I could show up for dinner and still change my mind about anything else. No guarantees. He's committed to being my friend. Period. He'll honor my request for space if I choose that.

 

He's not afraid of me being in his space. I know he has trouble not touching me. He knows I have trouble not touching him. I expect we'll both be very wary of touching more than a hug. He's not going to want to go there. Pretty sure. This is after all, two friends having dinner. Which to me still technically spells date but I'm trying to squelch that thought.

 

Undies, if I go, it's a casual dinner at home. The most I plan on exposing beyond face and hands are collarbones, earlobes and possibly toes. If I can find a jumper in my closet that doesn't make me look like a fuzzy cupcake, I'm going with that. Comfort and touchability are key, not sexpotness.

 

He's asked me to stop giving. I'm considering bringing something else to do like sculpting clay or paints while we watch a movie together. It'll give me something to do with my hands besides um, want to touch. It's either that or I put my head in his lap and get some sleep. I'm knackered.

 

Truly aside from everything else, it would be good to accept just because I wouldn't mind having his excellent cooking. I joked here about his healthful ways but I've been eating out of tins for a month and he knows it! Sad. Very sad. He told me last night he wanted to deck a guy at the office for mouthing off about my eating habits.

 

Last night he also brought up the rat incident from last month http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1338147. I was blown away. I'd forgotten about it. He didn't forget. He was angry. He's still angry. He even went and did some digging about the situation and decided I was still absolutely brilliant and the man that took me on was an idiot. He was only sorry I didn't I didn't cut the guy to ribbons and still wonders why I didn't.

 

That was kind of nice.

Carrot

[carrotgirl]

Unders, since you suggest sexy, I'm compromising. I pulled an old dress out for tomorrow. Silk. Very Stevie Nicks. Very casz. Perfect with jeans and a sweater on a cool night. An amazing amount of skin without looking like it's trying.

 

I still haven't decided.

 

I'm deeply in love with this man. Since he has said he doesn't love me, I don't see a point in trying anything. I don't have any desire to feel worse. And then there's my stomach and it's telling me all I have to do is stay in the moment.

 

I'm going to nap a bit. Still so tired.

 

Carrot

[underpants]

Unders, since you suggest sexy, I'm compromising. I pulled an old dress out for tomorrow. Silk. Very Stevie Nicks. Very casz. Perfect with jeans and a sweater on a cool night. An amazing amount of skin without looking like it's trying.

 

I still haven't decided.

 

I'm deeply in love with this man. Since he has said he doesn't love me, I don't see a point in trying anything. I don't have any desire to feel worse. And then there's my stomach and it's telling me all I have to do is stay in the moment.

 

I'm going to nap a bit. Still so tired.

 

Carrot

 

 

I know ....where are the boys to enlighten us as to what play would ...snap their head straight?

 

I dunno Carrot. In my core I don't think any game/act will really work. However, I do so love to muse them. Also, I have some personal stories that I should jot down and write a silly book.

 

He does seemed at the very least, confused. That is sad and no reflection on you. Simply because he does not read as invested in the outcome/continuation of a romantic relationship with you.

 

If you pull out the sexy yet understated party dress then you should forego the clay and paints idea, along with the staying for a movie. Get out sexy and fast. If he ask why you are so dressed up and nice looking respond with the fact that you have plans to meet up with a friend after dinner...no futher explanation beyond ...meeting a friend. Maybe even have a seperate friend call you at an alloted time to make sure you stick to your plan. If he does 'come on to you' then recripocate passionately for about 10-15 seconds and then just leave in a faked confusion.

 

That is a game. It is a silly game designed to heighted his arousal level and compound the loss. If he bites...as in (another thread) then I would suggest a real conversation about what a relationship would mean to both of you and finding a common ground. I just don't think this dinner is the time or circumstances (2x4) for him to be open to the conversation.

 

I will just say for the record. Do not ....have sex with him (do what you have to to ensure that this will not happen). Necklace to remind you...forget to shave something...whatever. Do not entertain the idea of having sex with the ex. Just leave him wishing he had sex.

 

He won't know swirling. Give him more swirling. In an understated and classy and aloof way.

[carrotgirl]

If you pull out the sexy yet understated party dress then you should forego the clay and paints idea, along with the staying for a movie. Get out sexy and fast. If he ask why you are so dressed up and nice looking respond with the fact that you have plans to meet up with a friend after dinner...no futher explanation beyond ...meeting a friend. Maybe even have a seperate friend call you at an alloted time to make sure you stick to your plan. If he does 'come on to you' then recripocate passionately for about 10-15 seconds and then just leave in a faked confusion.

 

That is a game. It is a silly game designed to heighted his arousal level and compound the loss. If he bites...as in (another thread) then I would suggest a real conversation about what a relationship would mean to both of you and finding a common ground. I just don't think this dinner is the time or circumstances (2x4) for him to be open to the conversation.

 

I will just say for the record. Do not ....have sex with him (do what you have to to ensure that this will not happen). Necklace to remind you...forget to shave something...whatever. Do not entertain the idea of having sex with the ex. Just leave him wishing he had sex.

 

He won't know swirling. Give him more swirling. In an understated and classy and aloof way.

 

Unders games are not for me. I'm uncomfortable with the direction this conversation is going in. You may be right, but I would not know how to ptoject myself as something I'm not.

 

The idea of using sex as a tool for anything other than genuine enjoyment of each other actually rather sickens me. Should there be any of that there would no way in hell I'd start playing silly denial games. Firstly, it's not in me and secondly, the ex would see through that.

 

I will say, of course he doesn't read as interested in continuing. He broke up with me after all. I will err on the side of misrepresenting interest as being absent here rather than tell a dramatic story rooted in falseness. I have no indication he has changed his mind. Until he tells me in no uncertain terms he wants me back, I assume he doesn't.

 

But there is also understanding how he behaves and we spoke a while about bullsh*t game playing and actions meaning what actions mean. We know each other and understand each other on this score. His actions say please be in my life. It's up to me do I want to prove myself to him.

 

I am being tested for loyalty and commitment. Not the other way around.

[kirikat]

Oh Carrot... what a mess.

 

Everything he says is "I love you" followed by the "But I dont love you"

 

Im so sorry. I wish I had advice, but you know something.... if you want him, walk away. I just wish that I could tell you that IF you do - it will be the pattern for the rest of your life.

[carrotgirl]

kirikat, thanks for the input. Could you explain what you mean? I'm sitting here saying huh? If I want him and walk away it will be a pattern for the rest of my life?

 

Carrot

[Spinderella]

Because you post intelligently, you can make a convincing logic out of what is basically the same as most people do at the end of a relationship.

Rejection. Self doubt (what could I do/have done differently). Denial.

 

Friendship.

Other girlfriends/boyfriends, what happens then? Is it possible to love so much that this does not hurt you? Is it possible to let go of the relationship while still being in this close contact?

Only you know.

 

 

Maybe you should start a new thread asking for a male perspective.

[sao2]

MALE PROSPECTIVE:

I think you should create as much space between the two of you as possible. Right now true friendship between the two of you just won't work. You both need time to get your feelings unraveled because frankly both of you are really confused right now.

 

He wants a friendship with you without expectations. Maybe he wants you to wait for him, maybe he doesn't, I couldn't tell you. What I can tell you is that it is unhealthy for you to be involved with him in any way right now. It is unhealthy for you to wait for him.

 

My ex and I had alot of issues about expectations in a relationship and unconditional love. I was made to feel guilty about my expectations within the relationship and "not accepting what she was giving". The fact of the matter is though that a relationship without expectations is not a relationship. It is closer to the relationship one has with acquaintances than friendship.

 

There is a struggle between "just accepting what he has to give" and "not being satisfied with what he has to give". The list you gave worries me because I think you might be tempted to feel guilty about having expectations and you shouldn't feel guilty about that.

 

Anyways good luck on tonights dinner. I think whether or not you go the "sexy" route depends on whether you really want him back or you just want the pain to go away. If you just want the pain to go away I suggest you cancel the dinner. I know it seems impossible right now but given time he will be just a memory like the other ex's in your past that you never thought you would get over

[carrotgirl]

Spind, that kind of hurt. I know I'm not different from anyone else in the muck. I get that we're not a couple now. I do. I'm not clinging and I'm not dependent on the ex's validation.

 

Things probably would be a lot easier if I didn't have to see the guy every day now. But that isn't an option either. We did talk about handling that if I go the NC route.

 

There are good reasons not to bother with NC. For starters, it doesn't seem like a very practical option since we're interacting all the time. Avoiding the ex cost me more in energy and emotion than just sucking up a bad situation. I turned into a completely out of control mess.

 

And that's on my head. Not the ex. This isn't something he is doing to me. In this case I really do have a problem with handling myself in this. I'm fighting what I think is right because doing what I thought was right helped get me here in the first place. Bad internal conflict.

 

It's tough. Defending the ex isn't putting myself down or internalizing. It's hard not to defend the guy when because of my poor, albeit logical, presentation of him, he gets virtually shafted from afar. I leave out a lot in favor of yammering with y'all about the things that are most difficult for me to manage!

 

You're dead on about the friendship and acceptance part. I am capable of being friends. But only if I bury everything else. And I stubbornly don't want to do that. I feel like a two year old crying for a toy. I want him. I want him. Only he isn't a toy and I'm not two.

[carrotgirl]

MALE PROSPECTIVE:Anyways good luck on tonights dinner. I think whether or not you go the "sexy" route depends on whether you really want him back or you just want the pain to go away. If you just want the pain to go away I suggest you cancel the dinner. I know it seems impossible right now but given time he will be just a memory like the other ex's in your past that you never thought you would get over

 

Sao, I am missing some of what you're saying here. I'm against trickery and games because I think they're a waste of energy. But if they're effective maybe it's time for me to reconsider.

 

What is the meaning with if you want him back ? I'm not acting dense about this. I really AM dense about this. I don't understand what the difference in effect is whether I go or don't go. And please explain the sexy thing. Dense again.

 

Do I want him back? Yes! emphatically yes. I just haven't gone over and over and over that because I thought it was implicit and the big, big reason, well, it doesn't seem like there's anything I can do to change the situation.

 

I don't understand why people are suggesting some kind of sex lure or even that I should avoid having sex with the ex. I don't think sex is on the table at all at this point. I think as much as the ex would like to get laid and we'd have lots of fun, he'd probably rather cut off his arm since he wants to be strong about not getting back together. Or so it would seem.

 

Except for the friends part. I honestly don't know of many exes who really remain friends after a breakup. Most people don't want anything to do with their exes. I've never known a man to break up with a woman and then be friends with her unless he wanted something more or was unsure. But I'm going OT with that...

 

Sex was a non issue for us. We're hot for each other. It was great. We had lots of it. Mixed it up. Stay in bed for a weekend loving each other goodness. Plain old physical stuff like cuddling and hugging and hand holding and caressing were all good, all plentiful and on both sides.

 

He's attracted. I'm attracted. And yet, he broke up with me anyway. So I'm not feeling like I'm going to lure him with any sexy Carrot bait. But if I'm dead wrong about this oh my god please educate me because yah! If I'm blowing some chances because I'm too proud to get in the dirt because he didn't get in the dirt first or I'm missing some subtle physical guy clues?

 

Otherwise, jeans and dress for me and no big sexy thing. It's just dinner and a movie.

 

Carrot

[Spinderella]

I didnt mean it to hurt and I wasnt suggesting that you thought of yourself as different. Maybe just suggesting that it might be easy for you to make a convincing argument out of denial.

It was an opinion of mine that you were in denial, and I'm sorry, it seems I was wrong about that.

I think turning into an out of control mess is a first stage, but neccessary. Again this is my opinion, but it is based on not only my own experiences, but of the many, many posts on here, from people trying to avoid the inevitable.

You have talked to him now, and its a good thing. He will know why you have to go the NC route and he will accept it, even if he doesnt like it. Perhaps last time around there was more confusion.

I dont know about stubborn. Its human, and maybe not what you consider a desirable quality. I do understand this. I think that you cannot mentally force an acceptance though. That the state of being that enables such unconditional love needs to be worked on, so that the unconditional love happens naturally. That can only come from allowing those emotions to happen, without fighting them in yourself.

[Spinderella]

All this suggestion of luring with sex. Bad Bad idea. It is the female equivalent of the man that tries to lure the woman back in with gifts, practical help...you name it.

Be dignified. If he no longer wants the relationship, then he no longer gets the relationship. Dangling a carrot in front of him is just pointless. He knows that he does not get to have sex with her anymore, and he knows that she is sexy. She doesnt need to prove it, and he was attracted to her the way she was.

[sao2]

I am saying there is a difference between wanting to be back together with him and wanting the pain to go away. If what you want is the pain to go away it is best to leave things be and go your own way.

 

Seeing as you want him back don't lure him with sex, that really won't work. I say PLAY THE GAME. It is not trickery or underhanded, you just want him back.

 

I say don't do the movie. Renting a movie and watching it at home is the quickest way to sex. After dinner say you have a great time at dinner but that the movie "wouldn't be a good idea". If you do the movie sit on different couches(this will be difficult). No cuddling, if he asks why leave and say you are confused right now. I know it is hard but you need to flip the script. You need to be the one who is confused about where things are, not him.

[carrotgirl]

Okay, let's get something straight. Go ahead and laugh because I'm laughing.

 

Carrot thinks the whole lure with sex thing is pointless. Always has thought so. But if the lure with sex thing works, that is a different story I would be willing to listen to. Not because I am keen on the idea but because I'm trying to do something different with myself rather than the same old thing. You know, the what's the definition of insanity....

 

Next, Carrot predicts it will be a very cold night before the ex reaches for more than a hug. Stubborn. The man is stubborn. I know he likes holding me. I know there is chemistry. He knows I know. Oh god. Now I'm thinking about sex with him. Great.

 

Finally. Carrot is clueless when it comes to the game. Sao, please spell it out for me because this is something I don't understand at all. I don't know what the game is. I've never known what the game is. I am and always have been plain old what you see is what you get Carrot. I'd LOVE to learn the game. What is it?

[carrotgirl]

All this suggestion of luring with sex. Bad Bad idea. It is the female equivalent of the man that tries to lure the woman back in with gifts, practical help...you name it.

Be dignified. If he no longer wants the relationship, then he no longer gets the relationship. Dangling a carrot in front of him is just pointless. He knows that he does not get to have sex with her anymore, and he knows that she is sexy. She doesnt need to prove it, and he was attracted to her the way she was.

 

Yah! That's exactly my thinking. Thanks. I really thought I was losing it again. If he already broke up with me, what? The sex was great (it was really, REALLY GREAT) and not enough to keep him so how is that supposed to be a lure now? People say you're the bait Carrot and I'm just huh? Huh? What? How can I be the bait? I don't get that at all.

[carrotgirl]

I'm playing mental games with myself. I've been on the verge of tears for over an hour. I know what I want. I don't know what to do.

[Spinderella]

Carrot,

I think "the game" would consist of something similar to what you were doing before. You know. The thing that made him start going crazy, walking past your desk, trying to get attention....

The thing that made him come over, and the thing that made him invite you to dinner.

It need not involve dishonesty really, but, an okay, I am getting on with my life, you are not the centre of my world, I have a great life and if you dont want to be a part of it, then ok, I will accept completely your decision. COMPLETELY. Of course this would have the efect of making him a bit frantic, panicking...

He might decide he wants Carrot back, and may suggest getting back together. The thing is, that you need to make sure he is sure at that point. If you want to play the game, play it well, but, dont lose sight of the goal.

The goal is not to make him think he wants you. The goal is a good relationship with two people who are dedicated to making it work. You need to be sure he can commit to that, and for him to be sure, he has to have had enough time AWAY from you, to reflect on what he really wants.

[underpants]

Carrot,

 

I am sorry if I offended you.

 

I also hate games, although sometimes you are forced to play them. It is better to walk away and not play. However, you are walking the line of wanting him back and trying to salvage some sort of friendship with him. All to suit him, understand him....then you. (that is how I read it.)

 

If you go to dinner to see him. Wear what you like and what makes you feel confident. I would not suggest staying for a movie. Have someplace you have to be.

 

I read far to many ...whoops, I had sex with my ex threads. I just don't want to see one started by you.

 

It would be great if you two could sit down and really discuss how to get over this rough patch and build a better relationship together. However, I don't think he is capable of that right now. He is feeling the loss but he is not feeling it enough to be open, wanting to, have that discussion. IMO he should persue that discussion and anything until then is an excercise in letting go and showing him what he is losing.

 

That is why I suggested a subtle restrained yet passionate Carrot that breezes over for dinner only and leaves with him wanting more.

 

I do hope some men chime in, because I don't want to give you bad advice.

 

When/if he wants you enough or his eyes are opened to what he has lost enough he will be the one to initiate the talk of reconciliation.

 

I agree that you should flip the script, yet remain open to communicating. From what I have read you are already doing this to a degree. If he can find his way back to Carrot, then great. If not then you have not gotten yourself too dirty.

 

Good luck Carrot