Author carrotgirl Posted October 14, 2007 Author Share Posted October 14, 2007 Going over there in an hour. He's making me dinner. I guess we'll see. Link to post Share on other sites
Author carrotgirl Posted October 15, 2007 Author Share Posted October 15, 2007 Dinner was good. The ex made a fabulous tagine. I felt spoiled. We skipped the movie. I started crying so that sort of killed the mood anyway. We talked a bit and then he walked me home. Sao, Unders, Spind, I simply have no game in me. It was a frank conversation. The unconditional love thing was pretty dead on. The bottom of it all reason for his dumping me was because he didn't think I would ever love him. He's pushing friendship. I still don't have an answer. I may never have an answer. Link to post Share on other sites
AriaIncognito Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 Dinner was good. The ex made a fabulous tagine. I felt spoiled. We skipped the movie. I started crying so that sort of killed the mood anyway. We talked a bit and then he walked me home. Sao, Unders, Spind, I simply have no game in me. It was a frank conversation. The unconditional love thing was pretty dead on. The bottom of it all reason for his dumping me was because he didn't think I would ever love him. He's pushing friendship. I still don't have an answer. I may never have an answer. I might get pelted by other posters, but I'm not sure unconditional love really exists for relationships. Perhaps it exists between parents and their children. I just dont really see love as being unconditional when you are making the choice to be in the situation. Link to post Share on other sites
sao2 Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 I agree, unconditional love is a myth and isn't even be an ideal. My ex claimed her love for me was unconditional, and it didn't ever feel that great. Don't beat yourself up over not loving him unconditionally, all love has conditions, even if that condition is to love him unconditionally. As for friendship, you can easily say it is too soon for that but maybe someday you will be ready for that. Don't jump into a friendship with the ex if you want more. Link to post Share on other sites
Spinderella Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 Carrot, You did good. I dont think "the game" should ever be dishonest. You got the answers that you really needed to hear. I dont know what you said in return to him. I differ in opinion, in that I think unconditional love should be a goal, but, I think there are probably only a handful of people who have actually achieved totally unconditional love in anything other than a parent - child relationship. BUT there are degrees of unconditional, and if you really were very far from love, then, maybe it is something you need to work on. Of course, his love wasnt completely unconditional either;) Has he lost faith in that you will ever be able to love him starting now? Can I just ask some things? Who bought up the subject? Were those his exact words? You know the old "it's easy to prove a theory...." Link to post Share on other sites
Spinderella Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 After reading some other threads and posting on them, I realised that nobody is really giving you the credit to know the truth of your relationship. So, you think you were suffering from "nice girl syndrome"? Feeling superior in your giving, and trying to ensure your security with your giving? So ultimately he felt that the relationship that you were having was all about you, and lost trust in you? It is good to have realised it, if that is true. What now with him? Did you tell him that you have realised this? Link to post Share on other sites
Author carrotgirl Posted October 15, 2007 Author Share Posted October 15, 2007 Has he lost faith in that you will ever be able to love him starting now? Can I just ask some things? Who bought up the subject? Were those his exact words? You know the old "it's easy to prove a theory...." He knows I love him now. He's possibly testing that love. I don't know. I still think there is a disconnect here and I'll probably never know what it is. With regard to the unconditional love thing. This wasn't and never has been his terminology. It's my wording of what I understand what the problem was. (OT, I personally think the love between a parent and child seems almost entirely conditional, but that's me.) I was the one who brought it up because he gets upset when I get upset. Last night I got upset. It was important for me to tell him, you're not making me upset. I'm upset. There's a difference. I took a chance and told him what I'd been thinking about how I'd been showing him love and how I realized it seemed to him. He didn't argue or augment when I finished. He thanked me. Quietly. Breathily. That was a bullseye. He also said despite all of that he thought my behavior wasn't awful at all but wished I hadn't been so scared for him to know how I felt about him sooner. I said I should have just told you instead of trying to show you. He said yeah. Bullseye 2. Getting the stuff out was okay to do even if it wasn't playing the game but I spent a very long, very distressed night last night anyway. He pushed the friendship thing, I mentioned earlier in the thread. I said that was confusing for me since he'd made a point of not remaining friends with any other girl he's dated. He said that was true and he didn't know what else to say to that. I asked what he got out of it. He had no answer. Duhh. He gets me out of it. He was getting pissed and really controlled it well. Took a few breaths. He did define what he thought friendship was instead. Which is what I figured. Everything we already are except for the physical components and sleeping (as in catching some zzzzs) together. Otherwise I don't know what he thinks. I know he's being very stubborn and precise with regard to his words and my understanding of them. For instance. He got very upset when I asked had he not been attracted to me any more. "No. That's not it. I'm incredibly attracted to you. It's what I already told you. It's not you. It's me." He said (and I thought this was somewhat off, almost controlling?) So we're going to be friends? Or do you want to postpone being friends? (Notice how he gave no option for not being friends ever? That really stuck with me. It's not the first time he's phrased it that way.) I said I didn't know. He said he wanted to know so he would know if he could talk to me again or if he had to stay away until I had an answer. I said I thought it would be okay for him to talk to me. He's tested that out a little this morning making small talk and smiling. Carrot Link to post Share on other sites
Author carrotgirl Posted October 15, 2007 Author Share Posted October 15, 2007 So ultimately he felt that the relationship that you were having was all about you, and lost trust in you? Yeah. I think you said it better than I did. And thanks for the acknowledgment Spind. It wasn't a happy thing for me to realize this. I have a LOT of work to do on me going forward. Link to post Share on other sites
Spinderella Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 Okay, its good that you understand yourself a bit better, and are making changes. It does not leave him without his faults too though. Its almost as though he thinks you owe him this friendship - would you say thats true? Feeling guilty, or responsible, makes you easy for manipulation. Not intentional manipulation, but manipulation none the less. He needs to work out in himself whether he trusts you for another chance, he cannot keep you around to ensure you dont run off while he decides. And you cant prove it to him. I sympathise with his position, but, in reality, he wont find out anything much about his feelings while you are having a friendship. Link to post Share on other sites
Author carrotgirl Posted October 15, 2007 Author Share Posted October 15, 2007 Okay, its good that you understand yourself a bit better, and are making changes. It does not leave him without his faults too though. Its almost as though he thinks you owe him this friendship - would you say thats true? Feeling guilty, or responsible, makes you easy for manipulation. Not intentional manipulation, but manipulation none the less. He needs to work out in himself whether he trusts you for another chance, he cannot keep you around to ensure you dont run off while he decides. And you cant prove it to him. I sympathise with his position, but, in reality, he wont find out anything much about his feelings while you are having a friendship. If you flip the friendship statement around, I think it's got legs. Its almost as though he thinks HE owes me this friendship. Or almost as though he's offering to prove something to himself. And he's bound and determined to do that. And yes, it smells of manipulation to me too. Agreed, probably completely unintentional still manipulation. My question is to what end? It's not to maintain a good working relationship that much I know. He seems to really want to BE friends. Your spin on him keeping me around while he figures himself out (or while I figure myself out, or both) is flattering to me. Logically when someone doesn't want to let go I know that means he wants to hold on... And that may just be where my perceived disconnect is. He will still say everything about me was what he wanted but (I'm tired of writing that awful phrase) and he doesn't know why. And yes. Forgive me for being crass but It's still confusing to me that he wants this friendship and still is very attracted (which I knew) and very comfortable with me, but doesn't want the physical. Not saying I'm looking for a FWB situation. I'm surprised a young, attractive man would want to spend his very limited free time with a woman he sees no future with and isn't having sex with and is not seeing another woman or having sex with anyone else. Why would he want to be with me, the woman he insists he doesn't want, instead of pursuing something with someone else or at pursuing something where he'll get some sex? And Sao, I'm in a bind. I absolutely want more than friendship. I don't want to lose this guy from my life either. Had we never become a couple, I would always have wanted to have him for a friend. Of course I could say yes to friends and then just not be around. To me that's a lie of omission. I feel like I'm in a bind. I prefer not to choose and let whatever will be happen naturally without labeling it. Is that unreasonable? Carrot Link to post Share on other sites
sao2 Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 It is really up to you. If you want to continue this facade of a friendship, which is what it is while you want more, then by all means continue to torture yourself with it. It is really ultimately your call what you will do in this situation. It is unhealthy for you to wait for him to figure things out. As long as you remain in this situation where you want more and he is "just out of reach" it will only bind you to him more in your mind. As long as that continues your feelings of inadequacy will grow and you won't heal this way. I guess what I am suggesting is that you let him know that you still want a relationship but that for the time being you are still too confused to be his friend right now. He should be able to accept that you need some time to heal before you go from an intimate relationship to being just friends. If he doesn't accept that then he doesn't deserve your feelings or yout friendship. One day in the future you may be ready for friendship, but right now is it really the best thing for you? If I could give you a pill, that once you took it he would be out of your life forever and you would be ok with that, would you choose the pill over the current situation? Link to post Share on other sites
Author carrotgirl Posted October 15, 2007 Author Share Posted October 15, 2007 If I could give you a pill, that once you took it he would be out of your life forever and you would be ok with that, would you choose the pill over the current situation? I like to think in terms of absolutes to figure these things out as well. No. At this moment in time I wouldn't choose the pill. I reserve the right to change my mind though. And should I tell him he must leave me alone. He will accept my decision. Or at least, he said he would. Can you lend your male insight to the why the hell would he want to spend all of his free time with a non-prospect? Why would a guy do this? Carrot Link to post Share on other sites
sao2 Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 I can't speak for every other male, or even any other male. If it were me and I were trying to move forward I wouldn't want to spend time with you. I have had female friends(that were not prospects) that I did spend alot of time with, but never an ex. I never really thought that it was healthy to spend alot of time with ex's. In fact I have never really developed any sort of relationship with an ex after a breakup. That is just me, I have had friends who have had friendships after a breakup, but in all those cases there was a period of time allowed for both parties to heal. Link to post Share on other sites
Author carrotgirl Posted October 15, 2007 Author Share Posted October 15, 2007 I can't speak for every other male, or even any other male. If it were me and I were trying to move forward I wouldn't want to spend time with you. Yah. I've been friendly, like if we broke up and passed each other on the street we'd wave or possibly make small talk but I've never remained active friends. I haven't usually had interest. This time I do but I'm of two thoughts. The first, I'd be lying if I said I didn't want more bonding time. The other, I genuinely would like to be friends with this person regardless. Time would be good. I just don't feel like wrapping a lot of rules around it. Carrot Link to post Share on other sites
sao2 Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 There doesn't have to be rules to it, just say you aren't ready and you're not sure when you will be . . . enough said. Link to post Share on other sites
Spinderella Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 There doesn't have to be rules to it, just say you aren't ready and you're not sure when you will be . . . enough said. ....................................................yep Link to post Share on other sites
Author carrotgirl Posted October 15, 2007 Author Share Posted October 15, 2007 I already said that to him so I don't feel a need to repeat myself. Link to post Share on other sites
Author carrotgirl Posted October 15, 2007 Author Share Posted October 15, 2007 This would be a LOT easier if I didn't see the guy every day at the office. I know I'm whining but it's really a drag. Link to post Share on other sites
sao2 Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 I hear ya Carrot. I had a workplace situation a few years ago and I actually requested to move offices, not far, but our cubicles had been right next to each other(that's how we met), afterwards we were able to avoid each other. Link to post Share on other sites
Author carrotgirl Posted October 15, 2007 Author Share Posted October 15, 2007 I have food in me and I'm quiet. It's nice to have the heavy emotions at bay. my head took over today and I decided that whatever I decide to do about the ex's offer of friendship, I believe "being just friends" after a breakup has a hidden agenda for each of us, not just me. For whatever reason, whether it's a test of loyalty or love or both, or perhaps to fulfill some lonely yearnings. Maybe he hopes. Whatever the case, his asking for "being just friends" after having been more is asking me to agree to being together without being together. He's asking me to agree to seeing what happens. Maybe this is a way for him to manage his feelings by trying to break down our relationship into, companionship, work, play, sex, love.... and denying the excitement and passion of the physical relationship by "being just friends". Maybe he doesn't miss me now, but even if we see each other every day, eventually he'll miss that wholeness. And eventually, maybe I won't. Earlier today the ex and I were wrapping things up in the projection room. I thought I'd turned the projector off but I'd only turned the light off. The ex said to me, last week I couldn't figure out how to turn the projector off so eventually I just unplugged it. And then he showed me the right way to turn it off. I'm not sure I could have come up with a better metaphor for how he unplugged us. I knew in that instant, this was what I had to work with. The ex hadn't had the time or wasn't willing to take the time or he didn't have the patience, or wouldn't ask for help with how to make the machine work so he just unplugged it. But he obviously figured it out or asked later because he could show me how today. Carrot is the carrot. He'll want me or not. But whatever he wants, he can't any part of me if I'm not willing. Some game. He gave me all of the power back in a way. It's like he said, I broke up with you but please don't leave me. I may be the one crying and emotional but I am questioning and learning. And that's almost worth having a filthy home and not being able to eat. I'm not sure I want to play this game. I might just decide to play another game. With somebody else! Link to post Share on other sites
AriaIncognito Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 Can you lend your male insight to the why the hell would he want to spend all of his free time with a non-prospect? Why would a guy do this? Carrot I'm going to lend my "been in this position before" insight. They do this because they can't be alone. He'll be your friend until he finds his next gf then he'll drop you like a hot potato. That's why they stay. It's certainly not for any benefit of yours, or out of a need for a friendship with you in specific. I'm sorry to be so blunt but, I've been that girl. Recently. A few months ago. And well, I'm totally alone now, man wise. So I'm speaking from experience. Link to post Share on other sites
Author carrotgirl Posted October 16, 2007 Author Share Posted October 16, 2007 I hear what you're saying Aria. Does it matter in your opinion if the ex is purposely sequestering himself away from friends and family? It seems like he's making a very specific effort to be alone all of the time with the exception of one person. Carrot Link to post Share on other sites
Spinderella Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 Could be any reason Carrot. Does it make a difference? Link to post Share on other sites
Author carrotgirl Posted October 16, 2007 Author Share Posted October 16, 2007 It might make a difference. This is all new territory for me so I'm gathering whatever I can. If learning about someone else's experience doesn't help me in making a difference in outcome, there still might be a difference in my perception. Two calm days in a row. It is a lot better than being a crying mess. Link to post Share on other sites
Spinderella Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 I meant, does it make a difference to your friendship or nc decision? Link to post Share on other sites
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