Why does God let bad things happen to innocent people?

[Lovelybird]

Sorry lovely, and yes you are:love:, I didn't notice the change in name because I was blinded by your beauty.

 

And to you your faith is not blind and I understand your point. There is nothing that I can say to deny your subjective proof other than my disbelief (which isn't much as far as your concerned). It is my opinion, and admittedly my assumption, that you are attributing very mundane events or personal realizations to a higher power.

Example:

If you pray for the answer to a tough question, and then you come up with the answer. What proof do you have that it was a miracle other than an assumption based on a preconceived notion? You probably would have come up with that answer whether you prayed or not. And how could you possibly know one way or the other? I personally believe that everything good that you have ever done, was done because you are a good person. You are the source of all you good deeds. Likewise, if you do bad things, I wouldn't blame the devil, I would blame you. Personal respondsibility.

Thanks

 

Yes, I agree with personal responsibilities. It is supernatural power, when people put faith in God to heal them, some are very obvious, some lame can walk again, some dead disease that doctor claimed uncurable but God healed them. Do you watch Church Channel?

[shadowofman]

I don't watch the church Channels, but I do read about all of these miraculous claims. Scientifically, there is evidence for the power of belief in the ability to regenerate the body and deal with illness.

 

This is how the placibo works. If the patient believes they are receiving what they need in order to get better, then they will trick there bodies into naturally responding to the situation.

Likewise, if you are severly depressed, stressed, or otherwise hopeless, then your body will begin to shut down, and could possible be the cause of illness to begin with, by way of weakening the immune system.

 

Other than that, doctors can make mistake and do all the time, especially in judging how loing a person has to live. Cancers go into remission all the time.

 

A positive attitude can go a long way and there is nothing super-miraculous about it (Though it is quite amazing to think about).

Edited December 25, 2007 by shadowofman
fix

[Moose]

Next your going to tell us that, "The secret" is the way to go eh?

 

"Law of attraction"?

[DutchGuy]

I changed to Lovelybird

 

by the way my faith isn't blind faith, I have TONS of proves

 

Faith is believing in something that has no proof.

If there was proof, it wouldn't be called faith.

 

By the way, why would starving babies have to suffer only for a god to find out if people are good? Not fair to the babies is it?

[disgracian]

Because "The Secret" is just so much more implausible than a belief that angels are constantly orbiting your body, fighting off demons?

 

Cheers,

D.

[Moose]

Because "The Secret" is just so much more implausible than a belief that angels are constantly orbiting your body, fighting off demons?

 

Cheers,

D.

Cheers back at ya.....

 

Let me tell you something...

 

Scripture tells me about people JUST like you.

 

And what people, (just like you) are up to.

 

You will have some what of a, "success" in doing so, but you will not win the war.

 

Remember that

[disgracian]

Why don't you enlist one of your celestial bodyguards to fight me off then? Or do I have to come within a certain proximity before it draws its flaming sword?

 

Cheers,

D.

[Moose]

Why don't you enlist one of your celestial bodyguards to fight me off then?

They already are.

Or do I have to come within a certain proximity before it draws its flaming sword?

No swords needed.....

[disgracian]

They don't seem to be having much of an effect.

 

Cheers,

D.

[shadowofman]

The "Secret" is just repackaged LaVeyan Satanism.

 

Seriously, it's the same ideas that he came up with in the 60's.

[disgracian]

They don't seem to be having much of an effect.

I humbly take that back, although crashing the LS server hard drive seems to be a bit of overkill if you ask me.

 

Cheers,

D.

[Geishawhelk]

I humbly take that back, although crashing the LS server hard drive seems to be a bit of overkill if you ask me.

 

Cheers,

D.

"God moves in mysterious ways His wonders to perform..." Maybe he thought crashin' the hard drive was the new hip techno-acceptable way of rappin' yer knuckles.... I mean, a blazing chariot drawn by 8 white horses with him throwing lightning bolts would have attracted some funny looks....not to mention a possible parking ticket - I meantersay.....

 

New Year's eve, and the traffic wardens were on the rampage! Sheeesh! Give a reveller an even break!

[Moose]

I humbly take that back, although crashing the LS server hard drive seems to be a bit of overkill if you ask me.

 

Cheers,

D.

Sometimes some people need overkill to get the message......

 

Hope your New Year is a great one d.

[disgracian]

Can I take that to mean that you are taking responsibility for the crash? Should I alert the admin or do you prefer to turn yourself in?

 

Happy new year to you also, M.

 

Cheers,

D.

[Moose]

I will neither confirm, or deny any involvement with the, "crash"......

 

Pretty ironic when it happened......it allowed me to reflect more on the subject.

 

I can say that everything terrible that's happened in the past, present or future happens for a reason. What that reason is becomes what we want to make it.

 

I prefer to make it, (in my mind), for good because that is what God told me. We can debate this for years if you'd like, but it won't do any of us any charity to do so.

[shadowofman]

Just curious Moose, so you attribute everything to god's will? Does that mean you are not the type of Christian to blame the devil for bad things. What is your faith's position on freewill and whether or not God knows all before it occurs?

[Lovelybird]

Bad things happens because human's bad choices and sinful nature; sometimes it's own bad choices; sometimes it is completely others bad choices

 

If a person don't keep own heart pure and a clear conscience, he/she may have bad choices, and easily be influenced by devil

[TotalChaos]

My thoughts on this matter are as such:

 

God wasn't the one who abused these individuals as children. A man did it. We all have choices to make in life and some people choose to take the wrong path and make bad choices.

 

Anyone who treats children this way is very sick. They rob their innocense and scar them emotionally, sometimes physically as well.

 

I believe that most of the time this behavior is learned from previous generations or stems from other unfortunate events in life. This does not make it right by any means. There comes a time when the cycle has to be broken and one decides enough is enough.

 

We were all made to do great things. The things in life that don't kill us are to make us stronger. We cannot control what others do to us, but we can control what we do ourselves and with our lives. For every negative there is a positive. To take from past negative experiences and use them to educate and help others is a gift.

 

I was also abused as a child. Although it was hard and took alot away from my childhood I would not change it. I am a very strong person, because of it and I have broken the cycle of abuse in my family.

 

As for my abuser...well he will have to live for the rest of his life knowing what he's done. He will also have to answer for it later. I, on the other hand will move forward and continue to make a positive change.

[shadowofman]

So do you believe that God allowed these thing to happen to you in order to make you stronger?

 

I also happen to believe that bad things are done by people, and that people need to be held respondsible for them. Not because devils influenced them, or because god's allowed it to happen, but because people make bad choices.

 

I also believe that if there was a benevolent god, he would take the free will away from anyone who intended harm on another person. If this god is not willing to do this he is malevolent. If unable, he is impotent. If he is unaware, then he is inept.

 

If it is all part of his plan, an end justify the means kind of guy, then he is not worthy of worship and in the inspiration of revolution.

[Lovelybird]

If God take free will away from us, we all become robot; we don't have to choose to eat apple or strawberry we like, that we end up have to drink machine oil

 

A person never experienced suffer, he cannot be compassionate about others; without experience of sad, how can you know what is happy?

 

we have free will to love or hate; you don't want to force one to love you, if you can force them to love you, then it loses its meaning, like robot, you can force a robot to love you and do whatever you want it to, but do you feel good about that? but through choice if one choose to love you, that is different. I guess that is what God intented.

 

God can make good out of bad situations

[D-Lish]

Just curious Moose, so you attribute everything to god's will? Does that mean you are not the type of Christian to blame the devil for bad things. What is your faith's position on freewill and whether or not God knows all before it occurs?

 

Well isn't god omnipotent- or "all knowing" as it translates?

So apparantly that knowledge must include intimate knowledge of eternity. Hmmmm....

 

I wonder if he plans on allowing me a good hair day tomorrow- or perhaps he'll make it rain for the next 40 days and 40 nights so I get frizzy... afterall, I am sure my sarcasm could bring about some good ole' fashion wrath....right? Sorry if some of you live close to me and my post brings the rain upon the innocents. Casualties I suppose... Bring an umbrella to work tomorrow.

 

As a Religious Studies major and someone who NEVER bought into religion, I used to enjoy debates like these.... but proving the existence or lack there of, of something that isn't tangible... well, it's just a battle I've grown tired of.

 

Give me a mathematical equation that proves the existence of god, back it up with some archeological evidence.... and then I'll want to debate again. Until then I'm just going to go own living my life being the best person I can be because I WANT TO BE... not because I am afraid I'm going to burn in an eternal hellfire. I actually think my way might be a little more honorable.... doing good for the sake of doing good....hmm...

 

And does it mean that if I live my life as a pretty good person, do my best to help others and have compassion for the less fortunate.... that I am destined to burn in hell becuase I don't believe in god?

Or, hey- I have a better idea- I can be the worst human being on the face of the planet, slay the innocent, oppress the less fortunate, commit lots of adultry.... but on my deathbed I can just accept jesus into my heart and be saved!! Hey- it worked for Constantine... it's in the bible- it has to be true!!

 

Come on- life is a serious of random events- some of which we can manage and control- and some that we cannot.

 

I remember a Phd. student in my program who was a practicing Christian, trying to explain genocide using the "everything happens for a reason; and god works in myterious ways" theory. So.... hacking people apart and wiping out an entire race is pretty much okay if god is working in his mysterious way.

 

I need the math equation- anyone have that figured out yet?

[shadowofman]

I agree D-Lish, except I'm not tired of it yet.

 

If God take free will away from us, we all become robot; we don't have to choose to eat apple or strawberry we like, that we end up have to drink machine oil

 

I agree.

 

A person never experienced suffer, he cannot be compassionate about others; without experience of sad, how can you know what is happy?

 

Again, I agree. But what about the bad things that happen to people that are out of any humans control? What about deadly diseases? These are the creations of your god. Does he afford freewill to the flu virus just as he affords it to humans? even if there was undeniable proof of god's existance, why in the world would anyone worship him except out of fear? Anyone that claims his benevolence is delusional.

[D-Lish]

I agree D-Lish, except I'm not tired of it yet.

 

perhaps I am getting a second scholarly wind afterall. maybe you have opened a can of worms...

 

But what about the bad things that happen to people that are out of any humans control? What about deadly diseases? These are the creations of your god. Does he afford freewill to the flu virus just as he affords it to humans? even if there was undeniable proof of god's existance, why in the world would anyone worship him except out of fear? Anyone that claims his benevolence is delusional.

 

Anyone that has read the Bible from cover to cover (and I have...well, I had to as a part of my degree) will read some pretty disturbing and odd stuff. Hey, don't get me wrong- there are some interesting stories and amusing moments, and some valuable lessons. But, the omnipotent god also manifests the behavior of an angry vengeful god. Hmm.... the Pantheons of gods in history always explemplify human traits... the monotheistic god of the Bible is also illustrated as owning human traits..which of course include benevolence, anger, wrath, revenge and even cruelty. "HUH"? you want me to test my faith in you by killing my only son..... oh wait- it's just a joke... you were only testing me? Phew...

 

Attestments to these charachter traits are easily found and quoted over and over again if anyone wants to me to quote examples. The one above is a good example- points if you know the father and son I am talking about...lol

 

Why is it that the gods throughout history all of exemplify human traits? Simple...Because the human mind creates them.... Scientologists have been a bit more creative with their Tuetons....I must give credit where credit is due.

 

Something to consider about the Bible is the notion of Canon. Canon is sort of like censorship. Men of important positions in the church throughout history have built the Bible by deciding what content should be included...and what should be eliminated and disguarded. But you see, the basic tenents of christianity teach you to believe that the Bible was "Divinley inspired"... or more or less written by the hand of god. Not sure how a censorship committee fits into this equation? Maybe he contracted them out to do some work on his behalf.

 

This is why there is a distinction made between scripture and history.

 

The convoluted content in the Bible has been through more translations than a history book ... And you truly can pick and choose what passages and stories to follow and use to your advantage. He**, you could ask me to write an essay on pretty much anything using only the content in the Bible as a reference... and I can write you an A paper. Don't ask me though- I am way beyond my essay writing days.

 

Perhaps the flu, Aids, Stds, cancer, etc are tantamount to the locusts and bloody river.... and other 5 signs that wrath is about to come upon us. But realistically- it's just what happens in nature when the earth is overpopulated. Is something out there pointing randomly at people giving them cancer- infecting babies with HIV, striking one down with leprosy? (don't laugh it's on the comeback). Do people really think this is the case?

 

What's wrong with just believing in yourself and being the best person you can be just because....(id-ego-superego), but I digress.

 

Is it really that bad to NOT feel a need to explain everything?

Can't we accept that the things that happen to us just suck... plain and simple? Things don't always happen for a reason- we live in a random universe. Why isn't knowing that enough?

[shadowofman]

Well said D-Lish! And that is my position exactly. On every single point.

 

To bring it back to the original topic, there is nothing wrong with a person counting up all the evidence and hedging a bet, and then attempting to enlighten others by describing your position and what evidence influenced your bet.

 

Specifically, my position is, like D-Lish said, "Why isn't NOT knowing enough?" My only argument is with people that claim to know the origins and "meaning" behind the universe. While I am not trying to "covert", so to speak, I am attempting to deconvert, or cause some people to question and research what is known. What they speculate is beyond my control or my business.

 

Like Marx said, "Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and the protest against it." It's denial of the obvious truth that you don't know the reasons behind events. When a loved one dies, people tend to wish upon wish and hope upon hope that what they know is not truth. So they change what is truth about the situation in order to protest it.

 

"To abolish religion as the illusory happiness of the people is to demand their real happiness. The demand to give up illusions about the existing state of affairs is the demand to give up a state of affairs which needs illusions. The criticism of religion is therefore in embryo the criticism of the vale of tears, the halo of which is religion." It's a condition which exploits the fears and at the same time dulls critical thinking, for the purpose of teaching obedience to authority as a condition for achieving future happiness through salvation.

 

What is better than thinking you will live forever? If it sounds too good to be true, it usually is.

[D-Lish]

"All I've ever claimed to know is that I don't know everything"

Socrates via Plato

 

or something like that... I've been out of school for a while. lol.

 

Human beings are naturally curious- when we don't find concrete answers... we fill in the blanks as best we can. How do you think religions developed in the first place? I am afraid to die (heaven,Valhalla, moeksha)

(oh the above are - christian, viking, hindu) in case you are wondering.

 

We create answers.... and we do it because curiousity is inherent. If science can't fill it... something else has to right?

 

Accept the voids- accept the things that are unanswered.... nothing is wrong with that.