Lack of intimacy

[White Flower]

OW has moments when she's not dealing too well with it. I always tell her that I won't do anything about it - if she can't take it anymore then she should leave me - even if I don't want her to go.

 

Ouch! What would you do without her? And is there any other reason you are staying in the M besides kids? Is there a concern as to how your network of family and friends would perceive you if you left?

[Scrivdog]

 

Ouch! What would you do without her? And is there any other reason you are staying in the M besides kids? Is there a concern as to how your network of family and friends would perceive you if you left?

 

My truly good friends already know. The others won't bother me if they want to think poorly of me.

 

I'm staying mostly because of the kids. If there were no kids - I'd be gone already.

[Ladyjane14]

LadyJane,

 

Yeah yeah - but you're just imposing your own morality on someone else. He may not be wonderful to you - but infidelity is rampant enough that to hold your generalization - you'll also have to write off 70% of men as scumbags.

 

Unlike many of you here - I don't think that all people who go outside the marriage are bad people. Some are, no doubt. Some guys will, I grant you, sleep with any woman anytime regardless of how great their marriage is. But I've seen too many cases of good guys finding themselves forced into situations where they face sexlessness for the forseeable future.

 

So, by your math, if a thousand lemmings jump off the cliff before you, it's not REALLY a cliff?

 

Look, you can call it "imposing morality" if you want. I don't apologize for my views against infidelity, so it's not hurting my feelings if you accuse me of being "moral". IMO, infidelity destroys lives. Sometimes, quite literally and other times in more nefarious ways.

 

Does it make you a bad person if you cheat on your wife? I dunno.

Hypothetically speaking, if you screw around and give your unsuspecting spouse AIDS, are you a "bad person" then? You've killed somebody... somebody you were sworn to love and cherish. Are they any less dead in the end than if you'd taken a shotgun to them?

 

Is the alcoholic a "bad person"?... or is he only "bad" when he's mowed someone down while DWI?

 

Cheating is careless, reckless, selfish, and there's just NO EXCUSE for it, IMO, because.... when the worst thing happens... the worst thing is pretty damn bad.

Let's face it, nobody ever got a social disease from a divorce decree. These are all choices.

 

In the end, we make our own monsters.

 

I worry that this place is all too willing to help the guy come down even harder on himself than he already has. He already thinks he's failing as his ego is taking a monumental hit.

 

So far, the responses have been urgings that he find even more things to try as if he hasn't already tried hard enough and some veiled accusations that he's maybe a bad lover and/or practices bad hygene.

 

If the wife decides she wants to acknowledge the problem and work with him to see what can be done - then I'll be the first to say this is the route that needs to be taken. But just here on this board we can see already how many guys have tried just about everything to turn things around to no avail. I sense the OP is already there.

 

I don't think anybody's blaming the OP. It seems to me like he's got a pretty good handle on things, and he's just looking for some pointers. I also think that you're a good example to him of 'what not to do' and why looking outside the marriage won't solve any of the problems within it. Because you've apparently fallen into a trap of your own making...

 

I'm not advocating that he find a mistress as a first option - but I do think that a point must be reached where a married guy needs to admit that nothing is going to change. At that point he has few choices - none of them all that good.

 

I don't see infidelity as a great option. Probably few MM do. I happen to see infidelity as a lesser evil than divorce - I guess because I value staying in the same house as my children more than the vanity of avoiding other people's caricaturizations of myself as a monster and the OW as some cheap tart. Divorce would be much easier in that it would make my relationship with my OW far less complicated and more pleasant - believe me.

 

If memory serves, you were just gonna be in it for the sex, weren't you?... just having a need met? And now look at you. I threw out the word "tart" and you bit down like a big mouth bass.

 

Hmmm... seems a bit defensive if you ask me, like a man who's become emotionally entangled and maybe in over his head just a little bit. This is starting to sound like a common, garden-variety affair, complete with all the rationalizations, justifications, and lies.

 

When I look in the mirror, I see a guy who has had to make tough choices while facing great resistance from people in general. I see a man who has had to make an unpopular choice - but one that meets his needs while not abandoning those close to him because they no longer serve his needs.

 

You know, if I were doing what you're doing... I couldn't face that mirror at all. Because I don't much care what other people think of me. I care what I think. I've never done a bad turn to anyone, where my conscience didn't make demands on me.

 

It doesn't matter what I think. It doesn't matter whatever caricature society paints of you and others like you. It matters what YOU think. And yet, here you are... apparently defensive.

 

There was a little book out a few years ago called, All I Really Need to Know I Learned in Kindergarten. It was just one of those little books that clerks put on the cash-wrap for impulse buyers. But among other thoughts, and right there in the title, it reminds us that that we learn all the important stuff when we're five. We learn not to steal, not to cheat, not to lie, to share our toys, wash our hands, etc.

 

Funny how it's not until we're all grown up that we can justify our way around those very basic early lessons.

 

My wife lives well - and I'll always take care of her as do my children. She can at least count on that. I have not and will not leave her for the OW until the kids are grown. I'd rather see that in the mirror than some chump who's left his testicles in a jar or a guy who has abandoned his wife and kids.

 

Some of you evidently believe that leaving the house and being a weekend dad is somehow more honorable. You're entitled to your views - and I won't even accuse you of "purportedly" loving your kids.

 

I kind of doubt your wife and kids are going to thank you when it's all said and done.

Do you really believe she's going to appreciate the fact that you oh-so-nobly failed to abandon her all through her youth... and then turned her out to pasture in her middle age? Do you think your kids are going to still believe you're such a great dad when their mother is crying in pain and bitterness for all the years wasted, years that could've been spent in the arms of a man who might have actually loved her?

 

THAT's the face in the mirror you'll be seeing. The face of the guy who created an old, embittered crone from the raw materials of a fresh-faced young girl... and then left his adult children to clean up his mess.

 

You know, from here it looks like you're playing a game of spite and malice... taking your testicles out of the jar. But if it's all passive/aggressive, done behind her back... how's she supposed to know what a big man you are?

[mike_m76au]

Looks like I opened up a can of worms on this forum! Sorry to ruffle any feathers out there... I hope everyone can still get along.

 

To answer a few questions though...

 

Yes I have tried to speak to my wife about it. She just shuts the door by explaining her reason for rejection in further detail. It doesn't get anywhere and can often end up in an argument or fight.

 

I just wanted to point something out to those people who said that it maybe due to having children. My wife was previously married and had a child in that relationship. Her marriage ended when her child turned one and I have been in her life since. The biological father gave my daughter up for adoption after my wife and I were married and I was more than happy to accept. So when we first got involved, my wife already had a child.

 

No, I won't step outside the marriage regardless of how I feel. I do not believe in divorce as I won't subject my children to that sort of pain. Besides I still really love my wife.

 

Thank you everyone for your advice I greatly appreciate it. I'm still not sure as to what I'm going to do about it. After this weekend I've pretty much come to the conclusion that this is my life and I might as well accept it. I'm not going to force my wife to do something she isn't interested in. I suppose it is how it is.

[Scrivdog]

So, by your math, if a thousand lemmings jump off the cliff before you, it's not REALLY a cliff?

Actually what I would say is that if thousands of lemmings have been jumping off a cliff - then there is something about lemmings and the environment they're in that's causing them to want to do this - not that they're necessarily evil and stupid.

 

Look, you can call it "imposing morality" if you want. I don't apologize for my views against infidelity, so it's not hurting my feelings if you accuse me of being "moral".

I didn't accuse you of anything. Those are your words you're putting in my mouth. I think I made it quite clear that you;re entitled to your beliefs. I just wanted to point out that you paint someone who is unfaithful with a very wide brush dipped in the paint of your own predjudices - which, from what I read, includes that he/she is immoral, unworthy of love, and probably doesn't love his/her kids.

 

Does it make you a bad person if you cheat on your wife? I dunno.

Hypothetically speaking, if you screw around and give your unsuspecting spouse AIDS, are you a "bad person" then? You've killed somebody...

Ok - so then you're OK with an emotional affair and some heavy petting maybe? It's the actual potential for AIDS that scares you? One could argue that I'm probably putting my spouse at greater risk of her catching hep-c by me eating oysters than my giving her AIDS. I can come up with many things we all do that endanger our spouses by the mere fact that many activities carry a high risk. I know my OW - I know myself and I have good reason to believe that the risk of my W getting an STD is virtually nil.

 

I don't think anybody's pointing fingers at the OP. It seems to me like he's got a pretty good handle on things, and he's just looking for some pointers.

It's been suggested in this very thread that he's maybe dirty, a lousy lover, and maybe innatentive. And he already has indicated that the temptation he has to be unfaithful is alarming to him. He's in the danger zone.

 

And now look at you. I threw out the word "tart" and you bit down like a big mouth bass.

I didn't realize you were baiting, then. Sorry - I took you seriously.

 

Hmmm... seems a bit defensive if you ask me, like a man who's become emotionally entangled and maybe in over his head just a little bit. This is starting to sound like a common, garden-variety affair, complete with all the rationalizations, justifications, and lies.

Maybe. But I didn't feel defensive nor do I now. I do feel defensive of the OP. I get a little annoyed when others minimize the impact of what this guy is going through by suggesting he can fix it all by sending his wife to the spa.

 

You know, if I were doing what you're doing... I couldn't face that mirror at all. Because I don't much care what other people think of me. I care what I think. I've never done a bad turn to anyone, where my conscience didn't make demands on me.

I'm happy for you that you've had that luxury. I hope you never have to in the future.

 

It doesn't matter what I think. It doesn't matter whatever caricature society paints of you and others like you. It matters what YOU think. And yet, here you are... apparently defensive.

Yeah - I don't know where I took a wrong turn in this thread and gave the impression I'm defensive. I don't even feel under attack.

 

 

There was a little book out a few years ago called, All I Really Need to Know I Learned in Kindergarten. It was just one of those little books that clerks put on the cash-wrap for impulse buyers. But among other thoughts, and right there in the title, it reminds us that that we learn all the important stuff when we're five. We learn not to steal, not to cheat, not to lie, to share our toys, wash our hands, etc.

 

Funny how it's not until we're all grown up that we can justify our way around those very basic early lessons.

Life does tend to be a bit more complicated than what is depicted in those cute books on the counter though - wouldn't you say?

 

THAT's the face in the mirror you'll be seeing. The face of the guy who created an old, embittered crone from the raw materials of a fresh-faced young girl... and then left his adult children to clean up his mess.

That's quite dramatic. But this is not about her anymore or even about me. He had kids together and we need to see through raising them. They won't have any mess to clean up and yes - I do believe they're better off with me doing it this way as opposed to abandoning them and leaving them exposed to the whims of some other guys she meets and pray they're not pedophiles.

 

You know, from here it looks like you're playing a game of spite and malice... taking your testicles out of the jar. But if it's all passive/aggressive, done behind her back... how's she supposed to know what a big man you are?

How is this about anybody being a big man? I think you misunderstand completely. This is not about manipulating her nor getting back at her. This is about still having some romantic love in my life before that life is over. I would have continued to have it with her - but she opted out.

[Scrivdog]

Looks like I opened up a can of worms on this forum! Sorry to ruffle any feathers out there... I hope everyone can still get along.

Don't even worry about that. This is our usual - and we're pretty much all still here.

 

Yes I have tried to speak to my wife about it. She just shuts the door by explaining her reason for rejection in further detail. It doesn't get anywhere and can often end up in an argument or fight.

Oh yes - the "talk" as they call it. It does get counter=productive at some point.

 

Thank you everyone for your advice I greatly appreciate it. I'm still not sure as to what I'm going to do about it. After this weekend I've pretty much come to the conclusion that this is my life and I might as well accept it. I'm not going to force my wife to do something she isn't interested in. I suppose it is how it is.

Good luck!

[wizer]

You've tried to talk to her, she isn't having it. She isn't willing to work on the problem. The obvious solution is to have an affair. If she doesn't find out about it, you have the best of both worlds. A family life, plus the sex.

 

If she finds out about it, it will be a wake up call for her, and she will either come around or serve you with divorce papers. Either way you get closure.

[Scrivdog]

Better get a helmet, son.

 

You've tried to talk to her, she isn't having it. She isn't willing to work on the problem. The obvious solution is to have an affair. If she doesn't find out about it, you have the best of both worlds. A family life, plus the sex.

 

If she finds out about it, it will be a wake up call for her, and she will either come around or serve you with divorce papers. Either way you get closure.

[wizer]

Better get a helmet, son.

 

Sometimes the most logical course of action isn't the one that is universally accepted.

[Ladyjane14]

This is about still having some romantic love in my life before that life is over. I would have continued to have it with her - but she opted out.

 

Why is it that YOU should have "romantic love" in your life, but your wife shouldn't?

 

Seriously man, have you ever really hurt somebody before? Changed their life? Ended it? Because you don't KNOW what you're looking at down the pike.

 

 

Look, I like you Scriv. I wouldn't bother pissing with you if I didn't.

I see duality in you. I see a guy who's offered comfort through his posts to other people. I even remember one such last year when you were practically incensed at the treatment received by a betrayed wife at the hands of her cheating husband.

So, how is that self-same cheating husband different from the man you've become?

 

Duality. On the other hand, I see a guy who's deeply wounded, feeling neglected and unloved within his primary relationship, betrayed by the partner he believed was his, and lashing out in a passive/aggressive manner.

 

But you can't hurt the ones you love, even if you believe they somehow deserve it, without feeling the pain yourself. I'm here to tell you that. And I can tell you from experience.

[Ladyjane14]

After this weekend I've pretty much come to the conclusion that this is my life and I might as well accept it. I'm not going to force my wife to do something she isn't interested in. I suppose it is how it is.

 

Don't give up on her, Mike... not if you love her. Emotional intimacy and sexual intimacy go hand in hand.

 

The difference between male and female is MORE than just innies and outties. Neither of you will ever truly experience the other's viewpoint in this lifetime, save that you SHARE what it means with your mate. Help her look through your lens, and you take a peek through hers.

 

Try those books I told you about. Read them together... in bed if you can.

And read some more threads here at LS. If you type into the search tool keywords like"sexless marriage" and "female libido", you'll find tons.

 

This is NOT an insurmountable problem. It just takes understanding, perseverance, and an unswerving refusal to accept the status quo.

[Scrivdog]

Why is it that YOU should have "romantic love" in your life, but your wife shouldn't?

 

Sure she can. I, of all people now, won't stop her.

 

Seriously man, have you ever really hurt somebody before? Changed their life? Ended it? Because you don't KNOW what you're looking at down the pike.

We've all been hurt at some point or another. And I don't think that the divorce people like to suggest will ease anybody's pain.

 

Look, I like you Scriv. I wouldn't bother pissing with you if I didn't.

Aw - honey. I know you do - you didn't have tell me! Just don't start turning soft and putting on any kid gloves, ok?. You are the best and I like you just the way you are

 

I see duality in you. I see a guy who's offered comfort through his posts to other people. I even remember one such last year when you were practically incensed at the treatment received by a betrayed wife at the hands of her cheating husband.

So, how is that self-same cheating husband different from the man you've become?

You seem to have this idea the the world is divided up into cheaters and the betrayed - and that as such I would take sides because I also am a cheater. MM's aren't part of any brotherhood. That lady was hurting and her guy was putting her through hell. So I just figured I'd help her have some tools to get control back.

 

Duality. On the other hand, I see a guy who's deeply wounded, feeling neglected and unloved within his primary relationship, betrayed by the partner he believed was his, and lashing out in a passive/aggressive manner.

You would have been right some years ago, sure. People I think go through the 5 stages when they're in a sexless marriage and feel stuck:

 

Denial: We're just going through a dry spell. We're fine. I'll sit tight.

Anger: WTF!? It's been 4 months and she turned me down again? That b*tch! I'll bang that secretary from the office and see how she likes that!

Bargaining: We'll have the "talk". I'll do the dishes. I'll buy her diamonds. I'll work out. I'll find out her needs and apologize profusely for not having addressed them sooner.

Depression: This sucks. I'll post on LS and see if anybody can help me. I can't believe I have to go through life like this. Tell me it ain't so!

Acceptance: Ok - this is marriage. It is what it is - and I have choices to make now. Divorce, celibacy, or a mistress.

 

I was at the second one a long time ago. But I'm not operating out of anger right now at all. I'm no longer expecting anything from my wife in that regard - and so therefore I have nothing to be angry with her about. I may feel a little sad about what we lost at times - but I also feel lucky I have options.

 

But you can't hurt the ones you love, even if you believe they somehow deserve it, without feeling the pain yourself. I'm here to tell you that. And I can tell you from experience

I promise you - that's not what I'm after at all.

[White Flower]

I'm happy for you that you've had that luxury. I hope you never have to in the future.

 

 

I agree with you here Scriv. People who have the luxury of their own ignorance often don't realize they might react the same as us when adapting to a new and difficult situation. We never thought we would have to either. I was judgemental before, but I no longer am.

 

Life does tend to be a bit more complicated than what is depicted in those cute books on the counter though - wouldn't you say?

 

Absolutemente, si!

 

 

That's quite dramatic. But this is not about her anymore or even about me. He had kids together and we need to see through raising them. They won't have any mess to clean up and yes - I do believe they're better off with me doing it this way as opposed to abandoning them and leaving them exposed to the whims of some other guys she meets and pray they're not pedophiles.

 

I understand both your points here. Raising your own children is best for them. But, her giving up her youthful years is not fair either. It is a hard call.

 

How is this about anybody being a big man? I think you misunderstand completely. This is not about manipulating her nor getting back at her. This is about still having some romantic love in my life before that life is over. I would have continued to have it with her - but she opted out.

 

I understand here as well. Life is short and we have needs. If our spouse cannot fulfill them, how long are we supposed to live without love and fulfillment? It is obviously nobody's first choice, but it makes life more livable.

[Ladyjane14]

Sure she can. I, of all people now, won't stop her.

 

Well, did you tell her that? Does she know that monogamy is no longer a factor in the marriage?

It's unfair if you're indulging in new rules, but she's still stuck with the old ones by virtue of being kept in the dark and not knowing she's got her freedom.

 

We've all been hurt at some point or another. And I don't think that the divorce people like to suggest will ease anybody's pain.

 

I'm not talking about 'getting hurt'. I'm talking about hurting people and then having to live with it. And I'm not suggesting you get a divorce right out of the box. What I'm suggesting is that you make every attempt to repair your marriage. And keeping your wife clueless as to the extent of the marital damage isn't going to accomplish that.

 

Aw - honey. I know you do - you didn't have tell me! Just don't start turning soft and putting on any kid gloves, ok?. You are the best and I like you just the way you are

 

Kid gloves? Hey... if I could dunk your head in a bucket and hold it there until you come up sputtering with the truth on your lips and the fog cleared from your mind.... don't think I wouldn't do it.

 

You seem to have this idea the the world is divided up into cheaters and the betrayed - and that as such I would take sides because I also am a cheater. MM's aren't part of any brotherhood.

 

No, I have this idea that the world is full of people who occasionally step in sh*t. Then it's divided.... into those who are willing to take the time to wipe it off their boots, and those who are content to wallow in it.

 

That lady was hurting and her guy was putting her through hell. So I just figured I'd help her have some tools to get control back.

 

Ack!.. Puh-leeze. Not knight-in-shining-armor-itis too!

You'll turn into a walking cliche at this rate, man.

 

You would have been right some years ago, sure. People I think go through the 5 stages when they're in a sexless marriage and feel stuck:

 

Denial: We're just going through a dry spell. We're fine. I'll sit tight.

Anger: WTF!? It's been 4 months and she turned me down again? That b*tch! I'll bang that secretary from the office and see how she likes that!

Bargaining: We'll have the "talk". I'll do the dishes. I'll buy her diamonds. I'll work out. I'll find out her needs and apologize profusely for not having addressed them sooner.

Depression: This sucks. I'll post on LS and see if anybody can help me. I can't believe I have to go through life like this. Tell me it ain't so!

Acceptance: Ok - this is marriage. It is what it is - and I have choices to make now. Divorce, celibacy, or a mistress.

 

I was at the second one a long time ago. But I'm not operating out of anger right now at all. I'm no longer expecting anything from my wife in that regard - and so therefore I have nothing to be angry with her about. I may feel a little sad about what we lost at times - but I also feel lucky I have options.

 

Sorry, kiddo. It still sounds like denial and rationalizations to me. You're showing all the symptoms of a guy caught up in the common, garden-variety extramarital affair. If this was just about 'getting some' and having your ego fed... you wouldn't be emotionally involved with the OW or falling for the damsel-in-distress routine.

 

Once you've put your affair-goggles on... it colors EVERYTHING.

[DazedandConfused66]

People I think go through the 5 stages when they're in a sexless marriage and feel stuck:

 

Denial: We're just going through a dry spell. We're fine. I'll sit tight.

Anger: WTF!? It's been 4 months and she turned me down again? That b*tch! I'll bang that secretary from the office and see how she likes that!

Bargaining: We'll have the "talk". I'll do the dishes. I'll buy her diamonds. I'll work out. I'll find out her needs and apologize profusely for not having addressed them sooner.

Depression: This sucks. I'll post on LS and see if anybody can help me. I can't believe I have to go through life like this. Tell me it ain't so!

Acceptance: Ok - this is marriage. It is what it is - and I have choices to make now. Divorce, celibacy, or a mistress.

 

I was at the second one a long time ago. But I'm not operating out of anger right now at all. I'm no longer expecting anything from my wife in that regard - and so therefore I have nothing to be angry with her about. I may feel a little sad about what we lost at times - but I also feel lucky I have options.

 

I can't imagine what married life must be like when you are involved with someone who doesn't find you worth the effort to attempt to please you. That's just sad.

[tommyr]

Yes I have tried to speak to my wife about it. She just shuts the door by explaining her reason for rejection in further detail. It doesn't get anywhere and can often end up in an argument or fight.

Maybe some professional help (marriage counselor) could help you guys get through these difficult conversations? This helped me + wife.

After this weekend I've pretty much come to the conclusion that this is my life and I might as well accept it. I'm not going to force my wife to do something she isn't interested in. I suppose it is how it is.

 

Obviously it is your decision. But long term, I tend to think that you will not be able to surpress your (natural) sexual desire. If you are like me, your frustration will leak out in other areas. Those back rubs you keep giving so freely? Sooner or later the thought will occur to you she ignores my physical needs so why should I do this for her? When that happens, so begins a marital death spiral. This is exactly happened to me, and I was very fortunate to pull out of it before impact.

[White Flower]

Scrivdog,

I am very curious as to how you would react if your OW took you up on the offer to leave you? Would you try to get her back? Let her go for good? Replace her with another OW? Perhaps I should start a new thread here; I am new at this.

[Eyerish]

Hi to all,

 

I am new to this forum and this thread touches on an issue that is painfully close to bone for me. I have been with my wife for 18 years (9 married) and I am emotionally drained as my wife has no interest in sex at all. Her idea of an intimate relationship is sex 2 maybe 3 times a year, not even our wedding night was one of these rare times - it was heartbreaking. I had hoped that marriage would be a turning point and that our intimate relationship would improve but after 15 or so years (the first 3 were ok) I have basically given up hope of being happy in our relationship. The problem is not helped by social expections that if I was to leave or have an affair (I have not) because of this problem that I would be labelled the home wrecking sex crazed deviant and few people would understand the situation.

 

We have 2 children (5 years and 18mths) and creating them was for her was that sex was to be minimsed to only 3 days of each month at the most probable time for her to get pregnant. The sex itself was practical rather than loving and it made me feel that I was simply a genetic material delivery device to get her pregnant. I always knew that our kids would be a bigger part of her life than me and I accept that.

 

We currently live in different countries due to work requirements and we see each other about once every 4-5 weeks and I can tell you that absence does not make her desire grow stronger. So it is not that we are not living together as it was no different when we were. We do discuss the issue and it ends with her feeling upset and guilty and me feeling guilty for causing her guilt. I am now reluctant to talk to her about it and I just say that I am fine and happy when she asks how I am feeling even though I am not. We have never had a fight in our entire relationship and we love each other dearly, but I am at my wits end. She has suggested that I visit a prostitute for "relief" but that is not what I want. Call me old fashioned but for me sex without emotional feelings is just no where near as good.

 

This has left me feelings of being the most unattractive ugliest person in the world, if the woman who loves me with all her heart does not desire me then no one will. I have never doubted for a second that she loves me deeply; but it can only carry me so far.

I would never wish these feelings on my worst enemy.

I have never been unfaithful but part of me has started to say "never say never" as want to feel desired again.

 

I don't like to beat my own drum but I have supported my wife 110% in every way possible to make all her dreams come true with regards to career, marriage, and children. I stayed at home after we got married so she could pursue her career overseas and then later given up my own career so she can follow her dream career to another country. I'm not perfect by a long shot but I have supported her and our childern regardless of how I feel.

 

Any advice would be appreciated.

 

Regards,

 

Eyerish.