When Is Infidelity "Permitted" If Ever.....?

[OldEurope]

No, not me.....but a problem that is tearing apart a family member: my older sister....

 

She is, first off, a very conservative, beautiful, highly educated gal who has had a rather tame love life, though with many a suitor, a couple of disappointments, she has been very much in love...all in all a woman who has made mostly wise choices and lives selectively. As far as I know she has been, according to her, monogamous in all her relationships....

 

So, she is now 38 and on the road to engagement with a very serious, well educated man; he is attractive on many levels, very successful, mannered and very considerate of her, attentive. But...as serious as he does talk about marriage with her (they have been seeing each other for three years) they are as yet not engaged owing mostly to his having to overcome--and has almost successfully done so--a prior drinking problem (he was never violent, just a too much of a "social" drinker) that she has asked him to settle once and for all. She has been faithful to him over a turbulent ride.

 

He truly has excellent character despite this unfortunate flaw. His powerful father was a drinker and we fear this might have been a bit "handed down". Anyway, she has borne it all with patience and strength.

 

Now what:

 

The What is that she has, she confides to me, very strong feelings for a man she has known for some years; never really a "boyfriend" but the kind of male-friend friendship some women can maintain and she did so for about five years and then, yes--so she tells the story--it did cross the border some years ago to a physical relationship rather briefly but apparently with lingering feeling on both sides (she was single at the time as he was and is single still. She eventually did have to move quite aways from him out of state. But the friendship, though through writing mostly, was maintained). They remained close friends. She did not see him, however, after she met the new gent she is seeing. To stress: This was all before she met her current boyfriend.

 

This former guy I gather still is very much attracted to her, writes to her on occasion, but respects the boundaries of her new relationship. He is held back, very respectful.

 

However, Sis now tells me---and I wanted to test things here at good old, wise ol LS to get some views on the matter--that out of the blue she is intensely longing to see this other chap, has enormously strong sexual feelings that have really come on like a wave, the intensity of which she credits to perhaps the kind of hormonal surge for sex (??) that many women get in their thirties--the beginning or near end of those years (??) (Or so we are told). She thinks about this other man day and night, is very passionate about him, and very much wants to see him.

 

Although I did not probe too much on this, I do gather that her sex life with her serious, current boyfriend is good but not great. Perhaps not all that good. She told me she is "climbing the walls". !!

 

So my question: Not engaged, not married although in what has been a very committed, exclusive (both sides I come to learn) relationship that has weathered much...Does she have the "right" to see this other fellow? Does she have the right to pursue her passion, her longing for this other man, who himself knows that she is involved with someone else? (She was clear to the other guy in some exchange about this, not wanting to be obscure or unclear to him). Should she follow her heart, her needs and is that all right until her current relationship finds its permanent footing, or is she playing with fire? Although she is still technically "free" she believes her current boyfriend would be devastated if he were to find out about all this.

 

I would love to know anyone's take on such a matter. I for one came through a very complicated relationship that did have a happy end, but on this one, I would love to know what others think as I find myself of various minds on the issue.

 

With deepest gratitude,

 

OE

[whichwayisup]

No excuse for her to go 'try out' the other guy. IF she wants to bang him, then she has to end things with her current partner. Or, tell him what she wants to do, that way HE can go bang someone else as well. It is cruel and selfish of her to open the door with another man, while her present boyfriend is trying to change, stop drinking and get his stuff together before marrying her.

 

She can't have her cake and eat it too - UNLESS they both decide to have an open relationship. But, even that will eventually lead to other problems, and more than likely end whatever they have between them.

[EnigmasMuse]

IMO, wheather she is married or not, engaged or not, she is still in a relationship with this guy. If she truly is "climbing the walls" like she says and not all that happy, it might be best to cut ties, get out of the relationship before pursuing anything else with this other guy.

 

Even if there was NOT another guy, if she is not really happy, she still might would need to get out of it.

[Cobra_X30]

OE,

 

Isnt the answer to this obvious?

 

When is lieng and cheating good? When is it Ok to hurt someone you profess to love? When is it beneficial to destroy a relationship both poeple have worked very hard for?

 

Does she think that this is something she can do and hide? If so isnt she just taking advantage of this other mans feelings for her? Isnt she just going to hurt him also?

 

How does she have these feelings and look in the mirror in the morning?

[Mz. Pixie]

Never.

 

She needs to either break up with her b/f or tell the other guy she's not interested.

[Bobby NoBrains]

It appears to be a sign of the current relationship breaking down as far as she is concerned. It's not hormonal, it's escapist because she is looking for a way out of this relationship. The feelings for the old bf may be purely physical but the gist of it is that she wants out of this current situation. The wanting of someone else is a symptom, imho.

 

Just my two bits ..

 

Bobby

[Kasan]

Although I did not probe too much on this, I do gather that her sex life with her serious, current boyfriend is good but not great. Perhaps not all that good. She told me she is "climbing the walls". !!

 

So my question: Not engaged, not married although in what has been a very committed, exclusive (both sides I come to learn) relationship that has weathered much...Does she have the "right" to see this other fellow? Does she have the right to pursue her passion, her longing for this other man, who himself knows that she is involved with someone else? (She was clear to the other guy in some exchange about this, not wanting to be obscure or unclear to him). Should she follow her heart, her needs and is that all right until her current relationship finds its permanent footing, or is she playing with fire? Although she is still technically "free" she believes her current boyfriend would be devastated if he were to find out about all this. OE

 

Quite an interesting situation--once again someone's needs are not getting met--seems to be a real topic here on LS. Of course the usual response would be no, you are in a committed relationship, seek counseling, tell your SO etc.

 

Is her committed relationship on its way to becoming a marriage? If yes, then I think the answer is quite clear. Her current SO is not for her.

 

She is "technically free" to pursue whomever she wants--she is not married, plain and simple. So she could pursue her hearts desire. To me it is an ethical question--how far do you push the envelope? Every person needs to decide their limits.

 

What is her intention? Will she enter into a relationship with the other man solely for sex?

 

You write "Should she follow her heart, her needs and is that all right until her current relationship finds its permanent footing" are we talking about marriage or resolution of some conflict with her current situation? Is her current relationship on shaky ground and that is why the OM is so attractive to her?

 

What do European think about a situation like this?

[nittygritty]

She needs to end the relationship with her current boyfriend either way.

 

If she were to marry her current boyfriend while having unresolved feelings for another man the chances of the marriage failing would be high, I would think.

 

She obviously has serious doubts about her current relationship. Too serious to ever consider getting married to him at this time.

 

She should not let her fear of being 38 and unmarried be a factor in this. Choosing to marry for fear of being alone is a terrible reason to marry because there is nothing more lonely than being with the wrong partner in a bad marriage.

 

Not getting divorced should be more important to her than getting married. Its a 50/50 shot at best but throw in factors of uncertainty and unresolved feelings for someone else and the odds of success go down.

[underpants]

Europe,

 

Is is possible that now that her long term boyfriend has taken actual steps to change a behaviour that provided turbulence in the relationship, she might also be trying to restore some turbulence? Hence the entertaining another man?

 

Has she attended some meetings as well or alanon, in order to take note of how recovery can affect the partner?

 

There are people who like to 'fix' others. Then when they get better they feel the need to move on. That is a bad pattern to fall into.

 

If she really wants to be commited to her boyfriend then she should be serious about it. If not, then she should be honest with him and herself and let him go. I do hope that does not hinder his recovery process however.

 

Just some thoughts.

[Ladyjane14]

....out of the blue she is intensely longing to see this other chap, has enormously strong sexual feelings that have really come on like a wave, the intensity of which she credits to perhaps the kind of hormonal surge for sex (??) that many women get in their thirties--the beginning or near end of those years (??) (Or so we are told). She thinks about this other man day and night, is very passionate about him, and very much wants to see him.

 

Fixation is sometimes an avoidance mechanism. I'd guess that Sis has cold feet, hasn't quite figured out why, and is looking for a more concrete "problem" to pin it on.

 

Obviously, it's unfair to the boyfriend to keep him in the holding pattern while she gets it on with the ex. And for Sister... it escalates the problem rather than solves it.

[michaelk]

Although she is still technically "free" she believes her current boyfriend would be devastated if he were to find out about all this.

 

It's simple: If the current b/f would be hurt by it, she shouldn't do it. Clearly he wishes their relationship to be exclusive. If she wants to change that, she must discuss it with him. If he's willing to redefine their relationship so that other partners are allowed, then she's in the clear. The same is true if he chooses to walk away. But at least she will have been respectful enough of him to be honest and let him make his own decision.

 

And should he say 'no' (probably the most likely case), then she can make her own decision to remain exclusively with him or leave and have the other man.

[OpenBook]

Should she follow her heart, her needs and is that all right until her current relationship finds its permanent footing, or is she playing with fire? Although she is still technically "free" she believes her current boyfriend would be devastated if he were to find out about all this.

 

I would love to know anyone's take on such a matter.

 

Until a ring is on her finger, she can do whatever she wants. She has made no vows to her BF... nor he to her.

 

Absolutely she should follow her heart. A man in the same situation would not hesitate ... he wouldn't even give it a second thought. What is good for the goose, is good for the gander. And she is also under no obligation to tell him anything about this other guy.

 

She is single, she is unencumbered, she is absolutely free and clear to call her own shots. No question. I believe that she would regret it later if she DIDN'T pursue this sudden interest she has in her "friend." She would certainly always wonder about it.

 

And it's not written anywhere in stone that she's going to sleep with him if she sees him. She may have dinner with him and completely change her mind. She just doesn't know at this point.

[OldEurope]

Thank you everyone for taking the time to reply. The situation is apparently getting worse...I have never had a very close relationship with my sister but this is bringing us quite a bit into each other's inner lives...She is very much in love with the man whom I believe will propose to her in the next few months (this is the buzz, she says, and they have been talking about it very seriously)...But she is worn out by a drinking problem (his) which seems to come and go and has affected their sexual life...This is a tough one..

 

Is her committed relationship on its way to becoming a marriage? If yes, then I think the answer is quite clear. Her current SO is not for her.

 

It is on the way to becoming marriage and she says and has said that the they work as a couple on every level---personality, attraction, intellect, humor, politics...and he is a "catch". The big IF are his apparent mood swings (the not yet-finished drinking problem) and a sexual life which has dwindled to near nothing (she says). She is worried these last two factors might not improve. He says they will, and he does tend to be someone who achieves what he strives for in all areas, or let us say, just about all areas..

 

 

She is "technically free" to pursue whomever she wants--she is not married, plain and simple. So she could pursue her hearts desire. To me it is an ethical question--how far do you push the envelope? Every person needs to decide their limits.

 

Exactly the point...How "far" can she go. She seems very much caught up on "seeing" this other chap, as if to test waters...Which of course means, to my mind, to start up an affair. She thinks she can just keep it at the level of "friendship", I do not...After all, I keep hearing about "passion" etc. So yes, she is playing with fire.

 

What is her intention? Will she enter into a relationship with the other man solely for sex?

 

I think her intention would be to start an affair with this other chap and to see how the current boyfriend situation would improve or not improve in comparison to that.

 

She is not the serial cheater and liar and so on and so forth that one might assume when reading a story like this. To the extent that I know her--again, as I said, we were not joined-at-the-hip siblings, emotionally or otherwise...She says she has been 100% monogamous to the current boyfriend over a three, three and a half year period or perhaps a bit more and at times when they were not really seeing each other because of his drinking ups and downs (yes he has been to counseling--helped a little but not entirely, obviously..he is "better" but not "cured"). She had other possibilities and she turned them down when he asked her to stay at his side, to "wait" (Ha and I know something about "waiting games" and how frustrating that can be but they can also pay off!). I also know that she has not been a real serial dater or promiscuous ever....

 

She says that sort of Bam, out of the blue, her sexual "needs" (what a word) are very strong, I think she is highly frustrated, she is worried about not having that fulfilling side of life when she could and I guess this comes down to the classical question of how important is sex in one's life and in marriage and the rest. The other chap, by the way, as far as I understand, is attractive on other levels as well..also well educated, responsible, etc.

 

So this is not some "boy toy"...However, as one person put it, she might end up hurting this other (and single) guy.

 

Woe is us. This is turning into a real soap opera. The force of nature is one mighty customer!

 

You write "Should she follow her heart, her needs and is that all right until her current relationship finds its permanent footing" are we talking about marriage or resolution of some conflict with her current situation? Is her current relationship on shaky ground and that is why the OM is so attractive to her?

 

Good question....I think she thinks that until current boyfriend is on bended knee with a ring and not just promising the future and cleaning up a problem (though mutual friends of his says he seriously wants to marry her) ..that it is all okay for her to see and meet whom and do what she wants.

 

It is an interesting question of what constitutes "fidelity" and what are the defining borders of relationships: must there be the "piece of paper" and the "permanent seal" to require faithfulness or is that not something that truly springs up naturally...That is, to want to be faithful because one's love and desire for a person whether married to them or not brings that fidelity about on its own?

 

Also to the poster who questioned whether at "38" she thinks she should be married and hence staying with the current boyfriend....I don't think so...She is a tough, strong cookie with no lack of potential suitors and the women in my family tended to marry later...I don't think it is that level of insecurity but then I can't never really know...

 

What do European think about a situation like this?[/QUOTE]

 

Ha ha! Europeans get insecure and unsure of these matters just like anyone else and too get hurt where infidelities or the potential thereof are concerned! But Sis and I are good ol American Midwesterners; I just happen to live abroad in northern Italy (married to a Swiss). Trans Atlantic confusion!

[Bobby NoBrains]

Just because you love someone doesn't mean you might not want "out" from the relationship. Feelings are feelings, but needs are also needs. If her needs are not being met, in spite of her feelings she will end up resenting the boyfriend in her life over time. Already she is looking for something outside of her relationship, even though she is serious about her boyfriend. This tells me she is deeply conflicted on different levels about whether she will be able to "make do" with her current boyfriend.

 

Whether going out of their relationship at this stage constitutes cheating ? I don't know how to reply to that, that would depend on what kind of commitments they have made to each other. But if they are looking at marriage "soon", then anything outside of the relationship with her boyfriend would be cheating, imho.

 

If she starts out a marriage in this manner, there's no telling where it will lead, but her apparent frustrations already surfacing at this stage of their relationship doesn't bode well for them getting married. A sexless marriage would be no marriage at all. And all her instincts are telling her that's where this is going, so her reaction is to hope for a physical affair with someone else to fulfill her needs in that department.

 

If at all she has approached you for counsel in this matter, I would suggest you ask her to take a step back from the current relationship, define what she wants out of it, define what she is willing (or not willing) to settle for, and then decide her future course of action.

 

Just my two bits ..

 

Bobby

[Kasan]

It is on the way to becoming marriage and she says and has said that the they work as a couple on every level---personality, attraction, intellect, humor, politics...and he is a "catch". The big IF are his apparent mood swings (the not yet-finished drinking problem) and a sexual life which has dwindled to near nothing (she says). She is worried these last two factors might not improve. He says they will, and he does tend to be someone who achieves what he strives for in all areas, or let us say, just about all areas..

 

 

It has always been my belief that relationships shouldn't be this hard, especially when the couple is not married. Your sister has some red flags going up--the lack of sex and the drinking issue.

 

I believe that love can conquer all, but boy you read on these boards how these problems eat up a marriage.

 

She is obviously old enough to make her own decisions and I think she is really wrestling with the problems she has now with her SO....otherwise the other man wouldn't look so attractive. Is she getting cold feet?

 

Maybe the best course of action for her would be to take a break from her SO to sort things out.

 

I am not sure that I could have the strength to go into a marriage where there are sexual and drinking issues.

 

You know OE, just how tough marriage can be without any of these problems.

[Mr. Lucky]

It has always been my belief that relationships shouldn't be this hard, especially when the couple is not married. Your sister has some red flags going up--the lack of sex and the drinking issue.

Spot on. When I was in that courting and newlywed phase with my wife, we were so consumed (emotionally and physically) with each other that "climbing the walls" with longing for another person wasn't even a possibility. That your Sis is feeling this way is a clear sign that her current relationship (and any impending marriage to him) is clearly not meant to be. You know, our heart and mind usually give us pretty clear signals - it's when we ignore those signs that we get in trouble...

 

Mr. Lucky