separated in the same house; would wife come around

[jmargel]

I have to disagree with you there Gunny, all that is going to do is empower her more. She laughs in his face everyday. She is USING him. There is NO longer a marriage.

 

He needs to kick her ass OUT. The fiancial settlement won't be nearly as bad as what she is doing to you now. Her telling you about taking the kids 2,000 miles away and promising to not go after spousal support? Bull****! She has lied and disrespected you enough, you cannot trust her.

 

Do not agree to her terms. Get to your lawyer and start the proceedings.

 

There is not much more I can tell you, it's time for you to start with some actions here. You've been talking enough about all of this. This is not about getting back your wife anymore, it's about finding resolution so you can move on with your life.

 

There is no more marriage, it's gone, finished, no more. Quit holding onto something that is not there. She is USING you. That foundation of love, trust, the meaning of your vows are gone. I know it's hard to hear that but it's reality, it has been reality for a long time.

 

It's your life and you do what you want, however you have been dragged through the mud enough and IMO unless you take control of this situation you are going to continue to live in misery.

[redblack66]

I have to disagree with you there Gunny, all that is going to do is empower her more. She laughs in his face everyday. She is USING him. There is NO longer a marriage.

 

He needs to kick her ass OUT. The fiancial settlement won't be nearly as bad as what she is doing to you now. Her telling you about taking the kids 2,000 miles away and promising to not go after spousal support? Bull****! She has lied and disrespected you enough, you cannot trust her.

 

I agree. As bad as financial settlement can be for me, it might be easier. We cannot save any money now; I might be able if I have control over the little money I will be living on. The emotional pain will be over.

 

Do not agree to her terms. Get to your lawyer and start the proceedings.

I do have a lawyer, and she has been good so far. Apparently, I hear from my lawyer that her lawyer is a reasonable person to work it.

 

There is not much more I can tell you, it's time for you to start with some actions here. You've been talking enough about all of this. This is not about getting back your wife anymore, it's about finding resolution so you can move on with your life.

 

There is no more marriage, it's gone, finished, no more. Quit holding onto something that is not there. She is USING you. That foundation of love, trust, the meaning of your vows are gone. I know it's hard to hear that but it's reality, it has been reality for a long time.

Yes, it is the reality. The vows are gone. She says I have broken the vows by not being a good husband, nonsense.

 

It's your life and you do what you want, however you have been dragged through the mud enough and IMO unless you take control of this situation you are going to continue to live in misery.

Agree. If I do not take full control, I will be in misery. It has been 4 months pure misery, up to the point that I am really worried about my health and missing work opportunities.

 

At the end of the day, I want to go home and have a loving partner. I am sure with 1/10th of what I have been doing for this woman, many women would be so happy that may wonder where I have been all these years.

 

She wants to get whatever she wants under her terms and at the same time she does not want to lose me. I am sure about the losing part.

 

Another small thing: she is annoyed by my inconsistency which results from me changing my outlook to an extreme. I feel so happy and good about myself.

[Kenyth]

JM, he doesn't want to hear that yet. Denial is a natural reaction stage in any situation like this. You'll notice our friend doesn't really respond in depth to any of us telling him this. He probably knows it to be true at some level, but he has to walk his own path to the epiphany. He's heard all the advice and testimony, and he has to make his own decisions from here.

 

Maybe we're wrong, and I really hope things work out for him.

[Kenyth]

I take that back. RB, your last post sounds promising. Maybe you're finally getting to the end of your patience?

[redblack66]

JM, he doesn't want to hear that yet. Denial is a natural reaction stage in any situation like this. You'll notice our friend doesn't really respond in depth to any of us telling him this. He probably knows it to be true at some level, but he has to walk his own path to the epiphany. He's heard all the advice and testimony, and he has to make his own decisions from here.

 

Maybe we're wrong, and I really hope things work out for him.

 

Friends, I am quite open to hear whatever you tell me. I am intelligent enough to extract and apply whatever I feel is good. Yes, I admit I am in denial, and I am walking this path to the epiphany. At the end, I will say I did everything I could, and I will live with clear mind and self respect to the end of my days that I tried hard, no guilt for destroying the marriage.

[redblack66]

I take that back. RB, your last post sounds promising. Maybe you're finally getting to the end of your patience?

 

Well, it is not just patience. Every person has a pain threshold level, and I feel I am not that far from it.

[redblack66]

The main reason for my posts was to save things. A second reason

is to learn more about myself and relations so I am more successful

next time.

 

Here is a question. I feel she feels guilty inside about her infidelity, and also tries to justify it as much as she can.

 

She said last night she has no guilt whatsoever. From your experience,

do you think that there is a good chance that she has no guilt?

[Missy27]

Your W will be fighting a constant inner battle with guilt RB ~ thing is ~ it's only apparent to you AND her ~ when she actually takes it on the chin and realises what she is doing ~ and at the moment ~ her periods of clarity are far more infrequent than they would be if she wasn't all caught up with the feelings associated with an affair

 

So ~ in effect ~ she WILL try and blame you whenever something or someone else rains on her parade ~ because she's then got a reason to validate her own behavior ~

 

ONLY when your W has extricated herself entirely from the affair will she be in a position to assess the damage she has caused within the realms of the family dynamic ~ and this is where is gets quite difficult ~ because at the moment her guilt is fairly stagnant and it seems to me as though she's recoiling back within and continuing with the affair in the hope that she doesn't HAVE to deal with what she perceives to be a train wreck at the other end ~ she's fully aware that guilt will be prominent within if she confines herself to total reality ~

 

This makes it difficult for you because you are still living under the same roof ~ so implementing Plan B has been near enough impossible ~ I think I would take LJ's advice and try and introduce plan B when you meet with the lawyers next Friday ~ It'll be a good wake up call for your W because she hasn't had to deal with the reality of splitting assets etc yet ~ and Like LJ said ~ it might be a good time to bring up Divorce Papers to REALLY get her ticker ticking ~

[redblack66]

And another thing that I do not understand.

 

She wants SPACE. I offered I go away during the week or on the weekend, but she is not OK with it.

 

I said I am going out tomorrow, she said 'you are not going', but then agreed.

 

Is this a control-freak behavior, or what is it?

Surely, I am wasting time, but it will pay off later in life.

[Kenyth]

And another thing that I do not understand.

 

She wants SPACE. I offered I go away during the week or on the weekend, but she is not OK with it.

 

I said I am going out tomorrow, she said 'you are not going', but then agreed.

 

Is this a control-freak behavior, or what is it?

Surely, I am wasting time, but it will pay off later in life.

 

She want's space, but she doesn't want you cheating either. Since she did it, that insecurity ironically transfers onto you. That doesn't mean she necessarily wants you as a husband. It's a selfish thing characteristic of cheating souses that they want to have their cake and want to eat it to. She wants to play, but wants your security as well. It's more of a father/ teenager relationship than a husband/wife relationship. She's milking you for support while she tries unsuccessfully to get together a life plan.

[redblack66]

Your W will be fighting a constant inner battle with guilt RB ~ thing is ~ it's only apparent to you AND her ~ when she actually takes it on the chin and realises what she is doing ~ and at the moment ~ her periods of clarity are far more infrequent than they would be if she wasn't all caught up with the feelings associated with an affair

I agree. I think you are right.

 

So ~ in effect ~ she WILL try and blame you whenever something or someone else rains on her parade ~ because she's then got a reason to validate her own behavior ~

 

The way things are going, we will be physically separated, and I will do NC big time, so she will not have a chance to blame me.

 

ONLY when your W has extricated herself entirely from the affair will she be in a position to assess the damage she has caused within the realms of the family dynamic ~ and this is where is gets quite difficult ~ because at the moment her guilt is fairly stagnant and it seems to me as though she's recoiling back within and continuing with the affair in the hope that she doesn't HAVE to deal with what she perceives to be a train wreck at the other end ~ she's fully aware that guilt will be prominent within if she confines herself to total reality ~

Yes, she does not see the train wreck and she is in the affair. It helps her feel good and does not allow her to think long term about future of kids, etc.

 

This makes it difficult for you because you are still living under the same roof ~ so implementing Plan B has been near enough impossible ~ I think I would take LJ's advice and try and introduce plan B when you meet with the lawyers next Friday ~ It'll be a good wake up call for your W because she hasn't had to deal with the reality of splitting assets etc yet ~ and Like LJ said ~ it might be a good time to bring up Divorce Papers to REALLY get her ticker ticking ~

 

I major reason I would bring divorce paper is to cut the pain, or in other words, it is likely that I will not focus on maximizing success but minimizing pain.

[redblack66]

She want's space, but she doesn't want you cheating either. Since she did it, that insecurity ironically transfers onto you. That doesn't mean she necessarily wants you as a husband. It's a selfish thing characteristic of cheating souses that they want to have their cake and want to eat it to. She wants to play, but wants your security as well. It's more of a father/ teenager relationship than a husband/wife relationship. She's milking you for support while she tries unsuccessfully to get together a life plan.

 

Good points. I am wondering (hypothetically) if I indeed find a woman and really get involved, how she may react. (1) She may feel completely justified in what she is doing and will keep telling everybody I have a woman in my life, or (2) she may run to me.

I think (1) will happen, and it will be blessing for her.

[jmargel]

The main reason for my posts was to save things. A second reason

is to learn more about myself and relations so I am more successful

next time.

 

Here is a question. I feel she feels guilty inside about her infidelity, and also tries to justify it as much as she can.

 

She said last night she has no guilt whatsoever. From your experience,

do you think that there is a good chance that she has no guilt?

 

She honestly believes she has no guilt, because she does not have any. I know this is hard to hear and is probably the finale to it all. The reason why she feels this is due to her immaturity.

 

She is acting like a sister beating up her brother. She gives justifications for her behavior and she honestly believes it. Yes it is cold-hearted and no you can't change it. Words are meaningless to her, her feelings/thoughts are set in stone. You can't make her feel sorry for something she doesn't feel sorry for. Should she feel sorry? Yes, she should but that's something you can't make a person feel. Just like you can't make a person 'want' you or 'love' you.

 

Her decisions are only in the 'now' we all know what the outcome with this new guy is going to be, but she is blind-sided. And when that train crashes she's just going to hop on another one which will eventually derail. Unfortunetly, nothing you do will stop this. The best thing you can do right now is walk away. I don't normally give this advice and I only give it when I see there is no chance of her changing her attitude.

 

The root of this problem is not the other man, it's not the affair. It's the constant disrespect, immaturity and selfish attitude that is. She needs to fix these roots of her problems before everything else changes. This is something you can't help her with, she has to want to change herself and goto counseling. With you being there and tolerating all of this, you are just encouraging her to do it more. She has zero consequences for her behavior, so why should she change? You have to look at her like she is your daughter. Would you put up with this behavior if your daughter disrespected you like this?

 

She has zero value in this marriage and you need to be very careful that you don't let this affect your own self-worth. She would be doing this to anyone she is married to. You need to start taking care of yourself, it's ok to move on.

[bestadvisor]

 

She is pissed off when I go out because she does not know if it is a date or not a date, if I am trying to make her jealous, etc. This is my way of control her apparently, if I do not get what I want, I go on a date, this is what she says.

 

 

She is still thinking that you've cheated and maybe continue to cheat. I still stand by my advice 1 I gave you about two weeks ago.

 

I agree with most, I think seperation is inevitable and probably the only chance for waking her up if ever. This whole living together situation is not working out because you share responsibility but not intimacy. Basically, you're getting only the bad part of a relationship but not the good part.

[redblack66]

She honestly believes she has no guilt, because she does not have any. I know this is hard to hear and is probably the finale to it all. The reason why she feels this is due to her immaturity.

I spoke to Dr. Harley from marriage builders; I called their radio show. He said the same thing. His view is that women rarely apologize after an affair; men usually do. He advised me not to expect remorse or apology.

 

She is acting like a sister beating up her brother. She gives justifications for her behavior and she honestly believes it. Yes it is cold-hearted and no you can't change it. Words are meaningless to her, her feelings/thoughts are set in stone. You can't make her feel sorry for something she doesn't feel sorry for. Should she feel sorry? Yes, she should but that's something you can't make a person feel. Just like you can't make a person 'want' you or 'love' you.

Yes, this is the truth. It took me long time to figure it out, but it was worth it.

 

Her decisions are only in the 'now' we all know what the outcome with this new guy is going to be, but she is blind-sided. And when that train crashes she's just going to hop on another one which will eventually derail. Unfortunetly, nothing you do will stop this. The best thing you can do right now is walk away. I don't normally give this advice and I only give it when I see there is no chance of her changing her attitude.

Her attitude will not change easily. There is immaturity and insecurity deep down her. These may never change. She has not struggled with life at all. She has had it very easy in many ways.

Unless she really experience real life, no hope she will change.

 

The root of this problem is not the other man, it's not the affair. It's the constant disrespect, immaturity and selfish attitude that is. She needs to fix these roots of her problems before everything else changes. This is something you can't help her with, she has to want to change herself and goto counseling.

 

I am not going to ask her to go to counseling. It is her choice.

 

With you being there and tolerating all of this, you are just encouraging her to do it more. She has zero consequences for her behavior, so why should she change? You have to look at her like she is your daughter. Would you put up with this behavior if your daughter disrespected you like this?

 

Again, you are right. No consequences, why change. When somebody else cheats on her, when somebody else mistreats her,

when she has to make living herself, she may realize what this means.

 

Many people listening to me have identified immaturity and insecurity.

 

She has zero value in this marriage and you need to be very careful that you don't let this affect your own self-worth. She would be doing this to anyone she is married to. You need to start taking care of yourself, it's ok to move on.

 

 

Yes, I must take care of myself, which is the only thing I can do now. Perhaps I should have done this earlier, but it seem like an unavoidable step to take, going through this pain.

[redblack66]

She is still thinking that you've cheated and maybe continue to cheat. I still stand by my advice 1 I gave you about two weeks ago.

I have not done it yet. I am thinking to write it down carefully on paper and give it to her to read it when she is in a good mood. However, I feel I care less about what she thinks now.

 

I agree with most, I think seperation is inevitable and probably the only chance for waking her up if ever. This whole living together situation is not working out because you share responsibility but not intimacy. Basically, you're getting only the bad part of a relationship but not the good part.

I am a husband when convenient and I am a separated husband when convenient. So the worst of both worlds :-)

Reading Surviving an Affair and find quite good ideas there.

[Gunny376]

You've got a fifty-fifty chance of saving this marriage?

 

Un-fortuanely the 50% toward saving it? Is YOU! The 50% of it failing is HER!

 

The way you describe her? She's had it "good" all her life. She's never been out in the "Cold" of night seeking shelther? Never had to worry about paying the light bill, keeping the heat on in the dead of winter.

 

In short? She's lived a "sheltered life" and she can always run home to Mommy and Daddy back on the Big farm.

 

I told you to fight? And I meant that ~ but it very much may be a case of having to destroy the marriage in order to save it?

 

You can't make someone respect you, but you can damn sure make sure they don't dis-respect you either?

[bestadvisor]

I have not done it yet. I am thinking to write it down carefully on paper and give it to her to read it when she is in a good mood. However, I feel I care less about what she thinks now.

 

It's a good idea to put it in writing if it's harder for you to express to her in words.

 

You think you care less and I think that's just your anger talking. Even if it's true that you care less now, in the long run, it matters.

 

Just think of it this way, you have nothing to lose by doing it. It's an honest statement that you want her to know, that she deserves to know, and last but not least, don't forget about your kids, they will be under the care of this woman for a long long time to come.

[redblack66]

You've got a fifty-fifty chance of saving this marriage?

 

Un-fortuanely the 50% toward saving it? Is YOU! The 50% of it failing is HER!

 

Thanks so much. You are the second person I respect that tells me this. Not bad after starting from 0% chance.

 

Things are very bad. I am suffering most of the time, but I also have fun, and some of it is summarized below.

 

This morning I was quite pleasant and original and she is a bit off wondering what is going on. She told me I have been VERY resourceful, in particular after I was yesterday on Marriage Builders talk show. She is going to tell her friends about it. (She has not listened to it.)

Also, relationship books from Amazon.com have been arriving at regular intervals, perhaps one per week.

 

I told her I am working on the marriage and this is a full blown research project and all my other projects are on hold.

 

She plays the piano. I downloaded the music notes of Chi Mai, which is a very nice piece by Enio Moriconne (from the film Le Professionnele). She played it and said 'Hm no bad'.

 

Tonight a male friend will pick me to go for dinner. She said you are meeting your young girlfriend. I say no girlfriend, but sometimes I think it may not be bad to have such. (All said in a joking way.)

Then out of the blue she wants to come to dinner too; I tell her that this would be fine, but she has to find a babysitter, and the dinner is about an hour drive from us. I do not think she has found a babysitter and I will not say anything, will just go.

 

My son just asked her where her wedding ring is. After a confusing explanation by her, I say with confidence 'Daddy will get another one for mommy'.

 

Today I took the kids to McDonalds with another father and his kids.

My wife told me to talk to him to treat his wife better since he will

miss her if she lives him like I was left.

 

Tomorrow we are having a few friends for drinks (before going to Christmas parade) at home and I have planned a few simple coktails that will blow them away.

 

I know all of the above likely means NOTHING, but I am indeed getting to myself, or where I used to be.

 

The only bad thing today: she told me that we were having problems

before the second child was born, and she had the second child not because to make the marriage work, but for our son to have a sibling.

This is a bizarre comment.

I changed the conversation in a quick and subtle way, so we did not dig into this.

 

The way you describe her? She's had it "good" all her life. She's never been out in the "Cold" of night seeking shelther? Never had to worry about paying the light bill, keeping the heat on in the dead of winter.

In short? She's lived a "sheltered life" and she can always run home to Mommy and Daddy back on the Big farm.

 

 

She had it easy. Many women would be very happy to be in her situation and many of my friends don't understand what in the world she wants.

 

I told you to fight? And I meant that ~ but it very much may be a case of having to destroy the marriage in order to save it?

 

You can't make someone respect you, but you can damn sure make sure they don't dis-respect you either?

 

Marriage is dead. I make sure no dis-respect and I do not care if she respects me.

[bestadvisor]

 

She said you are meeting your young girlfriend. I say no girlfriend, but sometimes I think it may not be bad to have such. (All said in a joking way.)

 

Then out of the blue she wants to come to dinner too.

 

Once again, she is definately thinking that you're cheating. You're somewhat torturing her when you're out and she's sitting at home thinking that you're out with some young girl. That creates more anger on her side and gives her more reason for her affair and justification to continue the affair.

 

 

My son just asked her where her wedding ring is. After a confusing explanation by her, I say with confidence 'Daddy will get another one for mommy'.

 

What do you really mean when you said that?

[redblack66]

Once again, she is definately thinking that you're cheating. You're somewhat torturing her when you're out and she's sitting at home thinking that you're out with some young girl.

 

I hope you are right, but I do not feel she is tortured by this. True, two wrong do not make it right, but I have been tortured (if not myself torturing) by her behavior.

 

What do you really mean when you said that?

 

I mean, but did not express it, that if we ever make it, we have to start with new vowels, new rules, new wedding rings, etc., like from scratch. The present marriage is dead; if a new relation evolves, it has to be build from the beginning, bottom up.

 

I feel I can do this, but I doubt she will make progress towards improving herself and understanding what went wrong and what to do so we do not end up in a similar situation.

 

I have my faults, but it is not just me the reason for the current break down. I started questioning myself if I should really move on and let her figure out herself, if she can.

It is incredibly painful in the current status quo.

 

I did not go anywhere today as my son fell on his head and I stayed at home. Overall, we had the best day as a family for a very long time, if not the best day ever.

[bestadvisor]

I did not go anywhere today as my son fell on his head and I stayed at home. Overall, we had the best day as a family for a very long time, if not the best day ever.

 

What happened today that's so great? Ever? Did she express her love to you?

[redblack66]

That creates more anger on her side and gives her more reason for her affair and justification to continue the affair.

 

I guess if I do not show any signs of anybody in my life, which is the case, she may have difficult time justifying her affair. I doubt that these two are related, but I can disarm her but eliminating any doubts of me cheating. This is subtle.

[redblack66]

What happened today that's so great? Ever? Did she express her love to you?

 

We had a real fun time with a lot of jokes and laughing. She did not get angry, and her nagging was minimal and 'light'. No, she did not express love explicitly, but I felt that she is registering that I am damn serious about getting this thing to work. She did not say 'don't have any hopes',

which she would normally do.

Again, a good day may mean nothing at the end.

[bestadvisor]

We had a real fun time with a lot of jokes and laughing.

 

 

I might get crusified by the others here for this suggestion, but, there is something you should consider. If the opportunity is right, try to make a move and get physical with her. I'm not suggesting trying to sleep with her, but try hand holding, hugging or kissing. I believe in order for this to work, you have to move to the next level or you'll be divorced or roommates forever. Neither of those two is what you want, is it?

 

The one clear advantage that you have over this OM is that you're here physically and he is not. Take advantage of it because he can't offer what you can thousands of miles away.