separated in the same house; would wife come around

[redblack66]

Sit down with her and tell her seriously (NOT jokingly) and sincerely, that you have never cheated on her and because of that, what she did with the OM truly hurt you deeply.

 

This is the problem I am having. She says she did not cheat because we were separated. Things happened a week after they left with the kids in August. I knew she just needed some time off. This is what I was told. In her mind, we were separated.

 

My logic is: you are married after the documents are signed, you are divorced after the documents are signed, you are separated when there is a separation agreement. We did not have such.

Is my logic right?

[bestadvisor]

This is the problem I am having. She says she did not cheat because we were separated. Things happened a week after they left with the kids in August. I knew she just needed some time off. This is what I was told. In her mind, we were separated.

 

She is trying to justify her actions, but failed misserably. If her fling is not cheating, why lie afterward? If that's not an affair, why the secretcy with email from library and not from home?

 

Untill the divorce is finalized, you're still married even after you've signed the divorce paper.

 

By the way, I like the 4 items you've listed, especially number 1 and number 2.

[redblack66]

She is trying to justify her actions, but failed misserably. If her fling is not cheating, why lie afterward? If that's not an affair, why the secretcy with email from library and not from home?

She is justifying somehow what she is doing in her mind. When I confronted her, she does not even consider it a relation. I think she is just living in self denial. I think she justified herself by my 'many affairs'.

 

I am a computer expert, so she thinks I am catching her e-mails. I have interest, as a hobby, to visit spy shops and just learn things. She thinks I am taping her phone conversations. It has crossed my mind,

but I think I am better than that.

 

Untill the divorce is finalized, you're still married even after you've signed the divorce paper.

 

This is what I believe. I told her I am getting involved after this divorce is finalize. Mostly for respect towards myself, herself, and I am simply not ready. I was not a saint in my life before I met her, and I just decided I am drawing the line and staying with this person.

 

By the way, I like the 4 items you've listed, especially number 1 and number 2.

 

Thank you so much for the reassurance.

[Ladyjane14]

I spent the time thinking, reading, and in particular LS. This is what I am planning to tell her.

 

1. I will not let the kids go and live permanently so far away from me. This is out of question. (I entertained this idea, but now I am sure what I want.)

 

2. I will not move out of the house. I do not see why; and I do not see how I can tell my kids 'Daddy loves you but have to go to live somewhere else.' (Recently, my son wanted to sleep with me in the basement. So sweet. She has a problem with this.)

 

3. I am not filing for divorce.

(In my emotions, I wanted to file for divorce, but I will not file in the near future. Tough love will not work here.)

 

4. I am able and willing to do many things for you, but I will not help you destroy our family.

 

 

Under ordinary circumstances, I'd say it's a good plan. But now that you've shared a bit more of the background... I don't think it'll bring her back to you.

 

There's nothing in this plan for her, so her choice will be to either completely capitulate or to fight you for custody of the children so she can move on without you. She's pretty darn unhappy and she's got the bit in her teeth... I think she'll fight. I would if I were her. There's always a chance that the judge will see it her way.

 

When you look at this thing from her POV, she's a very involved mother who has centered her life around her children. But she's not getting anything for herself, nothing to bolster her individuality. She's trapped, and will never have what she wants out of life if she stays with you. Read that again... SHE WILL NEVER HAVE WHAT SHE WANTS OUT OF LIFE IF SHE STAYS WITH YOU.

 

Now you might argue that it's not true, that you'd do anything to make her happy... but it doesn't matter. Her perception is her truth. If she believes that she'll never find contentment with you, then that's what she believes. From her POV, your previous actions are damning.

 

Over the years , you have (at times) been unpleasant to live with... depressed, stressed, uninvolved within the family, and somewhat insensitive to her needs. You have not understood her anxieties about parenting the children or why she feels it's imperative to put them first.

 

She's not happy. Her life is not turning out the way she planned. There's nothing in it that's just for her.

 

Take it from me, because I TOTALLY get the whole "anxious mommy" thing... she's not any happier living like this than you are. It's sucking the life out of her. On the one hand, she loves her kids more than life itself. On the other, she's giving so much to them that there's nothing left over for HER, (or for you either for that matter).

 

You know, ultimately how I saved my marriage was this... I ministered to my husband as a nurse to a patient. I catered to him. I put him first. I offered him a "soft place to fall". I fed him. I made sure he was getting enough sleep, enough relaxation, and enough lovin'. I joined HIS TEAM.

 

He was messed up. He was depressed, confused, and experiencing both emotional and physical pain. And like you, at the height of your wife's complaint... he had isolated himself from family life. I could just as easily have pulled the same stunt as your wife, said "It's over because I SAY it's over". Lord knows I was tempted enough at times to do it.

 

I think you're going to have to offer her something. She sees the neon sign marking the EXIT, and you haven't put anything on the table that she really wants right now.

 

For what it's worth, I think she probably still loves you underneath it all. She's been interested in where you go and who you see. But I also think that whatever love she has for you is blocked by her resentments, and it's not until those resentments have been cleared up that either of you will be able to assess what you have left. Afterall, you have your own little beaver dam of resentment logs blocking the flow of your love too.

 

I want you to consider something:

And Ruth said, Entreat me not to leave thee, and to return from following after thee, for whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge; thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God

 

See... right now, neither of you is willing to do that for the other. And THAT's where you need to be in order to pull this thing out of the ditch.

 

In 25 years of marriage, I have NEVER had it my way. It was always ME, making sacrifices and following where my husband led.

But I'll tell you this, when the chips were down... he copied that little bible quote onto a little piece of paper...and slipped it into my hand.

 

Find a way to offer this woman some happiness, or you will lose her. It's just that simple.

 

Now, I'm not saying that you move out of your home, or you give her the divorce she's dreaming of (the one where she and the kids ditch you and move 2000 miles away). If you can't find any middle ground to negotiate then your plan above is the best one available because it'll give you the home-field advantage at the settlement table. But... if there is ANY way to give her some of what she wants out of life and still keep your family together... then I think you'd have a better shot at reconciling the marriage.

[redblack66]

Under ordinary circumstances, I'd say it's a good plan. But now that you've shared a bit more of the background... I don't think it'll bring her back to you.

 

LJ, you are really making me think at a much deeper level.

 

 

There's nothing in this plan for her, so her choice will be to either completely capitulate or to fight you for custody of the children so she can move on without you. She's pretty darn unhappy and she's got the bit in her teeth... I think she'll fight. I would if I were her. There's always a chance that the judge will see it her way.

I would not fight for custody. I may be considering joint custody, but I have to think carefully about this.

 

 

SHE WILL NEVER HAVE WHAT SHE WANTS OUT OF LIFE IF SHE STAYS WITH YOU.

 

Now you might argue that it's not true, that you'd do anything to make her happy... but it doesn't matter. Her perception is her truth. If she believes that she'll never find contentment with you, then that's what she believes. From her POV, your previous actions are damning.

Exactly.

 

Over the years , you have (at times) been unpleasant to live with... depressed, stressed, uninvolved within the family, and somewhat insensitive to her needs. You have not understood her anxieties about parenting the children or why she feels it's imperative to put them first.

 

She's not happy. Her life is not turning out the way she planned. There's nothing in it that's just for her.

Unfortunately true.

 

You know, ultimately how I saved my marriage was this... I ministered to my husband as a nurse to a patient. I catered to him. I put him first. I offered him a "soft place to fall". I fed him. I made sure he was getting enough sleep, enough relaxation, and enough lovin'. I joined HIS TEAM.

 

He was messed up. He was depressed, confused, and experiencing both emotional and physical pain. And like you, at the height of your wife's complaint... he had isolated himself from family life. I could just as easily have pulled the same stunt as your wife, said "It's over because I SAY it's over". Lord knows I was tempted enough at times to do it.

I missed all the signs. I wish at least I was told explicitly that I was going downhill.

 

I think you're going to have to offer her something. She sees the neon sign marking the EXIT, and you haven't put anything on the table that she really wants right now.

I wish I knew what I could be offering. Perhaps I am blinded in the whole thing. Any ideas? I will think tonight.

 

She really wants to move 2,000 miles away. The best I can do is move 4 hours drive from there, so I can see the kids more regularly, or perhaps change careers altogether. This is a long shot.

 

She really wants me to move out of the house right now.

For what it's worth, I think she probably still loves you underneath it all. She's been interested in where you go and who you see. But I also think that whatever love she has for you is blocked by her resentments, and it's not until those resentments have been cleared up that either of you will be able to assess what you have left. Afterall, you have your own little beaver dam of resentment logs blocking the flow of your love too.

A good starting point is to try to discuss these resentments and try to evaluate what we have left.

 

 

See... right now, neither of you is willing to do that for the other. And THAT's where you need to be in order to pull this thing out of the ditch.

I could not quite understand your quote, but I will re-read it several times.

 

In 25 years of marriage, I have NEVER had it my way. It was always ME, making sacrifices and following where my husband led.

But I'll tell you this, when the chips were down... he copied that little bible quote onto a little piece of paper...and slipped it into my hand.

I wonder if I should do the same thing.

 

Find a way to offer this woman some happiness, or you will lose her. It's just that simple.

Now, I'm not saying that you move out of your home, or you give her the divorce she's dreaming of (the one where she and the kids ditch you and move 2000 miles away).

This will make her happy, I am sure.

 

If you can't find any middle ground to negotiate then your plan above is the best one available because it'll give you the home-field advantage at the settlement table. But... if there is ANY way to give her some of what she wants out of life and still keep your family together... then I think you'd have a better shot at reconciling the marriage.

Perhaps I can ask her "if there is ANY way I can give her some of what she wants out of life and still keep our family together...

 

Really insightful post. I think I am getting it from you.

Hard ball will not work as some suggested, I believe.

 

It seems that I have not been functioning at the emotional level of my wife.

[Gunny376]

Under ordinary circumstances, I'd say it's a good plan. But now that you've shared a bit more of the background... I don't think it'll bring her back to you.

 

There's nothing in this plan for her, so her choice will be to either completely capitulate or to fight you for custody of the children so she can move on without you. She's pretty darn unhappy and she's got the bit in her teeth... I think she'll fight. I would if I were her. There's always a chance that the judge will see it her way.

 

When you look at this thing from her POV, she's a very involved mother who has centered her life around her children. But she's not getting anything for herself, nothing to bolster her individuality. She's trapped, and will never have what she wants out of life if she stays with you. Read that again... SHE WILL NEVER HAVE WHAT SHE WANTS OUT OF LIFE IF SHE STAYS WITH YOU.

 

Now you might argue that it's not true, that you'd do anything to make her happy... but it doesn't matter. Her perception is her truth. If she believes that she'll never find contentment with you, then that's what she believes. From her POV, your previous actions are damning.

 

Over the years , you have (at times) been unpleasant to live with... depressed, stressed, uninvolved within the family, and somewhat insensitive to her needs. You have not understood her anxieties about parenting the children or why she feels it's imperative to put them first.

 

She's not happy. Her life is not turning out the way she planned. There's nothing in it that's just for her.

 

Take it from me, because I TOTALLY get the whole "anxious mommy" thing... she's not any happier living like this than you are. It's sucking the life out of her. On the one hand, she loves her kids more than life itself. On the other, she's giving so much to them that there's nothing left over for HER, (or for you either for that matter).

 

You know, ultimately how I saved my marriage was this... I ministered to my husband as a nurse to a patient. I catered to him. I put him first. I offered him a "soft place to fall". I fed him. I made sure he was getting enough sleep, enough relaxation, and enough lovin'. I joined HIS TEAM.

 

He was messed up. He was depressed, confused, and experiencing both emotional and physical pain. And like you, at the height of your wife's complaint... he had isolated himself from family life. I could just as easily have pulled the same stunt as your wife, said "It's over because I SAY it's over". Lord knows I was tempted enough at times to do it.

 

I think you're going to have to offer her something. She sees the neon sign marking the EXIT, and you haven't put anything on the table that she really wants right now.

 

For what it's worth, I think she probably still loves you underneath it all. She's been interested in where you go and who you see. But I also think that whatever love she has for you is blocked by her resentments, and it's not until those resentments have been cleared up that either of you will be able to assess what you have left. Afterall, you have your own little beaver dam of resentment logs blocking the flow of your love too.

 

I want you to consider something:

 

 

See... right now, neither of you is willing to do that for the other. And THAT's where you need to be in order to pull this thing out of the ditch.

 

In 25 years of marriage, I have NEVER had it my way. It was always ME, making sacrifices and following where my husband led.

But I'll tell you this, when the chips were down... he copied that little bible quote onto a little piece of paper...and slipped it into my hand.

 

Find a way to offer this woman some happiness, or you will lose her. It's just that simple.

 

Now, I'm not saying that you move out of your home, or you give her the divorce she's dreaming of (the one where she and the kids ditch you and move 2000 miles away). If you can't find any middle ground to negotiate then your plan above is the best one available because it'll give you the home-field advantage at the settlement table. But... if there is ANY way to give her some of what she wants out of life and still keep your family together... then I think you'd have a better shot at reconciling the marriage.

 

 

I'm not saying that you're not "spot-on" LJ, and 99.999999% of the time you are? But (LOL! the old "Yea But")

 

You and I are cut from different parts of the rug than most.

 

Hell the last Class III hurricane I lived through up in North Carolina? I went out and slept in my car, drank some Canadia Whiskey and listened to John Mellencamp & George Jones all night long! (Too hot with the power off? I've been through twelve or thirteen hurricanes and typhoons more or less in my life? Just a lot of rain and wind ~ and the occassional stray tornado?)

 

Something for you to think about RB?

 

http://www.creators.com/lifestylefeatures/annies-mailbox/annie-s-mailbox-r-2007-11-17.html

[redblack66]

When you look at this thing from her POV, she's a very involved mother who has centered her life around her children. But she's not getting anything for herself, nothing to bolster her individuality. She's trapped, and will never have what she wants out of life if she stays with you. Read that again... SHE WILL NEVER HAVE WHAT SHE WANTS OUT OF LIFE IF SHE STAYS WITH YOU.

 

 

Now you might argue that it's not true, that you'd do anything to make her happy... but it doesn't matter. Her perception is her truth. If she believes that she'll never find contentment with you, then that's what she believes. From her POV, your previous actions are damning.

 

LJ, I have been reading your post over and over again.

 

It took me about 4 months of intensive reading and thinking, and now I feel I am getting to feel what my wife is about. She has incredible perception about life, complicated emotional side, and I am just getting in touch with it, and likely not completely. Yes, my past actions are damning. Yes, she will not go over them, at least in the short term. She will love me, but she is done emotionally with me.

I think she will understand now what I feel about her personality

without telling her explicitly.

 

Various relationships books and resources are really helpful, but they cannot help one to really get to the bottom of things and understand the other person. I feel I am getting there, too late, but better late than never.

 

One of the difficulties when communicating with her is how to soften

her anger towards me. She frequently gets angry and lecturing about

what happened in our relation and how things should be done around the house. I really wish to convey to her that being angry is in contrast to her internal beauty, and as bad as things went (OM), she has to keep her high quality herself.

 

Take it from me, because I TOTALLY get the whole "anxious mommy" thing... she's not any happier living like this than you are. It's sucking the life out of her. On the one hand, she loves her kids more than life itself. On the other, she's giving so much to them that there's nothing left over for HER, (or for you either for that matter).

Kids sucked life out of her. My emotional turmoil drained her. Nothing was left for her. Can this be reversed? I am not an emotional drain the way I was. I am really facilitating her going to the gym, other events, etc. But this is just a superficial way of fixing things.

 

Find a way to offer this woman some happiness, or you will lose her. It's just that simple.

Simple. Yes, I need to offer her happiness. No book will help. I have to try to feel what she feels if this makes sense at all.

 

I am really devastated for letting her and myself down over the years and missing great opportunity for a great lifetime relation. And we have two really wonderful kids.

 

I feel none of us understood very well deep down what is going on with the other person emotionally.

 

I feel the key to getting together again is to really understand first what is about us, deep down in our emotions, feelings, thinking.

 

Anger and resentment are obstacles along the way. How to get over this?

They are taking the best of her. They are taking the best of me, but at least I acknowledge them and working towards getting better at eliminating them.

 

Her romance with OM is along the way. I will let this go through its "natural" course, and may be I should not bring it to the table. It may be the best thing that happened to her, it may turn out a disaster, or it may turn out a mediocre long term relation.

 

Forget about doing 180, LRT, mind games, etc. We are much better than that.

She is much smarter than that.

 

I know she has checked out, and I am very likely fooling myself that she will come back. Well, I will try as best as I can to have a pleasant life around her and give the best to the kids.

 

Honestly, this is the worst pain I have experienced in my life. I believe she in terrible pain too. I do not believe I could meet a person of this caliber. It may sound I am blinded, but I am convinced this is the truth. I wonder if I will ever recover from this.

 

LJ, please help me more with you insights. I think your posting just flipped my thinking and emotions. I am so grateful you wrote it.

 

Finally, I am wondering if I should let her read my thread now. She knows that I am on some forum, but I told her that one day I will let her read this thread, but perhaps not now. I went through an evolution from being the person she does not like to the person

she may like eventually. Her anger may intensify reading my earlier posts.

[redblack66]

 

I want you to consider something:

 

And Ruth said, Entreat me not to leave thee, and to return from following after thee, for whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge; thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God

 

In 25 years of marriage, I have NEVER had it my way. It was always ME, making sacrifices and following where my husband led.

But I'll tell you this, when the chips were down... he copied that little bible quote onto a little piece of paper...and slipped it into my hand.

 

Do you recall what your reaction was when you read this quote?

I am having difficulties understanding it, but I will. I wonder if I should give it to my wife as well.

[LostinBama]

Do you recall what your reaction was when you read this quote?

I am having difficulties understanding it, but I will. I wonder if I should give it to my wife as well.

 

Wow! That is powerful mojo!

 

I can see two possible reactions, although the wisdom is unmistakable.

[Ladyjane14]

I'm not saying that you're not "spot-on" LJ, and 99.999999% of the time you are? But (LOL! the old "Yea But")

 

You and I are cut from different parts of the rug than most.

 

Hell the last Class III hurricane I lived through up in North Carolina? I went out and slept in my car, drank some Canadia Whiskey and listened to John Mellencamp & George Jones all night long! (Too hot with the power off? I've been through twelve or thirteen hurricanes and typhoons more or less in my life? Just a lot of rain and wind ~ and the occassional stray tornado?)

 

I'm not suggesting that he "roll over and piddle" as JMargel would say. What I'm suggesting is that he find a way to sweeten the pot.

 

You're a stout-hearted fella, Gunny. That's just who you are.

So, I don't know that you can really feel what it is for a person to let their anxieties interfere with their relationships. In learning more about the intensity of this lady's parenting efforts, I can see how she'd be drained by it and exerting "controlling behaviors" in an attempt to cope with her worries.

 

People don't bully others just on general principles as you well know. They do it because they're scared. In this case, I can see the possibility that her hyper-vigilance could be an attempt to control her surroundings and keep the kids safe under her watchful eye while she administers whatever it is she believes to be a proper childhood education. This may include, growing up in a more wholesome environment like a family farm.

 

RB has run afoul of her anxieties because, in an effort to rejoin the family dynamic, he's trying to steer the ship. But if I'm reading her right, she's too afraid and too resentful to let go of the helm.

 

Add to all that, some guy with a sexy Australian accent, whispering sweet-nothings into her ear, offering her a mental distraction from her worries, and a balm to the self esteem where her sense of individuality has been lost... For the first time in a long time, she's thinking that maybe there's still hope for a future of her own, something that can be just hers and doesn't require her to wear her "mommy" hat.

 

Supposition based on one side of the story of course, but as I said... if the "overanxious mommy" dynamic is in play... I TOTALLY get that.

 

 

Various relationships books and resources are really helpful, but they cannot help one to really get to the bottom of things and understand the other person. I feel I am getting there, too late, but better late than never.

 

This is why counseling with a good therapist can be invaluable. It's an opportunity to get into specifics rather than just drawing conclusions based on generalities. When a couple goes together, they're both having their specific questions answered by an unbiased professional who's been allowed to assess each of them.

 

One of the difficulties when communicating with her is how to soften

her anger towards me. She frequently gets angry and lecturing about

what happened in our relation and how things should be done around the house. I really wish to convey to her that being angry is in contrast to her internal beauty, and as bad as things went (OM), she has to keep her high quality herself.

 

You can't control somebody else's emotions, RB. It's okay that she's angry. It's how she feels right now. She's frustrated, and rationalizing her choices, and you're blocking her path. Leaving you would probably have never been her first choice, and that too will cause strong emotions. More likely, she just doesn't know how to get what she wants without leaving you behind. So she'll be feeling that she can't relent without giving up the chance to achieve her goals.

 

It's natural that she would lash out under those circumstances. Softer emotions would threaten her resolve. But you only escalate the problem when you internalize somebody else's feelings as your own, as in meeting anger with anger. The better course is to try to 'walk a mile in her shoes' so that you get a more dispassionate view of WHY she's angry. In that way, you can understand the source of her anger without internalizing it.

 

Kids sucked life out of her. My emotional turmoil drained her. Nothing was left for her. Can this be reversed? I am not an emotional drain the way I was. I am really facilitating her going to the gym, other events, etc. But this is just a superficial way of fixing things.

 

Yes. But the resentments must be dealt with and the slate must be cleaned. The past needs to be put in the past where it belongs, and the two of you must MUTUALLY resolve to forgive one another and stand by your forgiveness decision DAILY.

 

I feel none of us understood very well deep down what is going on with the other person emotionally.

 

I feel the key to getting together again is to really understand first what is about us, deep down in our emotions, feelings, thinking.

 

Exactly.

It does no good to say you love somebody if they can't FEEL your love. To be accepted and nurtured, to be fully understood by your partner, allows a person to feel that they're never walking through this scary old world alone.

 

Gunny is right when he says the one who values the relationship least is the one with the power. That is, when it comes to ending a marriage. But... the one who values it MOST is the one who can lead the way to reconciliation, because THAT's the one who is best able to access the soothing qualities of love and comfort.

 

Anger and resentment are obstacles along the way. How to get over this?

They are taking the best of her. They are taking the best of me, but at least I acknowledge them and working towards getting better at eliminating them.

 

It is Sympathy which unblocks the dam.... understanding and sympathizing with your partner allows for MUTUAL FORGIVENESS, which is the key.

 

Her romance with OM is along the way. I will let this go through its "natural" course, and may be I should not bring it to the table. It may be the best thing that happened to her, it may turn out a disaster, or it may turn out a mediocre long term relation.

 

Given the fact that the OM is a foreigner, I think she'd be pushing to finalize the divorce if the extramarital relationship was a serious one. Think about it. If it was serious, she'd want him with her, and they'd be talking about immigration and probably 'marriage' in order to accomplish it.

 

Finally, I am wondering if I should let her read my thread now. She knows that I am on some forum, but I told her that one day I will let her read this thread, but perhaps not now. I went through an evolution from being the person she does not like to the person

she may like eventually. Her anger may intensify reading my earlier posts.

 

No, I would keep this place private if I were you. It's too hard to speak your mind, vent, or any of that when your spouse is reading along. Frankly, it's just too easy to misconstrue another's words when those words are emotive.

 

What you might do instead is clip out bits and pieces to serve as a focal point for getting a conversation started. But if you do, make sure you remove all screen names and urls. A google search of a screen name comes right back here.

 

Do you recall what your reaction was when you read this quote?

I am having difficulties understanding it, but I will. I wonder if I should give it to my wife as well.

 

I jotted off a PM to Moose, who's better equipped to give you insight into the Story of Ruth. He tends to get busy with family life, but with any luck, he might swing by to give you some thoughts on that.

 

To answer your other question... yeah, it floored me. Because I knew he MEANT it.

In our case, it meant that if the only way I could find happiness would be to return to my home state, then he would cast aside everything just to be at my side.

 

Bear in mind that like your wife, I miss my home and extended family EVERY day. There have been times over the course of 25 years when I've had to acknowledge that had I known at the time my decision to marry this particular man would mean I could NEVER go home again in any kind of meaningful way... I would NOT have done it.

 

His willingness to "goest where I go and lodgest where I lodge", the fact that he MEANS it and would live like "the sparrow of the field" if that's what it takes to be with me... put the fire out on that old regret. This was an "old regret" which had nagged me like a sore tooth for many years. And suddenly, it dissipated because I was no longer being dragged along by the circumstances of my life. I AM where I WANT to be by my own choice now. The drive to "go home" still comes to me, but now I'm not trapped by it. I can make my choices based on more mundane things, like paying the bills.

[redblack66]

I'm not suggesting that he "roll over and piddle" as JMargel would say. What I'm suggesting is that he find a way to sweeten the pot.

 

This is what I should have been doing, hope not too late.

 

RB has run afoul of her anxieties because, in an effort to rejoin the family dynamic, he's trying to steer the ship. But if I'm reading her right, she's too afraid and too resentful to let go of the helm.

 

This is the exact situation. Maybe I got more involved than I should have trying to save things. I feel I should back off a bit.

 

Add to all that, some guy with a sexy Australian accent, whispering sweet-nothings into her ear, offering her a mental distraction from her worries,

 

So true. She told me that this is her mental distraction from everyday life.

 

This is why counseling with a good therapist can be invaluable. It's an opportunity to get into specifics rather than just drawing conclusions based on generalities. When a couple goes together, they're both having their specific questions answered by an unbiased professional who's been allowed to assess each of them.

We have a session on Dec 5. Problem is that they are not every week,

but better than nothing.

 

 

You can't control somebody else's emotions, RB. It's okay that she's angry. It's how she feels right now. She's frustrated, and rationalizing her choices, and you're blocking her path. Leaving you would probably have never been her first choice, and that too will cause strong emotions. More likely, she just doesn't know how to get what she wants without leaving you behind. So she'll be feeling that she can't relent without giving up the chance to achieve her goals.

 

Also very true. I listen to her more than ever. The more she expresses her anger, the more I feel she is justified in what she is doing.

Here is a subtle situation: if I say let's talk, e.g., about the kids only,

it may seem that I am not interesting in her pain. If I listen to her rationalizing, she is just convinced in what she believes is right.

 

It's natural that she would lash out under those circumstances. Softer emotions would threaten her resolve. But you only escalate the problem when you internalize somebody else's feelings as your own, as in meeting anger with anger.

No, I do not get angry. I just listen and typically say that I understand and I am sorry for what has happened. I do not know what else to say. Is this the correct approach. Essentially she is also trying to

tell me how wrong things have been. I have accepted this.

 

The better course is to try to 'walk a mile in her shoes' so that you get a more dispassionate view of WHY she's angry. In that way, you can understand the source of her anger without internalizing it.

 

I think I have walked a long path towards understanding her state.

 

 

Yes. But the resentments must be dealt with and the slate must be cleaned. The past needs to be put in the past where it belongs, and the two of you must MUTUALLY resolve to forgive one another and stand by your forgiveness decision DAILY.

 

Would it be appropriate to tell her:

1. Let's try to put the past where it belongs at least for a month or two and focus on today. (I have said this couple of times.)

2. I will try forgive you, as a gift to me. Perhaps we can mutually agree to forgive each other for ourselves at least.

 

Exactly.

It does no good to say you love somebody if they can't FEEL your love. To be accepted and nurtured, to be fully understood by your partner, allows a person to feel that they're never walking through this scary old world alone.

 

Excellent point. I really have to dig deep into her and perhaps I should ask her for her help trying to understand even more what is going on.

 

Gunny is right when he says the one who values the relationship least is the one with the power. That is, when it comes to ending a marriage. But... the one who values it MOST is the one who can lead the way to reconciliation, because THAT's the one who is best able to access the soothing qualities of love and comfort.

Perfect saying.

 

 

It is Sympathy which unblocks the dam.... understanding and sympathizing with your partner allows for MUTUAL FORGIVENESS, which is the key.

 

I will never forget this quote.

 

Before I left and gave the card to my wife, there was in the middle of one of these standard writings, and this one was "With sympathy".

 

Given the fact that the OM is a foreigner, I think she'd be pushing to finalize the divorce if the extramarital relationship was a serious one.

 

She told me it was not serious, but this is a way for her to exists in the current stress.

 

What you might do instead is clip out bits and pieces to serve as a focal point for getting a conversation started. But if you do, make sure you remove all screen names and urls. A google search of a screen name comes right back here.

This is what I thought. I am a computer guy, so I know well...

 

 

To answer your other question... yeah, it floored me. Because I knew he MEANT it.

In our case, it meant that if the only way I could find happiness would be to return to my home state, then he would cast aside everything just to be at my side.

 

Funny enough before the break up happened, I was seriously considering moving closer to her parents. Honestly, in the last half a year my brain and wisdom have been 3-4 months behind.

 

Bear in mind that like your wife, I miss my home and extended family EVERY day. There have been times over the course of 25 years when I've had to acknowledge that had I known at the time my decision to marry this particular man would mean I could NEVER go home again in any kind of meaningful way... I would NOT have done it.

 

I understand. But know there is the reality...

 

His willingness to "goest where I go and lodgest where I lodge", the fact that he MEANS it and would live like "the sparrow of the field" if that's what it takes to be with me... put the fire out on that old regret. This was an "old regret" which had nagged me like a sore tooth for many years. And suddenly, it dissipated because I was no longer being dragged along by the circumstances of my life. I AM where I WANT to be by my own choice now. The drive to "go home" still comes to me, but now I'm not trapped by it. I can make my choices based on more mundane things, like paying the bills.

 

 

You have done great. My emotional state is not right to make this decision like your husband. Thanks again. I will take a little break

and be on LS in couple of hours.

[Gunny376]

I'm not suggesting that he "roll over and piddle" as JMargel would say. What I'm suggesting is that he find a way to sweeten the pot.

 

You're a stout-hearted fella, Gunny. That's just who you are.

So, I don't know that you can really feel what it is for a person to let their anxieties interfere with their relationships. In learning more about the intensity of this lady's parenting efforts, I can see how she'd be drained by it and exerting "controlling behaviors" in an attempt to cope with her worries.

 

People don't bully others just on general principles as you well know. They do it because they're scared. In this case, I can see the possibility that her hyper-vigilance could be an attempt to control her surroundings and keep the kids safe under her watchful eye while she administers whatever it is she believes to be a proper childhood education. This may include, growing up in a more wholesome environment like a family farm.

 

RB has run afoul of her anxieties because, in an effort to rejoin the family dynamic, he's trying to steer the ship. But if I'm reading her right, she's too afraid and too resentful to let go of the helm.

 

Add to all that, some guy with a sexy Australian accent, whispering sweet-nothings into her ear, offering her a mental distraction from her worries, and a balm to the self esteem where her sense of individuality has been lost... For the first time in a long time, she's thinking that maybe there's still hope for a future of her own, something that can be just hers and doesn't require her to wear her "mommy" hat.

 

Supposition based on one side of the story of course, but as I said... if the "overanxious mommy" dynamic is in play... I TOTALLY get that.

 

ME? I don't need a woman in my life?

 

Except......................., to explain things like this to me? And, well to make me laugh? And smile! And compaionship? And to put a twinkle in my eye. To compliment me, show me when I'm wrong? To help me to become a better me? To show me a perspective that I otherwise would never see? To throw me the occassional "Yea but?" To change my interior decorating theme from chair made out of sandbags, camoflauge curtains and bedspreads, with heads of dead animals hanging off the wall, and other things in and about Life.

 

I totally get the Bibilcal quote ~ I was ready to walk away from a 16 year carrer in the Marines to save my marriage. I put it on the table and was serious about it.

 

I'm a late "baby-boomer" raised by "Depression" era grandparents, my metal tempered by twenty years in the Marine Corps. So,.......................I don't always get a lot of this business of today.

 

First? Us Baby-boomers survived being born of mothers that smoked and/or drank while pregnant?

 

They tookk asprin, ate bleu cheese dressing and tuna from a can and didn't get tested for diabeties.

 

And then after surviving that trauma? We were put to bed on our tummies in baby cribs with bright lead based paint colors.

 

We had no child-proof lids on medicine bottles, doors or cabinets and when we rode our bikes we didn't have any helmets, not to mention the risks we took when hitchhiking.

 

As infants and children we would ride in cars without any car seats, booster seats, air bags nor seat belts, and riding in the back of a truck on a hot humid day with the family dogs was a special treat!

 

We shared one single bottle of Coke~Cola with four friends ~ and no one actually died!

 

We ate cup cakes, ate white bread, and drank Kool-Aide made with real sugar, but none of us were overweight because we were always outside playing.

 

We would leave home in the morning and be gone all day as long as we were back home when the street lights came on.

 

No one was able to reach us all day ~ and we were OK!

 

We would spend hours building go-carts out of scrap, only to discover we had forgotten about brakes, but after running into the bushes and a tree or two? We managed to solve this problem.

 

We didn't have Playstations, Ninetendos, X-Boxes, no video games at all? No 150 channels on TV, no video movies, DVD's, surrond sound, CD's, MP3 players, personal computers, cell phones, internet, nor chat rooms?

 

WE HAD FRIENDS ~ BECAUSE WE WENT OUT AND FOUND THEM!

 

We fell out of trees, got cut, broke bones and teeth, and there were no lawsuits becuase of these accidents.

 

We ate worms and mud pies and the worms did not live in us forever?

 

We were given BB guns for our 10th birthday made up games with sticks and tennis balls, and although we were told it could happen ~ we didn't put many eyes out?

 

We rode bikes or walked blocks and blocks to friends houses, and knocked or rang the bell, or just walked right in just to say "Hi!" and talk to them?

 

Little League had tryouts and not everyone made the team! Those that didn't had to learn how to deal with the disappointment ~ imagine that?

 

The idea of a parent bailing us out of jail if we got in trouble with the law was unheard of ~ they actually sided with the law?

 

We had freedom, sucess, failures, disappointments and responsibilty. Yet? We've learned how to deal with it. And we were/are some of the greatest "risk-takers", problem-solvers, inventors ever?

 

We suck it up and did the best we could and can.

[Ladyjane14]

I listen to her more than ever. The more she expresses her anger, the more I feel she is justified in what she is doing.

Here is a subtle situation: if I say let's talk, e.g., about the kids only,

it may seem that I am not interesting in her pain. If I listen to her rationalizing, she is just convinced in what she believes is right.

 

She's already convinced she's right. Don't make any mistake about that.

You lose nothing at this point in allowing her to "babble" but an opportunity to counter it and stick pins in her convictions.

 

Don't forget, your job is to introduce some doubts so that she's not so sure of the course she's set herself upon. IOW, she believes she can never be happy while married to you, so you need to show her that you ARE ready, willing, and able to meet her needs.

 

The trick here is to not stand toe-to-toe arguing back, but rather to Listen, Rephrase, and Repeat so that you make sure you understand her point. Then you tailor your response to the specific point she made, resisting the urge to throw in alot of side topics.

 

No, I do not get angry. I just listen and typically say that I understand and I am sorry for what has happened. I do not know what else to say. Is this the correct approach. Essentially she is also trying to

tell me how wrong things have been. I have accepted this.

 

To say you understand will only help the situation if you really DO understand. If you don't, then you keep using the Listen, Rephrase, and Repeat technique until you do. This doesn't mean you necessarily agree with whatever point she's making.. only that you have a full understanding of it.

 

Would it be appropriate to tell her:

1. Let's try to put the past where it belongs at least for a month or two and focus on today. (I have said this couple of times.)

2. I will try forgive you, as a gift to me. Perhaps we can mutually agree to forgive each other for ourselves at least.

 

I don't think she's in the right frame of mind to really consider Mutual Forgiveness yet.

 

Maybe a better alternative would be to ask her this...

"If the sky was the limit, and you could change ANYTHING about me, or the way we relate to one another as a married couple, or the circumstances surrounding our family life... what would it be? If you could have the future just the way you want it, within the context of family life together, what would you want?"

 

If you can get a peek into her "idealized" view, perhaps you can find a point or two which can be negotiated.

 

Bear in mind that like your wife, I miss my home and extended family EVERY day. There have been times over the course of 25 years when I've had to acknowledge that had I known at the time my decision to marry this particular man would mean I could NEVER go home again in any kind of meaningful way... I would NOT have done it.

I understand. But know there is the reality...

The reality you're speaking of is the one in which your wife is LEAVING YOU. I think it's only wisdom, as you measure priorities... to put that one on your list.

 

Financial security is important, no doubt about that. And when you have kids to consider... it's doubly so. But, is it worth the loss of your family dynamic? Would you live in a tent with this woman if that's what it took to keep you together?

[Ladyjane14]

Your post reminds me of that song, A Different World by Bucky Covington, Gunny. I was raised that way too.

 

Maybe it's the surplus of information we get these days, maybe it's the breakdown of our society. Either we're worrying too much over nothing, or the world has indeed become a place where children are preyed upon. Some days it's hard to keep 'er in the middle of the road.. because fact is, bad things happen. You can hardly watch the news these days without hearing about some kid getting snatched up by a pervert.

 

I think the overanxious types, like me , tend to err on the side of caution, which when left unabated can become hyper-vigilance.

[redblack66]

IOW, she believes she can never be happy while married to you, so you need to show her that you ARE ready, willing, and able to meet her needs.

Well, this will be a difficult one. It is difficult to identify them first.

Then she may not believe if I start working on them.

 

I don't think she's in the right frame of mind to really consider Mutual Forgiveness yet.

 

Maybe a better alternative would be to ask her this...

"If the sky was the limit, and you could change ANYTHING about me, or the way we relate to one another as a married couple, or the circumstances surrounding our family life... what would it be? If you could have the future just the way you want it, within the context of family life together, what would you want?"

 

I have asked something along these lines earlier. Her response was 'I have given you many chances'. It is possible I get the same response.

 

If you can get a peek into her "idealized" view, perhaps you can find a point or two which can be negotiated.

I hope we can get to this point.

[redblack66]

I don't think she's in the right frame of mind to really consider Mutual Forgiveness yet.

Another tough issue: she already told me that I will never forgive her for getting involved with somebody else, so we are doomed.

[bestadvisor]

Here are the two facts that caught my attention:

 

She told me it was not serious, but this is a way for her to exists in the current stress.

 

If what she said was really true, you chance of recovering just got a lot better. Ever consider sitting down with her and talk to her as a friend to find out where this relationship with this OM will lead to in say 5 years from now and how this relationship is going to handle realities such as income, child care, living arrangements, etc.?

 

 

Another tough issue: she already told me that I will never forgive her for getting involved with somebody else, so we are doomed.

 

Is that some type of admission of fault on her part? If the answer is "yes," ask yourself if you're willing to forgive her. It seems that your answer is yes based on your last 5 or 6 posts above. At the sametime, also ask her to forgive you for X, Y, Z that you have done or haven't done in the past few years.

 

Based on what you've stated, it seems that your W is the sensitive type. If so, talk to her not in an accusory way, but rather express to her that you were hurt deeply (as you've stated, more than ever in your life) and that you're willing to work on forgivenss and improvement on your part.

[Ladyjane14]

Another tough issue: she already told me that I will never forgive her for getting involved with somebody else, so we are doomed.

 

But that's not true, is it?

Because I get the feeling that you very much WOULD like to forgive her. If she doesn't know that... don't you think it'd be a good thing if she did?

[bestadvisor]

Has she ever seen you cry? Have you cried in front of her after your discovery of the affair? Women (especially the sensitive type) are moved deeply seeing a man cry and that can usually be a HUGE turning point. Ever considering pouring your heart out to rescue this marriage? We cannot give you answers, but merely suggestions and it's ultimately up to you to take the actions based on your own personal knowledge of the circumstances as it fit.

[redblack66]

Here are the two facts that caught my attention:

 

 

 

If what she said was really true, you chance of recovering just got a lot better. Ever consider sitting down with her and talk to her as a friend to find out where this relationship with this OM will lead to in say 5 years from now and how this relationship is going to handle realities such as income, child care, living arrangements, etc.?

 

I think it is half the truth. She seems in love, thinks about the person etc. Unless she seems me in a better light and believes it, she will keep thinking and talking to him. I think at the moment is best not to touch this subject.

If I had a relation of this sort, I feel I could have been much stronger,

not that I want to be. I understand her, as much as it hurts.

Saying that, when you get in love there are chemical changes in your brain, which are dangerous. I hope this whole thing does not develop.

She told me he is not a competition, as he is so far away.

 

Is that some type of admission of fault on her part? If the answer is "yes," ask yourself if you're willing to forgive her. It seems that your answer is yes based on your last 5 or 6 posts above. At the sametime, also ask her to forgive you for X, Y, Z that you have done or haven't done in the past few years.

I really don't know. I do not know if I can forgive and forget well.

I will try.

 

Based on what you've stated, it seems that your W is the sensitive type. If so, talk to her not in an accusory way, but rather express to her that you were hurt deeply (as you've stated, more than ever in your life) and that you're willing to work on forgivenss and improvement on your part.

 

I said this indirectly. I said that my heart is broken into pieces.

I said that forgiveness takes maturity, strength, and time. I am mature enough, believe have the strength, and with litle time I will

be OK. However this was a general statement, but she is bright

enough to figure out what I meant. I will be more explicit.

[redblack66]

But that's not true, is it?

Because I get the feeling that you very much WOULD like to forgive her. If she doesn't know that... don't you think it'd be a good thing if she did?

 

Sure, I can make this clear. She may not believe me though in what I am saying.

[redblack66]

Has she ever seen you cry? Have you cried in front of her after your discovery of the affair? Women (especially the sensitive type) are moved deeply seeing a man cry and that can usually be a HUGE turning point. Ever considering pouring your heart out to rescue this marriage? We cannot give you answers, but merely suggestions and it's ultimately up to you to take the actions based on your own personal knowledge of the circumstances as it fit.

 

She has seen me 2-3 times in 11 years. I do not cry easily. Had a tough life. She is a VERY sensitive person. It it comes to me crying so be it. She would be very nicely affected.

[redblack66]

I just arrived home, everything is normal, but my wife is tired with the kids to have our usual talk.

She is proceeding with a separation agreement, as I heard from my lawyer. I will protect what I need to protect.

 

I am just wondering: has anybody observed any success with the 180 technique? I feel it makes sense on piece of paper, but doubt it if it works.

 

Kind of interesting. I chatted with a taxi driver, who gave me a good clue why her Australian farmer is interested in her: he may want to get piece of her parents farm, which is huge. This makes perfect sense to me, but it does not bother me at all.

I think I should tell her this hypothesis, just to ground her a bit, but I am sure she is head over hills now.

[bestadvisor]

Kind of interesting. I chatted with a taxi driver, who gave me a good clue why her Australian farmer is interested in her: he may want to get piece of her parents farm, which is huge. This makes perfect sense to me, but it does not bother me at all.

I think I should tell her this hypothesis, just to ground her a bit, but I am sure she is head over hills now.

 

That did cross my mind, but I ruled it out and did not mentioned it to you because of the 3 reasons below:

 

1) He has to be someone who is really sneaky and calculating to have a plan like this; and

2) He won't get the farm unless she divorced you and he has to legally married her; and

3) He won't get the land untill both of her parents die while they are still married, thus they would have to be married for years for him to get a piece of that farm, if ever.

 

Am I saying that it is not a possible factor at all? No, what I'm saying is that it can only be one of the many factors for his interest. The more likely scenario is that 1) he thought she was easy and took the opportunity or 2) he really loves her. It can be a combination of both, but I'm leaning toward 1).

 

What's more probable and likely for him to reach his goal, if indeed that was his goal to acquire the property, is through manipulating her parents into conveying the property to him legally. I don't think they are that naive to convey property to some guy whom their daughter is having an affair with or even after they are married, it's still very unlikely that they will convey the property to him while either of them are still alive. Possible that OM is having a plan, but did not think it through? Maybe.

[Gunny376]

I live in Alabama where the number one industry is agriculture.

 

I don't know about your neck of the woods, but down here? I don't know of anyone that would leave the farm to a daughter, let alone a SIL. Let alone to a daughter that moved off the farm to moved away 2000 miles to live a 180 of a lifestyle that she was raised?

 

Farming is a tough business and not for the weak-minded, let alone the weak-hearted. Its almost a specail calling ~ and requires a degree of dedication and committment that few have.

 

The OM? He was just a young buck out for a quick stray peice of tail. She's fooling herself if she thinks that he's going to leave Australia to come back here?

 

The 180's can and do work, but they require a certain amount of self-discipline and committment. The biggest thing they require? Is a certain amount of acceptannce? Acceptance that its over and that your going to be alright one way or the other ~ ( and you will be)

 

They work best if your not still emotionally connected to the outcome. You are ~ as is your wife. Right now? Her alligator mouth is taking more than her Jaybird azz can tote the note on. Its all and well and good to talk the talk, but can your azz walk the walk?

 

You've been gone four days, and she's "worn-out" with dealing with the children. Newsflash! Being a parent especially to young children is a 24/7/365 day a year job with damn few vacations.

 

The only "plain" she has~ the only game she has is run back home to Mommy & Daddy. That's it! And if here home town is like most farming communties there's damn little if anything in the way of jobs for women. Especially women with multiple young children. And what jobs there are? They pay minimum wage or just above it?

 

The town I live in? Is a college town. If your a woman? You've got very limited choices when it comes to jobs. Its mostly service and retail catering to the college students. And they all pay about $6.50 to $7.50 an hour.

 

What few good jobs there are for women? Well? The few there are, they've been filled for years and years, and the ones that have them? They plan on keeping them, and you're just about going to have to at least fight them to get them away from them ~ if not kill them.

 

I'd give her some rope to hang herself with ~ and let her go a round or two with Mr. Reality!