If christianity is true than god is a hyprocrit

[NocturnalRaids]

I hear about how people should forgive, and God forgives good poeple.

 

But why did he throw Adam and Eve out of Eden? He should have forgiven them right? I argue that the christian god is a hyprocrit. Fricken clown.

[disgracian]

Since the premise is false, it doesn't really matter.

 

Cheers,

D.

[Valrad]

It depends on how you look at the Bible. First off, the stories of Adam and Eve, while they are part of the Christian Bible...they are part of the Old Testament. The Christian belief in forgiveness came from out of Jesus Christ's ministry. If you notice, the Old Testament has many contradictions. It is ridden with incest, unfounded killing of innocents by God and others things that just dont make sense...God does not have to justify his actions in the Old Testament or Hebrew Bible It is really hard to explain, but your comment is unfounded....because if you were to read the Bible you would see that the later additions, ie. the New Testament, is written with a much different tone...and while there are numerous things in the Old Testament that continue to have value...The New testament somewhat serves as a means of verifying Jesus as the the one who fulfills the prophecy that there will be a Messiah. The Christian God you speak poorly of and criticize as being unforgiving is represented in a much better light in the NT. What you must also realize is this idea of forgiveness from God is based on the notion that Jesus, not only being the Messiah, is God...or at a minimum God's son (depending on which sect of Christianity you are referring to...and there are several alleged sayings of Jesus that suggest Jesus will forgive sins.

 

this notion of Jesus as God, or divine, or the Messiah, etc. could be debated forever. Read more scholarly examinations of the Bible if you cant justify theology. you might find it interesting

[Phateless]

take a class in logic, philosophy and critical thinking. that should eradicate any faith you may have left in one fell swoop.

[Ocean-Blue]

Here's my issue with Christianity and forgiveness. It has nothing to do with the OT.

 

If God is all forgiving, how come he sends souls to hell? I mean, what if, when faced with the gates of Hell, one repents and truly mourns...shouldn't that soul get another shot (purgatory)?

 

What if one was totally ignorant and didn't grow up with the right influences...and they made bad decisions in life. And then they die...and go to hell. What then? Is God going to condemn that soul to an eternity of hell because they didn't know any better?

 

I just don't know how Christians can reconcile the idea of forgiveness with the notion of an eternal hell.

[Phateless]

My problem with religion in general is that you can literally pinpoint the moment in conversation at which intelligent people switch off their critical thinking skills and start quoting religious law to you. I was born and raised in berkeley, so if there's anything I can't tolerate it's the inability to think critically.

[Ocean-Blue]

My problem with religion in general is that you can literally pinpoint the moment in conversation at which intelligent people switch off their critical thinking skills and start quoting religious law to you. I was born and raised in berkeley, so if there's anything I can't tolerate it's the inability to think critically.

 

One can think critically and still be religious. I don't think the two are necessarily independent of each other.

 

However, I agree with you about the conversation hitting a roadblock as soon as someone starts quoting a religious text. Sometimes when I ask a member of a particular religion a question, their response is, "cause the holy ____ said so." Right...

 

But not everyone is like this. My ex, who is a devout Catholic, was able to think critically about things and tried his best to answer my questions without resorting to cop outs such as the one stated above.

[Phateless]

One can think critically and still be religious. I don't think the two are necessarily independent of each other.

 

However, I agree with you about the conversation hitting a roadblock as soon as someone starts quoting a religious text. Sometimes when I ask a member of a particular religion a question, their response is, "cause the holy ____ said so." Right...

 

But not everyone is like this. My ex, who is a devout Catholic, was able to think critically about things and tried his best to answer my questions without resorting to cop outs such as the one stated above.

 

He's a rare case. I have found that in most people, religion is a substitute for the ability to think critically, and that is exactly why it scares the crap out of me. At some point, there will be a conflict between the conclusion that critical thinking would lead him to, and the religious answer. Which one will he choose? To which does he have a greater allegiance?

 

Why do you think we have these dumb-ass kids who get married at 18, just so they can f*ck, and these psycho-girls who have anal sex but not vaginal sex because they want to stay virgins. I mean.... WTF?!

 

You see where I'm going with this?

[Ocean-Blue]

He's a rare case. I have found that in most people, religion is a substitute for the ability to think critically, and that is exactly why it scares the crap out of me. At some point, there will be a conflict between the conclusion that critical thinking would lead him to, and the religious answer. Which one will he choose? To which does he have a greater allegiance?

 

Why do you think we have these dumb-ass kids who get married at 18, just so they can f*ck, and these psycho-girls who have anal sex but not vaginal sex because they want to stay virgins. I mean.... WTF?!

 

You see where I'm going with this?

 

Yes, I do. I've met more than my share of such people. I remember having a rather heated "conversation" with someone about homosexuality. He went on this diatribe about the viles of fornicating with a member of one's own sex. So I pointed out that he has watched more than his share of lesbian porn (he was a friend) and he totally flipped. Told me to shut up.

 

That's when you know the conversation is done. They either get angry or start quoting things without any sort of explanation. Now I can value a biblical quote or whatever. What irks me is that some people don't realize that a quote requires some further explanation. You need to set it up, provide context, and EXPLAIN it. They think that by merely quoting it, they are somehow making their point.

[Phateless]

Yes, I do. I've met more than my share of such people. I remember having a rather heated "conversation" with someone about homosexuality. He went on this diatribe about the viles of fornicating with a member of one's own sex. So I pointed out that he has watched more than his share of lesbian porn (he was a friend) and he totally flipped. Told me to shut up.

 

That's when you know the conversation is done. They either get angry or start quoting things without any sort of explanation. Now I can value a biblical quote or whatever. What irks me is that some people don't realize that a quote requires some further explanation. You need to set it up, provide context, and EXPLAIN it. They think that by merely quoting it, they are somehow making their point.

 

Agreed, dead-on. This is why I don't associate with those kinds of people... They're usually not worth the trouble. The kind of person that buys that far into that stuff is a feeble mind and a hypocrite if you ask me. Your friend's reaction proves it.

 

You want an idea for some entertainment? Tell him that homosexuality occurs in the same percentages in nature as in humanity. Did you know that? You'll probably see his head explode.

[Ocean-Blue]

Agreed, dead-on. This is why I don't associate with those kinds of people... They're usually not worth the trouble. The kind of person that buys that far into that stuff is a feeble mind and a hypocrite if you ask me. Your friend's reaction proves it.

 

You want an idea for some entertainment? Tell him that homosexuality occurs in the same percentages in nature as in humanity. Did you know that? You'll probably see his head explode.

 

Yeah, I've heard some birds are lesbians. As are some lizards...I think... He was an idiot that way. But I certainly made my point. He had to tell my ex, "yo man, tell your girl to shut up".

[Phateless]

Yeah, I've heard some birds are lesbians. As are some lizards...I think... He was an idiot that way. But I certainly made my point. He had to tell my ex, "yo man, tell your girl to shut up".

 

Like I said, I'm born and raised in Berkeley, CA, so I'm spoiled when it comes to intelligent conversation.

[Ocean-Blue]

Haha, what a douchebag. Like I said, I'm born and raised in Berkeley, CA, so I'm spoiled when it comes to intelligent conversation.

 

Right. Generalize much?

[Phateless]

Right. Generalize much?

 

And what am I generalizing about? I'm merely speaking from my own experiences, and yes, I always allows for the difference.

[Ocean-Blue]

And what am I generalizing about? I'm merely speaking from my own experiences, and yes, I always allows for the difference.

 

We're getting off topic. Intelligent people come from all over the place. I can't point to one specific region and state with certainty that a majority of that population is intelligent (or can engage in sincere debate). But anyway... Back to the OP's post.

 

It's unfortunate that some people don't back up their beliefs with actual facts or thoughtful analysis. I really appreciate those who are religious but also able to be OBJECTIVE about their beliefs. But they are quite rare (in my experience anyway).

[lonelybird]

If your kids made a mistake, do you ground them, or do something let them know what they do is wrong, and they should take responsibility for their acts?

 

or do you say "do whatever you want, I will forgive you"? if you do so, probably your kids will grow up terribly lack of sense what is right what is wrong. we have free will, but sadly not everytime we choose to do is always right, if be honest, most time we choose wrong to suit our selfish needs

 

To God, we are little kids, lack of understanding, his way of educating us is the world, if we do wrong, we receive bad consequences, but he doesn't want to see us do wrong, so he gave us a clue: his son to be an perfect example for us, Bible and his Holy Spirit to teach us how to be a good kid

[Phateless]

We're getting off topic. Intelligent people come from all over the place. I can't point to one specific region and state with certainty that a majority of that population is intelligent (or can engage in sincere debate). But anyway... Back to the OP's post.

 

It's unfortunate that some people don't back up their beliefs with actual facts or thoughtful analysis. I really appreciate those who are religious but also able to be OBJECTIVE about their beliefs. But they are quite rare (in my experience anyway).

 

Actually, there's a field of study called demographics that proves otherwise... Different areas have different levels of intelligence, education, and religious bias. There are more Jews (I am a Jew) in NY than in many other places, for example. Berkeley is a more liberal place as well as the home of one of the more competitive universities in the nation, and is thus more likely to have more intelligent people around than other places. There is a town called Arroyo Grande near where I live that happens to have the most churches per capita in the nation.

 

I am a huge advocate for seeing past your own generalizations, and I never hold anyone to mine, but everyone makes them and they are not inaccurate by definition any more than they are accurate by definition.

 

Correlation does not represent causation.

 

I agree with you that there are religious people who can be objective about it, and I lived with one for two years. I was actually very impressed with his own willingness to see the pitfalls of where religious thinking comes into play, but it requires you to make choices at times over when to be religious and when to just plain think about it. I'm glad I don't have to make that choice. He was very cool and we had some extremely interesting discussion about what he believes vs. what he practices and what he thinks vs. what the bible says.

 

edit - what do you mean by being objective about religious beliefs? Being objective requires critical thinking and a lot of religious beliefs directly defy critical thinking. Being objective means holding religious beliefs to the same standard of logic as anything else... I find that religious beliefs often cannot measure up.

[Phateless]

If your kids made a mistake, do you ground them, or do something let them know what they do is wrong, and they should take responsibility for their acts?

 

or do you say "do whatever you want, I will forgive you"? if you do so, probably your kids will grow up terribly lack of sense what is right what is wrong. we have free will, but sadly not everytime we choose to do is always right, if be honest, most time we choose wrong to suit our selfish needs

 

To God, we are little kids, lack of understanding, his way of educating us is the world, if we do wrong, we receive bad consequences, but he doesn't want to see us do wrong, so he gave us a clue: his son to be an perfect example for us, Bible and his Holy Spirit to teach us how to be a good kid

 

I agree. When someone screws up, you tell them what they did was wrong and why, and also what the correct thing to do instead would be. My own sense or morality has always been based on empathy, nothing else. How would I feel if someone did the same thing to me? Ever since I was a kid, I always wanted to know WHY for everything. I was a difficult child, lol.

[Ocean-Blue]

If your kids made a mistake, do you ground them, or do something let them know what they do is wrong, and they should take responsibility for their acts?

 

or do you say "do whatever you want, I will forgive you"? if you do so, probably your kids will grow up terribly lack of sense what is right what is wrong. we have free will, but sadly not everytime we choose to do is always right, if be honest, most time we choose wrong to suit our selfish needs

 

To God, we are little kids, lack of understanding, his way of educating us is the world, if we do wrong, we receive bad consequences, but he doesn't want to see us do wrong, so he gave us a clue: his son to be an perfect example for us, Bible and his Holy Spirit to teach us how to be a good kid

 

Let me take your analogy one step further...

 

Little Johnny is caught with his pants down. He is jacking off in the backyard while the neighbour's son (little Tommy) is watching. Now Daddy happens to walk in on this fun little event. Daddy admonishes Johnny for his horrible behaviour and asks him to never do it again. Little Johnny continues with his sick little, exhibitionist ways...well into adulthood. Father is still in his life, trying to give LJ some advice and forgivness. LJ, because he's an ignorant ass, doesn't listen and continues. Eventually these two come to an understanding (either the father accepts his son for the pervert that he is, or LJ grows up and leaves his base ways behind).

 

With God and hell, LJ is sent there for ETERNITY by father. What the hell kind of forgiveness is that?

 

Your analogy is weak frankly. You cannot compare a parent's relationship with their child to that of God and humans. While humans have a "limit" (because we are flawed) God does not. Christians tout their God as being all forgiving. No parents claims to be all forgiving. They hold grudges, they get mad at their kids when the f' up...it's a part of being human!

 

I hope I made sense.

 

EDIT: I'm assuming you responded to my post about hell and forgiveness...

[Ocean-Blue]

Actually, there's a field of study called demographics that proves otherwise... Different areas have different levels of intelligence, education, and religious bias. There are more Jews (I am a Jew) in NY than in many other places, for example. Berkeley is a more liberal place as well as the home of one of the more competitive universities in the nation, and is thus more likely to have more intelligent people around than other places. There is a town called Arroyo Grande near where I live that happens to have the most churches per capita in the nation.

 

I am a huge advocate for seeing past your own generalizations, and I never hold anyone to mine, but everyone makes them and they are not inaccurate by definition any more than they are accurate by definition.

 

Correlation does not represent causation.

 

I agree with you that there are religious people who can be objective about it, and I lived with one for two years. I was actually very impressed with his own willingness to see the pitfalls of where religious thinking comes into play, but it requires you to make choices at times over when to be religious and when to just plain think about it. I'm glad I don't have to make that choice. He was very cool and we had some extremely interesting discussion about what he believes vs. what he practices and what he thinks vs. what the bible says.

 

edit - what do you mean by being objective about religious beliefs? Being objective requires critical thinking and a lot of religious beliefs directly defy critical thinking. Being objective means holding religious beliefs to the same standard of logic as anything else... I find that religious beliefs often cannot measure up.

 

I'm not familiar with demographics...so I shall refrain from commenting on that.

 

As for my comment on objectivity... I was saying that I respect those who are open to discussing their beliefs in an objective manner (that is, basing it on something more than their personal views or some text that they've read). There are some religious beliefs that "measure up"...at least to me. Really, we all have our own lens through which we view the world. My only qualm is when people hide behind archaic words and don't bother to ask questions or explain. Now that is irritating!

[Phateless]

I'm not familiar with demographics...so I shall refrain from commenting on that.

 

As for my comment on objectivity... I was saying that I respect those who are open to discussing their beliefs in an objective manner (that is, basing it on something more than their personal views or some text that they've read). There are some religious beliefs that "measure up"...at least to me. Really, we all have our own lens through which we view the world. My only qualm is when people hide behind archaic words and don't bother to ask questions or explain. Now that is irritating!

 

I agree. The problem is that when you discuss religious beliefs in an objective manner, some of them don't make sense, and that's where the conversation can get tense. People may feel like I'm attacking their religioius views, simply because I am asking clarifying questions. Sometimes the only answer is "faith".

 

The fun part here is that one of the most critical thinkers I know is religious. She's my roommate, she's a teacher, and she is INCREDIBLY intelligent and quick-witted. She's a huge smart-ass and fun to hang out with, because she can make me feel stupid by asking qualifying questions to follow up some of the things I say. She's good....

[Ocean-Blue]

I agree. The problem is that when you discuss religious beliefs in an objective manner, some of them don't make sense, and that's where the conversation can get tense. People may feel like I'm attacking their religioius views, simply because I am asking clarifying questions. Sometimes the only answer is "faith".

 

The fun part here is that one of the most critical thinkers I know is religious. She's my roommate, she's a teacher, and she is INCREDIBLY intelligent and quick-witted. She's a huge smart-ass and fun to hang out with, because she can make me feel stupid by asking qualifying questions to follow up some of the things I say. She's good....

 

Sometimes, when I have such discussions with someone, the conversation comes to a standstill. I ask them something that they simply cannot answer without resorting to some "feeling" or intangible sentiment - and some people, rather than actually admit to this, go on with full force quoting stuff and making bogus arguments.

 

At this point, they can either continue with some pseudo truth OR they can woman up and say "hey look, I don't know how to answer that, all I know is that I believe that or feel that". That to me is cool. Fine, so you try to reason it as best you can and at the end you tell me you just feel that way or whatever. So long as someone is honest about where they are coming from, I don't care. I mean, it's THEIR belief after all.

[Phateless]

Sometimes, when I have such discussions with someone, the conversation comes to a standstill. I ask them something that they simply cannot answer without resorting to some "feeling" or intangible sentiment - and some people, rather than actually admit to this, go on with full force quoting stuff and making bogus arguments.

 

At this point, they can either continue with some pseudo truth OR they can woman up and say "hey look, I don't know how to answer that, all I know is that I believe that or feel that". That to me is cool. Fine, so you try to reason it as best you can and at the end you tell me you just feel that way or whatever. So long as someone is honest about where they are coming from, I don't care. I mean, it's THEIR belief after all.

 

That's what I've been saying... that standstill to me represents that critical thinking and religion are incompatible. I agree that it's cool when people admit that all they have is a feeling or belief, but they do that because they realize that your question has illustrated the hole in their belief. They believe something, and when asked to think about WHY they believe that, they have no answer, they just do. That's not critical thinking, that's honesty. Critical thinking tells them that their belief is incorrect and that's where the conversation stops. If they applied logic to their belief, logic would prove it to be untrue...

 

Socrates' definition of knowledge -

 

True knowledge emerges through dialogue and SYSTEMATIC QUESTIONING for the ABANDONMENT of UNCRITICAL CLAIMS TO KNOWLEDGE.

 

You see what I'm saying? Yes, some religioius people are open-minded and honest about the difference between their beliefs and critical thinking, but when it comes down to it, critical thinking will disprove their beliefs, and that's why the conversation comes to a standstill. And that's precisely why I don't push the conversation that far, because one of a few things will happen.

 

-i'll disprove their beliefs and their beliefs will be shattered

-they'll become furious because i threaten their beliefs and we argue

-the conversation will stop and they'll have no answer for the valid question i asked

 

no matter what happens, it makes things tense, so i just avoid these conversations with people. i don't want to attempt to talk anyone out of their religion through logic. most people will refuse to come along anyway so why bother?

[Ocean-Blue]

That's what I've been saying... that standstill to me represents that critical thinking and religion are incompatible. I agree that it's cool when people admit that all they have is a feeling or belief, but they do that because they realize that your question has illustrated the hole in their belief. They believe something, and when asked to think about WHY they believe that, they have no answer, they just do. That's not critical thinking, that's honesty. Critical thinking tells them that their belief is incorrect and that's where the conversation stops. If they applied logic to their belief, logic would prove it to be untrue...

 

Socrates' definition of knowledge -

 

True knowledge emerges through dialogue and SYSTEMATIC QUESTIONING for the ABANDONMENT of UNCRITICAL CLAIMS TO KNOWLEDGE.

 

You see what I'm saying? Yes, some religioius people are open-minded and honest about the difference between their beliefs and critical thinking, but when it comes down to it, critical thinking will disprove their beliefs, and that's why the conversation comes to a standstill. And that's precisely why I don't push the conversation that far, because one of a few things will happen.

 

-i'll disprove their beliefs and their beliefs will be shattered

-they'll become furious because i threaten their beliefs and we argue

-the conversation will stop and they'll have no answer for the valid question i asked

 

no matter what happens, it makes things tense, so i just avoid these conversations with people. i don't want to attempt to talk anyone out of their religion through logic. most people will refuse to come along anyway so why bother?

 

I see what you're saying. Too often, I've had such conversations with people (not so much now...since breaking up with the ex). But again, the ex himself was quite logical. I was often baffled by his ability to think critically about his religion - I admire the guy for that. But such people are rare. Most people are too intellectually lazy to sit down and really get at the meat of their beliefs...

[Phateless]

I see what you're saying. Too often, I've had such conversations with people (not so much now...since breaking up with the ex). But again, the ex himself was quite logical. I was often baffled by his ability to think critically about his religion - I admire the guy for that. But such people are rare. Most people are too intellectually lazy to sit down and really get at the meat of their beliefs...

 

Exactly. And that's the thing, is that if you apply logic and critical thinking to religion, there's really nothing left...