If christianity is true than god is a hyprocrit

[Geishawhelk]

The deniers don't offering anything because they have nothing to offer. They don't even offer the truth.

Maybe they are bitter.

 

Actually, Buddhism offers a very tangible, logical, simple Truth, and one that nobody on this board has actually ever been able to deny, negate, contradict, argue against or counter-act.

 

And no, I am certainly not bitter. Amused, yes....Bitter no....

 

 

But maybe I'm just being picky!!

[Moai]

I didn't realize this conversation was going to become all about me and my opinion.

 

Which you chose to express. Beyond that, there are many, many others who share your opinion, and since it is your opinion I thought you might be able to answer questions about it.

 

Nevertheless, spiritual beliefs vary from person to person even within the same religion so I doubt anything I say will convince you other than fuel for your argument against mine.

 

In the West this is true, but not so much in other places. Moreover, if one asserts that he or she is a Christian that implies certain basic beliefs that all of them share. Like Jesus being the Messiah, for example.

 

Yes, I am aware that the "book" was editted. Were you expecting me to say "I didn't know that" as if you were enlightening me in some way?

 

Not at all. I was just curious as to what led you to trust the men who edited the Bible--seeing as how you could never have met them and their understanding of the world was much less advanced than your own.

 

I am not sure that I follow you about your comment about the UFOs and astrology witnesses. What exactly was the point?

 

Since the things I listed have witnesses, people who believe in those things do not have blind faith either, then.

 

Did I say that other religions didn't have witnesses? If that is your claim, you are moving the goal post. I was talking about blind faith. It is you who are trying to change the topic to "other beliefs" when I said no such thing.

 

No, I didn't. I was merely pointing out that "witnesses" have little to do with the veracity of a claim. Separating "blind" faith from the kind of faith that has "witnesses" is essentially meaningless.

 

And then you are asking me to speculate about why other peoples dreams don't come true? Very bad question.

 

That isn't what I was asking you at all. I was simply pointing out that many people have all sorts of visions about success, love, family, etc. that don't come true. These, of course, are not kept track of. This is fallacious thinking referred to as "selective thinking." That's it. My question had nothing to do with you speculating about dreams coming true.

 

How would I know why one person's dreams come true versus another person? I can't and won't even try to answer that. But since science can explain "everything" according to you, certainly YOU must know why??!!

 

Easy. Probability.

 

Is English your second language?

[Moose]

Your attitude suggests that not everybody will have to have their empathy scraped clean upon entering Heaven, lest they spare a thought for those who didn't make it.

Why do you even care since you don't believe??? That makes no sense to me whatsoever......unless there is Truth in what I say?? You're wrong about my attitude, I'm not happy at all that many will perish, the fact remains that that is what is going to happen. God won't even allow us to witness it because it'll be too horrible to watch......

It gives me no end of comfort and satisfaction that your most sincerely held beliefs are nothing more than lame, malevolent fiction.

Well, it's not my job to make you comfortable or to make you satisfied, thank you.

 

I can't help that you think my belief is fiction. I can't help that people have suffered maliciously because of my belief.

 

It would be a total lie if I told you no one is going to suffer here in this life as well as eternally according to my belief.

 

But since you're not a believer, and certainly not a follower, why are you losing sleep over a little smilie icon??

Evidence deals with real data that can be tested, verified or observed...

I have all of these. I have proof, I have data, that can be verified, observed and even held in your hands if so inclined.....

Belief's are not supported by anything but a gut feeling at best

You're wrong, and I'm not saying that as just my opinion. That is FACT.

 

Moai's post right after yours is pretty good....at least he's not trying to beat us or me down, he's causing us to think about it and in turn only strengthens my faith.

 

I'll answer Moai next.....but I have some catching up to do at the office, but man, do I have a lot to contribute to his post.....as always.....and the answers will back up what I posted as fact.......

[NoIDidn't]

In the West this is true, but not so much in other places. Moreover, if one asserts that he or she is a Christian that implies certain basic beliefs that all of them share. Like Jesus being the Messiah, for example.

 

Yes, I do believe that Christ is the Messiah. Any others you wish to bring up?

 

Not at all. I was just curious as to what led you to trust the men who edited the Bible--seeing as how you could never have met them and their understanding of the world was much less advanced than your own.

 

My trust is not in the words of the men. The bible purports itself as the inspired Word of God. And as such, the words are not treated as those of a man, but of God. I can understand that there are many who choose not to believe that, and I don't begrudge them that right. Other religious books have the same claim. So I can understand the doubts it inspires in non-believers. But their disbelief is independent of my belief. Respected or not.

 

Since the things I listed have witnesses, people who believe in those things do not have blind faith either, then.

 

No, I didn't. I was merely pointing out that "witnesses" have little to do with the veracity of a claim. Separating "blind" faith from the kind of faith that has "witnesses" is essentially meaningless.

 

See, you still lost me on this, because it was never an issue that I brought up. There is a huge difference between "blind" faith and a faith that has witnesses. Just as there is a difference between an educated and calculated guess vs just pulling a guess out of the air. In both instances there is a guess/faith, but only one option considers "proof" or "evidence".

 

Astrology has been followed for centuries. It is said to be the way that the wise men found Jesus after his birth. UFOs have been mentioned for centuries too. I have no issue with people "believing" in them. It neither helps nor hurts my faith. I am not sure why you brought them up as if I would start foaming at the mouth or something.

 

 

That isn't what I was asking you at all. I was simply pointing out that many people have all sorts of visions about success, love, family, etc. that don't come true. These, of course, are not kept track of. This is fallacious thinking referred to as "selective thinking." That's it. My question had nothing to do with you speculating about dreams coming true.

 

Nice backtrack. That is what you were asking. And you believe the answer to everything is "probability"? I have a degree in Mathematics and did quite well in Prob/Stats. And no, it doesn't answer everything. And in most cases, the margin of error is too great for it to even be considered accurate.

 

How exactly do you propose to use probability to give an accurate answer as to why some have their dreams come true or not? What will your answer be when your "educated" guess turns out wrong? Will you then blame it on the margin of error? How will you prove that the outcome fell within your margin of error when we are measuring the intangible of dreams?

 

Is English your second language?

Cute. What was the point of this retort? Is the ability to stay on topic alien to you? You attempted to change all the goalposts with your questions. Try again.

 

ETA: Do I come across as believing that demons or spirits cause disease? Really? Its really hard speaking about the whys of my faith when there are those that cling to the ignorance that the founders of the faith may have lived in. Are you saying that because I am a Christian, or of any faith, that I am taught to believe what has already been proven not be the case just because that was the belief of many around the time that my religion was founded?

[Green]

So boring, every one in this thread is...

[JamesM]

So boring, every one in this thread is...

 

 

Hmmmm...two questions. Why did you feel this would add to the discussion? And why are you reading the thread?

 

I for one find the discussion enlightening and informative, so I keep reading.

[Green]

you already know the answer

[Moai]

Yes' date=' I do believe that Christ is the Messiah. Any others you wish to bring up?[/quote']

 

The point of which all Christians believe that, so such a belief really isn't all that personal.

 

My trust is not in the words of the men. The bible purports itself as the inspired Word of God.

 

So you say, but you have obviously chosen one "Word of God" over another. How did you reach your conclusion that your book is the correct one, and all the others false?

 

And as such, the words are not treated as those of a man, but of God. I can understand that there are many who choose not to believe that, and I don't begrudge them that right. Other religious books have the same claim. So I can understand the doubts it inspires in non-believers. But their disbelief is independent of my belief. Respected or not.

 

Why should your belief be respected in particular? What is so special about it?

 

See, you still lost me on this, because it was never an issue that I brought up. There is a huge difference between "blind" faith and a faith that has witnesses.

 

That is precisely the issue. Your claim that a belief that has witnesses is somehow more valid--or less "blind"--is fallacious, as one must have faith in the witnesses. You obviously take the word of Christian witnesses over the claims of Muslim witnesses. Based on what exactly? It seems to me it is the a priori idea that Christian witnesses are to be believed simply because they confirm what you wish to be true--which is why having witnesses doesn''t mean your faith isn't blind.

 

Just as there is a difference between an educated and calculated guess vs just pulling a guess out of the air. In both instances there is a guess/faith, but only one option considers "proof" or "evidence".

 

Astrology has been followed for centuries. It is said to be the way that the wise men found Jesus after his birth.

 

Doesn't make it true. In fact, astrology is demonstrably false.

 

UFOs have been mentioned for centuries too. I have no issue with people "believing" in them. It neither helps nor hurts my faith. I am not sure why you brought them up as if I would start foaming at the mouth or something.

 

I brought them up because people believe in those things the exact same way you believe in Jesus. People who believe in Bigfoot, for example, take the word of "witnesses" to be evidence of its existence. They have faith that these "witnesses" are not deluded, mistaken, or lying.

 

Nice backtrack. That is what you were asking.

 

No, it wasn't. I could certainly ask that, and get an answer like "punishment/reward for sinful or righteous behavior" or somesuch, but that is beside the point. You brought the dreams of those people as evidence of something, which it is not--beyond coincidence. I am simply pointing out that it is coincidence that their dreams happened to come true, while the vast majority of dreams--even theirs--do not.

 

And you believe the answer to everything is "probability"?

 

No, but it is the answer as to why their dreams came true and the dreams of others do not (which you did ask ME).

 

I have a degree in Mathematics and did quite well in Prob/Stats. And no, it doesn't answer everything. And in most cases, the margin of error is too great for it to even be considered accurate.

 

Congratulations on your degree, but it doesn't seem to be helping you in deciphering simple English, or determining what probability actually is.

 

Let's take a more common "dream": Let's say 100 people get out of bed and say, "I am going to have sex today." Of those, 66 actually do have sex. Does that mean that something special happened, that they have gifts of prophecy, or that they are rewarded somehow? No, it just means that those particular individuals happened to be part of the 66% of adults who have sex on any given day.

 

How exactly do you propose to use probability to give an accurate answer as to why some have their dreams come true or not?

 

Easy. Take the number of people who have the dream ("x") and then find the number of people who had the dream come true ("y"). The more common the result, the greater the chance of the dream coming true. Dreams coming true is not rare, but most people forget the dreams that don't come true and focus on the dreams that do. That is what selective thinking is all about.

 

What will your answer be when your "educated" guess turns out wrong?

 

Guessing has nothing to do with it.

 

Will you then blame it on the margin of error?

 

There is no margin of error. The probability of buying a winning lottery ticket is astronomically large, yet people buy winning lottery tickets all the time.

 

How will you prove that the outcome fell within your margin of error when we are measuring the intangible of dreams?

 

Dreams are not intangible in this sense. They either come true or they do not--if they are that sort of dream, of course. There are lots of kinds of dreams.

 

Cute. What was the point of this retort? Is the ability to stay on topic alien to you? You attempted to change all the goalposts with your questions. Try again.

 

You seem to have difficulty following a simple rhetorical proof, that is why I asked. You accuse me of "moving the goalposts" and not staying on topic, yet I have done neither.

 

ETA: Do I come across as believing that demons or spirits cause disease? Really?

 

Why not? Your book says that is so. How am I to determine which parts of the book you believe and which you don't?

 

Its really hard speaking about the whys of my faith when there are those that cling to the ignorance that the founders of the faith may have lived in. Are you saying that because I am a Christian, or of any faith, that I am taught to believe what has already been proven not be the case just because that was the belief of many around the time that my religion was founded?

 

It is possible. You are aware of Creationists, right? You made the assertion that you believe that the Bible is the Word of God, which would lead me to believe that you believe all of it to be true. Now that you say you don't, where does the truth start and stop? How do you make that decision?

[disgracian]

Why do you even care since you don't believe???

It bothers me that people like you exist.

You're wrong about my attitude, I'm not happy at all that many will perish

I am right about your attitude. Your response to billions of people entering into eternal suffering was a tongue-poking smiley. It's obvious that you couldn't care less because you think you'll be rewarded in death for latching onto the right dogma in life.

 

Nothing you say in backtracking rings even remotely true. If you actually did think the idea of people going to Hell was horrible, then you would have expressed some degree of sadness...not mirth.

But since you're not a believer, and certainly not a follower, why are you losing sleep over a little smilie icon??

I'm not losing sleep, so please dispense with the hyperbole. I simply thought it was an incredibly tasteless gesture that shows either heartless malice or just an autistic lack of compassion.

 

Cheers,

D.

[NoIDidn't]

The point of which all Christians believe that, so such a belief really isn't all that personal.

 

Unfortunately, I don't have the answers you seek and you seem hellbent on dissecting my beliefs based on your on philosophy and it just doesn't work that way.

 

This all started with my explanation of what I thought of blind faith. If you believe that you have actually stayed on topic when you have changed the subject to that of astrology, the "word of God", and the like, then it is you that cannot understand simple English. A good discussion doesn't have as many tangents as you have followed.

 

I appreciate the banter, but I am done hashing this out with you.

 

Enjoy your evening.

 

No....

[Moose]

It bothers me that people like you exist.

Well, there's nothing you can do about it. Tell you what, if it's that personal, I'll PM you my home address if you're so inclined to do try and do something about me. Maybe that'll make you feel better?

I am right about your attitude. Your response to billions of people entering into eternal suffering was a tongue-poking smiley.

I explained that already. You're refusing to accept it. (a familiar pattern with you).

I simply thought it was an incredibly tasteless gesture that shows either heartless malice or just an autistic lack of compassion.

And who's kettle is black??

[disgracian]

I believe it is yours. I don't go around making fun of people who I think are about to suffer forever.

 

Oh wait, that's not what it was. It was in reference to making a point (three times over). Which point was that again? You didn't answer that the first time I asked.

 

Cheers,

D.

[Rooster_DAR]

This topic just shows how much of a struggle there is between religion and modern evolutionary science and gives you and idea about how much longer it's going to last.

 

I keep hearing people say they have have facts and proof of God's existence, yet it's not coming forth.

 

• We see religion putting earth at the center of the universe = wrong

• We see the church condemning the scientists for discovering we are not alone in the universe = wrong

• We see the church condemning these scientist for their heretical positions = wrong

• We see religion claiming the earth is only a few thousand years old = wrong

......................and the list goes on.

 

How many more wrongs do you need to see before you even consider other possibilities?

[disgracian]

They don't even see those wrongs, for the large part.

 

We are at the centre of the universe, if not physically then at least metaphorically so. God's plan is all about us and the rest of the universe is just there for decoration.

 

Many quite firmly believe that the earth is only a few thousand years old, and that we can trace everybody's geneology back to Adam & Eve.

 

Scientists are only right when they agree with the Bible.

 

Such is how it is for all too many of the adult population of this planet. Slowly but surely it continues to convince me daily that we are a failed experiment, destined for greatness but never making it.

 

Cheers,

D.

[Yosef]

We're still a great civilization, we've reached greatness, we just haven't reached "perfection" yet.

 

I think that some people need to be reminded that christ is one of the big reasons so many people are doing so much charity today. He's our inspiration to do good for the world and for the people who live among it. Starving people in africa are, in large part by religious parties such as Christianity, receiving food and supplies because we we're inspired to do so, as well as told to do so. Without God in our lives, im sure there would be MUCH less people working their azzez off on the other side of the world, in our own country, and in other countries trying to make this world a better place for everyone.

 

I realize that it's not the only reason, but im stating again that it's one of the big reasons.

[Enema]

I have all of these. I have proof, I have data, that can be verified, observed and even held in your hands if so inclined.....

 

That is FACT.

 

the answers will back up what I posted as fact.......

 

More hollow assertions with nothing to back them up... story of your life.

 

I'm sure we don't need to remind you that the Bible is not evidence of anything except mans gullibility.

[Green]

does any one on this thread believe they are the christian god and if so are they a hypocrat???

[Yosef]

does any one on this thread believe they are the christian god and if so are they a hypocrat???

 

Not exactly sure what you're asking there, but if anyone believes they're God, they're idiots. Two, we're born from God's image, not God himself.

[Moose]

Oh wait, that's not what it was. It was in reference to making a point (three times over). Which point was that again? You didn't answer that the first time I asked.

I've just spent about about 8 minutes trying to figure out what your original question was. If it's not too much trouble, (and you can even recant it if need be) I'll be happy to answer it.....

[Moose]

This topic just shows how much of a struggle there is between religion and modern evolutionary science and gives you and idea about how much longer it's going to last.

I know exactly how long it'll last. When Christ returns. Simple isn't it? Even though I don't know the exact date and time, that very moment, we'll all see this whole puzzle put together.

 

The rest of your post is rudimentary to me, and from seeing your other posts, in other threads, I don't think you're geniune enough to even waste answering your other bullet points.

[Moose]

They don't even see those wrongs, for the large part.

So even you admit that these points aren't the consensus of all believers. That's a start.

We are at the centre of the universe, if not physically then at least metaphorically so.

Unless you believe this, you should be clear and put these kind of statements in parenthesis. You're confusing even me.

 

But to clarify, God is the center of the universe, if it is in fact that you want to be accurate.

Many quite firmly believe that the earth is only a few thousand years old, and that we can trace everybody's geneology back to Adam & Eve.

Again, you're agreeing with even myself that it's impossible to trace back that far without more evidence.

 

So is that fact about, "evolution"......show me a skeleton, "or skeletons", that literally jumped from one species to another.......can't be done.

Scientists are only right when they agree with the Bible.

According to whom? Not to me. And not to most other Christians. What you said here is an absolute contradiction to what God offers us humans to use our God given brains to keep ourselves alive.

Such is how it is for all too many of the adult population of this planet.

Societal norm is to blame. Not the Word of God.

Slowly but surely it continues to convince me daily that we are a failed experiment, destined for greatness but never making it.

SO.....God so loved the world, that He gave His only Begotten Son, so that whomsoever believes in Him, shall not perish, BUT have everlasting life!

 

Tell me, what is more important? This vapor of life as we know it? Or having eternal life?

[Moose]

We're still a great civilization, we've reached greatness, we just haven't reached "perfection" yet.

We never will reach perfection. From here, it'll be a huge decline and plunge fast. Prepare for it.

[Moose]

More hollow assertions with nothing to back them up... story of your life.

Well,...unless I can literally plop myself, my family, and quite literally the world in your hands, tough luck buddy. This is the internet. I'll extend my invitation for you to show up at my own house and allow me to demonsrate what I hold as Truth.

I'm sure we don't need to remind you that the Bible is not evidence of anything except mans gullibility.

False. And that's how I view your, (and whomever you claim as, "we") statement.

 

You and, "we" hold no providence over me at all, God does.

[Moose]

does any one on this thread believe they are the christian god and if so are they a hypocrat???

Why you even post here is beyond me, but, Yosef is correct;

if anyone believes they're God, they're idiots

"idiots" is not a terrible term. It just means un-educated. Nothing wrong with that....

[Enema]

So is that fact about, "evolution"......show me a skeleton, "or skeletons", that literally jumped from one species to another

 

In your mind, what exactly would such a skeleton look like?

 

We have hundreds of transitional fossils, but somehow I think you believe evolution turns a dog into a cat in one jump.