ignorance begets confidence...

[boshemia]

I stumbled across an article recently and it has me intrigued.

 

The article discusses the Dunning-Kruger effect, a phenomenon where, as Charles Darwin put it, "ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge".

 

The theory behind it went something like this. Incompetent people tend to overestimate their own skill levels, fail to recognize the depths of their incompetency, and at the same time fail to recognize genuine skill in others.

 

The study focused on testing areas of humor, grammar, and logic. While these people estimated their test performance to be in the 62nd percentile, but their test scores placed them in the 12th percentile.

 

------

 

I know these people, I guess we all do.

 

There are several people I have come across in writing communities who constantly feel a need to tell people what excellent writers they are, while criticizing everyone else’s ability. It’s always been kind of a joke that anyone who feels a need to brag on their own skills never seems to notice that they are the only ones doing so.

 

It’s not just in the writing circles, I know them in my daily life as well. Someone who professes to be an expert in everything, no matter what the subject they have done it better than anyone else.

 

So two questions for everyone here to ponder...

 

First, how do you know if you are one of these people? I do believe I have above average writing skills or I wouldn’t keep doing it... even though I don’t share it with many people, and rarely under my own name.

 

I can’t help but wonder how can you really tell if you are any good at the things you think you are good at?

 

Second... does anyone else know these kinds of people? Tell me about them!

 

Here’s the article if anyone wants the whole scoop...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect

[Yosef]

I've always believed this theory.

 

I've also seen people like these over the internet and on forums. They drive me insane sometimes because I have to write back to them about something called "egotism" and they tend to blow it off. I'll tell you, they're in an abundance.

 

First, how do you know if you are one of these people? I do believe I have above average writing skills or I wouldn’t keep doing it... even though I don’t share it with many people, and rarely under my own name.

 

I went through a phase where I thought I was egotistic, but everyone says I wasn't and gave me all these reasons why. I have high respect for everybody's abilities and disrespect for my own, often considering myself lower than everyone else, even though everyone else tells me the opposite.

[Leoni]

What is literary expertise? More and bigger words to communicate or less verbiage to get to the same end result?

[monkey00]

I think to an extent, certain people are ignorant in their own ways. Not everyone really wants to compromise themselves in what they believe to be a lower position.

 

Though for those people, it is harder for them to grow as a person. The more open-minded someone is, the more flexible they are to adapting in situations and personal growth.

[boshemia]

I guess the simple thought behind my post was... How do you know where the line is between a healthy self-esteem and an overinflated ego?

 

Would it be a willingness to listen to and learn from others perhaps? That would actually solve most of the problem with regard to people I have come across. They don't have to agree with me by any means... but a willingness to hear another person out and at least consider their point of view goes a long way.

 

 

 

 

Have you ever noticed that psychology has a way of driving you crazy???

 

Whoa, no self esteem, I am scum... getting better... getting better... I like myself... I believe in myself... whoops, I'm an egotistical jerk.

 

So any personal stories???

[someone2]

Excellent post, boshemia. I love it when people start focusing on one specific aspect of human personality and try to analyze it. This is the way to make ourselves better people... by focusing on one small thing at a time and improve it.

 

Your questions created a dilemma in me though. If we depend on other people opinions to build our self confidence, we will end up being needy, clingy people with no sense of self respect coming from inside.

If our self esteen comes purely from inside, we will end up being totally delusional. I guess the answer is a combination of the two, but I have no idea how!

 

Since this is a site about interpersonal relations, here is a story that happened yesterday at a bar...

 

Friend of mine: See that girl over there. There is no way you would have the courage to go and talk to her

Me: Well, and why is that?

Friend: She would immediately cut you off, dude. You just can't do it

Me (annoyed): Let's see

I went to her, talked to her. We obviously hit it off, I return with her phone number on my phone.

Friend (obviously envious): That was good

Me: Thanks

Friend: You have obviously improved a lot. You came a long way over the past few years from the loser nerd you were. I still remember those days when you were a loser with no self esteem, and you dressed so bad. You are improving

Me: Umm.. okay

Friend (suddenly happy): You know what you are like now? You are like me 3 years ago, when I used to go and talk to girls and get their numbers. I have moved along over the past few years. I think you are basically following my trail dude. HAHA

Me: *faints*

 

True story

[squeak]

First, how do you know if you are one of these people? I do believe I have above average writing skills or I wouldn’t keep doing it... even though I don’t share it with many people, and rarely under my own name.

 

I can’t help but wonder how can you really tell if you are any good at the things you think you are good at?

 

Second... does anyone else know these kinds of people? Tell me about them!

 

In the cases you mentioned, such as writing, if they are truly good, people know who they are. Now, obviously arguments can come about regarding "does that mean Danielle Steele is a better writer than Doystevsky because both are well known" well that is a whole other argument.

 

But if someone is really good, they do not toil away in relative obscurity for their whole lives. That is how I seperate the wheat from the chaff. People DO know a good thing when they read it/hear it/see it.

[Fun2BMe]

 

First, how do you know if you are one of these people? I do believe I have above average writing skills or I wouldn’t keep doing it... even though I don’t share it with many people, and rarely under my own name.

I think your logic is off as far as how you are determining your writing skills. Just because you keep doing it doesn't mean you are above average. I too write a lot and have been published A LOT but I don't think my writing skills are above average by any means. So if I write more than you do, does that mean we can conclude I am the better writer based on the frequency? NO!

 

There are musicians who are of very average talent and skill but who peform frequenty compared to a more talented (and humble) musician. Doesn't mean they're any better. Maybe they have better people skills and know how to book their shows or have sex appeal and people are coming to 'listen' to them for different reasons.

 

I can’t help but wonder how can you really tell if you are any good at the things you think you are good at?

I think you would have to be open to honest feedback and put your skills to the test. Is a publisher willing to publish your book? Do your records sell? How does your recording of x sound against someone else's? Are you open to accepting that you are not as good as you think you are?

 

Deep down are you aware that you are BS-ing people into thinking you are better than you know yourself to be? If someone who doesn't make others laugh scores himself very high in the humor department, he is being very dishonest and deceitful, either knwoingly or unknowingly.

 

Or how about he knows how below average he is much more than the person who is above average. Whereas the above average will score his skills lower because he is unaware of them, the below average struggles so much and knows so well how below average he is, that he tries to compensate it by overestimating himself so others don't know how incompetent he is.

[squeak]

Also, the people who were judged to oversetimate themselves through generic testing have something that is imperative to the process itself:ego and belief in themselves. I would like to tell you the most talented people were humble, self aware , and all that, but a little bit of talent and a truckload of ego go pretty far.

 

You know what I was told those people had in common (the uber acknowledged ones) -they thought they were the fu&*ing best!

[Fun2BMe]

Second... does anyone else know these kinds of people? Tell me about them!

 

We all see them on talent shows such as American Idol. They sing the worse yet think they are the best, and are genuinely shocked when they don't get to move forward. Whereas someone with an amazing voice and singing ability will be more humble and think they're not good enough, and will be shocked to find out they've made it as a contestant.

 

Same with America's Next Top Model. All the girls with the real model potential always get sent home because they don't believe in themselves and don't think they're good enough (and the judges always tell them what good is it if we see it in you but you don't), but the one who is a little too fat or old to be in the industry or too short or just doesn't have the look, thinks she's all that and keeps moving forward week to week!

[squeak]

We all see them on talent shows such as American Idol. They sing the worse yet think they are the best, and are genuinely shocked when they don't get to move forward. Whereas someone with an amazing voice and singing ability will be more humble and think they're not good enough, and will be shocked to find out they've made it as a contestant.

 

Same with America's Next Top Model. All the girls with the real model potential always get sent home because they don't believe in themselves and don't think they're good enough, but the one who is a little too fat to be in the industry or too short or just doesn't have the look, thinks she's all that and keeps moving forward week to week.

 

 

It could be fake humble too. Everyone knows people feel safer around people who play themselves down. Both camps are true, and there is no pattern. there are some really talented people who are really unpleasant and boastful.

 

Same with the untalented. And some people know to keep it under wraps because they get more assitance and support by seeming safe and cuddly and self effacing.

[monkey00]

I guess the simple thought behind my post was... How do you know where the line is between a healthy self-esteem and an overinflated ego?

I think the only way to really know is to keep it in check.

 

Would it be a willingness to listen to and learn from others perhaps? That would actually solve most of the problem with regard to people I have come across. They don't have to agree with me by any means... but a willingness to hear another person out and at least consider their point of view goes a long way.

 

It does, being a good listener also constitutes a good leadership ability. Most people are pretty poor listeners but it's also human nature to be selfish by their own means. Though from what I've seen it seems certain people are more susceptible to attention seeking than others...it's like a drug, once you take away that attention they don't feel so good about themselves...but it's also a regular human need to have attention or feel special/important.

[boshemia]

I kind of decided that you were right before I ever even read the responses. The only way I will ever know for sure if I am any good at writing is to stop hiding it. So I finally posted some of my work online. I've belonged to some of these sites since 2002 so... I have no excuses...

 

I think your logic is off as far as how you are determining your writing skills. Just because you keep doing it doesn't mean you are above average. I too write a lot and have been published A LOT but I don't think my writing skills are above average by any means.

 

Actually I didn't mean above the average writer, I just meant above average. Meaning netspeak gives me a headache.

 

I just thought it was an interesting concept.

 

As for reality TV? I don't know why I am embarassed to say this, but I don't have television. I've never seen any of those shows.

 

The only show I ever watch is "The Riches" because I am a die hard Eddie Izzard fan, so I hijack other people's cable for him. *sighs*

 

Perhaps this point can't really be proven at all. I mean how many people here would rate themselves as good drivers?

[booboolove]

The only way I will ever know for sure if I am any good at writing is to stop hiding it. So I finally posted some of my work online. I've belonged to some of these sites since 2002 so... I have no excuses...

 

Boshemia,

 

It is my humble opinion that when you write only for yourself and do not seek the approval of others, you are truly a great writer. You are the only one who needs to approve. As long as you continue to compare yourself to others, your insecurities will find their way into your work and somehow, diminish it.

 

In terms of the ego questions, well, I can only say that no-ego is the way to go. Sharing your excitement about your writing is enough to spark other peoples interest as long as their is no self-assuredness entwined in it.

 

Humbleness is just self doubt. Self doubt is not believing in your divinity.

[Fun2BMe]

 

Humbleness is just self doubt.

 

I would believe in the opposite. A humble person is self assure and doesn't have to brag about his abilities to get the approval of others. He is confident and doesn't need someone else's approval don't you think?

[lindya]

So two questions for everyone here to ponder...

 

First, how do you know if you are one of these people? I do believe I have above average writing skills or I wouldn’t keep doing it... even though I don’t share it with many people, and rarely under my own name.

 

I can’t help but wonder how can you really tell if you are any good at the things you think you are good at?

 

Whether it's writing or playing a musical instrument, you should really just do it to entertain yourself....unless you're being paid to entertain others or obtain critical approval, in which case I suppose you've got to focus on technical skill. If you're just doing it for fun, and other people like the way you write or play then it's great that they're entertained. If it encourages them to have a go as well, even better.

 

I like playing the piano. I've got an ear for music and can thump out a recognisable rendition of just about any tune, but I'd certainly never be a concert pianist. My nephew would go further than that. He tells me I'm making a terrible racket, orders me off the piano stool then sits on it himself, hammers tunelessly at random keys and declares "now that's a good tune, isn't it? Much better than you can do!"

 

It's more fun for him to thump at the keys than to listen to me doing it, so by his logic that means he's better at it. Maybe the woman in your writing group feels the same way as my nephew. Some people like to read other people's work or listen to them play music. Others much prefer the fun of doing it themselves. Perhaps they'll even tell other people "you're no good at that" to get them to stop. Speed up their own turn in the limelight. Or like the terrible singers in Fun's example. They dearly love to sing and because they feel so fantastic while they're singing, they assume that everyone else feels just as great listening to them.

[booboolove]

I would believe in the opposite. A humble person is self assure and doesn't have to brag about his abilities to get the approval of others. He is confident and doesn't need someone else's approval don't you think?

 

I believe that self-esteemed as opposed to self-assuredness, creates an air of confidence around someone. I tend to perceive people who are humble as insecure. Truly self-confident people can excitedly tell you about their accomplishments without soundling like they are 1. trying to sell you something or 2. win the game of one-up-manship.

 

A humble person will never bring up their accomplishments for fear of sounding like a braggart. They have the social sense that bragging is repulsive while those who do brag lack that insight. Having more social sense does not make a person self-assured, just more generally acceptable.

 

I understand that this is a blanket statement and there are acceptions to the rule, but in all my dealings with people, I find this this to be the case most of the time.

 

People with true high self esteem love what they do and want to share it with you because they feel so passionately about it.

[Fun2BMe]

I believe that self-esteemed as opposed to self-assuredness, creates an air of confidence around someone. I tend to perceive people who are humble as insecure. Truly self-confident people can excitedly tell you about their accomplishments without soundling like they are 1. trying to sell you something or 2. win the game of one-up-manship.

 

A humble person will never bring up their accomplishments for fear of sounding like a braggart. They have the social sense that bragging is repulsive while those who do brag lack that insight. Having more social sense does not make a person self-assured, just more generally acceptable.

 

I understand that this is a blanket statement and there are acceptions to the rule, but in all my dealings with people, I find this this to be the case most of the time.

 

People with true high self esteem love what they do and want to share it with you because they feel so passionately about it.

 

Let's say someone just got a huge promotion and raise at work, or just purchased a luxury home. The humble person with high self esteem will not blab about it, for reasons including not wanting to brag, not wanting to make someone else jealous and so on.

 

Someone else who is not humble, even if they finally qualified to rent an apartment in a sketchy part of town might go on and on about it trying to make it sound like they acheived something better than it is. They are the ones who wear fake designer clothes to try to show off, are opposite of humble and try to pretend they are confident by talking about themselves and what they own to sound important and sell themselves and get approval from others which the humble person doesn't need. But your perspective is interesting and makes sense too.

[booboolove]

Let's say someone just got a huge promotion and raise at work, or just purchased a luxury home. The humble person with high self esteem will not blab about it, for reasons including not wanting to brag, not wanting to make someone else jealous and so on.

 

If you were to look up the definition of humble, it's synonyms are degrade, humiliate and the like (depending on the context).

 

Have you ever seen a motivational speaker talk about their accomplishments? They will tell you how hard they worked and how proud they are of their accomplishments as well as the obstacles to getting there. They understand that they energy they convey is contagious. They are not as concerned with those who might get jealous or take it the wrong way. There are very few people walking amoung us ordinary folk who have this kind of passion for life. They usually have made fantastic successes of their lives by now.

 

The rest of us ordinary folk have fears in varying degrees which keep us in check so that we maybe socially acceptable.

 

Someone else who is not humble, even if they finally qualified to rent an apartment in a sketchy part of town might go on and on about it trying to make it sound like they acheived something better than it is. They are the ones who wear fake designer clothes to try to show off, are opposite of humble and try to pretend they are confident by talking about themselves and what they own to sound important and sell themselves and get approval from others which the humble person doesn't need. But your perspective is interesting and makes sense too.

 

I think most of us have some degree of internal barometer that let's us know the difference between someone who is bragging to impress us, and someone who is genuinely passionate about life. Although, I have known a few people...

 

To reiterate, I believe humbleness is just a socially defined characteristic that has little to do with self-confidence. Not going on and on, in detail, about your entire life, also falls under this category. Most self-confident people are aware of this as well.

 

If a person measures their self-worth in their possesions, my guess is that they lack self-esteem. And if the only topic someone can think to discuss is their purchases, then they are only trying to make their life more meaningful by filling it with things. Self-confident people focus the bulk of their thougths on their passion, and not their material wealth.

[lindya]

Let's say someone just got a huge promotion and raise at work, or just purchased a luxury home. The humble person with high self esteem will not blab about it, for reasons including not wanting to brag, not wanting to make someone else jealous and so on.

 

I'm never sure how to respond to extreme own-trumpet-blowing. I always feel that the person wants a standing ovation/gushing applause - and that if I don't provide that, they might assume I'm envious. I regard people who have a tendency towards unrestrained boastfulness a bit clumsy and lacking in social awareness. Probably not too bright.

 

Sometimes they can actually be very generous, nice people - which just makes the whole thing more cringeworthy for me. If I like them, then on the one hand I'll feel some pressure to respond positively to their validation-seeking...but it would feel dirty and wrong. Like handing a grossly obese child a sack of doughnuts.

[Fun2BMe]

If a person measures their self-worth in their possesions, my guess is that they lack self-esteem. And if the only topic someone can think to discuss is their purchases, then they are only trying to make their life more meaningful by filling it with things. Self-confident people focus the bulk of their thougths on their passion, and not their material wealth.

 

Well, how would you tell the difference between someone saying "I bought own an fancy car and my house is 15000 sq ft" as being "confident" vw. measuring their self[-worth in their posessions? I've always had a different idea of what humble is then I guess. I personally don't list the stuff I own to people, considering myself to be humble (not that I"m the most confident person either).

 

A motivational person talking enthusiastically about their accomplishments is a whole different category. An ordinary person disclosing their accomplishments (graduating from Harvard, making it to partner in a high ranking law firm etc) seems boastful and insecure, like they have to impress people is what I am thinking. Maybe because I experience people being nicer once they know what I'm worth so I stay "humble" but I don't know, I've never associated that with lack of confidence.

[booboolove]

Well, how would you tell the difference between someone saying "I bought own an fancy car and my house is 15000 sq ft" as being "confident" vw. measuring their self[-worth in their posessions? I've always had a different idea of what humble is then I guess. I personally don't list the stuff I own to people, considering myself to be humble (not that I"m the most confident person either).

 

Then, I believe you to be socially-aware person who has fears about social acceptance. This seems to reaffirm my earlier summation. Kudos to you.

 

A motivational person talking enthusiastically about their accomplishments is a whole different category.

 

Correct! These are typically, very self-confident people!

 

An ordinary person disclosing their accomplishments (graduating from Harvard, making it to partner in a high ranking law firm etc) seems boastful and insecure, like they have to impress people is what I am thinking.

 

This is a perfect example of someone who lacks self-confidence and is socially unaware. A truly self-confident person does not need to list off their accomplishments and accumulations of social status. They typically will tell you about a project they are involved with with great enthusiam and leave out the how it has brought them material wealth.

 

To answer a question that was raised in another post, when someone feels the need to list things and accomplishments off to you, simply say "How nice for you" and disengage as soon as you feel comfortable. My guess is that these types are naive enough that, instead of feeling offended, they will dismiss you in their mind, assuming something is wrong with you (and what do you care what someone like that thinks about you?) and then seek out the next person willing to listen to them drone on. Of all the types of people you can surround yourself with, these are people emit the lowest energy. Why would you want to be around that? Don't get upset or offended, for then you are just lowering yourself to their level. Just move on. Look for people who inspire you and surround yourself with them.

 

Maybe because I experience people being nicer once they know what I'm worth so I stay "humble" but I don't know, I've never associated that with lack of confidence.

 

That's just it, your financial worth should never be the topic of a conversation. What inspires you should always be your first choice of topic.

 

So to summarize my theory, there are 3 types of people:

 

1. Truly self-confident. Maybe, about 1% or less, of the population (which is why we don't run into them that often)

2. Socially aware, yet has fears. About half the population. Each with varying degrees of fears, making a wide range here.

3. Socially unaware with fears. The other half, or so, of the population. These are the people who are looking for approval. So they lay out their accomplishments before you, hoping for a pat on the back. Stuck, it seems, in that childhood phase of needing attention and approval.

 

Categories 2 and 3 are the ones that were assessed in the study which started this thread.

 

There are financially accomplished people in all categories, but what motivated them, you will find, is completely different.

[sb129]

2. Socially aware, yet has fears. About half the population. Each with varying degrees of fears, making a wide range here.

 

I think I fall into this group.

 

I used to seek alot more approval than I do now, I know my self esteem has had a healthy boost over the last couple of years, I feel that I am in a good place with it right now.

 

I used to feel inadequate next to all those people who boast about X,Y,Z, now I just feel that if they have to go on about it so much, they must be lacking in other areas of their lives.

I don't tend to talk about myself that much either- I have noticed in the last few years that as my self esteem improved, my need to be the centre of attention in a group decreased. I can quite happily listen to a conversation without contributing much. I thought it was because I had nothing to say- its not, its because I am happy saying nothing.

[monkey00]

I think everyone has a differing concept of humbleness. The way I see it, humbleness is hardly a sign of weakness. It is a highly valued trait that few on this world possess, and it is by far an attractive trait. To be able to face humility in the presence of others is not by far a sign of weakness - rather it is a sign of strength. It takes strength to admit that you're not perfect. Nobody's perfect, everyone makes mistakes - as long as one takes the time to learn from it. Though I think the problem with a lot of people as they get older is they are less and less willing to compromise their ego because they feel it is an attack on their self-worth/self-esteem.

 

Which is the reason that the majority of people are followers and not leaders. Great leaders know when to step down and become a follower if need be.

 

An individual is still capable of maintaining their ego while displaying humbleness. As long as you don't base your self-worth over what others think and you know yourself what your self-worth is.

[PeterWilliams]

This is an excellent topic. I agree with all the above interesting thoughts and comments. Much appreciated. Thank you..