Enema Posted November 8, 2007 Share Posted November 8, 2007 Apologies in advance if my understanding of the way this works is incorrect. As I understand it, most christians believe you have two options upon death: 1) You follow god's rules in life and you get rewarded with a place in heaven. 2) You don't follow god's rules and he sends you to hell to be tortured by satan and his demons forever. The question: Why would satan say, "Ok god, send all the non-religious to me and I'll torture them for disobeying you" Link to post Share on other sites
Lizzie60 Posted November 8, 2007 Share Posted November 8, 2007 Apologies in advance if my understanding of the way this works is incorrect. As I understand it, most christians believe you have two options upon death: 1) You follow god's rules in life and you get rewarded with a place in heaven. 2) You don't follow god's rules and he sends you to hell to be tortured by satan and his demons forever. The question: Why would satan say, "Ok god, send all the non-religious to me and I'll torture them for disobeying you" I don't believe in that crap anymore... I used to when I was a child and I was naive... but when I was old enough to know better.. I stopped all religions... it's all BS as far as I'm concerned. I do believe, though, that some people, when they get weak or in pain, might have the need to turn to religion or a God... I don't know.. but I don't. This satan's bull was created by the religious leaders to scare the sh*t out of people.... RC has always ran with this kind of philosophy... LOL I rather go to hell ... I'm sure it's HOT and a lot more fun!!!! Link to post Share on other sites
Moai Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 Apologies in advance if my understanding of the way this works is incorrect. As I understand it, most christians believe you have two options upon death: 1) You follow god's rules in life and you get rewarded with a place in heaven. 2) You don't follow god's rules and he sends you to hell to be tortured by satan and his demons forever. The question: Why would satan say, "Ok god, send all the non-religious to me and I'll torture them for disobeying you" There are a couple of ways to look at this: The first is like the Jews do, which is that Satan is actually on god's side, and he puts obstacles in front of you so your faith will get stronger. He wants you to overcome what he has put in front of you. There is no hell. Most Christians would disagree with this, but there are some who don't. This makes the whole Job story make more sense. The second is that Satan isn't working for god at all, but working against him, and while he is in charge in Hell, he was cast there and is having a horrible time of it also. Satan torments people because we are god's favorites, and if by making things tough for us he hopes to hurt god in some way. I wonder why Satan, who was once an angel and has seen god first-hand, and lived in Heaven before is such a retard that he forgot what that was like, forgot that god is all-powerful, and somehow thinks that he will win in a fight against him. Not only that, but god created Satan, and he was the most perfect of the angels. God must have known that Satan wold betray him, right? Also, does Satan have free will? Could Satan become good if he wanted? Satan must have free will on the one hand or he wouldn't have challenged god. But, he can't have free will or he wouldn't necessarily act as he is supposed to in Revelations. Wow, such difficult things to ponder! Or, one could realize that it is all imaginary (and not very well imagined, either) and get on with one's life and spend time worrying about more important things. like what's for lunch. Link to post Share on other sites
norajane Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 Wow, such difficult things to ponder! Or, one could realize that it is all imaginary (and not very well imagined, either) and get on with one's life and spend time worrying about more important things. like what's for lunch. I find Greek myths to be more interesting...three brothers, Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades, each ruling sky, sea, and underworld, respectively. The six rivers of Hades, the far shore guarded by Cerberus, the different sectors of Hades, Persephone...it's all more imaginative and entertaining. Everybody dies. Everybody goes to Hades. Only the gods live on, immortal. Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 I wonder why Satan, who was once an angel and has seen god first-hand, and lived in Heaven before is such a retard that he forgot what that was like, forgot that god is all-powerful, and somehow thinks that he will win in a fight against him. wasn't his sin not being such a retard, but of pride and vanity? Because he was the most glorious of God's creation, he couldn't understand why the Lord could love humankind as much as he did, because they were so inferior compared to the angels. and because God didn't side with him, he rebelled, vowing to tempt God's beloved human children, thus "stealing souls" away from God. And he knows God is powerful, but his vanity won't allow him to accept that. throw Jesus into the mix and it gets even more interesting: Here's the Son of God willing to take human for to deliver humankind from it's sinfulness, which whips Lucifer into an even greater frenzy, because once again God is showing his love for his human children and not exalting the angelic realm the way he feels it should. Job: I never did get that parable until a priest explained that Job actually was sinful in his belief that he was such a pious and godly man (i.e., too big for his britches), and that all those things that befell him were to help him realize that he was not as exalted as he believed himself to be. Still, it's a weird story, IMO ... Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean-Blue Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 Regardless of whether there is a Satan or Hell...it's scary when you realize that you won't know either way...at least not until you die. Link to post Share on other sites
shadowofman Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 Satan, like Jesus, and all the other great characters of ancient literature are exactly that,.... characters. The story of Satan is a retelling of the story of the egyptian god Set. Of course the character had to be rewritten in the context of the story of the judeo "God". These characters where all origionally written into polytheistic religions, and it's the religions, stories, and characters themselves that have evolved over time. Oral traditions that have been past down for generations, then hand written for more generations. Now debated between the denominations. It's all a make up story, clever but fictional story of the moon and stars. The constellations and the sun. People needed to understand why it got colder and colder in the winter. "Were the plants coming back this year?" They new nothing of seasons without stories to believe. An as time went on, we couldn't let go of the stories. We changed them to fit scientific fact. Where once, heaven was in the sky or cosmos, now it's in some alternate dimention. Where once hell was in the center of the earth, it's now thought to be in some alternate dimention. Link to post Share on other sites
shadowofman Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 Regardless of whether there is a Satan or Hell...it's scary when you realize that you won't know either way...at least not until you die. Oh, and rest easier Ocean-Blue. When you die, you won't know anything anymore. You'll be dead. You know things with your brain, and your brain will not be getting anymore blood. Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 It's all a make up story interesting how that "made-up story" centered around Christ has lasted 2,000 years and has a huge following! Link to post Share on other sites
Moai Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 It's all a make up story interesting how that "made-up story" centered around Christ has lasted 2,000 years and has a huge following! Not really. It was spread at the point of a sword, ad primitive people will accept just about any explanation for anything. Also, when you indoctrinate children at an early age to believe it, and punish those who don't, such things will last indefinitely. Consider Islam. People have been into that for 1500 years or so. Does that make it tenable, or true somehow? What about Hinduism? It has been around longer than Christianity has. Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 Also, when you indoctrinate children at an early age to believe it, and punish those who don't, such things will last indefinitely. but wouldn't that go to say that all children indoctrinated into a faith will retain that faith until death, and there wouldn't be people who fell away from the faith because none of them would put on their caps of logic and think themselves out of a religious belief? Because if what you say held true, we wouldn't have an agnostic or atheist population – everyone would claim a chosen God/gods-based religion. What about Hinduism? It has been around longer than Christianity has. yes, and there are other long-lived spiritual belief systems, but I was speaking particularly about Christianity in response to the earlier statement about Jesus and Satan and God all being made up. Link to post Share on other sites
disgracian Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 yes, and there are other long-lived spiritual belief systems, but I was speaking particularly about Christianity in response to the earlier statement about Jesus and Satan and God all being made up. So the "it's been around for a long time so it can't be just made up" only applies to Christianity and no other religion, or do you believe Hinduism is true also? Cheers, D. Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean-Blue Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 Oh, and rest easier Ocean-Blue. When you die, you won't know anything anymore. You'll be dead. You know things with your brain, and your brain will not be getting anymore blood. Perhaps. But you can't prove it either way (that there is an afterlife or that there isn't one). Link to post Share on other sites
lonelybird Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 An islam man one time attended a meeting, in the meeting people said "only through Jesus Christ we can be saved." he got extremely offended by that comment, but he heard a voice from nowhere, instantly he knew that was God told him "Jesus is my son", then he was converted since then, and become a important speaker:laugh: Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 So the "it's been around for a long time so it can't be just made up" only applies to Christianity and no other religion, or do you believe Hinduism is true also? )~ silly D! Other religions aren't disregarded, am just focusing on the big C for this particular point. Points. ... point. It's been a long day *pout* I don't subscribe to Hinduism personally, because I've got a chosen belief system, but I don't deny that others find truth in it. Link to post Share on other sites
lonelybird Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 when concerning truth, I'd rather people got angry at me, than speak false thing that against God and truth. I fear God more than mortal, I am not a people pleaser Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean-Blue Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 when concerning truth, I'd rather people got angry at me, than speak false thing that against God and truth. I fear God more than mortal, I am not a people pleaser But this "truth" you speak of has yet to be proven. All you've done thus far is speak emotionally about your beliefs. You have yet to provide anything substantive to back up your feelings/beliefs. Link to post Share on other sites
lonelybird Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 my witness is my prove, I have supernature things happen in my life; there isn't only one witness. there are countless witnesses from all kinds of people. AND listen to them or not, depends on you. and you have to find out by yourself, to read bible, to pray ask God to reveal Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean-Blue Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 my witness is my prove, I have supernature things happen in my life; there isn't only one witness. there are countless witnesses from all kinds of people. AND listen to them or not, depends on you. and you have to find out by yourself, to read bible, to pray ask God to reveal See, I have done that. I've read parts of the bible, I've been to church, I've questioned and read. And it seems to me that the same questions keep coming up over and over again. I can't seem to find the answers. I've seen and heard far too much to believe in Catholic beliefs. I disagree with so much of the RCC's actions that I simply cannot see what they propose as being "truth". My experience in terms of Christianity is limited to Catholicism. And this "truth" you speak of lonelybird... Why is it that what was once considered a holy book (the Old Testament) has now been trumped by the NT? I don't get it. Isn't truth, truth. How is it that it has changed? Link to post Share on other sites
lonelybird Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 See, I have done that. I've read parts of the bible, I've been to church, I've questioned and read. And it seems to me that the same questions keep coming up over and over again. I can't seem to find the answers. I've seen and heard far too much to believe in Catholic beliefs. I disagree with so much of the RCC's actions that I simply cannot see what they propose as being "truth". My experience in terms of Christianity is limited to Catholicism. And this "truth" you speak of lonelybird... Why is it that what was once considered a holy book (the Old Testament) has now been trumped by the NT? I don't get it. Isn't truth, truth. How is it that it has changed? OT isn't trumped by NT, they are a whole book, they support each other. but God did replace the Old covenant with new covenant, this also written in OT. and many prophecies in OT did happen in NT, and Jesus fulfilled all prophecies that OT written about messiah Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 You have yet to provide anything substantive to back up your feelings/beliefs. ooh, ooh, can I answer this one? Christ tells his apostles that "not even the gates of hell can prevail against my church." And his church is comprised of those baptized into the life and death and resurrection of Christ. Spiritually speaking. historically speaking, the church has been around ever since the apostles went a-preachin' ... and that body of believers became the Church (capital "C" – as in the Catholic Church), which has been in existence for approximately 2000 years. She's survived crooked men of the cloth, she's survived that horrific experiences called the Crusades and the Inquisition, she's survived the abuse of power by pedophile priests, she's not fallen apart even after the Second Vatican Council, when some well-intentioned followers took "allow a breath of fresh air in" to mean adopting ultra-liberal practices, she's even survived protestant revolutions. Even though Christianity is split into so many different branches, there is a commonality of roots in the Catholic Church. so even though LB may be practicing a different "flavor" of Christianity, her base truth about faith is the same is mine: Christ is Lord and savior, and the gates of hell will never prevail against his church. Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean-Blue Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 OT isn't trumped by NT, they are a whole book, they support each other. but God did replace the Old covenant with new covenant, this also written in OT. and many prophecies in OT did happen in NT, and Jesus fulfilled all prophecies that OT written about messiah Yes, I understand that the OT is still regarded as a holy book... But don't you find it a bit alarming that there has been a HUGE paradigm shift (God going from being a vengeful one to a loving, forgiving one)? The RCC has changed it's stance on certain issues over time. Now I think this is great...HOWEVER, it goes to show you that what they propose to be truth is not truth at all! The truth does not change with the times, it is static. Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean-Blue Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 You have yet to provide anything substantive to back up your feelings/beliefs. ooh, ooh, can I answer this one? Christ tells his apostles that "not even the gates of hell can prevail against my church." And his church is comprised of those baptized into the life and death and resurrection of Christ. Spiritually speaking. historically speaking, the church has been around ever since the apostles went a-preachin' ... and that body of believers became the Church (capital "C" – as in the Catholic Church), which has been in existence for approximately 2000 years. She's survived crooked men of the cloth, she's survived that horrific experiences called the Crusades and the Inquisition, she's survived the abuse of power by pedophile priests, she's not fallen apart even after the Second Vatican Council, when some well-intentioned followers took "allow a breath of fresh air in" to mean adopting ultra-liberal practices, she's even survived protestant revolutions. Even though Christianity is split into so many different branches, there is a commonality of roots in the Catholic Church. so even though LB may be practicing a different "flavor" of Christianity, her base truth about faith is the same is mine: Christ is Lord and savior, and the gates of hell will never prevail against his church. So simply because a particular set of beliefs have persisted throughout time, you believe this is proof of it's inherent truth? Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 I disagree with so much of the RCC's actions that I simply cannot see what they propose as being "truth" I take it you're referring to the scandals of sex abuse by ordained clergy who are pedophiles? And the Inquistion and the Crusades? Those horrific events were wrought by humans, not by the Holy Spirit, which ultimately guides the Church. Link to post Share on other sites
lonelybird Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 Yes, I understand that the OT is still regarded as a holy book... But don't you find it a bit alarming that there has been a HUGE paradigm shift (God going from being a vengeful one to a loving, forgiving one)? The RCC has changed it's stance on certain issues over time. Now I think this is great...HOWEVER, it goes to show you that what they propose to be truth is not truth at all! The truth does not change with the times, it is static. God in OT is still a loving and forgiving one. just people fail to explain or understand. when God said vengence that because those people were bloodshed, and did all evil things, so God got angry at them, God wanted to protect orphants and weak people, but God also did give evildoers many chance to repent and change. when concerning forgiveness, no one can over pass God's forgiveness. we hurt God's feeling and ignore his goodness for countless times,yet he still forgives Link to post Share on other sites
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