Why does Satan work for God?

[Ocean-Blue]

I disagree with so much of the RCC's actions that I simply cannot see what they propose as being "truth"

 

I take it you're referring to the scandals of sex abuse by ordained clergy who are pedophiles? And the Inquistion and the Crusades? Those horrific events were wrought by humans, not by the Holy Spirit, which ultimately guides the Church.

 

Well yes, the political motivations of the RCC has been quite evident throughout history. It has done horrible things to people. But anyway...

 

I do not agree with the church's teachings on certain things. My biggest qualm with the RCC or Christianity in general is the notion of there being a hell (despite Cs claiming that their God is an all forgiving one). But anyway, I've been going on about this particular issue for a while now. And no one has given me anything substantial.

[Ocean-Blue]

God in OT is still a loving and forgiving one. just people fail to explain or understand. when God said vengence that because those people were bloodshed, and did all evil things, so God got angry at them, God wanted to protect orphants and weak people, but God also did give evildoers many chance to repent and change. when concerning forgiveness, no one can over pass God's forgiveness. we hurt God's feeling and ignore his goodness for countless times,yet he still forgives

 

The OT God is NOT a forgiving one. He is vengeful. Even Christians admit this.

[quankanne]

So simply because a particular set of beliefs have persisted throughout time, you believe this is proof of it's inherent truth?

 

I find it incredibly amazing that an institution this old has survived human nature … that it's truly catholic (universal) in nature … that it's timeless – there will always be seven sacraments; that Christ is present today in the Eucharist … that it's going to stay fundamentally unchanged until the end of time. That sense of assuredness is a good foundation, especially now, when we've got so many more challenges and choices facing us.

[lonelybird]

The OT God is NOT a forgiving one. He is vengeful. Even Christians admit this.

christians have many ideas about God , which one is true? read Bible, the ideas conform to Bible is true. some christians even still under bondages of satan. didn't Lord set them free? yes, Lord did set them free, but if they don't clingy to words and truth of God, they will get hurt by satan (or negativeness). ANGAIN, Bible speaks truth, bible tell us "we are God's children, Jesus set us free, Jesus died in our places that we can have abundant life", BUT if we don't listen to these and engrave these into our heart and mind, satan will hurt us and put lies in us. That is why the idea that don't think Bible is God's words is danger, because this give satan chance to deprive us. and anyone who don't believe in God and Bible is in danger of deprived by satan, don't piss off by this, really think back about your life, is it fulfilling and content one?

 

Bible speaks many supernature power things, if we apply them into our lives, we can see God's supernature power often

[Moai]

So simply because a particular set of beliefs have persisted throughout time, you believe this is proof of it's inherent truth?

 

I find it incredibly amazing that an institution this old has survived human nature … that it's truly catholic (universal) in nature … that it's timeless – there will always be seven sacraments; that Christ is present today in the Eucharist … that it's going to stay fundamentally unchanged until the end of time. That sense of assuredness is a good foundation, especially now, when we've got so many more challenges and choices facing us.

 

You have got to be kidding. Is it ok to bur witches? No, not now, but it was.

 

Does the church still perform exorcisms? No.

 

Ever heard of the Reformation?

 

Do you think that Transubstantiation is true?

 

The Ancient Egyptian religion was around longer than yours. And it is dead now. Does that give you comfort?

 

All religions die and have been replaced. Yours will be no different--although I sincerely hope that it won't be replaced.

[disgracian]

I find it incredibly amazing that an institution this old has survived human nature … That sense of assuredness is a good foundation, especially now, when we've got so many more challenges and choices facing us.

Yet again, how does this separate it from any other religion out there? Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, they're all old and have survived human nature (whatever that means).

 

Cheers,

D.

[Storyrider]

The explanation of heaven/hell that I like the most is as follows:

 

If you reject, or turn away from God in life, basically, if you say, "I don't want God," then you get what you ask for in life as well as after death. Basically, God says, "OK, you don't want me? That's fine. I'm not going to force myself on you. If you want to be alone in death, you can choose that."

 

In this scenario hell is only being separated from God, or from all that is good and true.

 

I don't know these days if I believe it, but I used to like the sound of it.

 

About Job, I don't think the point was that he was vain and being punished for something. The story of Job is about how good people suffer in this world. We see all around us that it is true. I don't think it is intended as a behavioral lesson. I think it is more of an acknowledgement of the human condition.

[Ocean-Blue]

Yet again, how does this separate it from any other religion out there? Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, they're all old and have survived human nature (whatever that means).

 

Cheers,

D.

 

If I'm not mistaken, I believe she answered this question in a previous post.

[Ocean-Blue]

The explanation of heaven/hell that I like the most is as follows:

 

If you reject, or turn away from God in life, basically, if you say, "I don't want God," then you get what you ask for in life as well as after death. Basically, God says, "OK, you don't want me? That's fine. I'm not going to force myself on you. If you want to be alone in death, you can choose that."

 

In this scenario hell is only being separated from God, or from all that is good and true.

 

I don't know these days if I believe it, but I used to like the sound of it.

 

About Job, I don't think the point was that he was vain and being punished for something. The story of Job is about how good people suffer in this world. We see all around us that it is true. I don't think it is intended as a behavioral lesson. I think it is more of an acknowledgement of the human condition.

 

Story, that makes sense. What I have a hard time understanding is how ANYONE can turn away from God if they are faced with God. Perhaps this can't really happen while we're on Earth, but surely when faced with God at the gates...no soul would dare turn away from God...so how the heck can God then banish someone to eternal damnation when the soul clearly wants another shot?

 

I just have a VERY hard time understanding how God, creator of all, can do this? How can God be so unforgiving and definite?

[Storyrider]

Story, that makes sense. What I have a hard time understanding is how ANYONE can turn away from God if they are faced with God. Perhaps this can't really happen while we're on Earth, but surely when faced with God at the gates...no soul would dare turn away from God...so how the heck can God then banish someone to eternal damnation when the soul clearly wants another shot?

 

I just have a VERY hard time understanding how God, creator of all, can do this? How can God be so unforgiving and definite?

Well, I see what you're saying Ocean, but I would say the constant temptation to turn away from God is analogous to a teenager turning away from the love of a parent because she wants to play by her own rules. Even if she knows her parent really loves her, that doesn't stop her from wanting to do things her own way, or from choosing her own judgements and desires over that of her parent.

 

In fact, if God does exist, I'm pretty sure I don't want to do what He's asking of me lately. I'm starting to think that I'm never going to change on some of these things. Even on days I think I'm wrong, I would still rather be wrong than the alternative, which is to allow another will to destroy who I am. (This is why my marriage is on the rocks.)

 

Why would this change just because I'm dead? Or are you thinking that I will see the light after I die, the veil will fall away from my eyes, and I will want to do God's will all the time? I think we could easily still be turning away from God even after death, and that is why we don't end up "with" Him.

[Ocean-Blue]

Well, I see what you're saying Ocean, but I would say the constant temptation to turn away from God is analogous to a teenager turning away from the love of a parent because she wants to play by her own rules. Even if she knows her parent really loves her, that doesn't stop her from wanting to do things her own way, or from choosing her own judgements and desires over that of her parent.

 

In fact, if God does exist, I'm pretty sure I don't want to do what He's asking of me lately. I'm starting to think that I'm never going to change on some of these things. Even on days I think I'm wrong, I would still rather be wrong than the alternative, which is to allow another will to destroy who I am. (This is why my marriage is on the rocks.)

 

Why would this change just because I'm dead? Or are you thinking that I will see the light after I die, the veil will fall away from my eyes, and I will want to do God's will all the time? I think we could easily still be turning away from God even after death, and that is why we don't end up "with" Him.

 

I'm thinking, if God is as fair and loving as Catholics say he is, he'd meet you on judgment day and give you the facts. He'd show you everything that you were oblivious to (reveal his glory to you)...at which point you are asked to make a decision - either reject God and go to hell OR realize that you made a mistake and perhaps be sent to purgatory for a defined period of time to repent (subsequent to which, you're reevaluated).

 

My issues with hell are, assuming only those who are TRULY evil and reject God go, that 1) no human soul would reject God when given all the facts and 2) how can God send something he created and claims to love to eternal damnation?

 

As for your parent-child analogy. I find that interesting because when you think of a parent's love, you think of unconditional love. I know for me, no matter what happens, my mother and father will ALWAYS be there. Can't say the same for God, can we?

[Storyrider]

I'm thinking, if God is as fair and loving as Catholics say he is, he'd meet you on judgment day and give you the facts. He'd show you everything that you were oblivious to (reveal his glory to you)...at which point you are asked to make a decision - either reject God and go to hell OR realize that you made a mistake and perhaps be sent to purgatory for a defined period of time to repent (subsequent to which, you're reevaluated).

 

My issues with hell are, assuming only those who are TRULY evil and reject God go, that 1) no human soul would reject God when given all the facts and 2) how can God send something he created and claims to love to eternal damnation?

 

As for your parent-child analogy. I find that interesting because when you think of a parent's love, you think of unconditional love. I know for me, no matter what happens, my mother and father will ALWAYS be there. Can't say the same for God, can we?

I guess you're saying there is that point of no return when you either get to go with God or you don't, when you can't change your mind anymore (unless there is a purgatory, as you say). Whereas with a loving parent, there would always be another chance at redemption.

 

I wonder if perhaps we choose where we go, even after death. Perhaps we are shown God's glory and shrink from it rather than longing for it?

 

For example, what if God came to you in all his glory one day when you were walking down the street, and He told you to go be another Mother Theresa and minister to the lepers. Not everyone would embrace that. I can imagine it might be like that after death, too. If you embrace Him, you have to submit to Him.

 

Maybe some of us would still choose separation from God or "Hell".

[Ocean-Blue]

I guess you're saying there is that point of no return when you either get to go with God or you don't, when you can't change your mind anymore (unless there is a purgatory, as you say). Whereas with a loving parent, there would always be another chance at redemption.

 

I wonder if perhaps we choose where we go, even after death. Perhaps we are shown God's glory and shrink from it rather than longing for it?

 

For example, what if God came to you in all his glory one day when you were walking down the street, and He told you to go be another Mother Theresa and minister to the lepers. Not everyone would embrace that. I can imagine it might be like that after death, too. If you embrace Him, you have to submit to Him.

 

Maybe some of us would still choose separation from God or "Hell".

 

Yeah, but would this God actually gives us that chance - would he TRULY reveal all to us and then allow us to make a choice?

 

Frankly, the idea of hell doesn't make sense. Never has (because of it being eternal).

[Storyrider]

Yeah, but would this God actually gives us that chance - would he TRULY reveal all to us and then allow us to make a choice?

 

Frankly, the idea of hell doesn't make sense. Never has (because of it being eternal).

Ah, I just typed something and it got eaten. I'm going to have to take this up again after a good night's sleep. Gnight!

[lonelybird]

here is the reason why when you face God at the gate after physical death, it would be too late

 

Luke:

"There was once a rich man who dressed in the most expensive clothes and lived in great luxury every day.

16:20 There was also a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who used to be brought to the rich man's door,

16:21 hoping to eat the bits of food that fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs would come and lick his sores.

16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to sit beside Abraham at the feast in heaven. The rich man died and was buried,

16:23 (*)and in Hades,(s) where he was in great pain, he looked up and saw Abraham, far away, with Lazarus at his side.

16:24 So he called out, 'Father Abraham! Take pity on me, and send Lazarus to dip his finger in some water and cool off my tongue, because I am in great pain in this fire!'

16:25 But Abraham said, 'Remember, my son, that in your lifetime you were given all the good things, while Lazarus got all the bad things. But now he is enjoying himself here, while you are in pain.

16:26 Besides all that, there is a deep pit lying between us, so that those who want to cross over from here to you cannot do so, nor can anyone cross over to us from where you are.'

16:27 The rich man said, 'Then I beg you, father Abraham, send Lazarus to my father's house,

16:28 where I have five brothers. Let him go and warn them so that they, at least, will not come to this place of pain.'

16:29 Abraham said, 'Your brothers have Moses and the prophets to warn them; your brothers should listen to what they say.'

16:30 The rich man answered, 'That is not enough, father Abraham! But if someone were to rise from death and go to them, then they would turn from their sins.'

16:31 But Abraham said, 'If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone were to rise from death.'"

 

and this is so true, here today's age, some people were actually dead, and came back and warn others, but people still don't listen, and try to explain it in a scientific way (even scientists themselves don't dare to say surely why)

 

God is forgiving God, he can forgive any sinns IF we repent, but if people don't have any remorse, why should God forgive them? God is also a JUSTICE and Holy GOD. God call them to repent, HERE, on earth, if they don't want to repent and change a bit of sinful ways, they don't want God really

[Ocean-Blue]

here is the reason why when you face God at the gate after physical death, it would be too late

 

Luke:

"There was once a rich man who dressed in the most expensive clothes and lived in great luxury every day.

16:20 There was also a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who used to be brought to the rich man's door,

16:21 hoping to eat the bits of food that fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs would come and lick his sores.

16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to sit beside Abraham at the feast in heaven. The rich man died and was buried,

16:23 (*)and in Hades,(s) where he was in great pain, he looked up and saw Abraham, far away, with Lazarus at his side.

16:24 So he called out, 'Father Abraham! Take pity on me, and send Lazarus to dip his finger in some water and cool off my tongue, because I am in great pain in this fire!'

16:25 But Abraham said, 'Remember, my son, that in your lifetime you were given all the good things, while Lazarus got all the bad things. But now he is enjoying himself here, while you are in pain.

16:26 Besides all that, there is a deep pit lying between us, so that those who want to cross over from here to you cannot do so, nor can anyone cross over to us from where you are.'

16:27 The rich man said, 'Then I beg you, father Abraham, send Lazarus to my father's house,

16:28 where I have five brothers. Let him go and warn them so that they, at least, will not come to this place of pain.'

16:29 Abraham said, 'Your brothers have Moses and the prophets to warn them; your brothers should listen to what they say.'

16:30 The rich man answered, 'That is not enough, father Abraham! But if someone were to rise from death and go to them, then they would turn from their sins.'

16:31 But Abraham said, 'If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone were to rise from death.'"

 

and this is so true, here today's age, some people were actually dead, and came back and warn others, but people still don't listen, and try to explain it in a scientific way (even scientists themselves don't dare to say surely why)

 

God is forgiving God, he can forgive any sinns IF we repent, but if people don't have any remorse, why should God forgive them? God is also a JUSTICE and Holy GOD. God call them to repent, HERE, on earth, if they don't want to repent and change a bit of sinful ways, they don't want God really

 

The "IF" says it all lonelybird. Your God's forgiveness is conditional, it is CONTINGENT on several factors. You ask why should God not forgive if there is no remorse on part of the sinner. In the Biblical excerpt you provided above, did the man not repent? Did he not feel remorse? Did he not beg that others not follow in his ways? And yet, God turned the other cheek, didn't he? He said, "TOO LATE SUCKER!

[lonelybird]

The "IF" says it all lonelybird. Your God's forgiveness is conditional, it is CONTINGENT on several factors. You ask why should God not forgive if there is no remorse on part of the sinner. In the Biblical excerpt you provided above, did the man not repent? Did he not feel remorse? Did he not beg that others not follow in his ways? And yet, God turned the other cheek, didn't he? He said, "TOO LATE SUCKER!

sucker, that is too strong word. well, God doesn't want people to go to hell, so he sent his servant again and again, and even his beloved son to us, died in our place, to call us to repent and change. what kind of love si this? but we killed his son and his servants and ignore God's righteous way, continue killing, adultery, cheating and all ungodly things....if anything, we don't have right or in a position to question God's forgiveness at all. see, if you make the universe and universe laws, you may question it, but you are far from it

 

Bible is very clear. God is all forgiving when people repent (what is so hard to repent? don't that we want to continue our sinful ways? your logic is that one person should do whatever they want and expect forgiveness from God?), but God is also justice and holy. you can do whatever you want, repent or not, change or not, but finally you have to face the consequences all by yourself. you have to face yourself at the end of day, and face God one day. turn to light is one way, turn back from light and stay in darkness is another way, really is your choice. God provides love, light, hope, protection, choose or not, it is still your choice. God really doesn't reject people, but people reject him, and hell is the choice the people make. God shows no partial, everyone turn to him he treats equally, he looks into heart, nobody can fool God

[Yosef]

The "IF" says it all lonelybird. Your God's forgiveness is conditional, it is CONTINGENT on several factors. You ask why should God not forgive if there is no remorse on part of the sinner. In the Biblical excerpt you provided above, did the man not repent? Did he not feel remorse? Did he not beg that others not follow in his ways? And yet, God turned the other cheek, didn't he? He said, "TOO LATE SUCKER!

 

Hey, God has his hand held out to us, it's up to us to accept the help and salvation he offers. He has spoken to us through the mouths of others, that those who wish to be saved must turn to Him. He's been calling out to us for more than 2000 years, and we've turned our deaf ear to him.

 

As for millions of people, as well as I, we turn our deaf ear away from him, so that we can listen to what he has to say with the other. That way, we can hear the warnings, and prepare ourselves for the judgment day.

 

You can say all you want "you're an idiot for believing in something that's not real," but you've been warned, just like the rich man.

[Ocean-Blue]

sucker, that is too strong word. well, God doesn't want people to go to hell, so he sent his servant again and again, and even his beloved son to us, died in our place, to call us to repent and change. what kind of love si this? but we killed his son and his servants and ignore God's righteous way, continue killing, adultery, cheating and all ungodly things....if anything, we don't have right or in a position to question God's forgiveness at all. see, if you make the universe and universe laws, you may question it, but you are far from it

 

Bible is very clear. God is all forgiving when people repent (what is so hard to repent? don't that we want to continue our sinful ways? your logic is that one person should do whatever they want and expect forgiveness from God?), but God is also justice and holy. you can do whatever you want, repent or not, change or not, but finally you have to face the consequences all by yourself. you have to face yourself at the end of day, and face God one day. turn to light is one way, turn back from light and stay in darkness is another way, really is your choice. God provides love, light, hope, protection, choose or not, it is still your choice. God really doesn't reject people, but people reject him, and hell is the choice the people make. God shows no partial, everyone turn to him he treats equally, he looks into heart, nobody can fool God

 

"Sucker" is too strong a word? Umm..considering that it's eternal damnation, I'd politely disagree with you.

 

I am not saying that one should NOT repent or continue in their sinful ways. First of all, I have my own list of sins (and I do not subscribe to the list espoused by the RCC). My point is that there is a point at which God gives up on his human children. This means he is not all forgiving. A true teacher would provide guidance, but they will also be there till the end, they will persist when others walk away.

 

Your God walks away. He is not all forgiving. Perhaps it's merely a matter of semantics...but it is something that bothers me b/c Catholics and Christians keep reiterating how forgiving (or ALL forgiving) their God is.

[lonelybird]

"Sucker" is too strong a word? Umm..considering that it's eternal damnation, I'd politely disagree with you.

 

I am not saying that one should NOT repent or continue in their sinful ways. First of all, I have my own list of sins (and I do not subscribe to the list espoused by the RCC). My point is that there is a point at which God gives up on his human children. This means he is not all forgiving. A true teacher would provide guidance, but they will also be there till the end, they will persist when others walk away.

 

Your God walks away. He is not all forgiving. Perhaps it's merely a matter of semantics...but it is something that bothers me b/c Catholics and Christians keep reiterating how forgiving (or ALL forgiving) their God is.

yes, God is all forgiving, I cannot lie to you, I made many mistakes, when I cried to ask God to forgive me, he did, EVERY TIME, he continuly shows his love to me. can I ask you this? what kind of teacher will send his own beloved son to a bunch of evildoers knowing that they might kill him, in order to show them the right way, in order to save them? what kind of teacher will send his own son to teach people how to be a good child in spite that he knows those evildoers would do harm to his son brutally? what kind of teacher send his spirit to guide us in a second basis? what kind of teacher will forgive when those who hurt him and harm him too many times? what kind of teacher loves his students even when they are sinners, before saved? he reaches out, but people don't response. God has feelings, he sorrows and grieves, he rejoice, he is totally giving

 

If you don't ask for forgiveness from God, then reasonably or logically you don't want it in the very first place. I think human logic apply this as well

[Ocean-Blue]

yes, God is all forgiving, I cannot lie to you, I made many mistakes, when I cried to ask God to forgive me, he did, EVERY TIME, he continuly shows his love to me. can I ask you this? what kind of teacher will send his own beloved son to a bunch of evildoers knowing that they might kill him, in order to show them the right way, in order to save them? what kind of teacher will send his own son to teach people how to be a good child in spite that he knows those evildoers would do harm to his son brutally? what kind of teacher send his spirit to guide us in a second basis? what kind of teacher will forgive when those who hurt him and harm him too many times? what kind of teacher loves his students even when they are sinners, before saved? he reaches out, but people don't response. God has feelings, he sorrows and grieves, he rejoice, he is totally giving

 

If you don't ask for forgiveness from God, then reasonably or logically you don't want it in the very first place. I think human logic apply this as well

 

Lonely, I respect that you have your beliefs and your values.

 

I don't think you can prove to me that God (as you see him) is all forgiving. I've stated my reasons for this in previous posts. To continue discussing this is redundant, I think. Thanks for your insights and sharing!

[quankanne]

we don't burn witches and exorcisms arent as prevalent as they used to be, because we've gained more insight into human nature with the developing field of psychology and medicine and how out-of-kilter systems in our bodies can manifest behavior once typified as demonic. I do understand that every Catholic diocese is supposed to have a priest trained in the rites of exorcism, and that his name is not revealed for his protection. Need to double-check on that one though …

 

as for transubstantiation (when the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ), yes, I do believe. Because if I can accept that Jesus is the son of God and the son of Man, and that he died for our sins and then was resurrected from the dead, it's not hard to believe that he's present in the Eucharist. LOL, one of the priests I work with likes to joke that it's much easier to believe that little wafer is Christ himself than it is to believe that it's bread :D

 

I think what Story said earlier, about "If you embrace Him, you have to submit to Him" explains a lot why people reject a claim to God, because to embrace God is to move outside our personal comfort zones. To give up those thoughts and theories that help make sense of him so that they can be open to him.

[Quinch]

what kind of teacher will send his own beloved son to a bunch of evildoers knowing that they might kill him

 

Might kill him? I thought christ's execution was part of god's plan all along.

[Enema]

Might kill him? I thought christ's execution was part of god's plan all along.

 

Yep, there can be no "maybe's" with god's plans.

 

As an omniscient being, he is supposed to know exactly what will happen, exactly what every person will choose to do and how every situation will unfold.

 

The problem of omniscience is in itself a huge problem for christianity, but is often overlooked.

[Quinch]

I know another story about a divine being who sent mankind his only son to save them from evil. He knew that, even though mankind was weak, they had a great capacity for good. The son had a humble upbringing with adoptive parents until, later in life, he discovered he had supernatural powers which he used to help the weak and oppressed.

 

The story is called Superman. What goes around, comes around