disgracian Posted November 12, 2007 Share Posted November 12, 2007 God tests us and putting an evil influence out there to try and tempt us to bash the name of God is one of his ways of testing our faith to him. So he wants us to fail? Interesting. Cheers, D. Link to post Share on other sites
Trialbyfire Posted November 12, 2007 Share Posted November 12, 2007 No pool in hell. Just desert. Don't forget about magma pools... Link to post Share on other sites
Pyro Posted November 12, 2007 Share Posted November 12, 2007 So he wants us to fail? Interesting. Cheers, D. So is that why teachers test us? Link to post Share on other sites
sally4sara Posted November 12, 2007 Share Posted November 12, 2007 You CANNOT prove my belief, (or anybody else's) is false........ SOME things have been proven however. Quantum Physics supports the idea of an original creator. Solid proof has been shown to discredit the whole "six days" theory (although the Bible never said our creator's day is only 24 hours long). So evolution has been proven. Then there are the things that can be nixed through common sense, such as the Morman belief that all the non believers where made recognizable by giving them dark skin.......I mean if a black person converts to Mormanism do they become white? If a Morman stops wearing the special underware, do they turn black? Easter........a totally stolen holiday formerly celebrated in the name of a goddess of fertility called Ester. But wait if thats the case When did Jesus rise from the grave? Dunno, but since the Christian faith made that decision for us we don't need to trouble ourselves further. The Hebrew word for "young girl" ended up being confused for the word virgin so now we all believe Jesus was born of a virgin. And no.....I didn't hear that one first from the movie Snatch. There is countless stories about a prophet of a higher entity sent to save the humans from themselves that were persecuted for there works, all of them near identical to the story of Jesus, but coming from places all over the globe and widely varying times in history. But none pushed as heavily as our friendly Buddy Christ. I could go on, but I think you all knew that already. And yet people are willing to kill, die, hate, and argue till they're hoarse and blue in the face over how their religion is right and everyone else is going to Hell........where ever THAT is. Seven pages and counting......... Link to post Share on other sites
disgracian Posted November 12, 2007 Share Posted November 12, 2007 So is that why teachers test us? The god of the Bible is no teacher. Regards, D. Link to post Share on other sites
sally4sara Posted November 12, 2007 Share Posted November 12, 2007 The god of the Bible is no teacher. Regards, D. Now now....he DID teach us not to eat spoiled pork. Link to post Share on other sites
Pyro Posted November 12, 2007 Share Posted November 12, 2007 The god of the Bible is no teacher. Regards, D. Its the same concept. Link to post Share on other sites
disgracian Posted November 12, 2007 Share Posted November 12, 2007 No it isn't. Teachers don't generally conceal all the information and make their students resort to guessing (without telling them whether they're right or wrong). There generally isn't some evil person running around the classroom telling students the wrong answers while the teacher just looks on without intervening. Finally, teachers also don't lock their students in an eternal torture chamber for failing the exam. Not even close to being the same concept. Cheers, D. Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted November 12, 2007 Share Posted November 12, 2007 Except that you're eating him. You don't find that the least bit creepy? heck, D, *you* make it sound creepy when you explain it like that!!! Otherwise, it's just receiving the Eucharist. Nothing freaky or unreal, just a part of my faith ... interestingly enough because I can't receive at this point in my life, it's taken on a whole new meaning for me. have I sought alternatives to what I believe? Only to ponder what it would be like without God in my life, and that led to images of a very barren, isolated existence. My faith works because I accept it for the gift that it is. For whatever reasons, not everyone is open to that opportunity, so I know it's something uniquely my own. Almost like the name my mother chose for me, with the unique spelling. It might not sound like a lot when someone else looks at it or says it, but because I know it was something well thought-out by her and represents something from her own past, it's a very unique name. You can look at it and say, "Oh, that's not a very unusual name, I've seen it before," yet it's mine alone for the reasons I've mentioned. Same with my faith. You look at it and wonder what's so appealing about it, but unless you are able to see it from the standpoint of a fellow believer, you just can't get it. Not trying to be snotty here or anything, it's just difficult to explain in a way others can comprehend. how does it "work" for me? It molds me into the person who I am meant to be … I am at my fullest through him. I know this sounds like I'm going off on another woo-woo tangent! Link to post Share on other sites
Pyro Posted November 12, 2007 Share Posted November 12, 2007 No it isn't. Teachers don't generally conceal all the information and make their students resort to guessing (without telling them whether they're right or wrong). There generally isn't some evil person running around the classroom telling students the wrong answers while the teacher just looks on without intervening. Finally, teachers also don't lock their students in an eternal torture chamber for failing the exam. Not even close to being the same concept. Cheers, D. So we agree to disagree. Why so many questions about what I believe in? Like Quank had said earlier, it is difficult to explain. To fully understand what we believe in or at least to the extent that I understand, you would have to believe in it as well. Link to post Share on other sites
FleshNBones Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 lonelybird, Keep up the emotional appeal because it is one of atheism's great weaknesses. It has nothing to offer in that field other than sex and drugs. Some people say they want sound logic to believe or adopt a religion. I seriously doubt logic led them to atheism, and I seriously doubt logic will lead them to religion. Why use logic if it isn't really an issue? Maybe it gives them the option to make the rules so they can get the outcome they want. Trying to convince someone who doesn't want to be convinced is kind of pointless. Maybe they like taking a few swings or calling themselves winners. I am tired of all of this talk about "What does religion offer?" My question is "What does atheism offer?" Athiesm offers nothing. In fact, it only promises death. Why would anyone adopt such a bleak, and meaningless belief system? Enema, I accept your apology. Your premises and questions are incorrect. That was easy. Link to post Share on other sites
Moai Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 lonelybird, Keep up the emotional appeal because it is one of atheism's great weaknesses. It has nothing to offer in that field other than sex and drugs. Wrong. One doesn't need to believe in an invisible superbeing to be moral. Do you think that the 4% of the US population of atheists in the US are the only ones keeping the $4 billion a year cocaine cartel in business? And what's wrong with sex? I enjoy it, and there are at least four people who did, too, or we would not be having this discussion. Beyond that, look at the number of clergy that abuse children. Just glance at this link: http://www.ffrf.org/books/betrayal/ You can claim bias because it is a Freethought site, but the list of clerical child molesters is sobering, as is the reaction of many of the churches involved. Atheism is nothing more than a lack of belief in a deity. That's it. Meaning in life is determined by the individual (even for believers), and so atheists have as much meaning (and morality) as everyone else. In most cases, more so. Look it up. Some people say they want sound logic to believe or adopt a religion. I seriously doubt logic led them to atheism, and I seriously doubt logic will lead them to religion.No, it is a question of evidence. The evidence asserted by believers is based either on fallacious reasoning or personal experience which can't be duplicated and is shared by others of competing, contradictory faiths. You are correct that logic will never lead someone to belief, but wrong in saying analyzing the claims of religion logically doesn't lead one to atheism. Why do you reject Islam, or Mormonism, or Jainism? Why do you not worship Qetzquatl? Chances are you use logic, and ask simple questions for which those faiths have no answer. You easily see the contradictory nature of their theology. We only differ because I apply the same thinking to your particular faith. In essence, you are almost as much of an atheist as I, I just go one faith further. I apply the same reasoning to all faith, you do not. Why use logic if it isn't really an issue? Maybe it gives them the option to make the rules so they can get the outcome they want.Logic is demonstrable. You use it every day. You just abandon it when it comes to superstition, for whatever reason. Trying to convince someone who doesn't want to be convinced is kind of pointless. Maybe they like taking a few swings or calling themselves winners.I am all for being convinced. As an atheist, I use evidence to reach conclusions about reality. Virtually everything I believe I do because of the evidence that convinces me. I would be foolish to ignore it. Beyond that, my acceptance of this evidence is always provisional--that is, I am willing to change my position in the face of greater evidence for a contrary position. There are, however, certain things that it is silly to be open-minded about. I am not open minded about dowsers, psychics, astrology, or numerology. I am tired of all of this talk about "What does religion offer?" My question is "What does atheism offer?" Athiesm offers nothing.True in a sense. You can either see the Universe as it is, or see it the way you wish it was. The Universe doesn't owe you a warm-fuzzy feeling about your existence. A delusion is still a delusion, no matter how it makes you feel. Believing in Thor makes me feel really good. Does that make it true? Why is belief in Thor silly, but belief in Jesus not? Because you adhere to it? Because there are countless apologetics written in favor of Jesus, but none for Thor? In fact, it only promises death. Why would anyone adopt such a bleak, and meaningless belief system?It isn't bleak and meaningless. It is actually enriching. Seeing the Universe as it is gives a sense of wonder and awe that no religion can possibly compete with. I've tried both, so I can say that based on experience. Why would someone adopt a belief system that is contradictory, that raises more questions than it answers, that makes one a hypocrite, judgemental, and that makes you reject things that are demonstrably true and accept things demonstrably false? Link to post Share on other sites
Moose Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 1) You follow god's rules in life and you get rewarded with a place in heaven.Nope. You accept Christ's birth, death and ressurection as your attoinment for sin. (New Covenant)2) You don't follow god's rules and he sends you to hell to be tortured by satan and his demons forever.This is null and void. The decision is yours, so you send yourself apart from God.Why would satan say, "Ok god, send all the non-religious to me and I'll torture them for disobeying you"Satan was literally, "perfect".....or was, "perfection" when God created him. Vane was he.....ever feel like you could do your boss' job.....even better? Well....what you don't know, is that, "The Boss", always knows more than you do.....whether you want to believe it or not. Personally, I can't wait to witness Satan falling on his face! Link to post Share on other sites
Moose Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 Meaning in life is determined by the individual (even for believers), and so atheists have as much meaning (and morality) as everyone else. In most cases, more so.However, we are Judged by a Higher Court. Men are merely peers on your level. Sure, you may not adhere or even believe in our, "Higher Court".....so why do you insist on being on the jury?Why would someone adopt a belief system that is contradictory, that raises more questions than it answers, that makes one a hypocrite, judgemental, and that makes you reject things that are demonstrably true and accept things demonstrably false?I still haven't seen any proof from you that the Bible contradicts itself, or that ANY of it is false...... Link to post Share on other sites
JamesM Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 While I know that facts and empirical proof are not the basis of your beliefs, you say that they "work" for you. I'm interested to know in what way, and if you've sought other alternatives to see if they work even better. I don't know that I personally could benefit from a belief that I don't understand, can't explain and have no proof for. For me there has to be some connection to reality so that I know I'm not just making stuff up. Cheers, D. Not meaning to be disrespectful to your beliefs or religion, when I read the beliefs that Buddhists hold, I find many that I don't understand, can't explain, or do not seem to have a "connection to reality." Why do you believe them? For example, (from http://www.aboutbuddhism.org/buddhism-beliefs.php ) After we die our very subtle mind leaves our body and enters the intermediate state, or 'bardo' in Tibetan. In this subtle dream-like state we experience many different visions that arise from the karmic potentials that were activated at the time of our death. These visions may be pleasant or terrifying depending on the karma that ripens. Once these karmic seeds have fully ripened they impel us to take rebirth without choice. Is there proof for this? Can we empirically explain this? It is important to understand that as ordinary samsaric beings we do not choose our rebirth but are reborn solely in accordance with our karma. If good karma ripens we are reborn in a fortunate state, either as a human or a god, but if negative karma ripens we are reborn in a lower state, as an animal, a hungry ghost, or a hell being. It is as if we are blown to our future lives by the winds of our karma, sometimes ending up in higher rebirths, sometimes in lower rebirths. Since you believe in no Creator God, then you can be born AS a god. If there were a God, then this would be a problem. Or perhaps we could be reborn as a hell being....would that be Satan? Samsara is like a Ferris wheel, sometimes taking us up into the three fortunate realms, sometimes down into the three lower realms. The driving force of the wheel of samsara is our contaminated actions motivated by delusions, and the hub of the wheel is self-grasping ignorance. For as long as we remain on this wheel we shall experience an unceasing cycle of suffering and dissatisfaction, and we shall have no opportunity to experience pure, lasting happiness. By practising the Buddhist path to liberation and enlightenment, however, we can destroy self-grasping, thereby liberating ourself from the cycle of uncontrolled rebirth and attaining a state of perfect peace and freedom. But if we just remember.... Buddha explained that all our problems and suffering arise from confused and negative states of mind, and that all our happiness and good fortune arise from peaceful and positive states of mind. He taught methods for gradually overcoming our negative minds such as anger, jealousy and ignorance, and developing our positive minds such as love, compassion and wisdom. Through this we will come to experience lasting peace and happiness. So if there is no God, why bother with any religion...including one which has no God? I can see following a "belief" that gives rules and ways to relate to other humans while on earth, but to worry about a life down the road...when if there is no God, our brains just die? So, it doesn't appear that religions that believe in a God are the only ones which stray from empirical evidence and reality. If there is no Satan or God, why tie one's life down with having to attain some sort of karma to have a better life. At least an atheist simply enjoys this life without worrying about the next. Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 Seeing the Universe as it is gives a sense of wonder and awe that no religion can possibly compete with. *smile* and for all of our separate experiences our conclusions tend to be same … that there is a sense of wonder and awe when we contemplate the broader scale of things through our respective religious belief or lack thereof. I can't look you in the eye … er, avatar … and tell you you're wrong just because you are agnostic/atheist, because we BOTH recognize the beauty of the universe. I just see the hand of God behind it, whereas you don't. Link to post Share on other sites
Moose Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 I just see the hand of God behind it, whereas you don't.And why? Because as smart as we may think we are, we can't explain it all. There's too much to absorb.......we are too limited to understand. Add the fact that there's the seperation of, "mind and brain"......physical and physcological.....tangible and transparent..... Sprinkle this with the, "un-explainable"....... Both sides of the, (this) arguement can be, 'boiled' down into one dish..... taste Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 And why? because I allow myself to be open to it ... Link to post Share on other sites
Moose Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 And why? because I allow myself to be open to it ... That's too easy! And WAY beyond the intellect of mortal men...... Link to post Share on other sites
lonelybird Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 lonelybird, Keep up the emotional appeal because it is one of atheism's great weaknesses. It has nothing to offer in that field other than sex and drugs. . my another prayer got answered:bunny:. I am waayyy too happy and content now than before as an atheist (who felt cold and hopeless). my communist parents begin to believe in Lord as well, they saw the change in me. NOW that is my prove we can do anything through Jesus Christ who strengthen us Link to post Share on other sites
Moose Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 my another prayer got answered:bunny:. I am waayyy too happy and content now than before as an atheist (who felt cold and hopeless). my communist parents begin to believe in Lord as well, they saw the change in me. NOW that is my prove we can do anything through Jesus Christ who strengthen us Before everyone dismisses LB's post.....allow me to expand....please... Satan does not work for God, or against God. Both are very visible in what we see, touch and even feel. LB's experience, MY experience, EVERYONE'S experience is unique. The results are evidence to us, (maybe not you first hand), but to those who believe and follow Him have peace, that is soooo evident, that others are drawn to it like a moth to a light. My personal testimony would knock you on your knees if you met me in real life. And I'm willing to bet that LB's would to. Link to post Share on other sites
disgracian Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 Why so many questions about what I believe in? Like Quank had said earlier, it is difficult to explain. To fully understand what we believe in or at least to the extent that I understand, you would have to believe in it as well. As I said before, curiosity. I like to know what drives people to believe in things that I find to be beyond reason. I also happen to disagree with the second part. It's just that fellow believers won't raise uncomfortable questions that you cannot answer, and you can all pretend to believe that you understand them and that they make sense. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but so am I so that's how it comes out. Cheers, D. Link to post Share on other sites
disgracian Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 I am tired of all of this talk about "What does religion offer?" My question is "What does atheism offer?" Athiesm offers nothing. In fact, it only promises death. Why would anyone adopt such a bleak, and meaningless belief system? Congratulations on being able to answer your own rhetorical question without listening to what atheists have to say, or even apparently taking the time to learn anything about what you're slagging off. To give you something to ponder, atheism denies the fantasy of eternal afterlives and instead focuses on the here and now. Religions typically devalue this life by claiming its only purpose is to grease your way into heaven. You don't have to do anything for anyone, just hold the right dogmatic beliefs and you're in. Atheism is all about making the most of the time you have, making it all the more important to live and love and do what you can for your fellow man while you're still alive. Then you can rest for all eternity having passed on your genes and your values to the next generation. I couldn't think of anything better. Cheers, D. Link to post Share on other sites
Trialbyfire Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 I am tired of all of this talk about "What does religion offer?" My question is "What does atheism offer?" Athiesm offers nothing. In fact, it only promises death. Why would anyone adopt such a bleak, and meaningless belief system? Shall people embrace Hans Christian Andersen Fairy Tales, making it their reality, if it helps them through life? What about imaginary friends? Link to post Share on other sites
IrishCarBomb Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 or even apparently taking the time to learn anything about what you're slagging off. You don't have to do anything for anyone, just hold the right dogmatic beliefs and you're in. Hmmmm..... I'm no theologian, but..... Link to post Share on other sites
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