Why does Satan work for God?

[Moai]

we don't burn witches and exorcisms arent as prevalent as they used to be, because we've gained more insight into human nature with the developing field of psychology and medicine and how out-of-kilter systems in our bodies can manifest behavior once typified as demonic. I do understand that every Catholic diocese is supposed to have a priest trained in the rites of exorcism, and that his name is not revealed for his protection. Need to double-check on that one though …

 

"Anymore." But once, the church happily burned witches (Protestants did, too, of course). But now they don't. Why? Because now everybody knows there is no such thing as a witch, and if anyone happened to burn one they would be thrown in prison, priest or no.

 

Exodus 22:18 says, "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." This is a commandment, not an opinion.

 

So was all the witch burning (for no reason) ok then, but not now because god was waiting for one of our silly superstitions to be figured out and abandoned, or were there witches once and there aren't any now--meaning at one time witchcraft actually worked, but now doesn't?

 

So god believes in witches? And if this was written by a man and he was wrong, which other things did they get wrong? Maybe god doesn't think homosexuality is wrong at all.

 

Jesus cast out demons. It is in the Bible. Yet nobody casts out demons now. Does that mean that all the demons are gone, or that they left for a while, or something else?

 

as for transubstantiation (when the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ), yes, I do believe. Because if I can accept that Jesus is the son of God and the son of Man, and that he died for our sins and then was resurrected from the dead, it's not hard to believe that he's present in the Eucharist. LOL, one of the priests I work with likes to joke that it's much easier to believe that little wafer is Christ himself than it is to believe that it's bread :D

 

I don't get that joke. You really think that by saying a little "mumbo-jumbo" over a cracker it LITERALLY becomes Christ's body? You are aware that nuns lie to children and say that "someone" threw a Eucharist at the wall and blood ran down, right? Do you believe that's true? Do you think that someone who doesn't believe that can go to Heaven? The Council of Nicea says that unless someone does believe that, they aren't a Christian.

 

I think what Story said earlier, about "If you embrace Him, you have to submit to Him" explains a lot why people reject a claim to God, because to embrace God is to move outside our personal comfort zones. To give up those thoughts and theories that help make sense of him so that they can be open to him.

 

It doesn't explain anything as to why people reject god. I have no problem submitting to authority, whne the authority is just and there is reason to. I submit to the government of the United States, for example.

 

But first you must show that there is something to submit to before I'll submit to it. And there isn't so I don't. I make much better moral decisions figuring it out for myself.

[Storyrider]

Moai,

 

The kind of submission Quank is talking about is not a submission to a limited authority. It is more akin to selling yourself into servitude to a master who you believe on faith is good, but whose orders sometimes seem counterintuitive or downright painful. Some of his orders may even seem to take away your identity as you know it.

 

You don't have to submit your entire will and your soul to the US government. If you did, I think most people would have a problem with it. That is why most don't subscribe to totalitarianism. And that is why there isn't a servant class in this country.

[quankanne]

I don't get that joke. the liturgically approved host is a skinny little wafer that doesn't really fit into one's concept of bread, even flat bread. Hence the joke …

 

You really think that by saying a little "mumbo-jumbo" over a cracker it LITERALLY becomes Christ's body? yes, I do. And I believe that it is to be treated with reverence, not be used to scare people into believing like what you say about some nuns telling kids by saying a thrown Eucharist allegedly goes bleeding down a wall. That's just bad catechism, period.

 

Do you think that someone who doesn't believe that can go to Heaven? The Council of Nicea says that unless someone does believe that, they aren't a Christian.

 

it's not my place to decide who get into heaven, just to share the Good News. Because ultimately, it's between a soul and God who merits heaven. And who's to say that an inquirer doesn't change his or her mind along the way? It's all so subjective, don't you think?

[disgracian]

You really think that by saying a little "mumbo-jumbo" over a cracker it LITERALLY becomes Christ's body? yes, I do.

Really? Do you think this belief would be substantiated by some forensic testing, or any kind of analysis to determine what the (former?) cracker is made of?

 

Cheers,

D.

[Storyrider]

Really? Do you think this belief would be substantiated by some forensic testing, or any kind of analysis to determine what the (former?) cracker is made of?

 

Cheers,

D.

I read this part of the NT as Christ meaning this literally, but I don't see why this point matters very much. If the Catholics are wrong about this one it doesn't really invalidate Catholicism as a whole.

[johan]

Why would satan say, "Ok god, send all the non-religious to me and I'll torture them for disobeying you"

 

It's not like Satan can get a job anywhere else. And have you seen what God pays? This is a pretty nice contract.

[Storyrider]

I meant to write I don't take this part of the NT literally. It is amazing how leaving out one little word changes your meaning entirely.

[disgracian]

I'm glad you don't, Storyrider, but quankanne seems to. Catholicism is already invalidated thoroughly in my opinion, so that's not what I'm seeking to do.

 

I'm curious as to how a thinking adult can maintain a belief in something so patently absurd, and whether they really think that any evidence can support it or whether it remains protected from reality within the walls of "personal faith" or "that's just what I believe".

 

Cheers,

D.

[sally4sara]

The OP's question reminded me of one of the Sandman stories by Neil Gaiman.

 

In it the Sandman has had some bad dealings with Lucifer that made him unwelcome in Hell, but he finds he has to journey there again to fix a mistake he made against someone he sent there out of a wounded ego. Because he knows he is unwelcome, he sent word ahead that he was coming.

When he gets there, Hell is empty and Lucifer has decided he is done and quitting the whole torturing of damned souls.

He complains that the only reason why Hell is the way it is is because these souls just show up. No one forces them their but their own conscience and when he tried to tell them he had no want to torment them, they were disappointed. He goes on the complain how frustrating it is when the living blame him for their actions. The whole "Devil made me do it" and accuse him of tricking people into giving up their souls to him. "What use do I have for souls? Like I'm some fishwife on market day."

He gives the key to Hell to Sandman and asks him to rip his wings from him so he may leave; being that he was the only one condemmed to Hell in the first place.

 

I got a big kick out of that part of the plot. The idea that Hell was filled with voluntary inhabitants that had arrived out of their own guilt for their actions on Earth and felt worthy of torture. I giggled over it off and on through out the rest of the day.

 

I use to be a big believer of the Christian faith. My views didn't change because of some fictional story. They changed through education and scientific fact. I do still feel there is an Original Creator. But the things we are told and all the dogma over what is good in our creators eyes and what is evil.........they are the ideas, concepts, and standards of Man. Why would a being so intelligent and powerful think like a human? Care about the things a human would care about? Or what a human would perceive as good or evil? More and more, following a religious doctrine felt the same as following a some schmoe with delusions and agendas. I can come up with my own.

[disgracian]

I just finished re-reading an old Heinlein book, Job: A Comedy of Justice which pulls a bit of a role reversal, casting the Biblegod as the malevolent trickster, akin to a child burning ants with a magnifying glass, and Satan as a kind of anti-hero with a guilty conscience.

 

If you can wade through Heinlein's writing style it's not a bad read.

 

Cheers,

D.

[Storyrider]

I'm glad you don't, Storyrider, but quankanne seems to. Catholicism is already invalidated thoroughly in my opinion, so that's not what I'm seeking to do.

 

I'm curious as to how a thinking adult can maintain a belief in something so patently absurd, and whether they really think that any evidence can support it or whether it remains protected from reality within the walls of "personal faith" or "that's just what I believe".

 

Well, it is supposed to be miraculous, not scientific. I don't really share your belief that it is absurd, but I don't believe in it either. My husband does.

 

I don't think I believe that any religion has it all right, but I think some religions got some things right, and others got other things right. I do believe in a universal truth, but that as limited beings we can't always figure it out.

 

I believe that if a belief is wrong or damaging, we have a responsibility to try and change or stop it. I don't categorize transubstantiation that way. An example would be human sacrifice.

 

I believe the C. church got some important things right, but I'm not a Christian. I don't think I ever could be.

[disgracian]

It turns out we have quite a bit in common. Universal truth, fallibility of all religions, soforth. However...

 

While I wouldn't categorise transubstantiation as damaging, I do consider it wrong and pointless. The end result of it (at least in the person's mind) is cannibalism. And what exactly is the benefit of thinking this? It seems a strange stance for the RCC to hold, given they have so much other pointless ritual and symbolism.

 

Cheers,

D.

[quankanne]

I'm curious as to how a thinking adult can maintain a belief in something so patently absurd, and whether they really think that any evidence can support it or whether it remains protected from reality within the walls of "personal faith" or "that's just what I believe".

 

I cannot give empirical evidence on what is a huge leap of faith for many Catholics, I can only tell you that it works for *me*. And if it marks me as an absurdist, so be it.

 

While I wouldn't categorise transubstantiation as damaging, I do consider it wrong and pointless. The end result of it (at least in the person's mind) is cannibalism. And what exactly is the benefit of thinking this? It seems a strange stance for the RCC to hold, given they have so much other pointless ritual and symbolism.

 

it's the whole "God with us" thing, that Christ still lives on in the Eucharist. And to partake in the Eucharist is to consciously choose to be a part of the Body of Christ.

[Pyro]

Regardless of whether there is a Satan or Hell...it's scary when you realize that you won't know either way...at least not until you die.

 

I usually don't respond in the religious section, so here it goes..............

 

In my heart, I know where I am going. Thats why its called faith.

 

As for the original question, Satan has no choice. God is far more powerful and Satan must accept those individuals.

[Enema]

As for the original question, Satan has no choice. God is far more powerful and Satan must accept those individuals.

 

If god is far more powerful than satan and can simply make him do things like this... why does god not completely limit satan from having any impact in the world at all?

 

Saying that god controls satan implies a malicious, uncaring god... if you also hold the belief that satan is responsible for evil in the world.

[Pyro]

If god is far more powerful than satan and can simply make him do things like this... why does god not completely limit satan from having any impact in the world at all?

 

Saying that god controls satan implies a malicious, uncaring god... if you also hold the belief that satan is responsible for evil in the world.

 

Disclaimer:These are nothing more then my opinions on what I believe in. I am by no means trying to preach or convert anyone here.

 

It all goes back to the original sin. That is why there is evil throughout the world.

 

I believe that Satan is a great influence on the evil in the world, but everyone is born with free will and everyone makes their own decisions, so in the end, its the individual that is to blame for what evil they have created.

[Enema]

It all goes back to the original sin. That is why there is evil throughout the world.

 

I believe that Satan is a great influence on the evil in the world, but everyone is born with free will and everyone makes their own decisions, so in the end, its the individual that is to blame for what evil they have created.

 

I wasn't asking where sin came from, I'm aware that many buy into the original sin lie.

 

I was asking why god, if he can control satan, let's him have any influence over the world at all? Allowing satan to influence evil in this world, when he has the power to prevent it... is evil too!

 

There is no "loving, all powerful" god concept that can survive this type of scrutiny.

[Pyro]

I wasn't asking where sin came from, I'm aware that many buy into the original sin lie.

 

I was asking why god, if he can control satan, let's him have any influence over the world at all? Allowing satan to influence evil in this world, when he has the power to prevent it... is evil too!

 

There is no "loving, all powerful" god concept that can survive this type of scrutiny.

 

Thats part of the imperfect world. He allows Satan to have a certain amount of influence on this world. God gave us all free will and he is letting us exercise that. Part of love is letting us have the choice to make our own decisons and choose which path in life we want to take.

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I just stated mine.

[disgracian]

I cannot give empirical evidence on what is a huge leap of faith for many Catholics, I can only tell you that it works for *me*. And if it marks me as an absurdist, so be it.

So no matter how much evidence to the contrary was gathered, you would never drop this belief? What, then, is its basis? That it was written in a book somewhere? I'd really like to know what motivates such unshakable belief in something that cannot be empirically shown to be true, and can quite easily shown to be false.

it's the whole "God with us" thing, that Christ still lives on in the Eucharist. And to partake in the Eucharist is to consciously choose to be a part of the Body of Christ.

That makes it sound like a symbolic gesture, so why the need to believe that the cracker somehow becomes the literal body of somebody who died and left this earth two thousand years ago?

 

Cheers,

D.

[disgracian]

Thats part of the imperfect world. He allows Satan to have a certain amount of influence on this world. God gave us all free will and he is letting us exercise that. Part of love is letting us have the choice to make our own decisons and choose which path in life we want to take.

Do you realise that free will can still exist without a malevolent entity (Satan) running amok on Earth? We could still make our own decisions, they would merely be more informed and less clouded by deceit.

 

So there is still another reason that this God character allows an evil spirit to operate under His control. I can't think of any reasons that are justifiable.

 

Cheers,

D.

[Pyro]

Do you realise that free will can still exist without a malevolent entity (Satan) running amok on Earth? We could still make our own decisions, they would merely be more informed and less clouded by deceit.

 

So there is still another reason that this God character allows an evil spirit to operate under His control. I can't think of any reasons that are justifiable.

 

Cheers,

D.

 

Do you realize that we were given the gift of freewill because of Satan and his influence? Frewill would never have existed without the presence of Satan.

 

Again, just my own personal beliefs and opinions, just like you stated yours, but in the end, neither one of us is more correct or incorrect then the other.

[lonelybird]

why people continue to say we don't have prove even we claim we have? we have prove for ourselves, it is in us, outsiders cannot see, you have to have your own experience with God

[Ocean-Blue]

why people continue to say we don't have prove even we claim we have? we have prove for ourselves, it is in us, outsiders cannot see, you have to have your own experience with God

 

lonelybird, you are not helping your cause any by making such posts. When trying to convince a non-believer or a non-Christian, you need to approach them with something other than "it is in us". Perhaps you should look into Christian apologetics...it may give you some tools with which to discuss this topic.

 

You may have more success...

[disgracian]

I would prefer if she didn't. Apologetics are a load of nonsense, and I find the whole basis of it to be morally dubious as well.

 

Cheers,

D.

[Ocean-Blue]

I would prefer if she didn't. Apologetics are a load of nonsense, and I find the whole basis of it to be morally dubious as well.

 

Cheers,

D.

 

Perhaps, but it's better than the approach employed by lonelybird.