Relationships v. Friendships: can they comfortably coexist?

[midori]

At Tony's suggestion, I thought I'd see what people think about maintaining same-sex friendships while in a committed relationship. Obviously for homosexuals this is a bit trickier, but the dynamic is in essence the same I think.

 

It's good to have a broad network of friends, and it's also good to not be fully dependent upon your partner for all of your emotional needs. But if you're exclusively sharing parts of yourself with your opposite-sex friends, and thus excluding your partner from connecting to you in those areas, something is amiss.

 

Obviously if you've got a particular interest that your partner doesn't share, and you've got an opposite-sex friend who does share that interest with you, you and your friend will connect on something that you don't connect to your partner about. And that's OK, surely.

 

I think there are two dangers in maintaining opposite-sex friendships when you're involved with someone else:

 

1. you can end up shutting your partner out because you've got other emotional outlets, or because you inadvertently devote too much time to maintaining the friendships.

 

2. you need to be scrupulously honest with yourself about what your friend's motives are in maintaining the friendship.

 

This is likely to be a provocative and controversial claim, but in my experience guys are more clueless than women are about point #2. I've known several guys who were kidding themselves about one of their so-called friends. I'm sure that it happens with women too, but I've just seen it more with guys. Is that true in other people's experiences?

[Tony T]

Well, in her usual inimitable style, midori has brought up an interesting question and also covered the discussion very well.

 

On this board, I have seen countless persons (unfortunately I haven't made a note of the sex of each) who were in friendships while their agenda was certainly more than that. I consider those to be corrupt, tainted and downright fraudulent. Many of those people conduct friendships with persons who have a special other with the hope they can move in upon a break up.

 

I do think there are many honest same-sex friendships but their number is equal to the number of persons with weak egos who can't handle those of a partner they begin seeing on a regular basis.

 

Many men particularly have a hard time fathoming that a woman can have a guy friend who isn't interested in her sexually. That position is based in part on projective thinking, part on experience and I guess some on just gut feeling. It's an insult to their girlfriend to think that another man would only seek her friendship in hopes of sex or the like rather than for pure friendship's sake....sounds like the woman has nothing else to offer the world. Yet, very often they are correct about the intentions of these "friends."

 

Same sex friendships can thrive and remain totally platonic for great lengths of time. However, each has to be lucky enough to find a partner who will accept the package. Some protest at first but become more comfortable later on as the threat diminishes in the mind of the new romantic interest.

 

Some same-sex friendships....no, many....find one of the partners feeling more strongly for the other after at time. I think that's natural. I wished many more relationships could start out as friendships and work their way up from there. However, if both people don't feel the same at approximately the same time, the friendship can be corrupted somewhat or even terminate...depending on the ego of the smitten and the maturity of both.

 

Women, I find, are more rigid in their pidgeon-holing of men into categories. If a woman has a platonic friend she enjoys, most often she will label him as such...stick him in a little compartment in her brain as such where it could be very difficult for him to be anything else.

 

I will also say that females take great risk in having platonic male friends because if they do develop feelings along the way, it is really difficult to shift the friendship back to earlier levels. These usually become very strained and the stupid male becomes "angry" because he just doesn't understand how the female wouldn't want to upgrade "such a wonderful thing." What he doesn't understand is that the female loves him very much, but as a brother, and it's not very likely she would every want to date or have a romantic interlude with a brother.

 

Females often do on occasion open a brief window during which they might entertain a relationship or some sort, even a brief sexual encounter. However, the window is often veiled and vague and if the guy doesn't see it open or act upon it swiftly, it will be closed as quickly as it's open.

 

A romantic relationship will ALWAYS win out over a friendship. If a same sex friend can't handle that fact, it is over. This is particularly true when one of the friends begins a relationship when the newness and fireworks are so overwhelming that nothing else exists in the world. A same sex friendship at this time is tested to the max. Perhaps a year or two down the line, the friendship can resume...then there's another problem. The partner who was not truly aware of this friend will wonder why this person didn't turn up early. Hopefully, things can be worked out...but the friendship is never the same.

 

Same sex friendships are almost doomed or they are subject to very major transitions when either marries. Married persons are not likely to want to include the friend in a great many social matters. If the remaining friend did not have a hidden agenda, then all will be well and the new texture can be easily accepted.

 

midori's post is right on the money in every way. Honesty is the key, with yourself and with the other person, if you're friends with a member of the same sex. I think in the vast majority of cases, they will not survive the test of time in the same form. If one lasts a very long time, it has been subjected to transition after transition until eventually once or twice a year phone contact is about all either can expect.

 

It is absolutely critical that every person inform their special other of these friendships so there are no surprises. Depending on the people involved and their honesty, they can be very delightful or nightmarish. They remain, however, very fragile and are subject to instant destruction with the entry of a romantic interest on the part of either friend.

 

If you want to know more about how I feel about this subject, you'll just have to wait for my book to come out.

[flower]

Midori and Tony: Great discussion here! So, if a couple has a lady friend who tries to get close to the man. What should the woman in the relationship do?

 

1)Pretend to acknowledge the lady's friendship or

2)Try to cease contact between her husband and lady where possible?

 

If vice-versa(the couple has a guy friend trying to get close to the woman), I assume the same treatment prevails.

 

Thanks for any feedback!

[Tony T]

A married man who tries to forge a very close friendship with a woman...or who responds favorably to a woman trying such...is treading on thin ice.

 

I personally don't think it's respectful for a man to respond to a woman who seems to be moving in beyond boundaries which should be common around married couples. But all this depends on the people and the circumstances. Decent men wouldn't let it happen. Men who are angry at their wives or who are looking to get something going on the outside...or even those with a weak ego looking for admiration from a female other than his wife...would respond favorably.

 

This situation is a very sensitive one. It takes a couple with boundless maturity, intelligence and understanding to allow a degree of closeness that goes beyond the reasonable. And, yes, there are even those who engage in threesomes for excitement or whatever. There are couples who advertise for this kind of activity. I personally find it repulsive but I won't judge others for seeking this kind of "excitement." There are all kinds out there.

 

On average, I think both men and women would object if a third party of the opposite sex as their partner would object if that person sought to become too close or too chummy. There's just no reason or call for it except as an overt attempt to seduce that person.

 

Perhaps this protective behavior is primitive instinct. It's imporant for the integrity of reproductive genetic exclusivity for people to keep their mates or partners sexually exclusive...but these days that seems to be pretty difficult sometimes. I guess if the couple isn't married, it may just boil down to jealousy and the possibility that the exclusivity could go right out the window.

[yes]

what about that idea that no relations between two people can be 100% non-sexual? that it's the degree of sexuality between the people that determines whether it's a friendship or a relationship or what not?

 

i think things are quite complicated - it's hard to make clear distinctions, even when one is trying to be honest with oneself.

 

here's something that's aways a mystery to me:

-if one's partner sleeps with someone else, they flip out

-yet if s/he has a deep conversation with someone else, that's perfectly cool, b/c they're "just friends"

 

well - sex is a physical act. a deep conversation is a 100 times more attaching and meaningful - so why the hell do people flip out over the sex & not over mental closeness?

 

i dunno - i think there are some very vague lines here, and its up to each couple to balance them out. also, the balance may not be the same at different times. also, having to balance it out all the time may keep the chemistry alive. ("uncertainty is the essential ingredient of romance" - approximate quote from 'the importance of being earnest' by Wilde).

 

just some thoughts,

-yes

 

PS sorry for the lack of capitals... next time!

[midori]

What you're talking about, Flower, completely violates point #2 that I mentioned. The so-called "friend" clearly has other things in mind. She's not really a friend at all, certainly not to the wife. Her "friendship" is completely inappropriate -- because clearly it's designed to end up being more than just a friendship. Regardless of whether the husband is aware of it and thinks he can handle it, the mature, reasonable, and responsible thing to do is to cut her off completely. Best for her in the long run too, so she can stop seeking out unrealistic relationships and instead find a man of her own.

 

I think in such situations, at a minimum, the opposite-sex friend has to be a real friend to one's partner. So if it's a woman, she should be socializing with both the husband and the wife -- even if her primary contact was/is with the husband (like they're old friends or work colleagues or whatever). She shouldn't be trying to socialize with the just the husband, she shouldn't be trying to engage him in flirtatious exchanges. That's just not cool. And you have to ask, if it's all just "innocent fun" what, exactly, is she getting out of it? Knowing that a married man finds her attractive and fun to flirt with? OK ... but that ego-trip comes at the expense of insulting his wife, so how can she consider herself a friend to them both?

 

I remember your post from last week and I think you should make it clear to your husband that from your perspective that woman is no friend, and if he permits her to worm her way into his life he will be insulting you and putting a strain on your marriage.

[flower]

Hi Midori, thanks for your message. I would love to cut ties with this lady. However, I wonder how I can bring this subject up to my husband. How to tell him, "I think J likes and expects more from you than you thought and I would like you to cut ties with her if she does ask you out for dinner or any similar event".

As you said, you have seen males who are clueless and kidding with themselves about relationships with their friends who are ladies. My husband has told me, "J is pretty, many men like but not his type as she is too active and her face is sharp whilst he prefers round-faced like me." I hope he does not belong to the category of "clueless" males, kidding himself and trying to kid me as well. J has not replied to my email till today. Wonder what's spinning in that pretty head of hers. If you know of an ingenious way of how I can tell my husband, pls share with me. I thought how telling him, "if one day,J ask you for a homestay in our house again, I would pack my bags and go if you agree without my approval even if you think it is in the grounds of friendship. " Does this drive home the point of my concern or does it sound too much?

 

Tony: thanks for your reply too (^.^)

[midori]

I think you should speak directly to your husband about your feelings regarding J.

 

Obvioulsy you're in a different culture than what most Americans including me are familiar with, so I can't say what would be the most appropriate way to broach the subject. But you should absolutely bring it up. Issuing extreme ultimatums when nothing has happened yet would perhaps make you appear to be a bit unreasonable. Perhaps instead you should say something like, "as a woman I know that J is hoping for more from you. I respect your integrity and trust you, of course. But her behavior is disgusting and I am tired of having to wonder what she's going to try next. I don't want to have anything more to do with her, and I'm asking you to do the same. She may be harmless because you aren't interested in her, but she's irritating and persistent. It's rude to say the least. She is not welcome in our home."

 

I'm a little concerned that you don't seem to have any way of dealing with this. To me, a mainstream American, this is a no-brainer: speak up and put your foot down re this J person. But if the typical marriage in your culture doesn't involve women speaking honestly as respected equals, then surely there are other ways of getting things done. Perhaps you should speak to your mother-in-law or another relative about this? Or a trusted family friend? It's hard to give you appropriate advice that will work in your situation.

 

Returning to the theme of this thread -- and let's keep focused on that here -- I think that women or men who have clear designs on a married person can NOT be considered friends. Nor are they harmless. If you have drawn your husband's attention to this fact already, it's hard to label him as "clueless" .. perhas he's being willfully blind. You have to ask yourself why.

[EnigmaXOXO]

Midori,

 

There is little I can add to this discussion that you and Tony have not already covered, except to say that I agree whole-heartedly. But as usual…I’m going to try anyway!

 

While same-sex friendships are both normal and healthy, opposite-sex friendships can pose a real problem when one enters into an intimate relationship. Particular if that “friend” was once an ex-lover or past romantic interest.

 

I also don’t buy the excuse that one or the other is “naïve” or “clueless” as to the intentions of their so-called platonic friend. More likely, one or the other “friend” still holds a spark for the other while the second half of that equation is enjoying the ego boost from all the attention…Or perhaps is just unwilling to let go of their past.

 

People who enter into committed relationships without putting closure on certain aspects of their “single” life are not good candidates for long-term partners. Loyalty, along with trust, are necessary components for building a strong foundation where healthy relationships are concerned. And that so-called “platonic friend” hiding in the shadows will only impede on the couple’s progress to establish that bond of loyalty and trust which is so necessary for the survival of that relationship.

 

Like you, I have often considered this issue. Particularly now when people seem to be so open and lax about their interpersonal relationships. I look to my own parents who have been married for over 30 years; and to my partner’s parents whose marriage has also survived the test of time. And neither of them has ever pursued opposite-sex friendships outside of their marriage. As a matter of fact, I would be APPAULED to think that my father had a lady-friend, or that my mother had a guy-friend on the side, who they spent time with while not in each other’s company.

 

Just the thought of it makes my hair stand on end!!

 

Perhaps I’m a bit of a prude, or not quite as “enlightened” as I’d like to think…but I actually have friends who nurture opposite-sex friendships outside of their marriages, and in every case, that ‘platonic friendship’ has evolved into a sexual affair. When there’s an argument with the husband, the first thing they do is run to arms of their male “buddy” who understands them…and that emotional connection in all three cases eventually evolved into a sexual one.

 

So much for the ‘trust’ and ‘open-mindedness’ of their poor gullible husband’s, eh?

[flower]

Thks for reply. Asian families may be more conservative but it still boils down to individual families. New development. This Sat, there is an embassy party which I can ask my Jap friends to join in. I was left in charge so of course, I did not extend it to J.

 

Last evening, my husband asked me who I invited and if J was included as she did a favour for us previously and he thinks we should meet her somehow to pass her a present or sorts.

 

I could not keep my silence anymore. I told him, "J is my sensitive spot and I am not comfortable with her presence around us. I would rather buy her a big gift and send to her". He said that I have some biasis against J and was quite worked up that I did not trust him though he tried to come back for dinner after work often.

 

No longer "docile" as being pressed at my hot button, I turned fierce and said twice that "I had my grounds" and told him about the contents of "that deleted email" sent by J. He then understood my anxiety and said that it takes 2 hands to clap and we should leave J alone. But what I felt was that there seem a lack of assurance and comforting words from him to pacify my worries. (or am I too sensitive?). I also had to push for the change of guarantor myself, he did not automatically offer to help do it. :-(

 

(By the way,the favour J did us - The background is to enter Japan, one needs a local guarantor. At that point earlier this year, only J volunteered to be my guarantor. I did tell my husband about my discomfort of her being so but there was no one else and we were in rush for time and he said I was being overly suspicious again. So, I agreed unwilling. Now, seeing this flow of things, I want to search for another Japanese guarantor to replace her at all costs so as not to owe her this favour anymore).

 

What are your views now based on the turn of events now that my husband is NO LONGER "CLUELESS". I value your views. Thks all esp Midori and Tony!

[Arcane]

Read this - http://www.intellectualwhores.com/masterladder.html

[midori]

Arcane: The site you suggest doesn't really address the topic at hand, which is having opposite sex friends while in a relationship. Why not start a thread for bitter misogynists?

[Arcane]

Haha. I'm pretty sure the site was intended as a joke.

[midori]

I checked out the FAQ section and it was a bit coy as to its satirical intention. The whole thing seems to have a tinge of genuine anti-woman bitterness to it. Maybe it was too subtle for me.

 

Sometimes pieces in The Onion seem almost real to me; if I didn't know they were in the Onion I might think that they were for real. Call me gullible.