on ulitmatums

[burningman]

In case you didn't read my other thread, I'm here because wife got drunk and "accidentally" (haa!) slept with her boss's boss. He works in the same office as her and he is there approx 8 days a month. She has a good career, and has worked very hard to get where she is. The guy won't speak to her. Financially, we can afford for her to quit with some pre-planning. It will not be easy for her to find a comparable job. While I hate to take all that she's worked for away from her, she is the one who did this, and I'm not sure that I can or should have to deal with her going in there everyday. Ultimatums can also build resentment. But frankly, I don't care. I think she needs to quit the job or quit me. Am I going overboard here?

[JackJack]

While I hate to take all that she's worked for away from her, she is the one who did this, and I'm not sure that I can or should have to deal with her going in there everyday. Ultimatums can also build resentment. But frankly, I don't care. I think she needs to quit the job or quit me. Am I going overboard here?

 

 

 

Ultimatiums can work, however you have to be willing to follow through with what you say you are going to do. Otherwise they will just see you as blowing in the wind and wont take you serioulsy. If you say it can build resentment and that you do NOT care, then why bother? Maybe you both could enter into some marriage counseling?

[abeliever]

I agree if you give her one then stick to it. Well you have to want her to quit it. It does sound fishy to me too. I am a women and let me tell you if a man took advantage of me while drunk or not, I would not want to see or be near him. No matter what kind of job or amount of money I made. I find it far fetched that is the real story.

 

Read threds maybe on 2nd to 4th page there was a thread I started "why do they lie to your face when caught cheating (something like that) and see the responses. Overwhelmingly, everyone says that their SO lied knowing you had half some and even all the truth and they will still lie. So they can continue to do the same thing without messing up their game plan.

 

I know this is hard. To think that your marriage has come to this and she can be this deceiving but I would almost bet the farm its a fabricated lie. She had to come up with something to explain why she was coming home at 2am and being married. Time to wake up! Cheaters never tell the truth. Its a fact, not fiction.

 

Hope it helps. Stay focused when your hurting this bad it is hard to keep alert to what is going on around you. This is the best time to put feelings aside (as much as you can) and keep your ears open.

 

abeliever

[curiousnycgirl]

Truth is it would not take that much planning for her to be out of work for a while. If her boss's boss slept with her and now refuses to speak to her, that is sexual harrassment. She should be able to get a nice little settlement/severance package before she moves on. That should tied you guys over while she looks for a new job.

 

I agree her issues at work in this particular situation should not be brought into your home. However are you really ready to forgive her for the cheating? If you truly are, then you wouldn't truly be willing to walk out if she doesn't quit the job.

 

I'm sorry you are going through this - and really hope it gets better and works out well for you.

[burningman]

Curious: you make good points. I'm not sure that's a winnable sexual harrassment case. I will run it by the attorney. But the sexual harrassment tightrope is being stretched thin for sure.

**********

I can forgive her, but I don't know how easy it's going to be if the job situation is in my mind every day, or at least the days that he is there. She is still in some wierd state of denial and thinks this guy is her friend. She's been waiting for, and I think will eventually go demand an apology/explanation, and we know where that could lead...

[ICallsEmAsISeesEm]

Let me get this straight - your wife drinks herself into oblivion, has CONSENSUAL SEX with the big boss, and now she has a SEXUAL HARRASSMENT lawsuit she can file?????

 

What is WRONG with you people???

 

She's an ADULT - responsible for her OWN actions and the choices SHE made. Gotta love this blameless society - nobody's responsible for their OWN stuff, right? Everyone ELSE is responsible for her skuzzy behavior. Yeah, that's it. And gee, let's get rich off a Sexual Harrassment lawsuit by screwing the insurance company while we're at it.

 

Do you people hear yourselves?

 

BurningMan - here's a newsflash for ya. Your wife acted irresponsibly and is choosing to BLAME it on booze (here we go with the BLAMELESS bullsh*t again). Truth is, she PUT herself into a position like that by opening her mouth and DRINKING like a fish. No one poured it down her throat. And quite honestly, anyone whose ignorant enough to ALLOW herself to get drunk when she's in the company of MANAGEMENT who could make or break her is a complete FOOL. That's professional suicide.

 

Just for starters, have her own her sh*t, ok? Just for starters. Stop blaming it on the booze, stop blaming it on her boss and stop thinking you're going to get rich off of a frivolous lawsuit you have NO RIGHT to file.

 

SHE CHOSE TO DO IT.

[LifesontheUp]

Curious: you make good points. I'm not sure that's a winnable sexual harrassment case. I will run it by the attorney. But the sexual harrassment tightrope is being stretched thin for sure.

**********

I can forgive her, but I don't know how easy it's going to be if the job situation is in my mind every day, or at least the days that he is there. She is still in some wierd state of denial and thinks this guy is her friend. She's been waiting for, and I think will eventually go demand an apology/explanation, and we know where that could lead...

 

Wow.......having read your other posts and the fact that your wife is not owning up to her part in this you are going to run a sexual harrassment case against the guy? Have you mentioned a harrassment suit to your wife? If so what was her reaction and have you thought that the OM could counter claim?

 

I think you need to seriously even re consider taking this to your attorney. Hell she's SO spinning you a story that doesn't really make any sense. Thats why you're on here surely.

 

Sorry but if the story she has spun is to be believed then I don't know of any woman that would want to be in the same town as him let alone the same office and still see him as a friend.

 

If you want to issue an ultimatum, which I would probably do if I was in your shoes I would tell her you have set up an appointment to take a lie detector test with a view to then making a sexual harrassment claim against him. I think her reaction will tell you all you need to know.

 

Sorry but your wife is no innocent party in this and you need to give her a wake up call. She's obviously not going to come clean on whats been going on. So if you want to get to the bottom of this make a stand. Otherwise this will eat away at you day in day out.

[shadowofman]

Forget the sexual harrassment suit.

Assert your possession of her and make her quit.

[Trialbyfire]

I wouldn't make it so easy on her. I would first consult your attorney about having a quick chat with her boss. Then I would have a chat with her boss, tell him that she considers their little tete-a-tete to be a case of sexual harassment and see how he reacts. I'm guessing his reaction will be a little different than expected....

 

Make sure she doesn't know what you're doing so the two can collaborate on a fairy tale.

 

I see absolutely no reason to hide an affair in any way. Neither party involved deserves to be protected. It should be blown wide open for the world to see, boxer shorts and push-up bras waving in the breeze...

[Phateless]

She cheated on you. I would leave her.

[shadowofman]

No, no, you should tie her down and have sex with someone else, right in front of her.

[Desperate HH]

OK, first keep things separate. You have marriage problems, and there have been a number of suggestions. I won't offer an opinion.

 

Second, your wife has workplace problems. Now let's get this straight (quoting excerpts from the OP, rearranged into a narrative):

she's 33.

manager for a branch office of a large, large corporate america company

She has a good career, and has worked very hard to get where she is. It will not be easy for her to find a comparable job.

 

The company actually promotes the frat boy, party down, get bombed mentality. There is some level of her wanting to be "one of the boys" here, at least as far as the partying part goes.

 

the guy in charge of the whole state . . . up there on the totem pole . . . walking by his office and he tells her he is having a barbque Saturday night and asks "would you like to come" (not to be confused with "you guys" or "you all") .

 

she thought it would be beneficial for her career to go.

She asks him to email her address and he says no, no... here I'll just write it down on a piece of paper for you.

 

She gets to the barbque and there is no food.

the [Executive], head of HR and his girlfriend, and another mgr there and that's all . . . hanging out and talking and drinking

She decides it's time to go if she's driving and they all collectively convinced her stay.

[Executive] begins mixing her one margarita after another.

they are the last two up [unclear, disputed, or blacked out events, then] shirt off on couch with him.

 

[Executive] will no longer speak to her and hasn't since that night.

She swears she wouldn't have stayed if it didn't appear to be a safe work-like situation.

I don't think I can deal with knowing these two work together in the same office. I think she needs to quit the job or quit me.

I am not a lawyer, but this appears to me as clear and damning an example of workplace sexual harrassment as you will find. It doesn't matter a bit if she wanted to sleep with him or not, this was a work-related function. And the complicity of a HR executive means the company can't write him off as "one bad apple". It's an issue of corporate culture and policy. And if your lawyer has not yet been gathering information, interviewing coworkers, and generally getting ready for a conversation with corporate counsel (NOT HR!), he is incompetent.

 

Seems to me she should end up with a year or two pay, and everybody else at the party fired.

[curiousnycgirl]

My point exactly! The sexual harrassment issue really is not tied to the fact that they slept together, it is tied to the fact that now the big boss is treating her differently/poorly.

 

I do not think a lawsuit is the answer to the issues here, I was only suggesting it as a means to get her out with a bit of cash so that they do not get financially strapped by the situation.

 

It is critical that they work on the issues within their marriage that led to the cheating - apologies if I did not make that clear.

[Mr. Lucky]

I do not think a lawsuit is the answer to the issues here, I was only suggesting it as a means to get her out with a bit of cash so that they do not get financially strapped by the situation.

By blaming the company for their consentual actions? Why not just get a mask and a gun and walk in and rob the place? That would solve their cash flow issues also...

 

Mr. Lucky

[cj1988]

So, she finally admitted to sleeping with him or is she still I do not remember baby, but my tampon was still in.....I am lost !

[Desperate HH]

By blaming the company for their consentual actions? Mr. Lucky

 

The company created a hostile environment. She was invited to a company function, under false pretenses, where executives (not ONE executive, but TWO) encouraged over-consumption of alcohol, and sexual activity.

 

Her career is now in jeopardy as a result.

 

In terms of relationships, the actions may have been consensual. From the company's perspective, and legal obligations, such activity between a superior and a subordinate is, by definition, NOT consensual. TWO executives knew this, and were present on the occasion.

 

She perceived this event as important to her career, and was invited in the context of her employment. It was an extension of the workday. The company's executives "encouraged" her to stay after she indicated she would like to leave, and served her excessive amounts of alcohol. If she had driven home after this party, and had an accident, the company would certainly be liable.

 

I am sure that the two executives present have received training in sexual harassment, and in the company's policies. They understood that, as managers, they, and the company, are responsible for what goes on. And especially, they understand that if there is a "romantic" connection between a superior and a subordinate, it is the superior's responsibility to assure that it cannot be perceived as creating a "hostile environment", for her, or for anyone else in the office.

 

 

As I said, none of this may be relevent to the marital issues.

[bish]

In case you didn't read my other thread, I'm here because wife got drunk and "accidentally" (haa!) slept with her boss's boss. He works in the same office as her and he is there approx 8 days a month. She has a good career, and has worked very hard to get where she is. The guy won't speak to her. Financially, we can afford for her to quit with some pre-planning. It will not be easy for her to find a comparable job. While I hate to take all that she's worked for away from her, she is the one who did this, and I'm not sure that I can or should have to deal with her going in there everyday. Ultimatums can also build resentment. But frankly, I don't care. I think she needs to quit the job or quit me. Am I going overboard here?

 

Ultimatums can build resentment? Uh...not more so that cheating.

 

and was she the one that said she "accidentally" slept with her boss?

if so there is a big line of bullcrap I've ever heard.

 

Actually, if she has a good career...she can find work elsewhere. Her staying in contact with her boss will be detrimental to the marriage...as if her spreading her legs for him wasn't already enough so.

 

So she either finds work elsewhere where she can use her career skills...or you divorce her and take half her stuff.

[bish]

Curious: you make good points. I'm not sure that's a winnable sexual harrassment case. I will run it by the attorney. But the sexual harrassment tightrope is being stretched thin for sure.

**********

I can forgive her, but I don't know how easy it's going to be if the job situation is in my mind every day, or at least the days that he is there. She is still in some wierd state of denial and thinks this guy is her friend. She's been waiting for, and I think will eventually go demand an apology/explanation, and we know where that could lead...

 

I'd probably divorce a wife if she screwed her boss and then tried to cop out by filing sexual harrassment. I wouldn't be able to take the social backlash. "oh...theres the guy whose wife spread 'em for her boss willingly, yet filed harrassment against the guy after the fact."

 

Oh, and your wife doesn't deserve any kind of apology from this guy whatsoever. She did the deed with him willingly and betrayed you. If any apologies are in order, she needs to forget contact with the boss, quit her job and be kissing YOUR ass big time and apologizing.

[bish]

The company created a hostile environment. She was invited to a company function, under false pretenses, where executives (not ONE executive, but TWO) encouraged over-consumption of alcohol, and sexual activity.

 

Her career is now in jeopardy as a result.

 

In terms of relationships, the actions may have been consensual. From the company's perspective, and legal obligations, such activity between a superior and a subordinate is, by definition, NOT consensual. TWO executives knew this, and were present on the occasion.

 

She perceived this event as important to her career

 

Alot of women who screw their bosses do.

[Desperate HH]

Alot of women who screw their bosses do.

And the boss, and the company, understand that, and the risks involved. The boss, and the company, knew that they would be financially liable. They made their choice. He's the boss, and he could have kept his pants on.

 

The unbelievable thing, to me, is that there was a HR exec there.

 

The real reason for making a big deal of this is to let others working for the company know that screwing their boss is NOT the way to the top. And to let the bosses know that screwing subordinates is their fastest way out the door.

[Tomcat33]

Make her quit her job or give her and ultimatum re her job and you are on a rapid downward spirall into destruction. You will never EVER overcome the betrayal she did to you and your marriage, and she will NEVER overcome the fact that you made her quit her job after how hard you both worked to have either.

If you ask her for that kind of ultimatum you are on a path of massive destruction and you don't even see it.

She may agree to quit to do what she needs to get past the infidelity but in time she will resent you, add to that the resenment on your part for being cheated on and I really don't see any hope at all for the two of you to work things out. NONE whatsoever.

 

If she takes it upon herself to quit that's a different story, then you are not giving her a reason to resent you and it might work because you can work towards a common goal and the power is still yours.

[burningman]

I've read all of your comments. Thank you. And think to a degree you are all correct.

************

The company created a hostile environment. She was invited to a company function, under false pretenses, where executives (not ONE executive, but TWO) encouraged over-consumption of alcohol, and sexual activity.

*************

She still did what she did. She still is claiming a blackout. The boss's boss and expecially the HR person also had a duty to put her in a cab and send her home, and my wife had duty to honor her vows. There is no sexual harrassment in my opinion or hers, but obviously she was mislead and there is some abuse of power. I certainly do not believe the sh*t she is telling me, and I do hold her responsible for what happened. I recognize everone's role in this. I'm certain it was one time occurrance based on the evidence.

***

The attorney was consulted for preventative measures. What I forgot to mention... is that when DDay happened, she called her immediate boss (the guy between her and the big guy), and told him she wasn't coming in and she told him why. He is required to report the thing to HR and he did... he reported it to the guy who was at the party. HR guy called my wife and advised, "don't worry honey, we'll pretend all of this never happened and we won't even document it for you!" Obviously a huge concern.

[Cobra_X30]

The company created a hostile environment. She was invited to a company function, under false pretenses, where executives (not ONE executive, but TWO) encouraged over-consumption of alcohol, and sexual activity.

 

Her career is now in jeopardy as a result.

 

In terms of relationships, the actions may have been consensual. From the company's perspective, and legal obligations, such activity between a superior and a subordinate is, by definition, NOT consensual. TWO executives knew this, and were present on the occasion.

 

She perceived this event as important to her career, and was invited in the context of her employment. It was an extension of the workday. The company's executives "encouraged" her to stay after she indicated she would like to leave, and served her excessive amounts of alcohol. If she had driven home after this party, and had an accident, the company would certainly be liable.

 

I am sure that the two executives present have received training in sexual harassment, and in the company's policies. They understood that, as managers, they, and the company, are responsible for what goes on. And especially, they understand that if there is a "romantic" connection between a superior and a subordinate, it is the superior's responsibility to assure that it cannot be perceived as creating a "hostile environment", for her, or for anyone else in the office.

 

As I said, none of this may be relevent to the marital issues.

 

Ok, so thats probably the best argument I've heard on this site!

 

Burning, you need to get on this sexual harassment bandwagon! If your wife doesnt follow suit, then you know something is up.

[burningman]

Also, Tomcat, I agree with what you said. I think she has to have enough respect for me and our marriage to not want to go in there. I'm not saying "give your notice now" either. But a plan to get her out would be nice. And there is a letter being sent from her to HR guys boss. Things roll up hill in these cases and they may just transfer him somewhere.

***********

She has been 1000 miles away doing some training (I hope) and she decided to turn the phone off last night and not call me when she got back to the hotel room after dinner, like she said she would. Not exactly thinking about rebuilding the trust with that move. So I asked her about it and she claimed her battery was dead. I thanked her for the half-truth, told her if she wants this to work she needs to make herself available to me. Then I spent all day realizing that this is MY LIFE. It was mine before I met her, and it's gonna be mine now. She called me from the airport a little bit ago and I explained to her I was done. We can split up now, no questions asked, or she can come home and try to explain to me why this doesn't make sense. I told her I can get past the incident, but I can't take the lying any more. 17 days before Dday and 17 days since. That's a lot of lies. I don't need it, I don't deserve it, and I'm not going to listen to it. I told her if one more piece of BS, half-truths, lies, "I forgots", "I didn't think that part mattered," WTF-ever comes out of her mouth... I'm out. If I find out next week, next month, next yr that she hasn't told me everything, I'm out. And everyone here knows the truth always gets out. So I'm loading my backpack now. We have a vaca home 2 hrs away and I'll go there for the weekend and regroup, or she's coming clean now. I'm done with this sh*t. She's also going to agree that the job situation needs to change. No ultimatums at this time... but a plan w/ deadlines needs to be in place soon. Starting with the letter to the company. I can't even begin to tell you how good it felt to write that.

[burningman]

Cobra, your insight has been very helpful over the last few days. If I am still here tomorrow and not gone, I think my wife needs to read all of this too. I'm not totally ruling out sexual harrassment suit, I just don't think it's the thing to do right now. I recognize where desparate is coming from.