on ulitmatums

[Tomcat33]

If you think you are intellectually superior to anyone, you are sorely mistaken.

 

I don't "think" I am I know I am.

[burningman]

ok... you two please stop arguing. On the subject of ultimatums and demands, now that my wife is out of denial, she is fully accepting accountability for her actions and we both now know that she has some issues she needs to work on. We as a couple do to, we just haven't figured them out. More on this later.

**********************

She also recognizes the company's role in this and is composing a letter to make some demands of them. I'm now wrestling with the issue of trying to sort out what I need to demand from her and what to let her figure out on her own. For example, my packed bags ended her lies. Simple demand and a simple result. She is voluntarily telling me things about herself that I did not know in order to let me in. She also is now understanding OM leaves the office or she does, or I go. No ultimatum from me on this one, she figured it out on her own. What I am seeing now is that Tomcat was right when you stated that ultimaums are no where near as effective as mutual understanding, and Cobra was right too when you mentioned that consequences get results. The question is when to play the consequence card, and this one of the reasons for MC. First, mutual dicussion and reason, then if you realize WS isn't getting it, you think to yourself it's your life and you have standards, and you won't acccept less. What a freaking confusing rollercoaster of a mess.

******************

BTW- today was my first real day of "Horrifying Imagery Day." What a lovely treat to go through those visions in my head. It ultimately landed me on my knees looking at my reflection in the porcelian. There are elements of PTSD in all of this.

[bish]

BTW- today was my first real day of "Horrifying Imagery Day." What a lovely treat to go through those visions in my head. It ultimately landed me on my knees looking at my reflection in the porcelian. There are elements of PTSD in all of this.

 

Oh I know all too well about the horrifying imagery...thats why there was no way I was gonna stay with a tramp like that.

 

But you may have an opportunity here....and this is mainly in jest...but then again..not really.

 

You have your wife sue her employer...get a boatload of money in a settlement...divorce her, then take half that settlement with you.

 

Talk about coming out of it smelling like a rose. get rid of a cheater AND get some damn good money out of it!!!

 

I like it!!

[Tomcat33]

**********************

She also recognizes the company's role in this and is composing a letter to make some demands of them. I'm now wrestling with the issue of trying to sort out what I need to demand from her and what to let her figure out on her own. For example, my packed bags ended her lies. Simple demand and a simple result. She is voluntarily telling me things about herself that I did not know in order to let me in. She also is now understanding OM leaves the office or she does, or I go. No ultimatum from me on this one, she figured it out on her own. What I am seeing now is that Tomcat was right when you stated that ultimaums are no where near as effective as mutual understanding, and Cobra was right too when you mentioned that consequences get results. The question is when to play the consequence card, and this one of the reasons for MC. First, mutual dicussion and reason, then if you realize WS isn't getting it, you think to yourself it's your life and you have standards, and you won't acccept less. What a freaking confusing rollercoaster of a mess.

******************

.

 

I am very happy to hear that you took up some of what we suggested and it worked for you. Now you have gained power again, despite all the sorrow that you are feeling and the hardships of what you are faced with you have gained power in the situation again, you gave yourself respect and prompted your partner to step up to plate and take her own responsibilites in the matter. It is a very simple action what you did but it saved you from getting deeper under her grips. It was a smart move and one that has obviously worked in your favour. I am glad this small step worked for you because now the ball is in your court. If you keep communicating to her what you want out of this recovery allowing her to own up to her duties, then you can aim towards a mutual solution that comes from the person's own will and needs not from the presssure of another.

 

Time will tell if your situation can and will improve and it will be entirely up to the two of you to make it happen, but at least you have one less worry in that you know for a fact she is there because she wants it.

 

I'm sorry for the last part of what you described, I know how horrifying that can be, I couldn't even look at my significant other at the time knowing what he did with another woman. It is extremely trying, and traumatic. But you will let your instincts guide you.

 

Lastly times like these allow you to re-learn a lot about yourself as well, the kinds of things your character will allow the kinds you won't. It has catapulted you into an introspective journey, which more often than not we are not ready to embark on but we do and the end result is all about what you discover for yourself and who you want to become next.

[burningman]

Well said tomcat. thanks for the encouragement

[burningman]

...and bish, don't think for a second this hasn't already crossed my mind. If we don't make it I'll try to get her half too if it goes that far.

******************

so part of this rollercoaster that's killing me is that she is not recognizing that I need a little extra re-assurance right now. A friendly phone call to voluntarily check in for example. I talked to her today at 12 or so and she advised she might have to work late, but as soon as she knew she would call me. She was in route from another office to hers at the time and not yet been to her office all day. She should have gotten off a few minutes ago and still no calls. No big deal normally. BUT THINKS ARE NOT F'ING NORMAL RIGHT NOW! We've talked about this stuff too. She has no clue that it doesn't take much to set my imagination in motion. She'll eventually call me and tell me that she was so busy at work she forgot to call. Talk about prioritizing (your way out the door). There will not be any acceptable excuses for this stuff except life/death situation. And I don't think I'm being too hard on her right now. I think I'm going to go to the bookstore and come home whenever I damn well feel like it. Or maybe the bar.

[reboot]

so part of this rollercoaster that's killing me is that she is not recognizing that I need a little extra re-assurance right now. A friendly phone call to voluntarily check in for example. I talked to her today at 12 or so and she advised she might have to work late, but as soon as she knew she would call me. She was in route from another office to hers at the time and not yet been to her office all day. She should have gotten off a few minutes ago and still no calls. No big deal normally. BUT THINKS ARE NOT F'ING NORMAL RIGHT NOW! We've talked about this stuff too. She has no clue that it doesn't take much to set my imagination in motion. She'll eventually call me and tell me that she was so busy at work she forgot to call. Talk about prioritizing (your way out the door). There will not be any acceptable excuses for this stuff except life/death situation. And I don't think I'm being too hard on her right now. I think I'm going to go to the bookstore and come home whenever I damn well feel like it. Or maybe the bar.

It is entirely normal for you to feel this way. You need to "splain" this to her in terms she can't misunderstand. Like, this is not optional, this is a requirement, if you can't offer me this hit the door running. I'm serious. At the stage you're at now, and will be for some time to come, you simply cannot control your imagination. She has to be completely transparent.

 

My wife finally got it. She checks in with me to the point of being a pest sometimes, but I don't mind.

[burningman]

Yeah. like I said, she just called, and boy was she busy today. She's on her way to the gym and will be home in a bit. I unloaded on her, which of course is pointless. Called back and apologized for unloading. I guess we're going to sit down and I"m going to have to draw a flow chart on what she needs to do regain my trust? Is this normal? I mean it's not even close to what heftysmurf is dealing with at all, but geez. Kinda makes you wonder if the WS's had any respect for their marriages anyway considering what got us all to this website. I went through the "Not just friends book" and highlighted this section for her.

[Trialbyfire]

Keep in mind that check-ins are easy to get around. It's on her time, when it's convenient for her...

 

You have to decide what are non-negotiables and stand firm with your hard boundaries. In return, you also have to learn to trust her again.

 

You decide if it's worth it. Otherwise, you'll continue to erode on your own self-esteem by being her jailer.

[bish]

...and bish, don't think for a second this hasn't already crossed my mind. If we don't make it I'll try to get her half too if it goes that far.

 

Thats the spirit...keep those options open...don't let her walk all over you and whatever you do...don't let her con you into thinking she is the victim...only victim here is YOU...not that you want victim status.

 

so part of this rollercoaster that's killing me is that she is not recognizing that I need a little extra re-assurance right now. A friendly phone call to voluntarily check in for example. I talked to her today at 12 or so and she advised she might have to work late

 

oh ya...thats really trying to put good thoughts in your mind...gets f#cked at work...so she is gonna work late. Sure I know..people have to work late..but considering the circumstances...she should do whatever she has to to bring work home....not do it at the office.

 

 

She was in route from another office to hers at the time and not yet been to her office all day. She should have gotten off a few minutes ago and still no calls. No big deal normally. BUT THINKS ARE NOT F'ING NORMAL RIGHT NOW!

 

so far getting a settlement from her employer and divorce are starting to look pretty damn good.

 

 

We've talked about this stuff too. She has no clue that it doesn't take much to set my imagination in motion.

 

maybe if she were cheated on right back she'd know EXACTLY what runs through a BS's mind.....no I'm not suggesting you cheat on her to make her see...but geez...what is it with these freakin' cheaters that they don't get the damage they have really done?

 

Sounds as if your "wife" doesn't really care about what you are going through...only that SHE feels used. well boo hoo.

 

 

She'll eventually call me and tell me that she was so busy at work she forgot to call. Talk about prioritizing (your way out the door). There will not be any acceptable excuses for this stuff except life/death situation. And I don't think I'm being too hard on her right now. I think I'm going to go to the bookstore and come home whenever I damn well feel like it. Or maybe the bar.

 

No you are not being hard on her right now. I don't believe there is anything, barring physical abuse, that would be considered to hard on a cheater.

 

Does she think you are being hard on her? if she is...I only have one thing to say.....boo f#cking hoo.

[burningman]

Ground rule are set, and she really did choose and help decided them:

1) no drinking period if boss man is in the room (or the next room or whatever)

2) if he's not there, w/ people who are and equal and above you, 4 beer max and call to from the hotel room when you get back

3) 11pm curfew whe out of town.. period!

4) If out w/ females only, then no rules. I'll give her that much rope...

5) If out w/ the people that work under her, I'll give her that rope too.

6) Every day between 4:00 and 4:30 she calls me to advise if she will work late or not and we will deal together with the circumstances

7) I call her 2 or 3 times (like I always have) and she calls back within the hour

8) rationalizing that "one other person who didn't fit the category" is an automatic failure and unacceptable

9) And finally, no staying out overnight unless it is directly related to a business trip (which are few and far between)

*******************

I did let her tell me what she thinks is fair. When she violates them... and I suspect she might. we'll cross that bridge.... And for all of you that have had your input on this, we did negotiate the rules. No ultimatums. I will say she pushed back on "drinking when the guy isn't present" and this isn't so much a drinking problem as it the company's promotion of "playing hard." Also, you guys/gals feel free to let me know if I should be in another forum for R. I think we're making baby steps, but I still want to respect the forums. And I I'm still slam in the middle of infidelity roller coaster right now.

**********************

and bish/cobra... don't think for a second I am caving in. Bags are still at the front door. She's come clean on almost every angle, but still won't admit her decision to hang that night was simply for attention that she thought she could get away with. I figure I can wait 2yrs for IC/MC or just keep hammering. I'm polishing the hammer as we speak. I'm going to get in trouble for saying this, but as much as I know IC/MC is crucial, It's also a stalling/denial tactic in some cases. I'm now seeing everything you all have written. IC/MC for months or packed bags? It's a tough call, no matter how much we've all argued this. Some lines just have to be drawn in the sand. They just have to. Even if you are willing to move those lines a little every day, the lines are drawn. I'm going upstairs to snuggle with my wife and honor my vows, bags packed, lines drawn and all. I know who I am. And tomorrow I will wake up and ride the rollercoaster again, and my posts may be a total mess. But one thing I promise you all, lines are drawn and bags remain packed. I hope one day I can give back to you all what you've helped me understand.

*******************

And more thing that hurts...... Heftysmurf, if you are reading this I have felt your pain more than most. I can't and won't compare my situation to yours, yours is unique and dire. I don't have children. But I hope I can give you lines in the sand, Brother. You've got to have those lines in the sand for yourself... at some point it has to become about "us" and for you, your daughter's health and welll being. If someone else can summarize this into his thread, please, please do that for him.

[bish]

Ground rule are set, and she really did choose and help decided them:

1) no drinking period if boss man is in the room (or the next room or whatever)

 

Uh..how bout no drinking period? Whether boss man is in the room or not...cuz if she is drinking...other men she can do could be around.

 

2) if he's not there, w/ people who are and equal and above you, 4 beer max and call to from the hotel room when you get back

 

Is there a reason she needs a hotel room for a company party? And why aren't you with her? I say when the party is over she gets her asss home.

 

3) 11pm curfew whe out of town.. period!

 

Now I like this one.

 

4) If out w/ females only, then no rules. I'll give her that much rope...

 

Uh if she is out w/females...you can still better bet men will be around.

Now it depends on how she is out with them...if she is out shopping or going to a movie...ok...going to a bar or club...out of the question.

 

5) If out w/ the people that work under her, I'll give her that rope too.

 

??? You don't think she could spread 'em for a subordinate?

 

8) rationalizing that "one other person who didn't fit the category" is an automatic failure and unacceptable

 

Not sure what you mean here.

 

9) And finally, no staying out overnight unless it is directly related to a business trip (which are few and far between)

 

This is a given...no married person needs to stay out all night partying....or partying period for that matter.

 

I did let her tell me what she thinks is fair.

 

What on the list did she say was NOT fair? Anything?

 

When she violates them... and I suspect she might. we'll cross that bridge....

 

Well if you suspect she might...whats the point in staying with her? She obviously is not trustworthy...so why bother?

 

 

And for all of you that have had your input on this, we did negotiate the rules. No ultimatums. I will say she pushed back on "drinking when the guy isn't present" and this isn't so much a drinking problem as it the company's promotion of "playing hard." Also, you guys/gals feel free to let me know if I should be in another forum for R. I think we're making baby steps, but I still want to respect the forums. And I I'm still slam in the middle of infidelity roller coaster right now.

 

Oh of course you are. its not easy to deal with. I can tell you that I feel much better after dumping my cheating XW. She can be someone elses problem.

 

 

and bish/cobra... don't think for a second I am caving in. Bags are still at the front door.

 

good for you ...don't take any shiit off her.

 

If she gives you shiit, you just need to remind her that she is in no position to complain.

[Racquel Colette]

Let me get this straight - your wife drinks herself into oblivion, has CONSENSUAL SEX with the big boss, and now she has a SEXUAL HARRASSMENT lawsuit she can file?????

 

What is WRONG with you people???

 

She's an ADULT - responsible for her OWN actions and the choices SHE made. Gotta love this blameless society - nobody's responsible for their OWN stuff, right? Everyone ELSE is responsible for her skuzzy behavior. Yeah, that's it. And gee, let's get rich off a Sexual Harrassment lawsuit by screwing the insurance company while we're at it.

 

Do you people hear yourselves?

 

BurningMan - here's a newsflash for ya. Your wife acted irresponsibly and is choosing to BLAME it on booze (here we go with the BLAMELESS bullsh*t again). Truth is, she PUT herself into a position like that by opening her mouth and DRINKING like a fish. No one poured it down her throat. And quite honestly, anyone whose ignorant enough to ALLOW herself to get drunk when she's in the company of MANAGEMENT who could make or break her is a complete FOOL. That's professional suicide.

 

Just for starters, have her own her sh*t, ok? Just for starters. Stop blaming it on the booze, stop blaming it on her boss and stop thinking you're going to get rich off of a frivolous lawsuit you have NO RIGHT to file.

 

SHE CHOSE TO DO IT.

 

LOL, A MEN!

So how come this guy won't have anything to do with your wife now? She must not have been that good in bed.

[burningman]

Uh..how bout no drinking period? Whether boss man is in the room or not...cuz if she is drinking...other men she can do could be around.

 

 

 

Is there a reason she needs a hotel room for a company party? And why aren't you with her? I say when the party is over she gets her asss home.

 

 

 

Now I like this one.

 

 

 

Uh if she is out w/females...you can still better bet men will be around.

Now it depends on how she is out with them...if she is out shopping or going to a movie...ok...going to a bar or club...out of the question.

 

 

 

??? You don't think she could spread 'em for a subordinate?

 

 

 

Not sure what you mean here.

 

 

 

This is a given...no married person needs to stay out all night partying....or partying period for that matter.

 

 

 

.quote]

 

Bish, she has to go out of town on business. It's not that often, but she can't come home usually as she's too far away. (at least 2 hrs commute.) I can't go there with her. I have a job too, and I'm not her parole officer.

She never said anything wasn't fair. I let her tell me what she think was right boundaries. This was a negotiation. Why not just drop the hammer and say "no drinking... period?" I was trying to be reasonable. A couple of social beers with dinner? Sure. She violates that and we're done. I realize that's taking a chance. She's can have a couple of social beers with dinner or she can get divorced. But I u/s where you are coming from.

[burningman]

Racquel, I'm thinking you are probably right, considering how drunk she claims to have been. But I would also add that your comment suggets you didn't read the thred, and that might be the most useless comment I've read on this website. There's probably a performance forum, so take it over there.

[Tomcat33]

Uh..how bout no drinking period? Whether boss man is in the room or not...cuz if she is drinking...other men she can do could be around.

 

 

 

Is there a reason she needs a hotel room for a company party? And why aren't you with her? I say when the party is over she gets her asss home.

 

 

 

Now I like this one.

 

 

 

Uh if she is out w/females...you can still better bet men will be around.

Now it depends on how she is out with them...if she is out shopping or going to a movie...ok...going to a bar or club...out of the question.

 

 

 

??? You don't think she could spread 'em for a subordinate?

 

 

 

Not sure what you mean here.

 

 

 

This is a given...no married person needs to stay out all night partying....or partying period for that matter.

 

 

 

What on the list did she say was NOT fair? Anything?

 

 

 

Well if you suspect she might...whats the point in staying with her? She obviously is not trustworthy...so why bother?

 

 

 

 

Oh of course you are. its not easy to deal with. I can tell you that I feel much better after dumping my cheating XW. She can be someone elses problem.

 

 

 

 

good for you ...don't take any shiit off her.

 

If she gives you shiit, you just need to remind her that she is in no position to complain.

 

 

WOW if anyone is looking for the 12 steps to becomin a parole officer there you have it. Gees!

 

It's one thing to set ground rules and a complete other to make this into a concetration camp of abuse. That's not love or recovery that's REVENGE!

[Tomcat33]

 

Bish, she has to go out of town on business. It's not that often, but she can't come home usually as she's too far away. (at least 2 hrs commute.) I can't go there with her. I have a job too, and I'm not her parole officer.

She never said anything wasn't fair. I let her tell me what she think was right boundaries. This was a negotiation. Why not just drop the hammer and say "no drinking... period?" I was trying to be reasonable. A couple of social beers with dinner? Sure. She violates that and we're done. I realize that's taking a chance. She's can have a couple of social beers with dinner or she can get divorced. But I u/s where you are coming from.

 

 

It's one thing to negotiate it's another to become her father. C'mon you don't want to kill any chance at attraction to redevelop and nothing kills attraction faster than unreasonable DEMANS. I think you are doing fine for starters the rest really is entirely up to her, and you want her to prove to you she is worthy of your trust again but you want to do it in such a way which gives her a choice to ACTUALY make the right choice.

[burningman]

Tomcat, in your post to bish you are either picking another fight with bish or you are contradicting yourself in the next post? Or I might be confused? I didn't demand anything from her. I asked her to sit down and help come up with a plan to re-build trust and she provided the answers. I didn't demand anything. In terms of the big picture, I don't care what she does. She's a grown woman, and I can make it on my own just fine. If she doesn't think she needs to do anything, then fine. no need for me to stick around. But she wants to set boundaries, so we're off to a good start. It shows me that she wants this to work. Additionally, she doesn't have any biz trips or outings planned for the rest of the year anyway. Cheap basta*d$ aren't even throwing a christmas party. This gives us plenty of time to change the boundaries if one or both of us is uncomfortable with them.

******************

more positives: she also sat down and asked me to help her come up with all of the possible reasons she let this happen. She wrote it all down and took it into IC today. I did nothing but listen and only interjected when she wanted me to. But that's all I did. Very eye opening for me and her, and she's letting me inside a place she was always been scared to let me in.

[burningman]

quick question for you all: would it be a conflict of interest to use her IC as our MC? She's been seeing him on and off for over a year. He knows her pretty well. She wanted me to meet him last summer, so I've met him and I like the guy.

[burningman]

tomcat, never mind. I know exactly what you are saying. You're right on the money. Sorry, it took me a couple of reads.

[Tomcat33]

Tomcat, in your post to bish you are either picking another fight with bish or you are contradicting yourself in the next post? Or I might be confused? I didn't demand anything from her. I asked her to sit down and help come up with a plan to re-build trust and she provided the answers. I didn't demand anything. In terms of the big picture, I don't care what she does. She's a grown woman, and I can make it on my own just fine. If she doesn't think she needs to do anything, then fine. no need for me to stick around. But she wants to set boundaries, so we're off to a good start. It shows me that she wants this to work. Additionally, she doesn't have any biz trips or outings planned for the rest of the year anyway. Cheap basta*d$ aren't even throwing a christmas party. This gives us plenty of time to change the boundaries if one or both of us is uncomfortable with them.

 

 

Burning I am not picking a fight with anyone I am stating my views on certain tactics people post about that's all. Secondly I should have been clearer in my response, that was not in response to anything you are doing I find that everything you are drafting out for yourself and your W is fine, seen from the outside it looks like a healthy and postive way to approach an otherwise very difficult situation. The demands comments was in no way in any response to what you are doing, since you have every right to set guidelines for what you want out of your relationship EVERYONE has that right to ask for what they deem is correct and beneficial to both parts in a relationship, the basis to a successful relationship is communication and the meeting of our needs, and they only way we can achieve that is by being vocal about our needs the rest is up to our partners.

 

My comment about demans was to those that feel that a demand is a right and it should be imposed like a parole office or a judge, I just don't adhere to that thinking in form of practice simply because both parties lose in the end, it does the demander no good to know they are getting their way through force. I just don't see how that can be a positive thing IMO.

[reboot]

My comment about demans was to those that feel that a demand is a right and it should be imposed like a parole office or a judge, I just don't adhere to that thinking in form of practice simply because both parties lose in the end, it does the demander no good to know they are getting their way through force. I just don't see how that can be a positive thing IMO.

It shouldn't be a DEMAND. It should be, you hurt me, this is part of what I need to heal. No one wants to be a parole officer, but trust has to be regained somehow. And they can always just leave if it's unacceptable.

[burningman]

I mispoke earlier when I wrote "Heftysmurf, if you are reading this I have felt your pain more than most." That was totally insensitive and incorrect, and a terrible thing to say. What I meant was that we're both in the trenches and having these emotions at the same time.

[bish]

Bish, she has to go out of town on business. It's not that often, but she can't come home usually as she's too far away. (at least 2 hrs commute.) I can't go there with her. I have a job too, and I'm not her parole officer.

She never said anything wasn't fair. I let her tell me what she think was right boundaries. This was a negotiation. Why not just drop the hammer and say "no drinking... period?" I was trying to be reasonable. A couple of social beers with dinner? Sure. She violates that and we're done. I realize that's taking a chance. She's can have a couple of social beers with dinner or she can get divorced. But I u/s where you are coming from.

 

I hear ya...but you said you were trying to be reasonable. She doesn't deserve reasonable after what she did to you. but I understand your thinking. If after being reasonable in the aftermath of the worst kind of betrayal if she breaks any of these ground rules...I hope you make good on your promise to ditch her.

[bish]

WOW if anyone is looking for the 12 steps to becomin a parole officer there you have it. Gees!

 

It's one thing to set ground rules and a complete other to make this into a concetration camp of abuse. That's not love or recovery that's REVENGE!

 

No, its expecting her to act like a wife and not a college floosy.