on ulitmatums

[Cobra_X30]

Make her quit her job or give her and ultimatum re her job and you are on a rapid downward spirall into destruction. You will never EVER overcome the betrayal she did to you and your marriage, and she will NEVER overcome the fact that you made her quit her job after how hard you both worked to have either.

If you ask her for that kind of ultimatum you are on a path of massive destruction and you don't even see it.

She may agree to quit to do what she needs to get past the infidelity but in time she will resent you, add to that the resenment on your part for being cheated on and I really don't see any hope at all for the two of you to work things out. NONE whatsoever.

 

If she takes it upon herself to quit that's a different story, then you are not giving her a reason to resent you and it might work because you can work towards a common goal and the power is still yours.

 

TC,

 

Snap.... back to reality. Fairy time is over. Poeple respond to consequences! If she really cared she would have offered her resignation already, and have talked about what happened immediately with her H.

 

Poeple dont always just do the right thing, she is obviously one of them. These people will only do the right thing when faced with consequences! If he lets her keep the job then he is literally telling her that what she did was Ok. That wont work!

[burningman]

I've got a feeling that the company realizes exactly where Desparate is coming from. Obviously this is why nothing is documented. This is a ticking time bomb and the letter confirming her conversation with HR guy may just be the spark. Also, big guy told HR guy he didn't remeber anything either and his two kids were sleeping in his bedroom? I've found his ex-wife's email and I will go there if I need to.

[Trialbyfire]

Women and men use sex to climb the corporate ladder. It happens all the time.

 

I agree that management must act responsibly and are held to a higher standard than line staff. I would hold them accountable in some manner, whether it be fiscal or otherwise.

 

Having said that, your wife should also be held accountable for her responsiblity to your marriage. As a committed woman, she should be held to a higher standard than someone who's single and free to indulge.

[Cobra_X30]

Cobra, your insight has been very helpful over the last few days. If I am still here tomorrow and not gone, I think my wife needs to read all of this too. I'm not totally ruling out sexual harrassment suit, I just don't think it's the thing to do right now. I recognize where desparate is coming from.

 

Burning,

 

I have hope for your Marriage! The reason I am hard on your wife is that, from everything you describe it sounds like she wants to shrug it off and move on. You have no chance if that happens! It will slowly eat your soul, and you will spend 5 years doing CPR on a dead marriage. She needs to understand you, feel for you, and begin coming from a place of honest remorse. I'm sorry that she doesnt do this naturally, just know that most don't.

 

I think your really starting to hit the anger stage. It comes and goes. I watched my dad go through this.

 

Be brave! Your not too old to find love again if need be!

[Tomcat33]

TC,

 

Snap.... back to reality. Fairy time is over. Poeple respond to consequences! If she really cared she would have offered her resignation already, and have talked about what happened immediately with her H.

 

Poeple dont always just do the right thing, she is obviously one of them. These people will only do the right thing when faced with consequences! If he lets her keep the job then he is literally telling her that what she did was Ok. That wont work!

 

 

Excuse me but perhaps we live in different realities. My reality does not include babying someone to do what is right, or holding another grown human being's hand into making them do the right thing. If you are going to accept what another human being does to you as the worst form of betrayal then you need to let them make it up to you with every ounce of their being, not by YOU imposing an ultimatum or becoming a parole officer if the goal is to become a parole officer of the cheater then why would you want to be with someone you had to FORCE to be with you.

 

Call me crazy, but my reality includes being with someone who has enough humanity in them to make a mistake, but who also has enough personal strength to rectify said mistake if they truly feel regret and remorse for what they did.

 

 

This man deserves respect, by imposing ultimatums on his w he loses. It does nothing for the recovery and it proves what to him? That he had to force her to act? how is that in ANY shape way or form beneficial to him?

It's one thing to express his desires and needs of what would be expected of her, it is another to force her to do something via an ultimatum.

 

No matter what the scenario a person ALWAYS loses when they impose utlimatums, you may get your way but would you want to know a person is on board with you 100% because they want to or 60% because you scared them into it?

[Trialbyfire]

TC,

 

Snap.... back to reality. Fairy time is over. Poeple respond to consequences! If she really cared she would have offered her resignation already, and have talked about what happened immediately with her H.

 

Poeple dont always just do the right thing, she is obviously one of them. These people will only do the right thing when faced with consequences! If he lets her keep the job then he is literally telling her that what she did was Ok. That wont work!

I so agree with this. Consequences to actions and holding people accountable for them.

[burningman]

Tomcat, while I do agree with you. Cobra makes a good point too. For the sake of argument, is it fair for me to tell the W "The lies stop now or I leave." It's sounds fair to me. It's not imposing will, it's me requiring a set of standards and demanding respect. She either gets on board because she has (wants) the same standards or she doesn't. (Obviously different than the job issue, but not that much).

***********

I mean, really the question does come down to can I live with her working next to the guy every day? And I'm leaning towards probably not. I think most people here seem to think the no contact rule is fair.

[burningman]

Tomcat/cobra: this is actually why I started this thread. If I can't deal with it, and I leave, and never told her I would leave or couldn't deal with it... I am I being fair to her, assuming we're eventually trying to rebuild? I think just stay away from " you do this or else dam*it!"

[Tomcat33]

Tomcat/cobra: this is actually why I started this thread. If I can't deal with it, and I leave, and never told her I would leave or couldn't deal with it... I am I being fair to her, assuming we're eventually trying to rebuild? I think just stay away from " you do this or else dam*it!"

 

Absolutely that's what I'm saying! If you have expressed that it would make you very uncomfortable for her to be around him at work then she should quit on her own merit, though not to discourage you and speaking from experience if there is anything deeper than what happened between the two of them that was more than a one time fling, then where there is a will there is way. Work together or not they will seek each other out, or one side will at least.

 

"you do this or else" is selling yourself short of what you deserve, and that is her 100%. If she chooses to stay and you can't work with that then you can walk. People are so afraid of walking to prove a point, you see it is not an utlimatum it is giving yourself the value you have and taking the power away from another to creat your own destiny. I can promise you nothing makes a person react more than knowing the other person takes themselves seriously and will not allow an iota of disrespect more but not via an ultimatum rather an action of consecuence that must be faced due to the infraction.

 

I believe in order to be respected one must take action to put themselves in a place to be respected, not forcing respect out of another human being. Ultimatums force respect, which in turn get you exactly that: "forced respect".

[Trialbyfire]

I believe in order to be respected one must take action to put themselves in a place to be respected, not forcing respect out of another human being. Ultimatums force respect, which in turn get you exactly that: "forced respect".

It has nothing to do with respect. She failed to uphold her marital responsibilities. He's taking her to task for it. It's so basic.

[Tomcat33]

Tomcat, while I do agree with you. Cobra makes a good point too. For the sake of argument, is it fair for me to tell the W "The lies stop now or I leave." It's sounds fair to me. It's not imposing will, it's me requiring a set of standards and demanding respect. She either gets on board because she has (wants) the same standards or she doesn't. (Obviously different than the job issue, but not that much).

***********

I mean, really the question does come down to can I live with her working next to the guy every day? And I'm leaning towards probably not. I think most people here seem to think the no contact rule is fair.

 

 

Well I think from the moment that a person chooses to stay after EVERYTHING that was done to them, and if they still have to explain that all the things that lead to the A must stop in order for them to be give this other chance, I think there is something very wrong with that picture. If a person messes up and they are given another chance it is understood that there is 0 tolerance.

 

Or does the forgiver need to explain this because the sheer act of accepting a betrayal denotes that its ok to do what the WS did?

[Tomcat33]

It has nothing to do with respect. She failed to uphold her marital responsibilities. He's taking her to task for it. It's so basic.

 

What's "so basic" is that it has everything to do with respect, I'm surprised you fail to see that.

[Tomcat33]

the job issue, but not that much).

***********

I mean, really the question does come down to can I live with her working next to the guy every day? And I'm leaning towards probably not. I think most people here seem to think the no contact rule is fair.

 

 

The NC rule is more than fair and if it is something you need to move on then it is more than fair that you would want that. The question was I thought re. ultimatums. If you felt comfortable with giving and ultimatum or felt it was your "right' because of what happened or that it would even turn into something beneficial to you then I dont think you would be questioning it? would you?

[Trialbyfire]

What's "so basic" is that it has everything to do with respect, I'm surprised you fail to see that.

You and I will always see things differently. I will always see it from the perspective of someone who's been married and been cheated on and, until you've been married, you will always see it from the perspective of someone who's never been married and has been an OW.

[burningman]

Ok... got you going. Good stuff. What I couldn't see through my betrayed vision is that demanding respect is different from an ultimatum, even though they may have the same desired outcome. It's the intent, the delivery and the details that separate it. Ultimatum is percieved as punishment and force. Wheras in my case, a thorough discussion about rebuilding trust and how we're going to do it should lead to several agreements anyway, and the work issue is one of many that will have to be addressed.

*****

I surely don't want to take her career away from her, and I don't need to punish her because she's taking care of that. But I don't know how I can live with the fact that they are working in the same office. As someone above said, one will eventually be after the other. It's human nature and there are a lot of power issues in this situation.

*

(She hasn't even quit lying yet, but I know my w, and I'm hoping for the best here and thinking ahead)

[burningman]

Or does the forgiver need to explain this because the sheer act of accepting a betrayal denotes that its ok to do what the WS did?

 

...Good point too. Trialbyfire and Cobra see this clearly.

[Cobra_X30]

Or does the forgiver need to explain this because the sheer act of accepting a betrayal denotes that its ok to do what the WS did?

 

...Good point too. Trialbyfire and Cobra see this clearly.

 

 

Yes, I see what Tomcat is saying also! The difference is what is stated and what is implied!

 

I believe Tomcat is advocating an approach like this: You say, 'Honey, I dont really feel comfortable with you working in the same office as him'. Then allowing her a few days to see what she does.

 

If she chooses to ignore your feelings that is a grave disrespect, and shows that she is in a fog, where she cant really see or understand how you feel.

 

If it comes to that, I believe Tomcat would advocate you seperate.

 

I'm not sure I would do that. I tend to take the honest but forceful approach wherein you say: 'I am still not comfortable with you two working together, I thought you would understand that as I have told you before, and I see you have taken no action to resolve this. Therefore, I ask you to choose this day which you want in your life moving forward'.

 

I hope that provides clarity.

[Trialbyfire]

Here's where I stand on infidelity. It's one of the basic tenants of a marriage. Soft-selling your needs to a cheater will only provide them with loopholes to continue slipping through. Hardlining works. It worked for me, although I still kicked him to the curb and drove a bus over him. What started out as a million lies which I called him on and flattened him each time he lied, turned into true remorse after he realized what he had gambled away, for nothing.

 

Actions to consequences. I am a firm believer in this.

[Desperate HH]

I surely don't want to take her career away from her, and I don't need to punish her because she's taking care of that. But I don't know how I can live with the fact that they are working in the same office.

 

If there's a shred of truth in her story, and she proceeds with a complaint, they won't be working together anymore. He (and his buddy in HR) will be history.

[Cobra_X30]

If there's a shred of truth in her story, and she proceeds with a complaint, they won't be working together anymore. He (and his buddy in HR) will be history.

 

Desperate, You are a hero!

 

Please stick around this forum, as you have more to add than the average Joe!

[Desperate HH]

Please stick around this forum,

 

LOL - hanging around this forum is NOT my idea of a good time. I'd much rather be ANYWHERE else! (except maybe my new home over on the divorce/separation board )

[Tomcat33]

You and I will always see things differently. I will always see it from the perspective of someone who's been married and been cheated on and, until you've been married, you will always see it from the perspective of someone who's never been married and has been an OW.

 

I think you should stick to speaking for yourself and on how you see things and people will see what others say and what they see, and I will stick to speaking about me. I would highly appreciate it if you did not tell me what I do or do not not see given my life experiences due to the little that you may or may not know about me. I am not here to agree or disagree with you, I am here offering a side to the equation as I see it. It is a public forum and it is neither here nor there to me to match my answers to your points of view. I welcome you to skim past my posts.

 

Having said that, I don't see what the relevance is of stating what my marital staus is when before, as you so quickly need to point out to justify your cause, I was an OW I was also a betrayed partner. I was betrayed by my fiance of 6yrs and we had been living together for 4 of those years. For all intesive purposes I was in a fully committed relationship with the intent of singning the papers, which was just a technicality because there was absolutely NO difference between my relationship and that of a married person's.

 

My view is on what I have lived and how I perceive to see what works and what does not. The idea that one can forgive and move to work on making things better is a romantic ideal that most want to adhere to with dear life to avoid the financial strain and general upheaval of having to face something as traumatic as divorce but the reality is that married or not the betrayal is the same. The forgiveness process is exactly the same, and the choice to devote the rest of your life trying to understand the whys and the how comes someone that could so callously trade you in for their selfish desires for one night would do it (that was the case in my betrayal he had sex with a coworker one drunken night after a company party) is no differente for someone "such as myself" as it is for anyone else.

 

I have also been on the other side experiencing a long extended romance with someone that WAS SEPARATED and living on his own but was still married on paper. And so having lived both aspects of the coin I still think that respect boils down to what you allow of others.

 

I could have bit the bullet and stayed with a man that chose to cheat on me and proceeded with making it formal but why? Why do that to myself, why tie myself for the rest of my life to someone that created doubts in me? In our stability in what we had? I know what went wrong in our relationship I know why the betrayal happened I know exactly where we were as a couple in order for something like that to happpen and we BOTH handled our situation very poorly. But under no circumstance do I accept betrayal and NEVER will, all bets are off. SO in life sometimes you have to cut your loses but more importantly than that in life you cannot force people to feel or want to do what they don't want to feel or do.

 

I am a believer in what is MEANT to be should be, so if you would like to quote any sort of philosophy that I adhere to that which makes my stance different than others, feel free to quote THAT about me. Maybe that will help you understand my stance better. That's if you wish to understand me, if you don't then I guess I can expect much of the same old same old.

 

In the mean time you stick to speaking about your point of view and let me speak of my points of views and why I have them, thank you very much.

[Trialbyfire]

For all intesive purposes

As an FYI, even though it might be for intensive purposes, the saying is "For all intents and purposes". Just being helpful.

[Tomcat33]

Yes, I see what Tomcat is saying also! The difference is what is stated and what is implied!

 

I believe Tomcat is advocating an approach like this: You say, 'Honey, I dont really feel comfortable with you working in the same office as him'. Then allowing her a few days to see what she does.

 

If she chooses to ignore your feelings that is a grave disrespect, and shows that she is in a fog, where she cant really see or understand how you feel.

 

If it comes to that, I believe Tomcat would advocate you seperate.

 

I'm not sure I would do that. I tend to take the honest but forceful approach wherein you say: 'I am still not comfortable with you two working together, I thought you would understand that as I have told you before, and I see you have taken no action to resolve this. Therefore, I ask you to choose this day which you want in your life moving forward'.

 

I hope that provides clarity.

 

You were bang on until the advocating part, I don't advocate anything because I know that not everyone has the same approach to crisis moments. I am not an advocate for anything except for in my own life I advocate TO MYSELF what I believe are the truths are that I need to have a happy and fulfilling life. I can share what makes me happy and works for me but I do not expect it to be taken on by others.

 

So if she is still in the fog and refuses to hear what Burningman 's needs are then he always has options that denote maintaining his control of himself rather than trying to control HER actions.

 

The options are to keep waiting and expressing his discomfort about the situation and give it a little more time to see if she comes around or shake things ups by taking the situation into one's hands. He could then say "If we can't see eye to eye then maybe it is time to think about taking some time away from one another to see what it is that we really want" The idea that a person CAN actually lose another is a reality check that whips things into place faster than any sort of ultimatum.

 

Not to mention on the part for the betrayed it could offer them time to think with a calmer head and not from a place of sheer need. When a person is betrayed, there is a lot of anger and questions and at the same time there is a lot of fear that they could actually lose the person. So everything gets mixed in together and we tend to act more out of desperation and not out of true intent of what is best for us.

 

What the action of "this is not working for me I shared with you what I need and it is not happening, therefore I must take my own wellbeing into my own hands" denotes is an air of self confidence of lack of fear and most importantly utter respect for the self. THAT is what makes people react and see the value in another human being NOT an ultimatum.

[Tomcat33]

As an FYI, even though it might be for intensive purposes, the saying is "For all intents and purposes". Just being helpful.

 

 

well you obviously knew what I meant to type so as long as people are getting it that's all I care.