on ulitmatums

[bish]

It shouldn't be a DEMAND. It should be, you hurt me, this is part of what I need to heal. No one wants to be a parole officer, but trust has to be regained somehow. And they can always just leave if it's unacceptable.

 

Exactly, and if she doesn't want to adhere to ground rules to refrain from behavior unacceptable to engage in as a married woman, then she could give a crap about her husband's feelings.

 

If I was in a R and I cheated, which would never happen, and I wanted to work on the R, and my SO told me she doesn't want me going to clubs, bars...or any place where the affair was spawned...I'd respect her feelings and refrain from such activities. Afterall...whats more important to me...my SO? Or partying?

[Tomcat33]

It shouldn't be a DEMAND. It should be, you hurt me, this is part of what I need to heal. No one wants to be a parole officer, but trust has to be regained somehow. And they can always just leave if it's unacceptable.

 

 

we are both saying the exact same thing Reboot so step away from the computer and put the weapons down.

[reboot]

we are both saying the exact same thing Reboot so step away from the computer and put the weapons down.

Sorry, I'm just used to arguing with you I guess.

[Tomcat33]

quick question for you all: would it be a conflict of interest to use her IC as our MC? She's been seeing him on and off for over a year. He knows her pretty well. She wanted me to meet him last summer, so I've met him and I like the guy.

 

 

100% conflict of interest, in fact a true professional will not take up a partner to do CC. If you wish to go down that route you need someone neutral.

Re. meeting him it is fine because sometimes it is good to get a true sense of the other half that is often discussed in therapy but that's about it.

[Tomcat33]

Sorry, I'm just used to arguing with you I guess.

 

I think you feel it is safer to argue with me because if you didn't you'd actually be forced to like me

[Ladyjane14]

Ground rule are set, and she really did choose and help decided them:

1) no drinking period if boss man is in the room (or the next room or whatever)

2) if he's not there, w/ people who are and equal and above you, 4 beer max and call to from the hotel room when you get back

3) 11pm curfew whe out of town.. period!

4) If out w/ females only, then no rules. I'll give her that much rope...

5) If out w/ the people that work under her, I'll give her that rope too.

6) Every day between 4:00 and 4:30 she calls me to advise if she will work late or not and we will deal together with the circumstances

7) I call her 2 or 3 times (like I always have) and she calls back within the hour

8) rationalizing that "one other person who didn't fit the category" is an automatic failure and unacceptable

9) And finally, no staying out overnight unless it is directly related to a business trip (which are few and far between)

*******************

I did let her tell me what she thinks is fair. When she violates them... and I suspect she might. we'll cross that bridge.... And for all of you that have had your input on this, we did negotiate the rules. No ultimatums.

 

What you might want to do is to type into your browser, "The Policy of Joint Agreement", and read the article you find there.

 

Now there's a big difference between drawing up personal boundaries, and negotiating an agreement together. Your boundaries of course, would be deal-breakers. But an "agreement" would hopefully be something that you've hammered out together and are both fairly enthusiastic about. In that way, your "agreement" doesn't lead to future resentments.

[Tomcat33]

What you might want to do is to type into your browser, "The Policy of Joint Agreement", and read the article you find there.

 

Now there's a big difference between drawing up personal boundaries, and negotiating an agreement together. Your boundaries of course, would be deal-breakers. But an "agreement" would hopefully be something that you've hammered out together and are both fairly enthusiastic about. In that way, your "agreement" doesn't lead to future resentments.

 

 

That is very true. That to me seems like the correct recipe for a healthy relationship, it's a shame that it has to take something as traumatic as an A sometimes to get a couple negotiating openly.

 

I remember a good friend of mine when her H had an affair on her and left her for the OW I had asked her "so did the two of you ever discuss the boundaries for what is acceptable and what is not, including infidelity and what your stance is on that? and her response was "no, I thought that was a given" And of course it is, but to see things layed out and to know that if there are boundaries crossed actions will be taken and one must be prepared to take those actions on, then it leaves absolutely no room for misconceptions on what a person might get away with if the lines are crossed.

 

In my rel the one that cheated on me, I had always said to him if you ever cheat on me it means you want out of the relationship and we are through and so I will not accept an excuse it's final for me. And I did exactly that. I figure there is no way you can back peddal from that once you know what breaking that promise means to the other person.

[reboot]

I think you feel it is safer to argue with me because if you didn't you'd actually be forced to like me

Hmmmm.... let's take things slowly, ok? I'm really vulnerable right now.

 

[Tomcat33]

Hmmmm.... let's take things slowly, ok? I'm really vulnerable right now.

 

 

 

That makes two of us my friend.

You're right we mustn't rush things good things come to those who wait.:laugh:

[Cobra_X30]

She also recognizes the company's role in this and is composing a letter to make some demands of them. I'm now wrestling with the issue of trying to sort out what I need to demand from her and what to let her figure out on her own. For example, my packed bags ended her lies. Simple demand and a simple result. She is voluntarily telling me things about herself that I did not know in order to let me in. She also is now understanding OM leaves the office or she does, or I go. No ultimatum from me on this one, she figured it out on her own. What I am seeing now is that Tomcat was right when you stated that ultimaums are no where near as effective as mutual understanding, and Cobra was right too when you mentioned that consequences get results. The question is when to play the consequence card, and this one of the reasons for MC. First, mutual dicussion and reason, then if you realize WS isn't getting it, you think to yourself it's your life and you have standards, and you won't acccept less. What a freaking confusing rollercoaster of a mess.

 

Burning,

 

First, I want to say this is an excellent step on your wife part! If she continues in this direction your marriage will not only survive but thrive!

 

I know this thread is on ultimatums, however I agree with Tomcat at this point that a direct ultimatum is not needed. You two agreed on some boundaries, and understand that these boundaries are not to make sure she doesnt cheat again. If she wants to she will, regardless of whether she checks in or not! This is about her, expressing and showing to you her level of committment!

 

I'm not overly concerned at this point she will begin to resent doing these things. See if she follows through with them first!

 

To assist in keeping her from getting angry with your new boundaries... provide positive reinforcement when she satisfies your trust! I cant stress to you how important that will be!

 

I do not like the corporate culture your wife is currently immersed in! I've been there and done that. I'm going to be very honest with you in saying her job WILL continue to cause problems. It's the exact same thing as running with a bad crowd in High school! It's obvious that was something that made you want to jump ship! I question whether she puts up with the company culture, or likes it.

 

How well do you think she handles peer pressure?

[abeliever]

I am so glad to hear she is making attempts in the right direction! Keep up the good work, but keep alert also. I am rooting for the both of you.

 

abeliever

[Racquel Colette]

Uh, I read the thread. Why are you so offended that this bossman found your wife to be bad in bed and didn't want seconds? That's good for you, right?

It sounds like your WIFE is the one who needs to go to the performance forum.

[bish]

Uh, I read the thread. Why are you so offended that this bossman found your wife to be bad in bed and didn't want seconds? .

 

I don't remember reading that, but if its there, that would be odd of him to waste any time thinking about that.

 

I'm not saying it was said in this thread, but if a wife of mine complained that an OM thought she wasn't worth 2nds...I'd have to laugh and as, "are you expecting sympathy from me on this?"

[Racquel Colette]

No, I am saying this is a good thing because the OM won't be pursuing her anymore. He wants nothing to do with her, this is a good thing for this guy who wants to keep his wife on a tight leash. It's one less guy he has to worry about her sleeping with.

[burningman]

Racquel. you mis-read the thread. The performance issue was a question posted by another poster. I can assure you that her performance, in my opinion is not an overall issue. However, knowing my wife and what it took me to get her to relax a bit, I'm quite sure that whatever happened that night will not sell a video in a hotel room, internet or anywhere else considering the lack of love and amt of alcohol involved. Additionally, why is this even relevant to you? I'm familiar with the liberator, the pool bubblers, the shower heads, and all of the goodies that help women get along. Quite comfortable w/ my own skills too, and familiarity with female anatomy, so my wife's performance and her boss's performance are the least of my concerns. I suspect whatever happenned that hight would make for a sad laugh from all of us.

****************

I have much more to share with you all. Good news is avail, I just don't know where to post it or how to post it. It will come. Major progress today.

[Racquel Colette]

If you were that satisfying in bed and attentive to all her needs, why did she cheat with the bossman? It's just like the poster I quoted stated, you can't really blame it all on the alcohol. The truth about a person really comes out when they're drunk, meaning that she really isn't into the marriage and that came out when she was drunk and screwing the bossman.

[bish]

No, I am saying this is a good thing because the OM won't be pursuing her anymore. He wants nothing to do with her, this is a good thing for this guy who wants to keep his wife on a tight leash. It's one less guy he has to worry about her sleeping with.

 

Or it could be a bad thing...if this man thinks she isn't very good...she just might have to go out and have another affair to "reassure" herself as so many cheaters do.

[bish]

If you were that satisfying in bed and attentive to all her needs, why did she cheat with the bossman?.

 

Now RC...don't be rubbing anything like that in this man's face. He has been hurt enough by her to have to add anything on.

 

and in alot of cases, I believe, it wouldn't matter how good or lousy a spouse is, or how good or bad the sex life is...some people just like the thrill of having sex with different people.

[Racquel Colette]

Good point. If I was cheated on, though, alcohol or not, the man would be gone, husband or not. I'd be to the lawyer the next day (as long as it was a weekday.)

[burningman]

Ok, I wasnt go to just throw this up here, but she suggested it. W has been reading all of this too. It's helping her, and we both think racquel is way off base. W says she has always thought I was too good for her and would probably leave her one day anyway. Apparently, she's also been having some symptoms of MS since July and was convinced I would leave her if I found out. She also liked the attention she was getting from the guy but didn't think he had the cahunas to put his job in a bind by making a move, and up until the night of the barbque, she really never recognized his "friendliness" was more than just friendliness, and I didn't either, and we both should have. He sold her the "your are best employee" line, and he was "such a lonely pitiful single dad who just needed a friend," and then she got a crush on him. It became clear the night she went over there that he had it for her, and she knew was playing w/ fire and trusted that him and the fact that HR guy were there, she could get out of there w/ no problem. Additionally, she was in a very similar situation when she was 14, she did say "no" and that guy is now in jail for rape. Isn't there a theory that people have tendencies to recreate their traumatic experiences in an effort to control them? She's now having nightmares about the old incident and the jailbird and bossman are interchanging in the dream. She chose not tell me that her and IC have been working on the old event for the last year. The reason she went back to IC a year ago is because we had a 17 year old girl come into our life who had been molested by her stepfather since she was 4. I mean some nasty sh*t too. I mentor a neighborhood kid. He brought her to me and asked for help. Wife went into IC asap as a precautionary measure, and I took the lead with the girl, DSS, DA, police etc and became her guardian ad-litem, and the stepfather plea-bargained himself to 28yrs w/out parole (in general population, I might add!) That course of events lasted 6 months, and just finally resolved in march.

**************************************

She's also had her blinders on since she got into corporate america chosing not to recognize if anyone had interest in her. It was easier to ignore it, because up until 6 months ago, her and I worked for the same company for 5 years, so in her mind she was safe.

***************************************

So I am pretty sure that the reasons the ONS happened are somewhere in all of the info above. She's totally insecure. It's like a perfect storm really, just add alcohol. And for his part, looking back at the last few months, his actions were bordering on predatory. Very manipulative. She's seriously the sweet, nice, trust everyone, see the good in everybody type of girl, and he knows that. I actually don't think he's done w/ her yet. He just hasn't found a way to continue the chase and save his job. If he got to her before she came to me there was definitely potential for an affair here. Good news is she back in IC and she's really opening up too me.

[burningman]

Ok, I wasnt go to just throw this up here, but she suggested it. W has been reading all of this too. It's helping her, and we both think racquel is way off base. W says she has always thought I was too good for her and would probably leave her one day anyway. Apparently, she's also been having some symptoms of MS since July and was convinced I would leave her if I found out. She also liked the attention she was getting from the guy but didn't think he had the cahunas to put his job in a bind by making a move, and up until the night of the barbque, she really never recognized his "friendliness" was more than just friendliness, and I didn't either, and we both should have. He sold her the "your are best employee" line, and he was "such a lonely pitiful single dad who just needed a friend," and then she got a crush on him. It became clear the night she went over there that he had it for her, and she knew was playing w/ fire and trusted that him and the fact that HR guy were there, she could get out of there w/ no problem. Additionally, she was in a very similar situation when she was 14, she did say "no" and that guy is now in jail for rape. Isn't there a theory that people have tendencies to recreate their traumatic experiences in an effort to control them? She's now having nightmares about the old incident and the jailbird and bossman are interchanging in the dream. She chose not tell me that her and IC have been working on the old event for the last year. The reason she went back to IC a year ago is because we had a 17 year old girl come into our life who had been molested by her stepfather since she was 4. I mean some nasty sh*t too. I mentor a neighborhood kid. He brought her to me and asked for help. Wife went into IC asap as a precautionary measure, and I took the lead with the girl, DSS, DA, police etc and became her guardian ad-litem, and the stepfather plea-bargained himself to 28yrs w/out parole (in general population, I might add!) That course of events lasted 6 months, and just finally resolved in march.

**************************************

She's also had her blinders on since she got into corporate america chosing not to recognize if anyone had interest in her. It was easier to ignore it, because up until 6 months ago, her and I worked for the same company for 5 years, so in her mind she was safe.

***************************************

So I am pretty sure that the reasons the ONS happened are somewhere in all of the info above. She's totally insecure. It's like a perfect storm really, just add alcohol. And for his part, looking back at the last few months, his actions were bordering on predatory. Very manipulative. She's seriously the sweet, nice, trust everyone, see the good in everybody type of girl, and he knows that. I actually don't think he's done w/ her yet. He just hasn't found a way to continue the chase and save his job. If he got to her before she came to me there was definitely potential for an affair here. Good news is she back in IC and she's really opening up too me.

[Racquel Colette]

Of course your wife is not going to accept that she was bad in bed. No one wants to believe that about themselves.

[bish]

Ok, I wasnt go to just throw this up here, but she suggested it. W has been reading all of this too. It's helping her, and we both think racquel is way off base. W says she has always thought I was too good for her and would probably leave her one day anyway. Apparently, she's also been having some symptoms of MS since July and was convinced I would leave her if I found out. She also liked the attention she was getting from the guy but didn't think he had the cahunas to put his job in a bind by making a move, and up until the night of the barbque, she really never recognized his "friendliness" was more than just friendliness, and I didn't either, and we both should have. He sold her the "your are best employee" line, and he was "such a lonely pitiful single dad who just needed a friend," and then she got a crush on him.

 

So it was more than her being drunk like she originally said. See..I knew the drunk excuse was a line of bull.

 

 

It became clear the night she went over there that he had it for her, and she knew was playing w/ fire and trusted that him and the fact that HR guy were there, she could get out of there w/ no problem.

 

???? She has no mind and will of her own? Only reason she didn't get out of there with any problems is because she wanted what happened.

 

Not saying that to make you feel bad...just trying to make you realize you shouldn't be accepting her excuses of bulls##t.

 

She's also had her blinders on since she got into corporate america chosing not to recognize if anyone had interest in her. It was easier to ignore it, because up until 6 months ago, her and I worked for the same company for 5 years, so in her mind she was safe.

 

And in all this ignoring of anyone having any intersest in her, this is when she developed a "crush" on another guy there?....

 

 

So I am pretty sure that the reasons the ONS happened are somewhere in all of the info above. She's totally insecure. It's like a perfect storm really, just add alcohol. And for his part, looking back at the last few months, his actions were bordering on predatory.

 

Bah...thats no excuse. She was in complete control of HER actions...alcohol or not.

 

Very manipulative. She's seriously the sweet, nice, trust everyone, see the good in everybody type of girl, and he knows that. I actually don't think he's done w/ her yet. He just hasn't found a way to continue the chase and save his job. If he got to her before she came to me there was definitely potential for an affair here. Good news is she back in IC and she's really opening up too me.

 

hmmm....i'm sorry...you are happy with staying with someone who you admit had a potential to be in an affair with another man?

 

Well...good luck with that....I feel for your situation...I wouldn't be able to stay with that "woman".

[LifesontheUp]

W says she has always thought I was too good for her and would probably leave her one day anyway. Apparently, she's also been having some symptoms of MS since July and was convinced I would leave her if I found out.

 

So has she seen a doctor about the MS symptoms? I assume that someone has it in her family that shes worried about it.

 

I had a similar thing said to me when my xH had an affair. He said that he was depressed and had chronic fatigue syndrome and in his mind he was convinced I was going to leave if I found out.

 

It was just him trying to get me to pity him at a time he knew he was backed into a corner.......he admitted to it later on.

 

She also liked the attention she was getting from the guy but didn't think he had the cahunas to put his job in a bind by making a move, and up until the night of the barbque, she really never recognized his "friendliness" was more than just friendliness, and I didn't either, and we both should have. He sold her the "your are best employee" line, and he was "such a lonely pitiful single dad who just needed a friend," and then she got a crush on him.

 

Sorry Burningman but you are falling for her lines here still. She liked the attention she was getting but she never really recognized his friendliness was more than just friendliness. That is a load of bs, she knew exactly what was going on. SHE HAD A CRUSH ON ANOTHER MAN! Shame she can't just be honest and own up and tell you that she enjoyed the flirtiness. I think she fears you will leave if she tells you the whole truth about her part in this. Its a shame because in my honest opinion she is still gas lighting you. Shes still trying to play down her part in all this. I wonder what the OM would say about how they've been?

 

She's also had her blinders on since she got into corporate america chosing not to recognize if anyone had interest in her. It was easier to ignore it, because up until 6 months ago, her and I worked for the same company for 5 years, so in her mind she was safe.

 

You know what......when you part lie to hide the WHOLE truth things just don't sit right and lead to contradictions. So if she had blinders on and in her mind she was safe..........how the hell did she crush on this guy. She's been flirting back, I'd bet on it and she enjoyed all the attention. In my honest opinion she stayed at the party because she wanted too (she could have got out of there by catching a taxi) but chose to stay.

 

Sorry but your wife has a long way to go and needs to be honest about her part in this COMPLETELY.

 

It never made sense from the beginning and its just getting more and more muddled.

 

Mrs Burningman......if you are reading this. Do your husband a favour and be honest about your part in this. You knew full well the guy had the hots for you and you reciprocated. You enjoyed the flirting, the attention of some other guy, it made you feel good. You have a good husband, be completely open and honest and tell him your part before the OM does.

[Tomcat33]

Of course your wife is not going to accept that she was bad in bed. No one wants to believe that about themselves.

 

First of all why are you so fixated on trying to prove she was terrible in bed? Mind blowing sex happens in one night stands all the time and there is still no need to go any further because as the stament clearly denotes, it is a "one night stand" or a fling.

 

Ever occur to you that it may be less about how good she is in bed, she could have been spectacular for all we know, and more about the fact that she is married and the man did not want any sort of complications? Yes he wanted a one time thing but maybe that was it , regardless of how good it was.

 

I find this statement highly offensive in particualr to Burningman who wants to make a go at it, as I am sure as long as she is great in his bed that is all that matters. No point in trying to dilude what really happened with unfounded speculation, while the reasoning "she was horrible in the sack" may be great at justifying why it never went further may be great as a coping mechanism, it hardly makes it the truth. The truth lies in what happens between the two people trying to save a relationship that means something, not in "what could have been" in the scenario of the extramarital affair.

 

I don't see the point in offending both parties, the betrayed and the cheater, for the purpose of moving on. But that's just me..I would have an easier time reading that line from the betrayed who out of his own personal anger and pain may be inclined to make such statement anyone else making that statment just looks...like they have unfounded personal issues.