Question about "attacks" on Christians

[JamesM]

 

As a Christian I really don't understand the push to have prayer lead over the intercom. No one can stop me from praying when and where I chose. I pray everyday in the cafeteria before my lunch and no one runs up to me and says stop that I am offended. Before we go on field trips I pray, I have yet to have anyone say look at MRS. BNB, she is praying.

 

I must say that I would be just as offended by someone who is a Christian, but doesn't have the same belief system as I do(say the denominations that say women weren't called by God to spread the word)leading a public prayer as someone who isn't a Christian.

 

I agree with this statement. Having a prayer read in a public school not only does not mean that someone is praying, I am guessing that it can be looked at a mockery in God's eyes. Personally, people praying and meaning it is good. But people reading a prayer simply because it makes those who believe in a particular religion feel good is not what we need in America. And as has been said, today it is a Christian prayer, tomorrow it is a Muslim prayer.

[sb129]

Not true. Islam is by far the bloodiest religion going today, Hindus beat up and kill Sikhs all the time (and vice versa), and Buddhists attack both Christians AND Muslims.

 

While no religion has a corner on peace, none have a corner on violence, either. In point of fact, Western Christians are by far the most peaceful religious people on Earth.

 

Well that just shows you how little I know about worldwide religion, and thank you for the informative post Moai.

I think I was thinking about the different Sikhs/ Buddhists/ Hindus and Muslims that I know personally, who have all described their religions to me as being fundamentally peaceful, and they lay the blame on others for giving their religion a bad name.

They clearly omitted to tell me several key facts, and I am embarrassed to say I took them at their word without challenging or investigating further.

 

Nope. Islam is very specific about violence, and the need to use it against unbelievers. Those who argue the Islam is the religion of peace are either lying, or are moderates who twist the Koran to say what it doesn't.

 

I didn't know that. Again, I thought it was the fundamentalists twisting the Koran around to suit their idea of violence, not the other way round.

I think you are right- I come into contact with moderates all the time, and it would appear they have done just what you say- twist the Koran around, and blame others for the bad reputation.

 

I think I had better learn a bit more on this topic before I post again.

 

Thanks Moai!

[taiko]

Well that just shows you how little I know about worldwide religion, and thank you for the informative post Moai.

I think I was thinking about the different Sikhs/ Buddhists/ Hindus and Muslims that I know personally, who have all described their religions to me as being fundamentally peaceful, and they lay the blame on others for giving their religion a bad name.

They clearly omitted to tell me several key facts, and I am embarrassed to say I took them at their word without challenging or investigating further.

They are "fundamentally" peaceful however you can't fight off most enemies by setting yourself on fire and depending upon world opinion to get them to back off. I heard once first mention of Nazis lose the debate that being said. Gandi could fight the British and Martin Luther King the Americans using peaceful means but that would not have worked against Stalin or dare I say it Hitler

 

Have you ever seen Muy Thai, Thai kick boxing and the Buddist rituals they undertake before a fight. The Brutality of the sport is considered so extreme that most of their signiture moves, elbow stikes to the head, knee strike to the groin etc, were banned in western combat sports until ultimate mixed martial arts cage fighting started.

 

Right now there is a dirty war in Thailand with Islamic insurgeants playing the Viet Cong role killing teachers and other representatives of the state and thus Buddism. As Buddist the Thais must fight their Muslim brothers, or submit.

 

In shear number of terrorist attacks between Hindus, Sikh, and Muslims as alliances shift India is near the top of the list

 

I didn't know that. Again, I thought it was the fundamentalists twisting the Koran around to suit their idea of violence, not the other way round.

I think you are right- I come into contact with moderates all the time, and it would appear they have done just what you say- twist the Koran around, and blame others for the bad reputation.

 

I think I had better learn a bit more on this topic before I post again.

 

Thanks Moai!

 

Normally when religions are attacked it is the fundamentalist positions which are attacked. Also the fundamentalist Christian who looks at Islam looks at the fundamental postion and not in what he would consider the Muslims in name only.

[DutchGuy]

The discussion on this board on religion focusses on christianity because:

-That's what most people on here have a background in.

-Christians can take a little heat, not like jews or muslims.

-It's impossible to mention all religions in each case.

 

As for the islam being a religion of love and peace:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_van_Gogh_%28film_director%29

Dutch Atheist murdered by muslim.

 

Also a good example that it's not easy being an atheist either.

[lonelybird]

I am not intelligent, yet God gave me precious things that human cannot achieve by themselves, I know where I came from, God did many wonderful things in my life, God's wisdom is true wisdom

[Moai]

Well that just shows you how little I know about worldwide religion, and thank you for the informative post Moai.

I think I was thinking about the different Sikhs/ Buddhists/ Hindus and Muslims that I know personally, who have all described their religions to me as being fundamentally peaceful, and they lay the blame on others for giving their religion a bad name.

They clearly omitted to tell me several key facts, and I am embarrassed to say I took them at their word without challenging or investigating further.

 

 

 

I didn't know that. Again, I thought it was the fundamentalists twisting the Koran around to suit their idea of violence, not the other way round.

I think you are right- I come into contact with moderates all the time, and it would appear they have done just what you say- twist the Koran around, and blame others for the bad reputation.

 

I think I had better learn a bit more on this topic before I post again.

 

Thanks Moai!

 

You are most welcome.

 

I think a telling thing is that every believer who professes that their religion is all about "peace" does not come out and condemn others of their faith when they are violent. For example, I am not aware of one American Muslim who condemned the murder of the newspaper editor in Denmark (the one who published the cartoons--I think the cartoonist himself was also murdered). There are certainly other examples, but the silence speaks volumes.

[taiko]

You are most welcome.

 

I think a telling thing is that every believer who professes that their religion is all about "peace" does not come out and condemn others of their faith when they are violent. For example, I am not aware of one American Muslim who condemned the murder of the newspaper editor in Denmark (the one who published the cartoons--I think the cartoonist himself was also murdered). There are certainly other examples, but the silence speaks volumes.

 

With Islam you really can't, or are not suppose to be able to point to a religious leader to speak for them. I am sure CAIR or others would have said something against the murders if we were to search for the quote and without the double talk used when discussing Palistinian/Israeli relations.

 

The actual numbers seem to be in conflict but Muslims make up a micro minority of Americans. Also something like 40% of American Muslims are Nation of Islam I guess more of an Islamic cult in my opinion. There just is not much of an oppurtunity to hear their voice to actually debate or "attack" their faith.

[Moai]

They are "fundamentally" peaceful however you can't fight off most enemies by setting yourself on fire and depending upon world opinion to get them to back off.

 

No, they "fundamentally" aren't. If you look at the history of every major religion, each and every one started as violent and oppressive. Christianity has only become "peaceful" because it has had a reformation, doctrinal splits, and secular pressure. Islam is violent now because it has not had such events in its past.

 

Claiming something and having that claim be true are two different things.

 

I heard once first mention of Nazis lose the debate that being said. Gandi could fight the British and Martin Luther King the Americans using peaceful means but that would not have worked against Stalin or dare I say it Hitler

 

You refer to "Godwin's Law". But the way you use it here doesn't apply.

 

Your Ghandi reference is telling, as while he was peaceful, the Tamil Tigers (who still exist and are still killing) weren't. He had no trouble with other groups doing his fighting for him.

 

You are 100% correct that Hitler and Stalin would not have cared at all for peaceful resistance. Such shows pacifism to be a bankrupt philosophy.

 

Have you ever seen Muy Thai, Thai kick boxing and the Buddist rituals they undertake before a fight. The Brutality of the sport is considered so extreme that most of their signiture moves, elbow stikes to the head, knee strike to the groin etc, were banned in western combat sports until ultimate mixed martial arts cage fighting started.

 

There is a difference between violence for sport and violence for acheiving oppression or conquest--or defense. The rules of bosing (The Queensbury Rules) were a codfied list of what constitutes a "fair" fight. Even in Muy Thai groin shots are illegal.

 

Look how many boxers have been Christians, or Muslims.

 

Right now there is a dirty war in Thailand with Islamic insurgeants playing the Viet Cong role killing teachers and other representatives of the state and thus Buddism. As Buddist the Thais must fight their Muslim brothers, or submit.

 

The Buddhists in Sri Lanka are the instigators of violence.

 

In shear number of terrorist attacks between Hindus, Sikh, and Muslims as alliances shift India is near the top of the list

 

Sikhs must carry a sharp knife on them all the time. Recently, an editorial appeared in an Indian newspaper that was critical of Sikhs and their behavior, and they rioted and demanded the author's head. There was a riot, resulting in death. They also fight amongst themselves over how their holy texts are to be translated. Sound familiar?

 

Some Sikhs have even killed other Sikhs over the use of chairs. This rift is quite prevalent in Canada.

 

Normally when religions are attacked it is the fundamentalist positions which are attacked. Also the fundamentalist Christian who looks at Islam looks at the fundamental postion and not in what he would consider the Muslims in name only.

 

Fundamentalist positions are easily shown to be erroneous, it is true. However, even moderate believers can be dangerous and deadly.

[Moai]

With Islam you really can't, or are not suppose to be able to point to a religious leader to speak for them. I am sure CAIR or others would have said something against the murders if we were to search for the quote and without the double talk used when discussing Palistinian/Israeli relations.

 

I have, and they didn't. CAIR is a mouthpiece for terrorists anyway.

 

The actual numbers seem to be in conflict but Muslims make up a micro minority of Americans. Also something like 40% of American Muslims are Nation of Islam I guess more of an Islamic cult in my opinion. There just is not much of an oppurtunity to hear their voice to actually debate or "attack" their faith.

 

On other boards, the Muslims are not from the West, but there are a couple who live here. And they are violent, and claim they cannot wait to return to the Middle East and kill Americans.

 

British-born Muslims are becoming violent and a significant minority want Muslim law to be instituted in Britain, and think that those critical of Islam should be executed.

[sb129]

 

British-born Muslims are becoming violent and a significant minority want Muslim law to be instituted in Britain, and think that those critical of Islam should be executed.

Yes, I know, I have come into contact with several people who fall into this category.

 

Sikhs must carry a sharp knife on them all the time. Recently, an editorial appeared in an Indian newspaper that was critical of Sikhs and their behavior, and they rioted and demanded the author's head.

 

My boss is a Sikh. He is quite nice, although we have never discussed religion. Its not really that appropriate a topic for our line of work.

[sderenzi]

It's very simple really, those who are Christians are flawed, they are unable to think properly, there's something wrong with them that makes them believe god exists when there's no evidence (and even if their were it would be a deception). You see normal beings understand they exist because of the ongoing evolution of their species, cats, dogs, mice, all of them know their parents raised them and gave them food. For Christians they delve deeper into their pasts and make-up stories about god bringing about life, etc. Unfortunately scientists know this isn't true, and those who are really bright recognize this. Now I'm not talking about bright intellectually, I mean bright over-all. Plenty of Christians are educated and do well in life (making money) but this doesn't mean they're correct.

 

You see when you have a belief in something that is utter fantasy it shows there is a mistake somewhere, perhaps in your brain, that shoudl be corrected but was not. The brain is a remarkable thing and people go around every day believing they're self-aware even though many are not. Self-awareness has many levels, some of those are self-dellusion (as Christians are using) and others are self-realization. When the Christians try to spread their false nonsense on others it's self-dellusion, and they believe it so it's even worse. You'll never convince a Christian god doesn't exist because if they thought that way it would unravel their very minds and egos destroying whatever they thought they were.

 

This is why we hate Christians, because they are the total ignorance of humanity combined into a single person. God is unreal my friends, fantasy's don't mean ****e, and of course you won't believe this until you die so

 

I'd like to say one more thing, Christianity is more of an annoying religion so that is why people dislike it more, the other religions are quite and do not make alot of noise. And who wants to see some self-delluded happy shmoe running around all the time, that's exactly what Christians are (without knowing it).

 

This isn't hate it's just the way things are, you Christians did kill many people because you thought them witches, you tortured people in the inquisitions and now you wanna be all goody-goody, well forget it nobody forgets how much the church is a big hypocrite.

[taiko]

It's very simple really, those who are Christians are flawed, they are unable to think properly, there's something wrong with them that makes them believe god exists when there's no evidence (and even if their were it would be a deception). You see normal beings understand they exist because of the ongoing evolution of their species, cats, dogs, mice, all of them know their parents raised them and gave them food. For Christians they delve deeper into their pasts and make-up stories about god bringing about life, etc. Unfortunately scientists know this isn't true, and those who are really bright recognize this. Now I'm not talking about bright intellectually, I mean bright over-all. Plenty of Christians are educated and do well in life (making money) but this doesn't mean they're correct.

 

You see when you have a belief in something that is utter fantasy it shows there is a mistake somewhere, perhaps in your brain, that shoudl be corrected but was not. The brain is a remarkable thing and people go around every day believing they're self-aware even though many are not. Self-awareness has many levels, some of those are self-dellusion (as Christians are using) and others are self-realization. When the Christians try to spread their false nonsense on others it's self-dellusion, and they believe it so it's even worse. You'll never convince a Christian god doesn't exist because if they thought that way it would unravel their very minds and egos destroying whatever they thought they were.

 

This is why we hate Christians, because they are the total ignorance of humanity combined into a single person. God is unreal my friends, fantasy's don't mean ****e, and of course you won't believe this until you die so

 

I'd like to say one more thing, Christianity is more of an annoying religion so that is why people dislike it more, the other religions are quite and do not make alot of noise. And who wants to see some self-delluded happy shmoe running around all the time, that's exactly what Christians are (without knowing it).

 

This isn't hate it's just the way things are, you Christians did kill many people because you thought them witches, you tortured people in the inquisitions and now you wanna be all goody-goody, well forget it nobody forgets how much the church is a big hypocrite.

 

I guess you forgot the entire question, the reason for the thread. Why no mention of Islam with the same disfunctions? Why no mention of the multiple Hindi gods?

[elaina]

You are so right when you say I am flawed. I am. I am flawed and I sin. And I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. I know that he loves me in spite of my flaws and sins and he loves you in spite of your none belief. Just because we don't know for sure something exists, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And in my life your hate makes no difference, because it doesn't change God's love for all. And thank God he is there to guide this flawed human. You are also right about my life unraveling if he weren't in it.

 

Hmmmm, maybe you are and undercover Christian after all. You just pretend to hate, because you fear being loved by someone unconditionally.

 

Yep that true I agree me too I am flawed nobody needs to tell me that! But I am thankful for God's love and whether anybody calls me delusional or whatever I don't care cause I have experienced God's love and continue to and yeah it's hard not to be a hypocrite sometimes cause sometimes people can just bring out the worst in me but I am learning and hopefully growing in God and so anyways sderenzi I personally think you just like to fight hmm? Come on admit it. you're aching for a good fight! Why don't you buy a punching bag and label it "Christian" and have at it? Maybe you'll feel better yeah? Peace!

[disgracian]

Which leads me to wonder why such self-admittedly flawed people think they're in a position to tell the rest of the world what to believe and how to live.

 

Cheers,

D.

[elaina]

Which leads me to wonder why such self-admittedly flawed people think they're in a position to tell the rest of the world what to believe and how to live.

 

Cheers,

D.

 

Cause if you love someone and care for them, you want them to be healthy and happy right? Because I believe in God and believe that He helps me and saves me and gives me joy then I would like that for other people too. If I didn't care about them then why would I even bother sharing?

 

My Dad is always buying me vitamins and all that kind of stuff and you know what he does that is so sweet? He hides money in my car when I come visit at their home. (Dads, this is a really cool surprise if you do that and then call your kids up and say hey I hid some money, it is like wow my Dad is sooo cool! Anyways he insists on giving me vitamins and all that cause he wants me to be healthy (and happy.) He takes vitamins too.

 

I love God and He makes a positive difference in my life even though I'm not perfect, and so yeah of course I'd love to share about Him with the people cause God (and I) love people too. I don't love others quite as well as I should but I'm still learning, that's my excuse but hopefully am growing. Anyways it is bad when someone tries to force their beliefs on someone else that is not really love.

 

I have a friend who is Muslim who she tries to "revert" me. I don't get mad at her though cause I understand. She cares about me and thinks her belief is true and so of course she wants me to be Muslim too, same as I would love if she became a Christian but I love her and she's an awesome friend regardless of whether she does or doesn't become a Christian.

[disgracian]

It would be nice if everybody had respect for other people as you do. It would be nice if everybody just went about their lives and didn't concern themselves with what other people think or do in private.

 

Cheers,

D.

[disgracian]

Christians can and do tell the world what they should believe. They spend millions (probably billions) every year making sure of it. I really wish they would all just shut up about it unless asked.

 

Cheers,

D.

[Topper]

People are generally offended by the truth!

 

This in it's self speaks volumes for why fundamentalist Christians are called to task. They claim an exclusivity to Truth. That alone begs rebuttal. yes Those rebuttals can get heated.

[Moose]

This is why we hate Christians, because they are the total ignorance of humanity combined into a single person.

I don't think so. You seem to place Christianity as a battle between intellectuals. It's not.

 

Believe it or not, there are thousands, probably millions of Christian who are a lot brighter than you.

 

The battle however isn't over intellect, it's over morality.

 

Atheist just want a, "no excuse because there is no cause for one" society.

 

Get rid of all the Christians on Earth.....what would you have? How would you decipher what is right and what is wrong? Who get's to decide? Come on and tell us where the world would be right now if we had it your way? I'm curious.....really.....

[Topper]

I don't think so. You seem to place Christianity as a battle between intellectuals. It's not.

 

Believe it or not, there are thousands, probably millions of Christian who are a lot brighter than you.

 

The battle however isn't over intellect, it's over morality.

 

Atheist just want a, "no excuse because there is no cause for one" society.

 

Get rid of all the Christians on Earth.....what would you have? How would you decipher what is right and what is wrong? Who gets to decide? Come on and tell us where the world would be right now if we had it your way? I'm curious.....really.....

 

The ideals that we consider moral are not exclusive to christian thought or ideals. If anything we as a society have surpassed the Bible in it's morality.

The Greeks have had a great deal of influence on Our moral make up. So Have the Babylonians concepts of courts and laws. the bible even barrows form the older Egyptians when it comes to Morals and laws. The 10 commandments are almost an exact copy from the Egyptian book of the Dead. If anything I believe that Christianity held back advancements in science , education and western thought for at least 1000 years. This is not to put blame on God or Jesus. it is that those that controlled the faith used the faith to further their own control over humanity.

[burning 4 revenge]

The ideals that we consider moral are not exclusive to christian thought or ideals. If anything we as a society have surpassed the Bible in it's morality.

The Greeks have had a great deal of influence on Our moral make up. So Have the Babylonians concepts of courts and laws. the bible even barrows form the older Egyptians when it comes to Morals and laws. The 10 commandments are almost an exact copy from the Egyptian book of the Dead. If anything I believe that Christianity held back advancements in science , education and western thought for at least 1000 years. This is not to put blame on God or Jesus. it is that those that controlled the faith used the faith to further their own control over humanity.

Christianity was an improvement unless you think ritual human sacrifice for the sake of entertainment was a good example of secular morals. The Gentile countries benefitted from adopting the morality of the Jewish people who were far more advanced than our ancestors concerning questions of human rights.

 

But I think you're right that we have surapassed the Bible in terms of morality, I just think we needed it as part of that evolution

[disgracian]

No one can beat you over the head to become a Christian.

Plenty try.

If you find that you are feeling overwhelmed and angry about the bombardment, why not ignore it. Why engage it.

Ignoring it doesn't make it go away. My country is full of Christian lobby groups who would like nothing short of a theocracy, with creationism taught in schools as science, mandated prayer times (school and parliament) and so on. Instead of treating their faith as something personal, they want to drag it out into public and stick it in everybody's faces.

 

This is the sort of thing I'm tired of, and that's why I choose not to ignore but to engage. I want such people to realise how invasive and tribal they're being. I want them to see the situation from the other side of the fence, or imagine what it would be like if the tables were turned.

I hate pornography. I can't do anything about it. It is all over the t.v., magazines and airwaves. I can only change the channel, close the book, or put in a c.d. It doesn't have to become part of my life. And it doesn't effect my beliefs.

I don't think they compare. Firstly I think you're using a very exaggerated definition of pornography. I'll agree with you that TV is smutty, but yes you can turn it off and that solves the problem. I can't turn off Christians who lobby politicians to restrict my freedom and autonomy. They affect my life so much more deeply than having to avert your eyes from a bit of skin.

 

Cheers,

D.

[disgracian]

But I think you're right that we have surapassed the Bible in terms of morality, I just think we needed it as part of that evolution

There is truth in that. Life is change, and nothing stands still. Everything is just a link in the chain.

 

Cheers,

D.

[Moose]

Ignoring it doesn't make it go away.

I've got news for you, it's never going away.....

My country is full of Christian lobby groups who would like nothing short of a theocracy, with creationism taught in schools as science, mandated prayer times (school and parliament) and so on.

Nobody is forcing you to stay in, "your" country.....are they?

Instead of treating their faith as something personal, they want to drag it out into public and stick it in everybody's faces.

The majority of us do treat our faith as personal. Others ask us, and we tell them. Contrary to popular belief, America was founded by our Christian forefathers who put religion in our government and society themselves.

This is the sort of thing I'm tired of, and that's why I choose not to ignore but to engage.

And you wonder why there are Christian Evanglists? You're just as guilty being emotionally motivated for a, "personal" cause.

I can't turn off Christians who lobby politicians to restrict my freedom and autonomy.

Man.....honestly, I would leave too....

[disgracian]

Thanks for proving my point, Moose. I suppose it never occured to you to think that maybe the religious bigots should leave instead. I either have to tolerate their hatemongering or I have to run away, I can't stand up for what I believe?

 

What you fail to recognise (or refuse to), is that I'm not out to change anybody's mind or tell them how to live. I'm not interfering in the personal business of everybody outside my own beliefs. I'm railing against those that do, those who can't mind their own business. Those who want to convert, marginalise or criminalise everybody who see the world differently.

 

So I'm in no way whatsoever as guilty as an evangelist. I just want to be left alone, and if I was I wouldn't be complaining.

 

Contrary to your belief, America was founded as a secular nation, regardless of the beliefs of its founding fathers. I also happen to live in a supposedly secular nation, and I would really like for it to stay that way. The God-spam you find on your money and in your pledge wasn't added until the 1950s.

 

Cheers,

D.