He would rather lose me than man up at work

[Astounded]

We are not married but I have read LS for long enough to know that this is a better forum to ask for advice when it comes to a couple who is not exactly in high school

 

This is a very long story but I will do my best to keep it short. We're in our early 30s and have been together for less than a year but we are living together and are at the stage of discussing houses and children. I'm coming (right) out of a marriage and he has never had a long term relationship before me. - Before you presume wrongly no, I am not on the rebound and no, I have not just been through a painful divorce. Getting a divorce was the best thing for me, I'm more than pleased with the idea and the entire civilized execution of it and to a degree so is my ex. -

 

My boyfriend is truly amazing in most ways. We're (still;)) very much in love and compatible in most ways that count. Believe it or not this is not a bragging post, there is a problem. His work. Or rather, his attitude towards it. He is a programmer and has been with the same company all of his working life, so for the past 9 or 10 years. He's also a very minor partner in the company (a very small package that returns no profit, never has). Before I entered his life his company meant ridiculously low pay, long hours, nights and weekends in terms of work and weekly drinking sprees organized by the single (and rather desperate:laugh:) female colleagues.

 

At the beginning of our relationship I didn't quite sense anything was off past the fact that I found the parties of doubtful moral status. I thought his work load coincidentally was higher than normal. As time passed it became clear that the weekends of work were not an accident as much as the expected norm. The evenings and nights as well. It also became clear that he is treated badly by the management that finds it normal to overflow him with work, order him around and call at all hours of the night with more work. (I have a rather high-powered job that may take me places career wise and I still put everything aside and focus on him in the evenings and weekends.)

 

We've discussed this at all lengths. He claims he sees all these, the lack of career growth perspective, the low pay, the menaces to go out drinking, the way they take advantage of him, he says he doesn't like it and that it has to do with his inability to stand up to them. We've narrowed it down to a self esteem issue and he says he is willing and trying to work on it. Meanwhile, nothing changes and my respect for him and ultimately my faith in him and us are fading.

 

Needless to say but all of the above is a problem. Granted it's not an infidelity issue, it's not a severe betrayal situation and yet to me, to us, it's crucial. I've tried to figure out what it is that upsets me most and makes me ponder leaving him (he is aware of this) and the best I can come up with, is how it's a combination between having to powerlessly watch him degrade himself in front of these people for no reason other than not being able to stand up for himself, and the fact that he sees and knows all these things hurt me and make me feel disrespected and insufficiently important and yet he is not correcting them.

 

If you read this far, thank you. My question is.... is this incompatibility that can't be mended, is this a character flaw in him that behavioral therapy could not solve or could we benefit from trying couples' counseling?

[Mr. Lucky]

We've discussed this at all lengths. He claims he sees all these, the lack of career growth perspective, the low pay, the menaces to go out drinking, the way they take advantage of him, he says he doesn't like it and that it has to do with his inability to stand up to them. We've narrowed it down to a self esteem issue and he says he is willing and trying to work on it. Meanwhile, nothing changes and my respect for him and ultimately my faith in him and us are fading.

Always surprising to me how many women see their partners as the relationship equivalent of a "home improvement project". The thinking seems to be something along the lines of "I'm going to keep this, remodel that and that parts got to go!" Unfortunately, life doesn't work like that.

 

Maybe your BF has chosen that field because he enjoys the work. Perhaps he spends time with his co-workers because he enjoys their company. And maybe you opinion that they are "desperate", "self esteem issues", "treated badly" and "taken advantage of" reflects your own biases and projections regarding his situation. In short, it sounds as though, although it doesn't measure up to YOUR standards, he was happy with it before he met you...

 

Mr. Lucky

[reboot]

he was happy with it before he met you...

Yes, but then he was just "him". Now he is part of "them". It's a big difference.

[Phateless]

If you read this far, thank you. My question is.... is this incompatibility that can't be mended, is this a character flaw in him that behavioral therapy could not solve or could we benefit from trying couples' counseling?

 

Yes. If he can't be assertive enough to not get raped by the management, he's never going to be assertive enough to discuss heavy relationship issues in a mature manner. Why do you think he's never had a long-term relationship before, at 31 years old? Over time, he will build resentment toward you for things that HE should have talked about but was too afraid to bring up, and start acting passive-agressively. You can't talk someone into self-esteem and self-confidence, believe me, I've tried. My friends have also tried to do this for me and, it was only in the past year that it all finally came together. I had to do it on my own, and I did it by recovering from my breakup, which was the hardest thing I have ever gone through.

 

I was in therapy for several years, and it helped, but only slightly. It has to be an intrinsic desire to change.

 

Go to couples counseling, send him to individual therapy (without you there) and maybe he'll improve a little. I'm not optimistic that it will help very much with this guy, but it's still worth trying.

 

 

Why not just bypass this whole issue? Tell him to put a resume together and to start shopping for another job. Once the current company hears that he's got a better offer of higher pay, better hours, and more respect, they might change their tune. Or maybe he'll just sack up (for the first time in his life, it sounds...) and go with the better offer?

 

Good luck.

[sb129]

While I totally see your point of view, to expect your BF to stand up to the only employer he has ever had is quite a big expectation.

 

He is probably terrified of the consequences, and maybe he feels "Better the devil you know"- 10 years is an awfully long time, and familiarity and habitual routines are very hard to let go of at the best of times.

 

He might not feel confident about finding a new job, he might feel that pleasing you could be an impossible task- all things that will act as barriers to him moving away from his current employer.

 

Its a tough one. I highly doubt he would rather lose you over his job.

 

He most likely feels stuck between a rock and a hard place, and can't quite see how to get out.

[sb129]

You can't talk someone into self-esteem and self-confidence, believe me, I've tried. My friends have also tried to do this for me and, it was only in the past year that it all finally came together. I had to do it on my own, and I did it by recovering from my breakup, which was the hardest thing I have ever gone through.

 

I was in therapy for several years, and it helped, but only slightly. It has to be an intrinsic desire to change.

 

Oh this is so true! Snap Phateless. My situation sounds really similar to yours- isn't it great to be out the other side?

[Phateless]

While I totally see your point of view, to expect your BF to stand up to the only employer he has ever had is quite a big expectation.

 

He is probably terrified of the consequences, and maybe he feels "Better the devil you know"- 10 years is an awfully long time, and familiarity and habitual routines are very hard to let go of at the best of times.

 

He might not feel confident about finding a new job, he might feel that pleasing you could be an impossible task- all things that will act as barriers to him moving away from his current employer.

 

Its a tough one. I highly doubt he would rather lose you over his job.

 

He most likely feels stuck between a rock and a hard place, and can't quite see how to get out.

 

SB129 - you're defending this poor guy's insecurities. Insecurities are a stupid reason to do anything, they only hinder you in life. I completely understand how this guy feels, but if he lets that paralyze him... that's a major red flag.

[tanbark813]

Finding a new job isn't the answer. I'm a software engineer and long hours are par for the course. Every job I've had management has expected more than a 40 hour week and I've had to push back a bit so as to keep a decent quality of life.

 

Your husband needs to learn to be able to stand up for himself so he doesn't get overworked and gains some respect from management, like you said, but he either has to do that at his current job or the next one. Simply changing companies won't fix anything.

[Phateless]

Oh this is so true! Snap Phateless. My situation sounds really similar to yours- isn't it great to be out the other side?

 

Oh my GAWD, yes!!!!! I've been single for just over a year and I'm having a ball... I have dates for days, tons of fun, and a whole new control over my life that I've never had before. It's amazing.

[Phateless]

Finding a new job isn't the answer. I'm a software engineer and long hours are par for the course. Every job I've had management has expected more than a 40 hour week and I've had to push back a bit so as to keep a decent quality of life.

 

Your husband needs to learn to be able to stand up for himself so he doesn't get overworked and gains some respect from management, like you said, but he either has to do that at his current job or the next one. Simply changing companies won't fix anything.

 

Work is like a family. Once people become set in a role, it's very difficult to change the role. This company expects him to behave the way he does and they won't take kindly to him suddenly changing. Granted, extended hours are the norm, but this sounds like an extreme case where he's getting taken advantage of. If he pushes back now, after 10 years, you think they'll just apologize and start being reasonable? No, they're going to try to force him back into subordination. With a new company, he can start fresh. It's a lot easier to maintain respect than to build it from scratch.

[tanbark813]

Work is like a family. Once people become set in a role, it's very difficult to change the role. This company expects him to behave the way he does and they won't take kindly to him suddenly changing. Granted, extended hours are the norm, but this sounds like an extreme case where he's getting taken advantage of. If he pushes back now, after 10 years, you think they'll just apologize and start being reasonable? No, they're going to try to force him back into subordination. With a new company, he can start fresh. It's a lot easier to maintain respect than to build it from scratch.

 

I disagree. I pushed back after a year and it wasn't a problem. It's not the same as 10 years but it's along the same lines. Plus, if he's been there that long then unless he's a slacker--which it doesn't sound like he is--then they'll consider him very valuable to the company and won't want to lose him. Believe me, finding decent programmers is a pain in the ass.

[Phateless]

I disagree. I pushed back after a year and it wasn't a problem. It's not the same as 10 years but it's along the same lines. Plus, if he's been there that long then unless he's a slacker--which it doesn't sound like he is--then they'll consider him very valuable to the company and won't want to lose him. Believe me, finding decent programmers is a pain in the ass.

 

Touche, good point. I just don't think this guy has anywhere near the assertiveness to pull that off. Quite frankly, most managers will realize they can quickly push him back into submission. He needs to approach the boss with another offer in hand and say "unless these things change, I'm gone".

[tanbark813]

Touche, good point. I just don't think this guy has anywhere near the assertiveness to pull that off. Quite frankly, most managers will realize they can quickly push him back into submission. He needs to approach the boss with another offer in hand and say "unless these things change, I'm gone".

 

Yeah, definitely. If he's been putting up with it this long then I would be surprised if he found it in himself to change things (assuming he wants to).

[sb129]

SB129 - you're defending this poor guy's insecurities. Insecurities are a stupid reason to do anything, they only hinder you in life. I completely understand how this guy feels, but if he lets that paralyze him... that's a major red flag.

 

Yes, I know, BUT as you said, the only person who can ultimately change that is HIM.

 

If he loses his GF in the process, that may illustrate to him how he shouldn't let them get the better of him. He has to want to do this for himself as well.

 

BTW- re: self esteem and all that, I am actually now engaged to the man of my dreams, but going thru all that break up recovery bollocks gave me the self worth to recognise a great man when he came along, so life is good.

[Phateless]

Yes, I know, BUT as you said, the only person who can ultimately change that is HIM.

 

If he loses his GF in the process, that may illustrate to him how he shouldn't let them get the better of him. He has to want to do this for himself as well.

 

BTW- re: self esteem and all that, I am actually now engaged to the man of my dreams, but going thru all that break up recovery bollocks gave me the self worth to recognise a great man when he came along, so life is good.

 

Agreed. Losing my girl is what inspired me to change who I am. Congrats to you for finding the right one. I'm hoping that I'm not far off from that, although being single is a blast, I'm starting to feel like kind of a man-slut.

[Cobra_X30]

If you read this far, thank you. My question is.... is this incompatibility that can't be mended, is this a character flaw in him that behavioral therapy could not solve or could we benefit from trying couples' counseling?

 

First... Did you begin dating him before you recieved your divorce?

 

To be honest, you need to accept him as he is, or leave him as he is.

[michaelk]

Ask yourself if you're willing to love him as he is, because that's all you can ever ask of another person - to be who they are. Sure, he could go to therapy and maybe he'll change, but don't stay with the expectation that he's going to change.

 

You may see him as having character flaws, but if he's happy the way he is, leave him be. It's not your job, or even your right, to mold him into your 'ideal man'. And as others here have already pointed out, even if he's not happy the way he is, he's never going to change until he decides he wants to.

[Mr. Lucky]

is this a character flaw in him that behavioral therapy could not solve or could we benefit from trying couples' counseling?

I'm thinking eltro-shock therapy would be the right tool to mold him into the hard-charging go getter she's looking for...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Ladyjane14]

I'm with the guys on this... the man is either what you're looking for or he isn't. If you try to turn him into a "home improvement project", you're likely to end up frustrated and disappointed.

 

Check out threads by a4a, who's been dealing with an less than ambitious mate. (Where the heck is she, btw? She hasn't posted in a month. )

 

You can find her in the Members List at the "Quick Links" pull-down. She's a scream too, just gorgeously funny. ... both entertaining *AND* educational.

[Mr. Lucky]

(Where the heck is she, btw? She hasn't posted in a month. )

You know, I was just wondering the same thing the other day. She went from posting many times a day to ???. Maybe she got on to one of her horses and rode off into the sunset...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

BTW - I hope she's OK!

[Astounded]

Phatless, Tanbark, reboot, sb129 thank you for understanding and there were some very helpful suggesstions there. Namely the whole debate on standing one's ground wherever one would be is very valid but whoever said that a new environment would be a clean slate and a better chance to redefine the working relationship, was right.

 

LadyJane, cobra and Lucky.... I know what you mean. I can definitely see how it would come off that way. He is not a "home improvement project" to me in the least and while I understand why you misread my intentions and extrapolated this one situation to me wanting this model with a completely different engine, I can assure you that is not the case. I do a rather impressive "scan" on people I meet and obtain rather accurate data so very little about his qualities or lack of is a surprise or something I saw as a future undertaking.

 

This is not a case of my wanting him to be a world renowed software engineer that writes open source, goes to conferences, interviews on TV and makes buckets of money (not that any of those exist, do they?). This is a case of a situation that upsets him and me both and of him looking at me for direction as to how to deal with it from an emotional point of view and me not being able to efficiently help.

 

Had I read this post from someone other I would think the exact same thing though "overly ambitions demanding b#%"&, poor fellow" so it's okay, I see where you're coming from.

 

I am not of the school claiming that whatever is there in our mate at the time that we meet them needs to remain intact and never change. It changes all the time. Is the lasting change internal? You bet. Which is why I haven't imposed my will and ordered him to get a new job, wrote his work in indignation or locked him in the house.

 

With the theory out of the way, I have some news on the development already. Yesterday he's had yet another talk with one of the bosses trying to make him see the light on the connection between deadlines and overworking him as well as on how he's being treated and his performance. Whether he was too subtle or not, he got the same reaction, a mixture between coldness and a FU attitude. In the evening he's told me he decided to look for another job and have at least an offer or two before confronting them again from a more firm ground. He did more than decide, last night he wrote a cover letter and started on updating a CV.

 

During the conversation I've enthusiastically agreed to help with the CV, finding ads, whatever else it takes and I've also grilled him to see that this was more than just a reaction to me. It was, he has reasons for "I want better" that I had no idea about. He has given this thought and hard as I do realize it is and will be all things considered, he will be doing the right thing. For him first and foremost.

 

SO..... this was not wanting him to change, this was hoping that he can bring himself to using his strengths and that he can take a hard look at his life and what he wants work and yours truly included. This is the bragging part. I am immensly lucky, he's wonderful.

[Phateless]

Phatless, Tanbark, reboot, sb129 thank you for understanding and there were some very helpful suggesstions there. Namely the whole debate on standing one's ground wherever one would be is very valid but whoever said that a new environment would be a clean slate and a better chance to redefine the working relationship, was right.

 

LadyJane, cobra and Lucky.... I know what you mean. I can definitely see how it would come off that way. He is not a "home improvement project" to me in the least and while I understand why you misread my intentions and extrapolated this one situation to me wanting this model with a completely different engine, I can assure you that is not the case. I do a rather impressive "scan" on people I meet and obtain rather accurate data so very little about his qualities or lack of is a surprise or something I saw as a future undertaking.

 

This is not a case of my wanting him to be a world renowed software engineer that writes open source, goes to conferences, interviews on TV and makes buckets of money (not that any of those exist, do they?). This is a case of a situation that upsets him and me both and of him looking at me for direction as to how to deal with it from an emotional point of view and me not being able to efficiently help.

 

Had I read this post from someone other I would think the exact same thing though "overly ambitions demanding b#%"&, poor fellow" so it's okay, I see where you're coming from.

 

I am not of the school claiming that whatever is there in our mate at the time that we meet them needs to remain intact and never change. It changes all the time. Is the lasting change internal? You bet. Which is why I haven't imposed my will and ordered him to get a new job, wrote his work in indignation or locked him in the house.

 

With the theory out of the way, I have some news on the development already. Yesterday he's had yet another talk with one of the bosses trying to make him see the light on the connection between deadlines and overworking him as well as on how he's being treated and his performance. Whether he was too subtle or not, he got the same reaction, a mixture between coldness and a FU attitude. In the evening he's told me he decided to look for another job and have at least an offer or two before confronting them again from a more firm ground. He did more than decide, last night he wrote a cover letter and started on updating a CV.

 

During the conversation I've enthusiastically agreed to help with the CV, finding ads, whatever else it takes and I've also grilled him to see that this was more than just a reaction to me. It was, he has reasons for "I want better" that I had no idea about. He has given this thought and hard as I do realize it is and will be all things considered, he will be doing the right thing. For him first and foremost.

 

SO..... this was not wanting him to change, this was hoping that he can bring himself to using his strengths and that he can take a hard look at his life and what he wants work and yours truly included. This is the bragging part. I am immensly lucky, he's wonderful.

 

That's so great to hear! I'm glad we could be of service. I think once he sees how enthusiastic other companies are about hiring him, he will start to see his own self-worth. Think of it as empirical proof that he is a desirable and employable person.

[Mr. Lucky]

You bet. Which is why I haven't imposed my will and ordered him to get a new job, wrote his work in indignation or locked him in the house.

You know Astounded, you sound like a very intelligent person. Well-written, articulate and organized, I'm sure you're an asset to whatever company is fortunate enough to have you. But those management skills that get you ahead in the office can be poison in a relationship. "Impose your will" on your BF? Post back here in 6 months and let us know how it's going...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Racquel Colette]

Apparently he enjoys going out drinking with the girls at work, of whom you are clearly jealous. No one is handcuffing him and dragging him out to these parties.

I don't think you two are a good match. He has to want to change his situation; apparently he doesn't or he would have left by now or at least looked for another job. You either like him for the job he has and he apparently likes, or you leave him.

[sb129]

Astounded, that is great news.

 

Now the tough part for you is going to be sitting back, and letting him get on with it.

 

As tempting as it may be, don't look for jobs he "should apply for", and don't constantly ask him about it. The ball has started to roll, and how fast it rolls now is up to him.

 

Just be supportive- applying for new jobs can be demoralising as well, and he will need your support if he gets any setbacks.