Conversation with a cheater

[Scrivdog]

Scrivdog, Was that your way of saying you aren't getting any? (From your wife anyway).

 

When's the last time you took her out to dinner, helped her with the kids, sent her for a massage, gave her a hug and a kiss without it being a precursor to sex?

 

You might want to think about her needs, because she has them too, and something tells me they aren't being met either.

 

You say something tells you her needs aren't being met? Where do you get that from? Tarot cards?

 

In any case yes, all evidence points to her being met. I have done all the above and more. Lots of guys on this forum who had the same problem have, not just me. I have had many conversations with her about her needs and given her all sorts of opportunities to easily bring them up- if any are not being met. She has brought up none. So I have no reason to think they are not.

 

Have you ever considered that some wives - since they're needs for security, money, home, and family are being met, cause them to have no concern for those of their husbands?

[Impudent Oyster]

If all your wife's needs are being met, and you're a wonderful husband who treats his wife with love and respect and she refuses to reciprocate, then I guess you only have one option, and that is to divorce.

 

If you really loved your kids you wouldn't cheat on their mother, because when you lie to her you're lying to them. When you're out with the OW that's time you're stealing from THEM. You owe them that. There's no sense in being in a fake marriage for appearances sake, that's not helping them and kids aren't stupid. Eventually they'll figure out what you're doing and they'll hate you for it, and they won't care what your reasons were.

[Scrivdog]

That's where we disagree. I think divorce is a worse option. If I thought it was better - I'd leave. Believe me - life would be alot easier that way.

 

But there's no way I'll be seeing them only every other weekend and on Wednesday nights. There's no way I'm letting them be in a position to be molested by their mother's new boyfriend because he's a closet pedo.

 

If all your wife's needs are being met, and you're a wonderful husband who treats his wife with love and respect and she refuses to reciprocate, then I guess you only have one option, and that is to divorce.

 

If you really loved your kids you wouldn't cheat on their mother, because when you lie to her you're lying to them. When you're out with the OW that's time you're stealing from THEM. You owe them that. There's no sense in being in a fake marriage for appearances sake, that's not helping them and kids aren't stupid. Eventually they'll figure out what you're doing and they'll hate you for it, and they won't care what your reasons were.

[Cobra_X30]

And Cobra, your cause and effect model was a little too basic for me, no effense. I wonder why such an intelligent guy like you is not married? How old are you? I hope you're not too picky to ever get married. It's just that your standards are already high and I wonder where you're going to find Miss Right? I am really saying this with a thoughtful and caring voice, btw.

 

To the point of this thread. Yes, it is simplistic, as it is supposed to be. Yet it captures the essence of the dilemma does it not? The complexity comes from you who reads it.

 

Understand that Herenow, wants to look at those who do not feel that an affair puts thier marriage at risk. I do not think that you fit that situation. I do not believe your M holds enough value to you for any of this to apply.

 

LOL... my standards? I don't have standards, as interesting as that may sound. Instead I have boundaries. Perhaps a result of bieng a prolific dater. I am not married for one simple reason. I dont have the need at the moment. I dont want anyone that close. Those of us who have lost greatly through events beyond control.... ah.... I suppose it doesnt matter what I say here.... live, laugh, love, whatever, whomever, whenever

 

Boy, that is some kinda "love"!!

Hmmm... Maybe he's not married BECAUSE he's intelligent. To be sure, there's not a whole lot of logic and common sense involved in getting hitched these days. It's just too risky.

 

Hmmm... I will not feel bad in taking steps to protect my assets. However, a good wife is more precious than any amount of $$$.

 

For too many marriage is simply an economic contract, or a child rearing pact. But you already know this.

[Impudent Oyster]

That's where we disagree. I think divorce is a worst option. If I thought it was better - I'd leave. Believe me - life would be alot easier that way.

 

But there's no way I'll be seeing them only every other weekend and on Wednesday nights. There's no way I'm letting them be in a position to be molested by their mother's new boyfriend because he's a closet pedo.

 

Your wife's boyfriend is a pedophile?

 

Look, if you don't want to get divorced, don't. But then don't whine about your miserable marriage, because it's your choice to stay in it.

 

It's like the guy who goes to the doctor and complains that his arm hurts when he chops wood. Stop chopping wood.

[JamesM]

Enough with the insinuation that once a cheater always a cheater, because that is not always the case. No matter what it's OUR lives and OUR choices, so if you don't hear us complaining about those choices, please do us the favor of not complaining for us.

 

I agree with this 100%. I know a number of marriages where the one time cheater reformed and the marriage is better than before. But the ones who won't change are the serial cheaters...who always start with one.

 

When's the last time you took her out to dinner, helped her with the kids, sent her for a massage, gave her a hug and a kiss without it being a precursor to sex?

 

You might want to think about her needs, because she has them too, and something tells me they aren't being met either.

 

As a guy who lives in a marriage with little sex, this can have nothing to do with the lack of sex. My wife and I have lunch dates every week. We have more time to converse than many spouses. Sending her for a massage will not help...unless I give her the massage. And I love to give her hugs and kisses with no other thoughts. Yet nothing seems to get her passionate again. I guarantee if she talked with you, she would tell you that I am a great husband and friend. In her mind we do have a great relationship. Outside of sex we do, but this area would make it so much better.

 

So, why would I cheat? Because I have finally given up on ever getting her to change in this area, and i felt our friendship was dead. No, I have hope yet. And she is my best friend. We have had open conversations about this...yesterday in fact. She feels it is her in some physical way, and I know that if she felt it was me...she would tell me. She is quite open.

 

A cheater needs to live a double life and love it. Many men like the fact that they have some secret life that gives them feeling of satisfaction. It is a passive anger against a wife who they think does not fulfill their needs. It is the knowledge that gives them a certain superiority..."I have a secret lover." It gives them a feeling of machoism. It gives their live that same excitement when they were young. It gives them a thrill.

 

A cheater does not think he will get caught, and he does not think that his wife will be hurt. In fact, he needs to separate her feelings from his excitement. He can love two women in his own way simply because that is how he looks at it. It is no different than if here were dating two women in high school again. One provides him with a family and domestic security, while the other one provides the thrill of a mistress. Since he departmentalizes this, he can separate his two worlds. The thrill of a secret life and the skill of keeping it secret gives him a renewed energy not felt in years.

 

BUT....it all comes crashing down when it is revealed. Suddenly, the thrill disappears, and his supposed love for the OW vanishes. He then realizes that what he thought he could get away with is about to ruin his secure world. And if he is forced to make a choice, he usually steps back nito his real world and leaves the fantasy world behind. His mistress is simply that...someone who is there to meet HIS needs. His wife is really the one he wants a commitment with.

 

Most men cheat...because they can. And the reality is...it is based on some need that they seek lacking in their marriage. Rather than facing their failures as a man, they avoid confrontation and show their frustration and anger passively by having an affair.

 

 

Just some thoughts.

[Impudent Oyster]

Yet nothing seems to get her passionate again. I guarantee if she talked with you, she would tell you that I am a great husband and friend. In her mind we do have a great relationship. Outside of sex we do, but this area would make it so much better.

 

 

James, this may be redundent but have you ever explored whether there are physiological reasons for her lack of a sex-drive? It's very common in women, maybe a prescription would help considerably in that regard.

 

Has she been to a doctor about her low libido? It wouldn't hurt. She may have very low testosterone levels. It sounds to me like you have a good, solid marriage, it would be a shame to compromise it over a simple medical issue that could be easily resolved.

[Impudent Oyster]

Also, and I'm going to get very personal here so please don't answer, I don't expect you to, she may not be having orgasms. Most women cannot orgasm through intercourse alone. Almost none in fact, so if she's not having orgasms then, well, sex is pretty much a chore and not much fun at all.

 

It would make the difference between her loving sex and dreading it as just an exercise in frustration.

 

Just something for you to think about.

[Cobra_X30]

Your wife's boyfriend is a pedophile?

 

That's far more common than you could ever imagine!

 

Besides your failing to grasp the non-divorce option.

 

Scriv, I would suggest openly telling your wife that she either meet your needs... or be prepared to live in an open marriage! It's like a tactical nuke... that may get her eyes open.

 

Unless your afraid she will seek a divorce rather than fix things? At which point I seriously question how important you are to her!

[herenow]

Sorry I didn't have a chance to post last night, it was Xmas tree time at our house.

 

Cobra, I wanted to say that you and I are not far off from our opinions here. If you read my post you would see that i say that "I don't understand how someone could feel that way".

 

My husbands point of view, and I agree, is that he didn't love anyone at the time he was having an affair. Not even himself. He knows that the last thing he was showing me while having sex with another woman was love. That's why I questioned my friend's H when he said what he did. The only thing I could think of that would make sense is that he didn't realize it until he was faced with that reality. Call it denial or ignorance or even justification, but I do believe that at the time, for whatever reason (only he can answer) he didn't think he was risking his marriage. I still find this hard to believe and that's where you and I seem to agree.

[Mz. Pixie]

I agree that one should never stay in a neglectful situation, as long as the issues are effectively communicated during the course of the marriage. Having said that, you walk from unmet needs, not lie and cheat.

 

There's no excuse for cheating, regardless of situation. Any attempt to justify cheating is just that, justification.

 

Are you certain you've addressed your issues?

 

Yes, I'm certain but thank you for asking.

 

If you've read many of my posts you will see where I have constantly said that it was the wrong choice for me to have an affair.

 

I don't have to justify anything to anyone period. I know what situation I was in better than anyone else does. I constantly effectively communicated my needs to my H over and over. There are numerous posts on this board about how it was done. In a point blank manner. There was none of this "If he loved me he'd know".

 

You just simply sometimes get broke down, tired and sick. You believe that your spouse doesn't love you because their actions do not reflect that.

 

The fact are that he never thought I'd leave and he didn't think I could leave- so he had no motivation to change- despite the fact that he promised me continually he'd start meeting my needs and never did. Or he would try until he got sex the next time and then that would be over.

 

Still, no matter what he did to me I shouldn't have stepped outside the marriage.

 

I'm a giver and he was a taker- if you've read Dr. Harley's principals of the giver and the taker- and effectively after 12 years of just giving and never receiving, well, it got a little old.

 

There is alot of childhood trauma I've had to work through to see exactly what made me vulnerable to have an affair- that I won't go into and bore anyone with- because you're only going to think I'm using that for justification and I'm not. I see now clearly why I react to things the way I do and how for a long time I needed validation from men because I never had any from my father. Quite simply, those were my issues and not my exh's- but I think we both discounted the effect that my childhood had on me.

 

No matter what someone who has cheated before says, someone is going to try to turn it into justification. It's not, it's simply a reason. The person asking the questions I believe wants to hear the WS say how horrible a person they are etc- and when they do not get that reaction it makes them angry. Trust me, I've had enough guilt to last me a lifetime but I certainly do not believe that one mistake makes me a horrible person. In fact, I know it doesn't.

[herenow]

If my H had said that he loved me while he was with the OW, I would never what that kind of love and I wouldn't have given him a second chance. It wasn't until he showed me that he was willing to make some very significant life changes that I realized that we could work together to build the type of love that we have now.

[Scrivdog]

The fact are that he never thought I'd leave and he didn't think I could leave- so he had no motivation to change- despite the fact that he promised me continually he'd start meeting my needs and never did.

Key point right there. The guy thought he owned you and therefore saw no reason to make any effort to keep things good. Some people think a marriage license is a certificate of ownership.

 

No matter what someone who has cheated before says, someone is going to try to turn it into justification. It's not, it's simply a reason. The person asking the questions I believe wants to hear the WS say how horrible a person they are etc- and when they do not get that reaction it makes them angry.

That's is the pattern here.

[JamesM]

James, this may be redundent but have you ever explored whether there are physiological reasons for her lack of a sex-drive? It's very common in women, maybe a prescription would help considerably in that regard.

 

Has she been to a doctor about her low libido? It wouldn't hurt. She may have very low testosterone levels. It sounds to me like you have a good, solid marriage, it would be a shame to compromise it over a simple medical issue that could be easily resolved.

 

Sorry...off topic. There are a number of possible reasons. Physiological, sexual abuse in childhood, and more. The physiological seems to be the one. (Sexual abuse has been dealt with before and she does not think this is the reason. Since I have been in tune to this, I don't either). She has mentioned to her doctor about it before, but they (IMO) don't seem to give it as much thought as they should. Just yesterday when we talked about it (because of an article in the paper), she thought that she should go to her gynecologist for tests. But the thing is...she doesn't have a hunger for sex, so the urgency is not there. What I need to get through to her...and must not be yet...is that if it is important to me, then maybe it is important to her marriage.

 

She is on a number of prescripts, and from my research, the only meds available are hormones...which can cause cancer. And as she asked me when reading that article, "do you want me to take a pill that would increase my risk for heart disease or cancer so that I would want sex?" While this is an obvious answer, I truly meant it when I said emphatically, "No."

 

Also, and I'm going to get very personal here so please don't answer, I don't expect you to, she may not be having orgasms. Most women cannot orgasm through intercourse alone. Almost none in fact, so if she's not having orgasms then, well, sex is pretty much a chore and not much fun at all.

 

Hey, I get real personal on this Board. No, she cannot orgasm through intercourse or at least not very often. Whether that is her or me, I don't know. I certainly have no problems practicing more often to improve my skills. But she orgasms quite well through oral, and she likes it. The catch is....when you think of sex and orgasms, then you have a desire. For her, the desire to have one is not there. In the past, she had this desire. SO, this is what makes me think it is physiological. Yes, it could be over work, children, emotional, or other psychological reasons, but she says she never gets these desires anymore.

 

Sorry, herenow for the change in topic. But yes, I do wrestle with thoughts of cheating more often than I like. I am thankful that so far the opportunity has not risen when the desire was there. Usually, I am "dumb enough" to indicate to a woman rather quickly that I am married, so that any interest on my part would be obvious cheating.

 

Most cheaters do not plan on cheating. It is something that comes because of a work relationship or a deepening friendship that comes at a time when the cheater is vulnerable. Much as we like to villify the man/woman who does the cheating, I can understand that many do it out of frustration with their situation. It is easy to say...then divorce before having an affair. Just like the BS who before would have never stayed with a cheater and now does, so a cheater usually never thinks he or she would cheat. It is a step by step thing that ends up in an affair. The woman who comes on to a man in a vulnerable moment appears more attractive than if he were single or happy in marriage. The woman who touches a man in obvious attraction and makes the man feel sexually attractive when his wife no longer cares for him physically.....these are some of the initial invitations for a man whose defenses are done.

 

While it is easy to say that a cheater has no excuse for cheating, it is just as easy to say that many of the so called victims of cheating could have helped prevent the cheater from being put into a position to feel vulnerable to cheating. The problem is that they rarely get told that there needs to be a change prior to the affair, or it could be that they don't take the pleas/yells for help very seriously. Many cheaters do so without really attempting to fix the areas that they see as a problem.

 

Each affair has three people at least who have made choices. The MM/MW who chose each little step that led to the affair. The OW/OM who allowed him or herself to "fall in love" with a man or woman who was already committed to someone else, and the one who rarely gets any "blame" is the BS who could have prevented some of the affairs that occurred. A good marriage is the best defense against an affair.

 

While we (my wife and I) have a big problem in the sex area of our marriage, the fact that we (truthfully, mainly I) keep working at the communication and other areas outside of sex, I think is why we have been able to survive this. Of course, the fact that I found this Board has something to do with it as well.

 

Cheating is not as simple as it sounds. It is not an evil man or woman who suddenly plans to have an affair while he or she is in a perfect marriage. Yes, it is a person who has decided whether consciously or unconsciously to break a commitment. But most cheaters were put into a position of frustration by a marriage that is far from perfect. This may be mostly the cheater's fault, but it is never all of the cheater's fault.

 

 

(There are exceptions to all of my comments, I am sure. None of these comments were intended to hurt those people who have been betrayed in a marriage from an affair. Nor does it give an excuse for an affair. As one who by some standards has every excuse to have an affair, I know that commitment can override vulnerabilities).

 

Enough said.

[Impudent Oyster]

Hmmm..how does she feel about her body? Does she feel desirable? Is she self-conscious? That can also hamper a persons libido.

[Mz. Pixie]

Sorry...off topic. There are a number of possible reasons. Physiological, sexual abuse in childhood, and more. The physiological seems to be the one. (Sexual abuse has been dealt with before and she does not think this is the reason. Since I have been in tune to this, I don't either). She has mentioned to her doctor about it before, but they (IMO) don't seem to give it as much thought as they should. Just yesterday when we talked about it (because of an article in the paper), she thought that she should go to her gynecologist for tests. But the thing is...she doesn't have a hunger for sex, so the urgency is not there. What I need to get through to her...and must not be yet...is that if it is important to me, then maybe it is important to her marriage.

 

She is on a number of prescripts, and from my research, the only meds available are hormones...which can cause cancer. And as she asked me when reading that article, "do you want me to take a pill that would increase my risk for heart disease or cancer so that I would want sex?" While this is an obvious answer, I truly meant it when I said emphatically, "No."

 

 

 

Hey, I get real personal on this Board. No, she cannot orgasm through intercourse or at least not very often. Whether that is her or me, I don't know. I certainly have no problems practicing more often to improve my skills. But she orgasms quite well through oral, and she likes it. The catch is....when you think of sex and orgasms, then you have a desire. For her, the desire to have one is not there. In the past, she had this desire. SO, this is what makes me think it is physiological. Yes, it could be over work, children, emotional, or other psychological reasons, but she says she never gets these desires anymore.

 

Sorry, herenow for the change in topic. But yes, I do wrestle with thoughts of cheating more often than I like. I am thankful that so far the opportunity has not risen when the desire was there. Usually, I am "dumb enough" to indicate to a woman rather quickly that I am married, so that any interest on my part would be obvious cheating.

 

Most cheaters do not plan on cheating. It is something that comes because of a work relationship or a deepening friendship that comes at a time when the cheater is vulnerable. Much as we like to villify the man/woman who does the cheating, I can understand that many do it out of frustration with their situation. It is easy to say...then divorce before having an affair. Just like the BS who before would have never stayed with a cheater and now does, so a cheater usually never thinks he or she would cheat. It is a step by step thing that ends up in an affair. The woman who comes on to a man in a vulnerable moment appears more attractive than if he were single or happy in marriage. The woman who touches a man in obvious attraction and makes the man feel sexually attractive when his wife no longer cares for him physically.....these are some of the initial invitations for a man whose defenses are done.

 

While it is easy to say that a cheater has no excuse for cheating, it is just as easy to say that many of the so called victims of cheating could have helped prevent the cheater from being put into a position to feel vulnerable to cheating. The problem is that they rarely get told that there needs to be a change prior to the affair, or it could be that they don't take the pleas/yells for help very seriously. Many cheaters do so without really attempting to fix the areas that they see as a problem.

 

Each affair has three people at least who have made choices. The MM/MW who chose each little step that led to the affair. The OW/OM who allowed him or herself to "fall in love" with a man or woman who was already committed to someone else, and the one who rarely gets any "blame" is the BS who could have prevented some of the affairs that occurred. A good marriage is the best defense against an affair.

 

While we (my wife and I) have a big problem in the sex area of our marriage, the fact that we (truthfully, mainly I) keep working at the communication and other areas outside of sex, I think is why we have been able to survive this. Of course, the fact that I found this Board has something to do with it as well.

 

Cheating is not as simple as it sounds. It is not an evil man or woman who suddenly plans to have an affair while he or she is in a perfect marriage. Yes, it is a person who has decided whether consciously or unconsciously to break a commitment. But most cheaters were put into a position of frustration by a marriage that is far from perfect. This may be mostly the cheater's fault, but it is never all of the cheater's fault.

 

 

(There are exceptions to all of my comments, I am sure. None of these comments were intended to hurt those people who have been betrayed in a marriage from an affair. Nor does it give an excuse for an affair. As one who by some standards has every excuse to have an affair, I know that commitment can override vulnerabilities).

 

Enough said.

 

Great great post James!

[herenow]

Originally posted by Herenow>

How can someone say they love their spouse and cheat on them?, maybe the person cheating doesn't realize the depth of that love until they are about to lose it, and then they know how devastating their actions have been to everyone involved.

 

 

Hi Herenow,

 

I have read a lot of your posts and think very highly of you because your line of thought shows how intelligent and caring you are. You seem to be one of the few who can forgive without harboring deep resentment and you and your husband both benefit from that. I like your topic because I believe it is reflective of my MM.

 

I don't want to bore you with all the details of my story, but my MM is definitely one of those who loves his W yet still cheats. I didn't want to believe it at first, but I think I see it now. He really is in a dreamworld. Most of the time with me, it is all about me. But, once in a while I can see that he feels guilty and needs to rush right back. Boy, that cuts like a knife, but I recognize it. The first time I recognized it I knew that he really loved her and that I couldn't wait around for him. He just needed me to be that fix for the moment and when it wears off he is outta there quick as a whistle.

 

Why did he cheat? There was a time he felt he no longer loved her and told her during counseling. He was trying to deal with it before an affair ever happened. For whatever reason, they felt they were on the road to healing and ended the M counseling. And I think he felt she had her claws in him. His words, not mine. A few years later he ended up with me. I know he fell in love with me, too, but if she ever gave him an ultimatum I feel he would chose her. He is as (Cobra and Reboot have warned me) using my love as a drug to get him through whatever pains him at home. As much as it hurts at least I can say I have learned a lot. Also, I wonder if he fell for me because I was such a softy? Maybe he figured I was safe and would never be mean enough to tell his W? Less of a risk to cause her pain by being with someone who has known much? I'm still looking for my own answers.

 

And Cobra, your cause and effect model was a little too basic for me, no effense. I wonder why such an intelligent guy like you is not married? How old are you? I hope you're not too picky to ever get married. It's just that your standards are already high and I wonder where you're going to find Miss Right? I am really saying this with a thoughtful and caring voice, btw.

 

MichaelK, I think you may be onto something with wondering if you wanted to be discovered. Sometimes I think, "If only H could hear this voicemail and see how it made my day". It's like part of me just wants H to know what kind of man I really need so that he could either be that for me or at least validate my reasons for divorcing. Of course I don't dare show him these things or say them to him because it would be hurtful. And I don't see us working things out. My counselor nailed it, btw, Reboot with what you said: We were just not made for each other.

 

And I was the cheater because part of me knew it was over and the other part was just a vengeful brat (for the first time in my life). I had already asked for a D and he just wouldn't leave or go to counseling or anything. So, I thought we could be roommates and I could do my own thing; sort of fulfill my needs one of which was love. I really could have done without the P in this A, but even that turned out to be awesome until I realized he still loved her.

 

Thank you for your kind words White Flower. I know that every situation is different and that this board is a potpourri of information that comes from many diverse sources. The one thing I believe to be true is that we make our choices because it's what fits our situation the best. We may not understand each other or agree with each other, but in the end we can only know what's really happening in our life. You seem to have a grasp on your situation and I wish you luck and happiness.

 

Have a great day everyone and a happy holiday season if I'm not back before then!

[JamesM]

Hmmm..how does she feel about her body? Does she feel desirable? Is she self-conscious? That can also hamper a persons libido.

 

Currently, she feels fat. And she has always had an issue with weight...even when she is at her best. Years ago when we first met, she was dealing with bulimia...another story.

 

But the point is, this lack of desire cropped up in the last eight years or less. Her body issues have been there since we first met.

 

Great great post James

 

Ms Pixie, thanks.

[michaelk]

Most cheaters do not plan on cheating. It is something that comes because of a work relationship or a deepening friendship that comes at a time when the cheater is vulnerable.

 

<snip>

 

(There are exceptions to all of my comments, I am sure. None of these comments were intended to hurt those people who have been betrayed in a marriage from an affair. Nor does it give an excuse for an affair. As one who by some standards has every excuse to have an affair, I know that commitment can override vulnerabilities).

 

Enough said.

 

Thanks for the well thought out perspective on this. It's nice to see the subject of cheating dealt with in such a balanced way.

 

 

Trust me, I've had enough guilt to last me a lifetime but I certainly do not believe that one mistake makes me a horrible person. In fact, I know it doesn't.

 

Although James addressed this quite well, I'll just chime in here and say that I totally agree with you Ms. Pixie. If you've been a good and faithful spouse for 12 years, and one day you cheat, it's nonsense to think that you somehow changed overnight from a "good person" to an "evil person". By this logic, you'd also have to say that after a lifetime of evil, one altruistic deed would make someone "good"!

 

The fact is that we're all a little of both, that's our nature, and I don't think there's a single one of us who doesn't struggle with that during our lifetime. I think the key - at least for me - is learning to 1) accept that I can do and have done bad things, 2) learn why I did them and how not to do them in the future, and 3) learn to accept and even embrace others despite the bad things they do.

[White Flower]

 

 

Why do I see similarities between your H and your MM in these words?? Seems like they both still love their W's... but they sure aren't treating them very well.

Wow, thanks for pointing that out, OpenBook. It's all true. MM is treating his wife well in person, but not behind her back. H is treating me like **** in person AND behind my back.

 

I suppose in MM's case his love for his wife and his love for me is what so many describe here at LS as compartmentalized. He loves her when he's with her, yet he loves me when he is with me. It really boggles my mind how people can do this. I don't say that judgementally because I know our brains all function differently. And I think that is the answer to Herenow's original question. They don't neccessarily think they'll get caught because in their mind everything is separate and have nothing to do with the other. For my MM, this A really is a fantasy. At first when he'd mention our dreamworld I thought it was just something to say; I didn't really believe he thought it was literally a dreamworld because for me it was all reality. I wanted to set the D in faster motion (I was already going to D before I met MM), but realized he was never going to D. In his fantasy world, W never discovered and never got hurt. That is when I knew I could not continue the A.

 

As for H, he still says every 3 months or so that he loves me even after all we've said and done. Maybe he is living in a dreamworld too. One where he is the boss and I'm the doormat. I think Pixie said it best about communicating all our needs and never having them met. The neglect and general disregard for my very life at times gets real old and I have put in double the time she has. I don't blame her for turning to someone during that time and I am glad she learned from it too.

 

Also, I understand where Scrivdog defends his place at home with his children. Pedophelia is everywhere and he just wants to protect his kids. Yeah, he could suggest an open marriage as I have with my H. H said he would consider it but never got back to me. Just like everything else. I couldn't wait around forever for an answer so I did what I did. (I repeatedly brought it up over the course of a year and a half before the A).

[White Flower]

To the point of this thread. Yes, it is simplistic, as it is supposed to be. Yet it captures the essence of the dilemma does it not? The complexity comes from you who reads it.

Perhaps because I am a complex person. I'm proud of that.

 

Understand that Herenow, wants to look at those who do not feel that an affair puts thier marriage at risk. I do not think that you fit that situation. I do not believe your M holds enough value to you for any of this to apply.

Hmm. With all due respect, I am offering experience from someone who successfully accomplished an A without getting caught and am offering the reasons why from my perspective as well as MM's. Here is Herenow's question:

 

"I bring this up because I think that there are many MM or MW who have affairs and they really don't think they are risking anything. It's a game that they play until they get caught and then reality hits them in the face. So when we ask: How can someone say they love their spouse and cheat on them?, maybe the person cheating doesn't realize the depth of that love until they are about to lose it, and then they know how devastating their actions have been to everyone involved. "

 

In my case, I didn't care if I got caught because to me the M was dead anyway, but not getting caught was a plus.

 

LOL... my standards? I don't have standards, as interesting as that may sound. Instead I have boundaries. Perhaps a result of bieng a prolific dater. I am not married for one simple reason. I dont have the need at the moment. I dont want anyone that close. Those of us who have lost greatly through events beyond control.... ah.... I suppose it doesnt matter what I say here.... live, laugh, love, whatever, whomever, whenever

Ah, Cobra. You are not allowing anyone close to your heart because you don't believe anyone is big enough or understanding enough to accept you as you are with everything that has ever happened to you. Someone has obviously screwed with your trust and you need to know that there is a big heart out there who can handle that with you. You can think I'm as messed up all you want and that nothing of value can come from my soul, but just because I've gone through this one messy thing does not mean I am ruined forever. And you are not ruined forever either.

 

 

 

Hmmm... I will not feel bad in taking steps to protect my assets. However, a good wife is more precious than any amount of $$$.

 

For too many marriage is simply an economic contract, or a child rearing pact. But you already know this.

Unfortunately, yes, if one or both of the marriage partners slacks off in providing the needs of the other this becomes a last resort, but it never started out that way with anyone. You could just as have easily said, "For too many marriage has simply become an economic contract, or a child rearing pact." Marriage definitely needs work.

[White Flower]

While it is easy to say that a cheater has no excuse for cheating, it is just as easy to say that many of the so called victims of cheating could have helped prevent the cheater from being put into a position to feel vulnerable to cheating.

Wow, James. Just wow. I love this coming from someone who hasn't cheated. I could have stated this, but it wouldn't be taken as a valid point from someone like me who has.

 

Each affair has three people at least who have made choices. The MM/MW who chose each little step that led to the affair. The OW/OM who allowed him or herself to "fall in love" with a man or woman who was already committed to someone else, and the one who rarely gets any "blame" is the BS who could have prevented some of the affairs that occurred. A good marriage is the best defense against an affair.

This is so true. When my H was involved in an EA, I looked to myself to see what I could do to improve the M. He bacame a very lucky man is all I can say. It is just too bad that I felt he didn't appreciate it. A couple of years later, well, you know.

 

 

 

Cheating is not as simple as it sounds. It is not an evil man or woman who suddenly plans to have an affair while he or she is in a perfect marriage. Yes, it is a person who has decided whether consciously or unconsciously to break a commitment. But most cheaters were put into a position of frustration by a marriage that is far from perfect. This may be mostly the cheater's fault, but it is never all of the cheater's fault.

Enough said.

Excellently stated. This could start a whole new thread about frustration. I wonder if the BS truly understands what it is like to be frustrated to the extreme of the WS? It is really impossible to compare since we cannot jump into someone else's body and feel it. We are all going to say, "Oh, yes we know what it's like, but, I think they don't know until D-day." Perhaps that is why MichaelK suggested they might have secretly wanted to be discovered? The frustration and pain on D-day might equal or even surpass that of the pain and frustration a WS feels leading up to an A.

[Trialbyfire]

There is alot of childhood trauma I've had to work through to see exactly what made me vulnerable to have an affair- that I won't go into and bore anyone with- because you're only going to think I'm using that for justification and I'm not. I see now clearly why I react to things the way I do and how for a long time I needed validation from men because I never had any from my father. Quite simply, those were my issues and not my exh's- but I think we both discounted the effect that my childhood had on me.

This dovetails quite nicely with the psychology of someone who cheats. There's something broken inside of them that requires external validation.

 

As for both of you discounting the effect of your childhood, he has no responsibility for this. It's not a "we" situation. This is a "you" situation. There's no way in the world that something you haven't dealt with, can be known or addressed by someone who doesn't live in your brain.

[Scrivdog]

This dovetails quite nicely with the psychology of someone who cheats. There's something broken inside of them that requires external validation.

 

Not always. Sometimes they just want a loving relationship.

[Trialbyfire]

Not always. Sometimes they just want a loving relationship.

Through external validation? Don't make me pull out more examples of external validations...