Conversation with a cheater

[White Flower]

i dont know first hand but, put it this way, get a good new movie, watch it once its great, even a few times after that its good and u find new things in, but after a while, it starts to get old, even though it gets boring, u still love it a lot, see what im saying

Are ya saying this thread is boring you, lol?

[Cobra_X30]

I'd like to defend Scrivdog here because he really is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't stay for the kids. You hear the BS always blaming WS for messing up the kids lives yet Scriv is staying for the benefit of the kids and everyone is telling him to D! But even as I defend, his delivery can be harsh...even to those in the same boat.

 

Have you considered the possibility that Scriv failed to fully explore his options before choosing his current course of action?

 

Often we humans simply take the easy way out, only hoping for the best.

 

There was definitely a side of me that didn't care about the marriage because it was so bad. And though it was bad there were a few "I love yous" even still. Why? Even though I'd asked for a D, and then an open M, and MC there were just times I guess we both needed to hear it.

 

In conclusion, I think Herenow proposes a very rational answer to her question especially to those cheaters who still love their spouses on a deeper level than I did.

 

There is alot more to marriage than just love. You know this.

 

You should really sit down and consider exactly what you have left in this relationship... I would not consider this a marriage anymore.

[OpenBook]

Are ya saying this thread is boring you, lol?

 

I think deter was comparing the movie example to how a MM views his marriage... like an old beloved movie he's seen a thousand times...

 

i dont know first hand but, put it this way, get a good new movie, watch it once its great, even a few times after that its good and u find new things in, but after a while, it starts to get old, even though it gets boring, u still love it a lot, see what im saying

[Virgo1982]

As Mz. Pixie pointed out correctly, and I have gathered from my own research - unmnet needs are the main cause of infidelity. Not meeting the needs of a husband is particularly stupid given that most men have very simple needs when it comes to a marriage - and having those simple needs unmet cause the most distress in a marriage.

 

If I'm following you, you're saying that if the W loves the H and he needs more sex (or in some cases, just sex-) she should meet his needs because they are important to him. However, she does not feel it's important enough until he finds someone else to have sex with. Then she is devastated and distraught and blame-happy. You'd like her to look in the mirror.

 

I'm still not quite sure if that's a defense-mechanism or if the guys in the sexless-marriage-club are not victims. Tough call. Hmm...

 

I'd say the only guys I respect in those situations are the ones who made an effort to work this situation out with their W first, for his cries to fall on deaf ears. IOW, would your need for more sex be a surprise to BS or would guilt well up inside them after D-Day?

 

Part of me also wonders if a small percentage of these partners who withdraw sexually and emotionally do so in hopes to have an excuse for getting a divorce and some other things they'd like to do.

 

I would say that's a very small percentage though.

[Virgo1982]

The fact are that he never thought I'd leave and he didn't think I could leave- so he had no motivation to change- despite the fact that he promised me continually he'd start meeting my needs and never did. Or he would try until he got sex the next time and then that would be over.

 

That's the point Cobra made early on. People get quite comfortable to do or not do whatever they want or don't want when they strongly believe their S will not leave them.

[White Flower]

Have you considered the possibility that Scriv failed to fully explore his options before choosing his current course of action?

 

Often we humans simply take the easy way out, only hoping for the best.

 

 

 

There is alot more to marriage than just love. You know this.

 

You should really sit down and consider exactly what you have left in this relationship... I would not consider this a marriage anymore.

Yes, I have considered that. I take that if he has truly tried to communicate all of his needs to his wife and she refused to work with him on any level, then to him his only recourse was to stay but cheat. I don't like it for either partner in the marriage, but I understand staying for the kids especially for the reasons he usually lists.

 

You're right, oftentimes we want life to be easy. By the way, cheating is not easy.

 

There is definitely a whole lot more to marriage besides love. There is respect, commitment, value, patience, trying, communication, and well the list goes on and on. When these things become minimized and taken for granted especially for years and years there is going to be consequences. I don't say this as if it were a mere punishment. My heart was empty and someone really wanted to fill it up for me. It was the hardest thing to resist, believe me. I have actually resisted it successfully before. But I had needs and I was tired of waiting for my H to fill them for me; I knew he didn't want the job so I lost faith in him. That old expression, "He pushed me into the arms of another man" sounds so cliché, but that is really what happened. I could have gone without sex, but going without love is unacceptable; and cruel when your husband refuses to make you feel loved.

 

I have sat down and tried to discuss it with him and he just refuses. He has zero communication skills and it's just like banging your head against the wall when you want to come to any kind of decision or compromise. You're right, this is not my idea of a good marriage, but it is a marriage of sorts. My youngest feels more secure that we're together (I have discussed this with her and gave her a few scenarios) and I'm trying to make the peace.

 

I don't know if Scrivdog has gone to the extreme that I have to save his marriage, but if he has I understand his predicament.

[NoIDidn't]

I hate the oversimplification that people cheat because they know or feel that their spouses won't leave them.

 

In fact, most of the time, that's their hope. That if caught, the spouse will leave them. Especially if the betrayed is a woman. Men seem to hate being seen as the bad guy that asked for a divorce.

 

I do agree that they mostly don't think that they will get caught. But that's the same with driving above the speed limit. Does that mean that the person speeding always has no regard for the law? I don't think so. I speed but I don't shoplift.

 

Why is not thinking that they will get caught the worst thing that someone could do? I don't understand those who constantly harp about that as if that's the worst thing in the world. It isn't. And quite frankly, neither is infidelity. Not thinking that they would get caught is generally how people feel when they have secrets. Should an A be any different?

 

Haven't we all been in situations where it "seemed like a good idea at the time"? Let's not be hypocritical and claim that we never have. People rarely ever assign the true value to things in their lives, no matter what they have vowed. That's why so much is taken for granted until the risk of losing them is realized.

 

Most people that cheat really aren't the devil. They are really no different than most of us, whether they get caught or not.

[Scrivdog]

I think what we've been saying is that the BS sometimes makes no effort to listen to the initial complaints and/or makes no effort to improve the marriage because they feel they have "locked in" the spouse.

 

This was in an effort to explain why sometimes it's very hard to get any motivation from a spouse to change.

[White Flower]

I hate the oversimplification that people cheat because they know or feel that their spouses won't leave them.

 

In fact, most of the time, that's their hope. That if caught, the spouse will leave them. Especially if the betrayed is a woman. Men seem to hate being seen as the bad guy that asked for a divorce.

 

I do agree that they mostly don't think that they will get caught. But that's the same with driving above the speed limit. Does that mean that the person speeding always has no regard for the law? I don't think so. I speed but I don't shoplift.

 

Why is not thinking that they will get caught the worst thing that someone could do? I don't understand those who constantly harp about that as if that's the worst thing in the world. It isn't. And quite frankly, neither is infidelity. Not thinking that they would get caught is generally how people feel when they have secrets. Should an A be any different?

 

Haven't we all been in situations where it "seemed like a good idea at the time"? Let's not be hypocritical and claim that we never have. People rarely ever assign the true value to things in their lives, no matter what they have vowed. That's why so much is taken for granted until the risk of losing them is realized.

 

Most people that cheat really aren't the devil. They are really no different than most of us, whether they get caught or not.

Very good post, NID. I like your comparisons. The part I bolded is interesting. As for me and as you probably already read I tried everything including asking for a D before my A. I wonder if it's true that most men want to get caught, then D and most women want to D, then give up and cheat? I'd like to know the stats on that. And I wonder if the reason for that is the good ole stereotypes that play into gender, ie., it's OK for a man to cheat...boys will be boys. If a W cheats, well you can fill in the blanks. Perhaps this is why she usually (I'm guessing it's usual) asks for a D up front?

[Cobra_X30]

I have sat down and tried to discuss it with him and he just refuses. He has zero communication skills and it's just like banging your head against the wall when you want to come to any kind of decision or compromise. You're right, this is not my idea of a good marriage, but it is a marriage of sorts. My youngest feels more secure that we're together (I have discussed this with her and gave her a few scenarios) and I'm trying to make the peace.

 

I've been in bad relationships before. I have learned that even the worst GF was rarely as poor at communicating as I believed her to be. I just have to learn her language, then the communication goes well.

 

Luckily, I'm the kind of person that can do that. Many cannot.

 

I do agree that they mostly don't think that they will get caught. But that's the same with driving above the speed limit. Does that mean that the person speeding always has no regard for the law? I don't think so. I speed but I don't shoplift.

 

Haven't we all been in situations where it "seemed like a good idea at the time"? Let's not be hypocritical and claim that we never have. People rarely ever assign the true value to things in their lives, no matter what they have vowed. That's why so much is taken for granted until the risk of losing them is realized.

 

Most people that cheat really aren't the devil. They are really no different than most of us, whether they get caught or not.

 

NID, It's the betrayal. The deep, deep, level of betrayal. I can have no respect or love for those who betray the trust of others. How do you feel about traitors? Most countries hang them...

 

You see, it's just like your speedlimit analogy. When you dont think it's a big deal... and the consequences are very low.... your going to break the law. Speeding can kill people... but it doesnt seem like a big deal when your doing it... right?

[Shades of Grey]

I hate the oversimplification that people cheat because they know or feel that their spouses won't leave them.

 

In fact, most of the time, that's their hope. That if caught, the spouse will leave them. Especially if the betrayed is a woman. Men seem to hate being seen as the bad guy that asked for a divorce.

 

I certainly agree with this statement based on my experience. My MM even admitted that this was the case.

 

He didn't have the guts to actually come out and say that he wanted a divorce and follow through with it but he did end up eventually telling W about our A, that he was in love with me and even about his past infidelity.

 

He will admit that it was a last attempt at making the break without actually saying the words and that he hoped she would subsequently take the decision out of his hands and leave him.

 

Prior to that based on the amount of time he spent with me and the way he behaved towards her he certainly didn't act like a man who was afraid of being caught. It was almost like he wanted to be....

[NoIDidn't]

NID, It's the betrayal. The deep, deep, level of betrayal. I can have no respect or love for those who betray the trust of others. How do you feel about traitors? Most countries hang them...

 

You see, it's just like your speedlimit analogy. When you dont think it's a big deal... and the consequences are very low.... your going to break the law. Speeding can kill people... but it doesnt seem like a big deal when your doing it... right?

 

Cobra,

 

I am really not sure of what to respond to you as your posts are frequently contradictory from one point to the next. IMO.

 

I don't think this thread had anything to do with the betrayal aspect, just the fact that the guy really didn't do any deep thinking about the consequences of his actions. And the analogy I used fit the circumstances IMO. The whole "going the flow of traffic", ie, speeding, is the same thing as stating "everyone else is doing it" while not really thinking about the possilbe consequences of our actions. Especially if nothing bad happens most of the time that we do it.

 

I simply used an analogy that I thought fit the parts I wanted to address. I wasn't stating whether anything was a big deal or not. This isn't a moral contest. We are discussing the whys of the reasoning of those in an A.

[Cobra_X30]

Cobra,

 

I am really not sure of what to respond to you as your posts are frequently contradictory from one point to the next. IMO.

 

I simply used an analogy that I thought fit the parts I wanted to address. I wasn't stating whether anything was a big deal or not. This isn't a moral contest. We are discussing the whys of the reasoning of those in an A.

 

I'm only contradictory when taken out of context.

 

Why is not thinking that they will get caught the worst thing that someone could do? I don't understand those who constantly harp about that as if that's the worst thing in the world. It isn't. And quite frankly' date=' neither is infidelity. Not thinking that they would get caught is generally how people feel when they have secrets. Should an A be any different?[/quote']

 

This is what I was primarily responding to. Thats why I left in your final sentence where you summed this thought up nicely, even though I generally disagree. You do, without doubt, question and downplay the effect of infidelity in this statement. I just disagree.

 

I felt that your analogy was smashingly good! Better than many others Ive seen. I aplogize if I hijacked it.

 

I don't think this thread had anything to do with the betrayal aspect' date=' just the fact that the guy really didn't do any deep thinking about the consequences of his actions. And the analogy I used fit the circumstances IMO. The whole "going the flow of traffic", ie, speeding, is the same thing as stating "everyone else is doing it" while not really thinking about the [i']possilbe[/i] consequences of our actions. Especially if nothing bad happens most of the time that we do it.

 

As I stated... very early in the thread, This simply boils down to a lack of value placed on the current relationship!

 

The only time Infidelity does not entail betrayal, is when its done openly and with all parties consent. Thus this thread is in essence about betrayal... and why.

[NoIDidn't]

I'm only contradictory when taken out of context.

 

 

 

This is what I was primarily responding to. Thats why I left in your final sentence where you summed this thought up nicely, even though I generally disagree. You do, without doubt, question and downplay the effect of infidelity in this statement. I just disagree.

 

I felt that your analogy was smashingly good! Better than many others Ive seen. I aplogize if I hijacked it.

 

 

 

As I stated... very early in the thread, This simply boils down to a lack of value placed on the current relationship!

 

The only time Infidelity does not entail betrayal, is when its done openly and with all parties consent. Thus this thread is in essence about betrayal... and why.

 

I don't feel the thread was so much about the betrayal as the guys lack of forethought into it and after it. HN seemed to be asking why he never thought about the final outcome when all was said and done. Betrayal is certainly in there, but it doesn't seem she is asking about that as what's done is done now. But that's me.

 

I am not really trying to talk about if something is a big deal or not, just about how common taking thing for granted is. And it is common whether or not the thing taken for granted is a big deal. Be it a R or the life of children strapped into the backseat or the garbage collection (something most of us truly do take for granted if we get it, LOL).

 

I understand what you are saying now, not that I was taking anything out of context as far as I could tell. I certainly wasn't attempting to downplay the effects of it, just pointing out that we all do the same things in other circumstances. Whether it be having an A, or lying about how much we charged on our credit cards - the consequences can be devastating for the family invovled. I can't decide which I would choose if I had to choose between betrayal or bankruptcy. Both are a huge deal emotionally on the people involved. Both entail a huge amount of loss. But I am not at all trying to downplay infidelity. Other things can affect us just as deeply.

 

Thanks for the compliment on my analogy. Thats about the only thing I really am good at. LOL.

[silktricks]

In fact, most of the time, that's their hope. That if caught, the spouse will leave them. Especially if the betrayed is a woman. Men seem to hate being seen as the bad guy that asked for a divorce.

 

Though I agree that most men seem to hate being seen as the bad guy, I think women hate that just as much.

 

I also disagree with the statement that most of the time they hope that if caught the spouse will leave them. Although I knew of that in one case (in fact when the wife said "I forgive you", he said "but I don't want you to forgive me. I want a divorce!" - at least that's what she told me he said...) but most of the people I've know who have cheated most assuredly did NOT want a divorce.

[NoIDidn't]

Though I agree that most men seem to hate being seen as the bad guy, I think women hate that just as much.

 

I also disagree with the statement that most of the time they hope that if caught the spouse will leave them. Although I knew of that in one case (in fact when the wife said "I forgive you", he said "but I don't want you to forgive me. I want a divorce!" - at least that's what she told me he said...) but most of the people I've know who have cheated most assuredly did NOT want a divorce.

 

Truthfully, most of the guys that I know definitely did NOT want a divorce. But, some guys who actually do want one usually don't ask outright for it for fear of being seen as the bad guy.

 

For a woman, enough is enough. We will leave if we've had enough.

 

I guess, I was speaking more of the men that actually DO have exit (or what they thought at the time were) affairs.

[OpenBook]

I hate the oversimplification that people cheat because they know or feel that their spouses won't leave them.

 

In fact, most of the time, that's their hope. That if caught, the spouse will leave them. Especially if the betrayed is a woman. Men seem to hate being seen as the bad guy that asked for a divorce.

 

Truthfully' date=' [b']most of the guys that I know definitely did NOT want a divorce[/b]. But, some guys who actually do want one usually don't ask outright for it for fear of being seen as the bad guy.

 

For a woman, enough is enough. We will leave if we've had enough.

 

I guess, I was speaking more of the men that actually DO have exit (or what they thought at the time were) affairs.

 

Cobra,

 

I am really not sure of what to respond to you as your posts are frequently contradictory from one point to the next. IMO.

 

OK then. Right.

[Cobra_X30]

I don't feel the thread was so much about the betrayal as the guys lack of forethought into it and after it. HN seemed to be asking why he never thought about the final outcome when all was said and done. Betrayal is certainly in there, but it doesn't seem she is asking about that as what's done is done now. But that's me.

 

I am not really trying to talk about if something is a big deal or not, just about how common taking thing for granted is. And it is common whether or not the thing taken for granted is a big deal. Be it a R or the life of children strapped into the backseat or the garbage collection (something most of us truly do take for granted if we get it, LOL).

 

I understand what you are saying now, not that I was taking anything out of context as far as I could tell. I certainly wasn't attempting to downplay the effects of it, just pointing out that we all do the same things in other circumstances. Whether it be having an A, or lying about how much we charged on our credit cards - the consequences can be devastating for the family invovled. I can't decide which I would choose if I had to choose between betrayal or bankruptcy. Both are a huge deal emotionally on the people involved. Both entail a huge amount of loss. But I am not at all trying to downplay infidelity. Other things can affect us just as deeply.

 

Thanks for the compliment on my analogy. Thats about the only thing I really am good at. LOL.

 

Your good at much more than just analogies! I think your one of the people here that I would be good friends with in real life.

 

I agree that HN did not really look at the betrayal aspect... note that most poeple don't until it's too late. I guess that is the point of the whole thread really. So many people just dont place the value on thier marriage that they should. Truth is we never take for granted those things which are truely valuable to us... we appreciate them and take good care of them. Why is family so often not included in that?

 

For me... I'd take bankruptcy any day. Money comes and goes... I try to always value poeple over possesions. However, I realize that's easy to say when you have money!

 

OK then. Right.

 

Open,

 

Yes this is exactly what I meant about context!

[NoIDidn't]

Your good at much more than just analogies! I think your one of the people here that I would be good friends with in real life.

....

 

For me... I'd take bankruptcy any day. Money comes and goes... I try to always value poeple over possesions. However, I realize that's easy to say when you have money!

 

 

Thanks, Cobra.

 

I still can't decide though between betrayal and bankruptcy. I agree with you that money certainly comes and goes. And I definitely value my family, all of the crazies that I am related to, far more than my possessions (except my car, LOL - gotta be able to get in the car and leave when they start getting crazy).

 

I certainly agree that people don't think about the consequences of betrayal, though. That's one of my biggest problems. I like to think of things into the future, what will happen if I do A or B. My own H told me he really didn't think he would get caught because it was strictly during working hours and only over his work issued-phone and email.

 

We are able to talk about what happened and why, freely now. He's given me much insight that I have chosen not to really share here. It could be looked at as his feelings nearly two years later, but its not uncommon.

 

What is common is listening to the guys that cheated in any way, be it EA or PA, say that they just weren't thinking about the consequences at all. And for it not to be a cop-out. And it has nothing to do with whether they love the spouse or the OP. Its only what was on their minds and in their hearts - in the moment.

[herenow]

Sometimes a person who is doing something wrong, like having an affair, is able to compartmentalize. They are able to separate themselves and basically live in two different worlds. When they are away from one part of their life, say their marriage, and open the door to the other, it's like the first doesn't exist. Since I'm not able to compartmentalize, I can't really relate, but I have been told by our MC that it's very common.

 

This may be how MM or MW who still love their spouses are able to have sex with another person without thinking about what they are risking. Just a thought.

[Virgo1982]

Sometimes a person who is doing something wrong, like having an affair, is able to compartmentalize. They are able to separate themselves and basically live in two different worlds. When they are away from one part of their life, say their marriage, and open the door to the other, it's like the first doesn't exist. Since I'm not able to compartmentalize, I can't really relate, but I have been told by our MC that it's very common.

 

This may be how MM or MW who still love their spouses are able to have sex with another person without thinking about what they are risking. Just a thought.

 

I don't buy it. It was clear to me that my xMM was able to compartmentalize, but simply knew his W would not leave him. I wouldn't even say he knew, because no one knows what the future holds, but he was pretty confident she would not leave. She chose to rationalize his behavior by saying "all men cheat." If she said that, I think she gave him a reason to believe she wasn't going anywhere.

[herenow]

I don't buy it. It was clear to me that my xMM was able to compartmentalize, but simply knew his W would not leave him. I wouldn't even say he knew, because no one knows what the future holds, but he was pretty confident she would not leave. She chose to rationalize his behavior by saying "all men cheat." If she said that, I think she gave him a reason to believe she wasn't going anywhere.

 

I guess any woman that would say to her husband that "all men cheat" is just giving him a green light. Why would he think anything else?

 

I may be wrong, but I don't think there are many BW that would react to their H's affair this way. Most of the ones that I have met on this board take their H's infidelity very seriously and are not interested in rationalizing that type of behavior.

 

Actually, I'm not sure I buy the idea myself because I'm not one to compartmentalize. But, If it were true, it could be an answer to how people can cheat and still say they love their spouse. Not that I necessarily believe that a MM can love his wife and have sex with an OW. Remember, my H is the one that said he didn't really love anyone while he was having his affair. His honesty about that and other things is why I gave him a second chance.

 

That is why I started this thread. To explore the statement that we hear so often about married people who love their spouse but still have sex with other people. I find that concept interesting because I don't understand it.

[herenow]

Gotta go, hope you all have a great night!

[silktricks]

I had always "known" and always said that I would divorce if there was infidelity. When struck with reality, things changed for me. My h was very afraid that I wouldn't forgive him. The very fact that I was willing to work at the possibility was part of what made him realize the depth of my love for him. If he hadn't doubted that love he probably would never have done what he did.

 

Back to the issue of compartmentalization though, when I asked (repeatedly) how he could basically throw our marriage into the wind, he said he didn't feel like he was hurting us because everything he said to the ow was all lies. He knew he was never actually interested in her so it didn't matter what he said. Needless to say both I and the counselor disabused him of that idea. In many ways he was acting out some very deep seated issues he had towards women - mother, sisters, cousins, wives, daughters - the whole enchilada.

 

What he did changed him in a fundamental way. He will never again be able to be as carefree about his attitudes or his actions. Although in some ways that is undeniably a good thing, in many other ways it is sad.

[NoIDidn't]

I had always "known" and always said that I would divorce if there was infidelity. When struck with reality, things changed for me. My h was very afraid that I wouldn't forgive him. The very fact that I was willing to work at the possibility was part of what made him realize the depth of my love for him. If he hadn't doubted that love he probably would never have done what he did.

 

Are we married to the same person? This is pretty much what happened in my sitch as well. My H was absolutely sure that I could never forgive him given the things he had witnessed from me.

 

I do believe in the compartmentalization part though. Its something that men do rather effectively. When at work, my H is at work. Its hard for him to instantly switch gears into an emotional bent just because I call hormonal and pregnant.

 

The MC had to clarify this for us too. My H is a master compartmentalizer. I am not. Everything just runs together for me. He is structured. I fly by the seat of my pants. He can focus on getting the job done and then doing it. I have tons of unfinished projects around the house.

 

In fact, I remember asking him if he thought of me at all when he was speaking with his co-worker. He said "No, not at all. Just thinking about what I wanted/expected from the encounter." I am sure others won't see that this was just a conversation and nothing mean about his answer since they don't know him, but it was insightful for me. It wasn't about me. It was about him. And she was neatly away in a box when he was at home. If he hadn't started telling me strange things, I wouldn't have suspected him of sharing his innermost feelings with someone else.

 

So, yeah, I can see the compartmentalizing thing. Its just not something I do personally, though.