Conversation with a cheater

[cj1988]

MichaelK, did you want to get caught and if so, why?

[michaelk]

MichaelK, did you want to get caught and if so, why?

 

As I said in my post, I wonder whether I did. I truly do not know.

 

One of the things that I've been learning since starting therapy and being very introspective is that I'm not always sure why I do some things. And when I discover what's really motivating certain behaviors, it can be like lightning striking. It's an amazing and eye opening process.

 

I hope to discover the answer to your question somewhere along the way.

[reboot]

Actually, I wonder sometimes if I didn't just want to get caught. *sigh* Another good therapy topic.

That is interesting for you to say that. I really felt like my wife was relieved when it all came out. Another thread topic perhaps...

[Cobra_X30]

That is interesting for you to say that. I really felt like my wife was relieved when it all came out. Another thread topic perhaps...

 

No, that is directly in line with the topic of this post!

 

Understand that many times... your inattention is a percieved permissivness to an affair. Thus when the cheater blames you, it is a relief to find that you do care... and that the mentally exhausting effort which previously went into the affair can end. The blame shifting and sudden openness reduces the feeling of guilt.

 

She will believe that you had all of the non-verbal signals needed that an affair was about to start. Yet you failed to step up and put your foot down to prevent it... thus you did'nt care.

 

Thus the feeling of mitigated risk to the marriage... that was due to a low value to the marriage itself. Attributed to the idea that you did not care.

[reboot]

No, that is directly in line with the topic of this post!

 

Understand that many times... your inattention is a percieved permissivness to an affair. Thus when the cheater blames you, it is a relief to find that you do care... and that the mentally exhausting effort which previously went into the affair can end. The blame shifting and sudden openness reduces the feeling of guilt.

 

She will believe that you had all of the non-verbal signals needed that an affair was about to start. Yet you failed to step up and put your foot down to prevent it... thus you did'nt care.

 

Thus the feeling of mitigated risk to the marriage... that was due to a low value to the marriage itself. Attributed to the idea that you did not care.

Your perception surprises me sometimes. That may well be a very accurate description of what happened.

[Cobra_X30]

Your perception surprises me sometimes. That may well be a very accurate description of what happened.

 

It is true on one level. These things are more complex than either of us may imagine.

 

You dont know me well enough, otherwise my perception would me less of a suprise and more of an expectation.

[Trialbyfire]

Hear Hear! I get so tired of people using this excuse to be bitter!!!

If a cheater's issues aren't addressed and corrected, the chances of them cheating is far greater.

 

There are many reasons why cheaters do lie and cheat. Two main ones are; selfishness and poor coping mechanisms.

 

Are you certain you've addressed these issues?

[Mz. Pixie]

If a cheater's issues aren't addressed and corrected, the chances of them cheating is far greater.

 

There are many reasons why cheaters do lie and cheat. Two main ones are; selfishness and poor coping mechanisms.

 

Are you certain you've addressed these issues?

 

Sure I have. My IC actually has told me that I would have never stayed married to my ex because of how neglectful he was. Next time I'll just divorce if my spouse is treating me like that. Much easier and much less guilt.

 

Another reason spouses cheat? Unmet needs. Not that it's a good excuse or justification for an affair but according to Willard Harley (of marriagebuilders) many people will cheat if their needs go unmet. I've done alot of reading of his website as well as books he has written. He makes alot of sense and has helped alot of people with his concept of the love bank.

[Trialbyfire]

Sure I have. My IC actually has told me that I would have never stayed married to my ex because of how neglectful he was. Next time I'll just divorce if my spouse is treating me like that. Much easier and much less guilt.

 

Another reason spouses cheat? Unmet needs. Not that it's a good excuse or justification for an affair but according to Willard Harley (of marriagebuilders) many people will cheat if their needs go unmet. I've done alot of reading of his website as well as books he has written. He makes alot of sense and has helped alot of people with his concept of the love bank.

I agree that one should never stay in a neglectful situation, as long as the issues are effectively communicated during the course of the marriage. Having said that, you walk from unmet needs, not lie and cheat.

 

There's no excuse for cheating, regardless of situation. Any attempt to justify cheating is just that, justification.

 

Are you certain you've addressed your issues?

[Cobra_X30]

I agree that one should never stay in a neglectful situation, as long as the issues are effectively communicated during the course of the marriage. Having said that, you walk from unmet needs, not lie and cheat.

 

There's no excuse for cheating, regardless of situation. Any attempt to justify cheating is just that, justification.

 

Are you certain you've addressed your issues?

 

Not to talk for her... but I've spoken to Pixie at length... and I would say she has more than addressed her problems.

[Impudent Oyster]

I'm sorry. If she actively ignored consequences she knew existed. That means she did not value the marriage enough to not risk losing it.

 

quote]

 

And if she didn't? Let's assume that for the time she was having an affair, that she didn't value the marriage...so? I'm sure she didn't, I'm sure most cheating spouses don't value the marriage while they're cheating, but you know what, once the proverbial sh*t hits the fan, and they realize what they've risked, a good many of them start to see the value. They see it like they've never seen it before.

[Trialbyfire]

Not to talk for her... but I've spoken to Pixie at length... and I would say she has more than addressed her problems.

I don't see it in her responses. If anything I see justifications. "He did this, so I did this."

[Impudent Oyster]

To answer the OP, in my case I had to stop loving my W before I was in a state of mind to have an A. If I had really cared about her at that time, it would have hurt me to hurt her in that way, and I'd like to think I wouldn't have done it.

 

When people start with these kinds of rationalizations you really have to wonder if they even know what love is.

 

I'm not trying to be flip here, but you don't really believe that, do you? You really believe you wouldn't hurt someone you loved?

[Impudent Oyster]

Thus the feeling of mitigated risk to the marriage... that was due to a low value to the marriage itself. Attributed to the idea that you did not care.

 

Cobra how long have you been married? I think people sometimes expect too much out of a marriage. It has highs and lows, especially a long marriage, I'm sure I haven't "valued" it as much as I should all the time, I'm sure I've been bored, felt unappreciated, whatever, but you know what, so what? It's not all about having my needs met all the time, I'm not the only one in my family and the world doesn't revolve around my needs or my husband's needs, sometimes the minutia of daily life just gets in the way, but don't worry, it doesn't stay in the way.

 

I don't know, I feel like a lot of people have unrealistic expectations of marriage and their spouses. I've been married 23 years, and i have to say I feel damn lucky that the only problem we've had is a bout with infidelity that, in the grand scheme of my life, is not the worst thing in the world and not worth ending my otherwise good marriage over. We've been very, very lucky, IMO. I guess I'm just a realist.

[Cobra_X30]

I'm sorry. If she actively ignored consequences she knew existed. That means she did not value the marriage enough to not risk losing it.

 

And if she didn't? Let's assume that for the time she was having an affair, that she didn't value the marriage...so? I'm sure she didn't, I'm sure most cheating spouses don't value the marriage while they're cheating, but you know what, once the proverbial sh*t hits the fan, and they realize what they've risked, a good many of them start to see the value. They see it like they've never seen it before.

 

Well, do they truely see the value... or do they begin to fight for it because they just dont want to lose it?

 

I'd say you are correct in saying that... at the time... she did not value the marriage. Just take note that this says more about her as a person than it does the actual state of the marriage.

 

Cobra how long have you been married?

 

I don't know, I feel like a lot of people have unrealistic expectations of marriage and their spouses. I've been married 23 years, and i have to say I feel damn lucky that the only problem we've had is a bout with infidelity that, in the grand scheme of my life, is not the worst thing in the world and not worth ending my otherwise good marriage over. We've been very, very lucky, IMO. I guess I'm just a realist.

 

I have not had the good fortune of experiencing marriage. However when I do, I assure you that my expectations will be very realistic.

 

Listen, you have a good perspective on marriage. I have a passing familiarity with your story... and rest assured your H did value your marriage. To the degree that he drew a line that he would not cross... and I strongly suspect that line coincides with what he felt you would forgive.

 

Yes, many poeple have unrealistic expectations... most common and deadly is the expectation that you and your SO will not change.

[michaelk]

When people start with these kinds of rationalizations you really have to wonder if they even know what love is.

 

I'm not trying to be flip here, but you don't really believe that, do you? You really believe you wouldn't hurt someone you loved?

 

 

I don't know what you're referring to as a rationalization. I rationalized nothing here - merely explained how I had to feel in order to get to that point.

 

As for whether I believe my second statement, I clearly said "I'd like to think I wouldn't have done it." Obviously, people hurt those they love all the time, and I'm not any different in that regard. I was simply expressing that I was not thinking of my W or her feelings when I had the affair, and that had I been I might have acted differently. Why is that so hard to understand?

[WanderingDove]

I am thinking of having a conversation with a cheater but at the moment, I'm not sure whether he is cheating or not. Just small signs like he's hiding something.

[child_of_isis]

Yup! One time I asked my X why a man would carry on (cheat) with someone else....his answer?

 

Because he can get by with it.

 

 

 

Here's one direct from my ex-H's mouth:

 

I never thought I would be caught.

[OpenBook]

More than likely, your H did not feel that he would get caught, or that if he did you would not leave him. Was he wrong? No, he wasnt. He is still your husband. Therefore his risk vs. reward analysis was correct.

 

Please don't turn this into another thread about what a fool I was to give him another chance and that he will cheat again blah, blah , blah. Why is it that anyone who stays in a marriage must be in denial and unwilling to see some "insight" that they don't want to see? I don't have the time or care enough to show you how flawed your thinking is when it comes to my situation, so I will just let you believe whatever you want about me.

 

Wow, what a strong reaction! Something hit a nerve somewhere. You start a thread in the Infidelity forum about conversing with a cheater, and then you get really defensive when a poster responds with his views about cheating?!? What exactly are you trying to accomplish with this thread, herenow? I thought the whole purpose of starting a thread was to promote discussion and elicit insight from different points of view... but that doesn't seem to be what you're looking for at all.

[OpenBook]

Enough with the insinuation that once a cheater always a cheater, because that is not always the case. No matter what it's OUR lives and OUR choices, so if you don't hear us complaining about those choices, please do us the favor of not complaining for us.

 

No, we don't hear you complaining, we see you spewing your uncontrolled anger out on others whom you perceive as the great enemy of your marriage (when the real enemy is sleeping beside you every night). Sorry, but from the way you treat other posters who don't come from the same place as you -- I'm afraid your favors are all used up.

[White Flower]

Originally posted by Herenow>

How can someone say they love their spouse and cheat on them?, maybe the person cheating doesn't realize the depth of that love until they are about to lose it, and then they know how devastating their actions have been to everyone involved.

 

 

Hi Herenow,

 

I have read a lot of your posts and think very highly of you because your line of thought shows how intelligent and caring you are. You seem to be one of the few who can forgive without harboring deep resentment and you and your husband both benefit from that. I like your topic because I believe it is reflective of my MM.

 

I don't want to bore you with all the details of my story, but my MM is definitely one of those who loves his W yet still cheats. I didn't want to believe it at first, but I think I see it now. He really is in a dreamworld. Most of the time with me, it is all about me. But, once in a while I can see that he feels guilty and needs to rush right back. Boy, that cuts like a knife, but I recognize it. The first time I recognized it I knew that he really loved her and that I couldn't wait around for him. He just needed me to be that fix for the moment and when it wears off he is outta there quick as a whistle.

 

Why did he cheat? There was a time he felt he no longer loved her and told her during counseling. He was trying to deal with it before an affair ever happened. For whatever reason, they felt they were on the road to healing and ended the M counseling. And I think he felt she had her claws in him. His words, not mine. A few years later he ended up with me. I know he fell in love with me, too, but if she ever gave him an ultimatum I feel he would chose her. He is as (Cobra and Reboot have warned me) using my love as a drug to get him through whatever pains him at home. As much as it hurts at least I can say I have learned a lot. Also, I wonder if he fell for me because I was such a softy? Maybe he figured I was safe and would never be mean enough to tell his W? Less of a risk to cause her pain by being with someone who has known much? I'm still looking for my own answers.

 

And Cobra, your cause and effect model was a little too basic for me, no effense. I wonder why such an intelligent guy like you is not married? How old are you? I hope you're not too picky to ever get married. It's just that your standards are already high and I wonder where you're going to find Miss Right? I am really saying this with a thoughtful and caring voice, btw.

 

MichaelK, I think you may be onto something with wondering if you wanted to be discovered. Sometimes I think, "If only H could hear this voicemail and see how it made my day". It's like part of me just wants H to know what kind of man I really need so that he could either be that for me or at least validate my reasons for divorcing. Of course I don't dare show him these things or say them to him because it would be hurtful. And I don't see us working things out. My counselor nailed it, btw, Reboot with what you said: We were just not made for each other.

 

And I was the cheater because part of me knew it was over and the other part was just a vengeful brat (for the first time in my life). I had already asked for a D and he just wouldn't leave or go to counseling or anything. So, I thought we could be roommates and I could do my own thing; sort of fulfill my needs one of which was love. I really could have done without the P in this A, but even that turned out to be awesome until I realized he still loved her.

[OpenBook]

I don't want to bore you with all the details of my story, but my MM is definitely one of those who loves his W yet still cheats.

 

Boy, that is some kinda "love"!!

 

Also, I wonder if he fell for me because I was such a softy? Maybe he figured I was safe and would never be mean enough to tell his W? Less of a risk to cause her pain by being with someone who has known much? I'm still looking for my own answers.

 

Well, kindness and gentleness is very attractive, to anyone. Especially to someone who's lacking it in their own life. Human nature - we naturally gravitate toward people who treat us well and think highly of us. Try not to beat yourself up over this, White Flower - you brought another human being great happiness, if only for a short time. You loved him well... that you should never regret.

 

And Cobra, your cause and effect model was a little too basic for me, no effense. I wonder why such an intelligent guy like you is not married?

 

Hmmm... Maybe he's not married BECAUSE he's intelligent. To be sure, there's not a whole lot of logic and common sense involved in getting hitched these days. It's just too risky.

 

MichaelK, I think you may be onto something with wondering if you wanted to be discovered. Sometimes I think, "If only H could hear this voicemail and see how it made my day". It's like part of me just wants H to know what kind of man I really need so that he could either be that for me or at least validate my reasons for divorcing. Of course I don't dare show him these things or say them to him because it would be hurtful. And I don't see us working things out. My counselor nailed it, btw, Reboot with what you said: We were just not made for each other.

 

And I was the cheater because part of me knew it was over and the other part was just a vengeful brat (for the first time in my life). I had already asked for a D and he just wouldn't leave or go to counseling or anything. So, I thought we could be roommates and I could do my own thing; sort of fulfill my needs one of which was love. I really could have done without the P in this A, but even that turned out to be awesome until I realized he still loved her.

 

Why do I see similarities between your H and your MM in these words?? Seems like they both still love their W's... but they sure aren't treating them very well.

[Scrivdog]

I agree that one should never stay in a neglectful situation, as long as the issues are effectively communicated during the course of the marriage. Having said that, you walk from unmet needs, not lie and cheat.

 

There's no excuse for cheating, regardless of situation. Any attempt to justify cheating is just that, justification.

 

Are you certain you've addressed your issues?

 

Unfortunately marriages do not allow for such bold Cartesian statements to be true, no matter how wise you think they sound.

 

Cheating is a form of walking where divorce is not an option. I crack up at how people here so filppantly will say "Just get a divorce!". If you have kids, you simply don't want to do that. Even if I'd gladly divorce my wife tomorrow - I wouldn't divorce my kids.

 

And that leaves the other two options: celibacy and infidelity. Even monks and priests can't handle celibacy.

 

But I know many want to ignore the role of the spouse as though it's their God-given prerogative to be neglectful. It's so much easier, of course, to portray them as the faultless victims.

 

As Mz. Pixie pointed out correctly, and I have gathered from my own research - unmnet needs are the main cause of infidelity. Not meeting the needs of a husband is particularly stupid given that most men have very simple needs when it comes to a marriage - and having those simple needs unmet cause the most distress in a marriage.

[Impudent Oyster]

No, we don't hear you complaining, we see you spewing your uncontrolled anger out on others whom you perceive as the great enemy of your marriage (when the real enemy is sleeping beside you every night). Sorry, but from the way you treat other posters who don't come from the same place as you -- I'm afraid your favors are all used up.

 

My husband is not my enemy, but women with no self-respect who cannot stand to see a marriage thrive because the only way THEY will get their man is if his wife boots him (and even then it's a long shot), are so embarrassingly obvious.

 

Keep encouraging those BS's to boot the WS Openbook, if you're lucky you may get one of the rejects.

[Impudent Oyster]

 

But I know many want to ignore the role of the spouse as though it's their God-given prerogative to be neglectful. It's so much easier, of course, to portray them as the faultless victims.

 

As Mz. Pixie pointed out correctly, and I have gathered from my own research - unmnet needs are the main cause of infidelity. Not meeting the needs of a husband is particularly stupid given that most men have very simple needs when it comes to a marriage - and having those simple needs unmet cause the most distress in a marriage.

 

Scrivdog, Was that your way of saying you aren't getting any? (From your wife anyway).

 

When's the last time you took her out to dinner, helped her with the kids, sent her for a massage, gave her a hug and a kiss without it being a precursor to sex?

 

You might want to think about her needs, because she has them too, and something tells me they aren't being met either.