Conversation with a cheater

[JamesM]

Not always. Sometimes they just want a loving relationship.

 

While I do agree with this to a small extent, it goes deeper than that. It is to fill some void that is missing in the current relationship. But to be a cheater also means that the cheater is willing to forgo communicating his needs and problems with the person he promised to love til death do us part.

 

Most men who fall into affairs do so and rationalize the affair with either "She did not give me enough sex, She did not understand me, She did not..." But when you ask the wife..."Did YOU know about all of this?" Most women have no clue. There may have been passive clues laid around, but there was never a direct confrontation when the cheater said, "I feel...." Why? Because it is easier to avoid that confrontation. On the flipside, many have confronted their wives once, but no more. Commitment requires work. It is not always fun.

 

And yet, there is the BS who has been told a few times and ignored all pleas and yells for change. And while I don't advocate affairs, many of these affairs really are nothing more than a yell for change in a way that the BS cannot ignore. The end result expected by the cheater is not divorce but reconciliation. And that is why so many MM run back to their wives.

[Trialbyfire]

James, why didn't you cheat, when your wife wasn't/isn't providing you with your needs? Based on the logic provided by members who've cheated or are/were OW/OM, you were fully justified to cheat, no?

[JamesM]

James, why didn't you cheat, when your wife wasn't/isn't providing you with your needs? Based on the logic provided by members who've cheated or are/were OW/OM, you were fully justified to cheat, no?

 

Truthfully, I don't really know why two years ago when I joined here that I didn't cheat. I guess the opportunity was never there. Also, the fact that I might lose my family was a big factor. I knew that I was not good at conducting a secret life. I can say sadly that if the opportunity was available, I don't think I could have said no. But that is looking back.

 

Now it is much easier. There are many reasons...my children are very important and don't deserve an upheaval in their lives based on my selfishness (this is a huge reason for me), my wife is by best friend (this was not the case two years ago), my life on this Board would be over or I would have to conceal part of my life (and as crazy as that sounds, I don't feel anonymous on here), and I have an email buddy whose husband cheated on her and she kept him. (The thought of telling her when I have been a good shoulder for her to cry on would devastate her almost as much as her husband, because she thinks I am different).

 

I think I have unknowingly built a number of "hedges" in place to prevent an affair, but I know that if I am not cautious, I am just as vulnerable.

[nadiaj2727]

My husband is not my enemy, but women with no self-respect who cannot stand to see a marriage thrive because the only way THEY will get their man is if his wife boots him (and even then it's a long shot), are so embarrassingly obvious.

 

Keep encouraging those BS's to boot the WS Openbook, if you're lucky you may get one of the rejects.

 

 

Good response, IO. *applause* I don't see you spewing all of this anger that Openbook refers to. I just don't see it! Of course you're angry that another woman slept with your husband... I would be too. But I don't see you being mean and nasty like Openbook implies you are. Maybe I missed something somewhere along the way... I just don't understand why Openbook is so hostile to you?! I think you tell it like it is, and I agree that maybe people's problem with you is their own problem, they don't like to be told they're doing something indecent. If so, they do deserve the rejects that the wives have kicked out, and you deserve your husband's undivided attention now that he's smart enough to not have an OW.

[Trialbyfire]

Truthfully, I don't really know why two years ago when I joined here that I didn't cheat. I guess the opportunity was never there. Also, the fact that I might lose my family was a big factor. I knew that I was not good at conducting a secret life. I can say sadly that if the opportunity was available, I don't think I could have said no. But that is looking back.

 

Now it is much easier. There are many reasons...my children are very important and don't deserve an upheaval in their lives based on my selfishness (this is a huge reason for me), my wife is by best friend (this was not the case two years ago), my life on this Board would be over or I would have to conceal part of my life (and as crazy as that sounds, I don't feel anonymous on here), and I have an email buddy whose husband cheated on her and she kept him. (The thought of telling her when I have been a good shoulder for her to cry on would devastate her almost as much as her husband, because she thinks I am different).

 

I think I have unknowingly built a number of "hedges" in place to prevent an affair, but I know that if I am not cautious, I am just as vulnerable.

It's strange if you think about it. Are you certain there weren't any opportunities or was it that you consciously/subconsciously prevented any opportunities?

 

I could have revenge cheated on my ex-H but I didn't. Wonder why? I had a lot of opportunities to cheat on my ex-H, during the course of our marriage, since my industry is full of the self-entitled. It's not as if I was never angry at my ex-H and we never fought. I wonder why I didn't cheat? Coincidence, no?

[JamesM]

It's strange if you think about it. Are you certain there weren't any opportunities or was it that you consciously/subconsciously prevented any opportunities?

 

I could have revenge cheated on my ex-H but I didn't. Wonder why? I had a lot of opportunities to cheat on my ex-H, during the course of our marriage, since my industry is full of the self-entitled. It's not as if I was never angry at my ex-H and we never fought. I wonder why I didn't cheat? Coincidence, no?

 

It could be that part of me prevents it. I remember about a year ago that in the store that I work in occasionally, a girl acted interested. Since I was not wearing my wedding ring (I smashed it on a grave stone that I was carrying. Now I have it on again), so she did not know I was married. Anyhow, as we were talking, I asked her what she did. She said she was a nurse. ( I am attracted to nurses for some reason. ). And without even thinking, my next comment was.."My wife is a nurse, too." And as soon as I said it, I wondered now why did I go and say that? There goes that one." Her attitude changed. Now I hadn't flirted or anything, but she now viewed me differently. Was that by subconscious protecting me? Who knows...but I think I do that more often than I realize.

 

As for you, I don't know enough to analyze you , but it is possible that something in you knew that this would result in more trouble. I doubt it is coincidence, because I think if someone wants to cheat, he or she can create opportunities.

[reboot]

I think you're both just like me, stubborn headed.

[Trialbyfire]

It could be that part of me prevents it. I remember about a year ago that in the store that I work in occasionally, a girl acted interested. Since I was not wearing my wedding ring (I smashed it on a grave stone that I was carrying. Now I have it on again), so she did not know I was married. Anyhow, as we were talking, I asked her what she did. She said she was a nurse. ( I am attracted to nurses for some reason. ). And without even thinking, my next comment was.."My wife is a nurse, too." And as soon as I said it, I wondered now why did i go and say that. Her attitude changed. Now I hadn't flirted or anything, but she now viewed me differently. Was that by subconscious protecting me? Who knows...but I think I do that more often than I think.

 

As for you, I don't know enough to analyze you , but it is possible that something in you knew that this would result in more trouble. I doubt it is coincidence, because I think if someone wants to cheat, he or she can create opportunities.

Admit it, it's the uniform and the thermometer.

 

I suspect you do subconsciously protect your marriage because you value it and your family.

 

You are dead right. It's no coincidence. It was conscious effort on my part to ensure there were no opportunities. You don't fall in love with someone at first sight. You allow feelings to build.

[nadiaj2727]

Sorry...off topic. There are a number of possible reasons. Physiological, sexual abuse in childhood, and more. The physiological seems to be the one. (Sexual abuse has been dealt with before and she does not think this is the reason. Since I have been in tune to this, I don't either). She has mentioned to her doctor about it before, but they (IMO) don't seem to give it as much thought as they should. Just yesterday when we talked about it (because of an article in the paper), she thought that she should go to her gynecologist for tests. But the thing is...she doesn't have a hunger for sex, so the urgency is not there. What I need to get through to her...and must not be yet...is that if it is important to me, then maybe it is important to her marriage.

 

She is on a number of prescripts, and from my research, the only meds available are hormones...which can cause cancer. And as she asked me when reading that article, "do you want me to take a pill that would increase my risk for heart disease or cancer so that I would want sex?" While this is an obvious answer, I truly meant it when I said emphatically, "No."

 

 

 

Hey, I get real personal on this Board. No, she cannot orgasm through intercourse or at least not very often. Whether that is her or me, I don't know. I certainly have no problems practicing more often to improve my skills. But she orgasms quite well through oral, and she likes it. The catch is....when you think of sex and orgasms, then you have a desire. For her, the desire to have one is not there. In the past, she had this desire. SO, this is what makes me think it is physiological. Yes, it could be over work, children, emotional, or other psychological reasons, but she says she never gets these desires anymore.

 

Sorry, herenow for the change in topic. But yes, I do wrestle with thoughts of cheating more often than I like. I am thankful that so far the opportunity has not risen when the desire was there. Usually, I am "dumb enough" to indicate to a woman rather quickly that I am married, so that any interest on my part would be obvious cheating.

 

Most cheaters do not plan on cheating. It is something that comes because of a work relationship or a deepening friendship that comes at a time when the cheater is vulnerable. Much as we like to villify the man/woman who does the cheating, I can understand that many do it out of frustration with their situation. It is easy to say...then divorce before having an affair. Just like the BS who before would have never stayed with a cheater and now does, so a cheater usually never thinks he or she would cheat. It is a step by step thing that ends up in an affair. The woman who comes on to a man in a vulnerable moment appears more attractive than if he were single or happy in marriage. The woman who touches a man in obvious attraction and makes the man feel sexually attractive when his wife no longer cares for him physically.....these are some of the initial invitations for a man whose defenses are done.

 

While it is easy to say that a cheater has no excuse for cheating, it is just as easy to say that many of the so called victims of cheating could have helped prevent the cheater from being put into a position to feel vulnerable to cheating. The problem is that they rarely get told that there needs to be a change prior to the affair, or it could be that they don't take the pleas/yells for help very seriously. Many cheaters do so without really attempting to fix the areas that they see as a problem.

 

Each affair has three people at least who have made choices. The MM/MW who chose each little step that led to the affair. The OW/OM who allowed him or herself to "fall in love" with a man or woman who was already committed to someone else, and the one who rarely gets any "blame" is the BS who could have prevented some of the affairs that occurred. A good marriage is the best defense against an affair.

 

While we (my wife and I) have a big problem in the sex area of our marriage, the fact that we (truthfully, mainly I) keep working at the communication and other areas outside of sex, I think is why we have been able to survive this. Of course, the fact that I found this Board has something to do with it as well.

 

Cheating is not as simple as it sounds. It is not an evil man or woman who suddenly plans to have an affair while he or she is in a perfect marriage. Yes, it is a person who has decided whether consciously or unconsciously to break a commitment. But most cheaters were put into a position of frustration by a marriage that is far from perfect. This may be mostly the cheater's fault, but it is never all of the cheater's fault.

 

 

(There are exceptions to all of my comments, I am sure. None of these comments were intended to hurt those people who have been betrayed in a marriage from an affair. Nor does it give an excuse for an affair. As one who by some standards has every excuse to have an affair, I know that commitment can override vulnerabilities).

 

Enough said.

 

Hi James, we haven't officially "met" on the forum but I often read your posts and I just wanted to let you know that they are very insightful and they help teach me. Thanks for sharing your perspective as a married man with some unhappy aspects to your marriage (but overall it sounds happy, which is good. ) I admire you for valuing commitment over personal pleasure. In fact as someone who has been involved in an affair (never again!), I would say that you are actually protecting your personal pleasure/ happiness by valuing your marriage commitment (or any other standards/ morals) too much to indulge yourself with becoming involved with another woman... b/c in the end, everyone ends up getting hurt by an affair, including MM. All marriages have problems and it's refreshing to see someone admitting theirs and actively working on it instead of having an affair, which only perpetuates and increases the problems within a marriage, and adds new ones with OW!!!

[Trialbyfire]

I think you're both just like me, stubborn headed.

reboot, always the sniper.

[Mz. Pixie]

This dovetails quite nicely with the psychology of someone who cheats. There's something broken inside of them that requires external validation.

 

I never said that I was broken inside. I said I had some childhood issues that I was sure you would say I was using as justification- which is of course in a round about way what you've said.

 

As for both of you discounting the effect of your childhood, he has no responsibility for this. It's not a "we" situation. This is a "you" situation. There's no way in the world that something you haven't dealt with, can be known or addressed by someone who doesn't live in your brain.

 

He had no responsibility for what happened to me as a child certainly. However he could have started by being a partner to me in my healing instead of telling me that IC was taking too much time away from my family and that I needed to quit.

 

See, you don't know me- and my situation is probably completely different from your exhusbands- I don't know. I haven't read your sitch. But every situation is different. I never said you weren't meeting your husband's needs and that is why he cheated. I'm just telling you what happened with me.

 

You're lumping everyone that has cheated into one category. Sure they do share one characterisitic or two- which was the cheating and being selfish while it was going on- but that doesn't mean that every situation is the same.

[Mz. Pixie]

By the way, TBF- I saw on your other post that your exhusband was NPD???

 

My mother suffered from that as well. That may give you a little insight as to why a relationship with someone as selfish perhaps might have a few issues.

[Trialbyfire]

Yes Mz. Pixie, he was and is NPD. A good recipe for cheating.

[Impudent Oyster]

Good response, IO. *applause* I don't see you spewing all of this anger that Openbook refers to. I just don't see it! Of course you're angry that another woman slept with your husband... I would be too. But I don't see you being mean and nasty like Openbook implies you are. Maybe I missed something somewhere along the way... I just don't understand why Openbook is so hostile to you?! I think you tell it like it is, and I agree that maybe people's problem with you is their own problem, they don't like to be told they're doing something indecent. If so, they do deserve the rejects that the wives have kicked out, and you deserve your husband's undivided attention now that he's smart enough to not have an OW.

 

Thanks Nadia, and I agree, (naturally), I'm not spewing venom or being mean, but I am telling it like it is, and I think a lot of people don't want to hear that message.

 

I guess it's a case of shooting the messenger. They really hate my message, because it interferes with their delusion.

[White Flower]

Originally quoted by Ms. Pixie>

That may give you a little insight as to why a relationship with someone as selfish perhaps might have a few issues.

 

I tried to get my H into C to diagnose his NPD. I already knew he had it, but tried to get him to accept it so he could learn how to deal with it. Trouble is, someone with NPD is too selfish to go to C for the marriage.

[Mz. Pixie]

Originally quoted by Ms. Pixie>

That may give you a little insight as to why a relationship with someone as selfish perhaps might have a few issues.

 

I tried to get my H into C to diagnose his NPD. I already knew he had it, but tried to get him to accept it so he could learn how to deal with it. Trouble is, someone with NPD is too selfish to go to C for the marriage.

 

The problem is is that they really don't believe they are the problem.

[OpenBook]

Key point right there. The guy thought he owned you and therefore saw no reason to make any effort to keep things good. Some people think a marriage license is a certificate of ownership.

 

But Scriv - isn't that effectively what it is - ownership?? Your W effectively "owns" you because you won't leave the M - too many ties there? BTW, I completely agree with you. I just want to know more of what you think about this. I have witnessed too many troubled M's that look (to me) like some sick form of slavery. I want to know if I'm reading it wrong.

[Scrivdog]

I don't see how I could have been any clearer. I'm staying because I want to stay with the kids. Period. It's really not all that complicated.

 

But Scriv - isn't that effectively what it is - ownership?? Your W effectively "owns" you because you won't leave the M - too many ties there? BTW, I completely agree with you. I just want to know more of what you think about this. I have witnessed too many troubled M's that look (to me) like some sick form of slavery. I want to know if I'm reading it wrong.

[OpenBook]

I don't see how I could have been any clearer. I'm staying because I want to stay with the kids. Period. It's really not all that complicated.

 

I apologize for bothering you.

[White Flower]

The problem is is that they really don't believe they are the problem.

That is exactly the problem!

[JamesM]

Hi James, we haven't officially "met" on the forum but I often read your posts and I just wanted to let you know that they are very insightful and they help teach me. Thanks for sharing your perspective as a married man with some unhappy aspects to your marriage (but overall it sounds happy, which is good. ) I admire you for valuing commitment over personal pleasure. In fact as someone who has been involved in an affair (never again!), I would say that you are actually protecting your personal pleasure/ happiness by valuing your marriage commitment (or any other standards/ morals) too much to indulge yourself with becoming involved with another woman... b/c in the end, everyone ends up getting hurt by an affair, including MM. All marriages have problems and it's refreshing to see someone admitting theirs and actively working on it instead of having an affair, which only perpetuates and increases the problems within a marriage, and adds new ones with OW!!!

 

Thank you for your kind words...and welcome to the Board. It sounds like you gained quite a bit of wisdom from your experience with a MM.

 

I tried to PM you, but I see you do not have the capability yet.

[JamesM]

I don't see how I could have been any clearer. I'm staying because I want to stay with the kids. Period. It's really not all that complicated.

 

And it really is a great motivator for men and women who are in unhappy marriages.

 

While my marriage has been tough a number of times, I have not felt that the troubles we had/have were or are big enough to tear apart the family and change forever the lives of our children.

 

And many times, the fact that this could happen if I followed through on some selfish urges, has been a motivator to attempt to prevent such actions.

[ghdeter]

i dont know first hand but, put it this way, get a good new movie, watch it once its great, even a few times after that its good and u find new things in, but after a while, it starts to get old, even though it gets boring, u still love it a lot, see what im saying

[White Flower]

I don't see how I could have been any clearer. I'm staying because I want to stay with the kids. Period. It's really not all that complicated.

I'd like to defend Scrivdog here because he really is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't stay for the kids. You hear the BS always blaming WS for messing up the kids lives yet Scriv is staying for the benefit of the kids and everyone is telling him to D! But even as I defend, his delivery can be harsh...even to those in the same boat.

[White Flower]

Here is Herenow's question:

 

"I bring this up because I think that there are many MM or MW who have affairs and they really don't think they are risking anything. It's a game that they play until they get caught and then reality hits them in the face. So when we ask: How can someone say they love their spouse and cheat on them?, maybe the person cheating doesn't realize the depth of that love until they are about to lose it, and then they know how devastating their actions have been to everyone involved. "

 

In my case, I didn't care if I got caught because to me the M was dead anyway, but not getting caught was a plus.

 

Sorry, I didn't get to finish this idea because I was interupted before.

 

There was definitely a side of me that didn't care about the marriage because it was so bad. And though it was bad there were a few "I love yous" even still. Why? Even though I'd asked for a D, and then an open M, and MC there were just times I guess we both needed to hear it. You want your kids to hear their parents saying it. To a degree I even meant it. Even though someone can completely strip you of all your self worth, if you are a good person you still hold some kind of value for them especially if they fathered your children and you have a long history with them. But I did not say I loved him because I was deeply in love with him. I said it because I cared for him. I believe we said it to each other because we were having moments of trying to be nice and taking a break from the hate. And once in a very blue moon I think I may be able to fall in love with him again if he tried. It's happened before.

 

So, for me, saying I love you to my H during a time when I was cheating was mostly to be nice and to keep the peace, and just maybe in the farest depths of my mind it was a placeholder; something that gave me hope of a future truth. I cannot believe how hard it was to say that.

 

In conclusion, I think Herenow proposes a very rational answer to her question especially to those cheaters who still love their spouses on a deeper level than I did.