Question About Karma

[Gwyneth]

These are All very good answers I agree with what most of you say. I also think that it takes two to drive one spouse away to cheat. The BS may not be aware that their actions drove their spouse away. I have spoken to many divorced men and women about why their spouse cheated and they have all admitted it was because of their marriage, and both were to blame for the cheating. An unfaithful spouse doesn't just wake up one morning and think to him or herself, "I think I'll cheate on my spouse today." There is something being lacked in their marriage that drives this spouse to cheat, whether or not the BSs want to admit to that. The best solution would be to work on that missing link, but some spouses choose the easy way out--cheating.

 

Back to Karma--we are human, we All do bad things and it affects our lives in all differet ways. Unfortunately for some, it hits with a cheating spouse. I have a hard time believing that the BS is in the marriage not knowing what their spouse truly is like. I'm sure that is Very possible--not to know your spouse is a cheater and / or liar, but the signs are normally Always there. Maybe it's that the BS is ignoring those signs. My MM's wife is a perfect example of that! She knows her hubby is doing naughty things and has caught him doing some of these naughy things, yet she just keeps letting it "slip" by. So she is choosing not to dig deeper to find out what is wrong with her marriage. That is her fault right there! She's letting her husband get away with this.

 

Anyway, I know many of you do not beleive in Karma, and I'm not sure if I do or not, but I thought I'd throw this mind boggling question out there to get some feedback and I got some really great feedback!

 

Thank you

[stillafool]

I think innocent people get cheated on because life isn't easy and no one goes untouched by pain. It is how you handle the pain and the lessons you learn that ends up being and bringing forth your greatest rewards.

[Gwyneth]

The only thing that most of did to get cheated on, was marry a person with a weak character. I believe God used Mr. Messy Pants to get my attention about something that he had been trying to get me to see and I wouldn't acknowledge it. He wanted me to seek him first. Try to please him and change for him. NOT for some man who would leave me when the mood and his d*ck hit him. He wanted me to know that he loves me even when I don't give him the time of day.

 

NO matter how hard I tried to please Mr. Messy Pants, it was never going to be enough, because he can't be pleased. I needed to be reminded who truly loves me and he used the one thing that I put before him to do it. He made sure I understood what he was saying by using a woman I couldn't stand and who I knew.

 

LESSON LEARNED.

 

This relates to what NoraJane said on the previous page:

 

I am not a BS, but I'll answer.

 

I don't see it as karma. I see bad results as a natural consequence of making self-destructive choices in terms of who and what you accept and go after in life.

[NoIDidn't]

I agree with NJ and Cobra. People that show extreme selfishness usually do meet up with the consequences of their actions. I don't believe in "karma" but I do believe that what goes around, comes around. And that we reap what we sow.

 

There's that old saying of being careful of who you step on on your way to the top, as you will likely see them again on your way back down.

 

As far as the innocent spouse reaping karma, that's laughable. Bad things happen to good and bad people. All the time. To equate being cheated on with karma, as in being the betrayed person's fault, is nonsense. Its like saying that it is a person's fault that they were mugged. Did the person that got mugged do something to get mugged, or did the person that mug them simply make a selfish decision to mug them to enrich themselves?

[OWoman]

There is NO WAY a spouse could not have more information about her OWN HUSBAND, with whom she has been living and taking care of for YEARS - than the OW who comes wandering into his life.

 

Only if the W has been paying attention! How many MM haven't you heard say "my W doesn't understand me"? Many Ws ASSUME they know their H, and no doubt reciprocally, when in fact what they know is a projection of who they assume their spouse to be.

[twistedapart1]

Did I say people deserve to be cheated on? No. I am Asking why innocent people are cheated on--what did they do to get cheated on. My question and accusing innocent spouses of deserving to be cheated on are two different things. GEEEZ

 

 

Uh.. are the people cheated on actually INNOCENT of everything? I mean, nobody is a saint.

If Karma in fact exists, it looks like the wife had it coming in some way.

And no, I don't believe in superstitious wives tales like KARMA etc.

Purely coincidental events that people like to attribute as "karma" when really those similiar events happen to innocent people as well.

That's just LIFE, not karma.

 

I'd like comparing this nonsense to that of christians saying "god saved me" or "he deserved to die" or "god caused this calamity".. and then there are millions of innocent people dying that god doesn't give a damn about?.. give me a break. Oh no.. their response would be "it was their time to die". LOL.. yeah ok.

Predestined philosophies would take away that human "free will" that is talked about so often by these bible men!

[Owl]

So...if the BS was in the same marriage as the WS...why didn't the BS cheat?

 

They were both in the same marriage, the same 'situation that led to cheating'.

 

What was the difference?

 

Obviously, how each person handled the situation. One went outside the marriage looking for whatever was missing.

 

Believe it or not, often what was missing wasn't something missing in the marriage, or missing in the BS. It was missing in the person who went outside of the marriage to begin with.

 

My wife had an emotional affair with an OM. It didn't get the chance to get to a physical one, simply because of the timing, me 'trusting my gut', and fighting to end it and fix our marriage.

 

Here's the interesting part. What was wrong in our marriage at the time wasn't me. It wasn't what I was doing. It was actually her... She was dealing with untreated depression, she lost her job, she got addicted to online gaming, etc... All of this led to her suddenly 'stepping out' of the family as a whole.

 

When we decided to reconcile, I didn't need to make sweeping changes in my behavior or actions. I wasn't the source of all the stress.

 

What was missing was her ability to manage that stress that happens when you've got teenaged kids. What was missing was issues that SHE needed to deal with, changes in actions and behavior on HER part.

 

And before you ask, no...she'd never shown evidence of these problems in the 16 years of marriage prior to this.

 

As the BS, I didn't do anything to 'deserve' this. I didn't create a hostile marriage or environment. There wasn't anything missing in me, or in "us".

 

Once we got worked though all of this, things became MUCH MUCH MUCH better. We're now three years plus into our 'recovered marriage'...and just recently celebrated our 20th anniversary.

 

I agree with Nora's summary, btw. We all 'reap what we sow'. If we're prone to make risky decisions (like dating someone who's already married), we're far more likely to suffer for those choices.

[OWoman]

So...if the BS was in the same marriage as the WS...why didn't the BS cheat?

 

They were both in the same marriage, the same 'situation that led to cheating'.

 

Not necessarily, no - "perception is reality" as the psychologists say, and it's quite possible for one spouse to perceive the marriage as just fine, while the other finds it smothering or cold or unsatisfying in whatever respect. From that angle, for one there's no call to cheat, whereas for the other... they may feel the need to start looking to augment what they perceive to be missing.

 

Owl I think few cases would be as cut and dried as yours - sometimes the "culpability" lies heavily one way, but more often I suspect there's stuff needing addressing on both sides.

[writeon]

How do you know they didn't "actively create their own unhappiness"?? Do you have some special insight into what's happening inside every marriage when the infidelity happens?

 

According to many posters here on LS, the BS indeed took an active role in causing the infidelity... by cutting off affection to her H, not paying any attention to him or his needs, etc. In these cases I would say that karma is indeed at work, and that you definitely reap what you sow!

 

I think saying that the Betrayed Spouse "caused" the infidelity is a cop-out. The two people who cheated (the Other Woman and the cheating spouse) are the only ones who actively "caused" the infidelity. Very few married people can get an extramarital affair started by saying "My wife makes me happy, let's cheat." They have to say they have a bad marriage and their wife is horrible, and the sad thing is that the Other Woman believes this instead of saying "come tell me how bad your ex-wife was and your former marriage was, after you get divorced. Don't trash talk your wife to me, that's bad character."

 

And I think many people must feel guilty for having an affair so they have to justify it by re-writing history with their spouse and their marriage. They forget the love they shared, the good times, and the positive parts of their spouse. If they spent more time focusing on these things instead of trying to get in another person's pants, they would not be saying "My wife doesn't understand me." (Oh please. I'm sure the wife understands everything about this guy, including his weaknesses, and that's what he doesn't like.) And if they took responsibility for their own actions instead of trying to blame it on the spouse who DIDN'T cheat, they would say "sure, maybe there are problems in my marriage and issues with my spouse. But *I'm* the one who cheated, and there is no excuse for that."

 

If there are that many problems, they should get divorced. If not, they should stay in the marriage and communicate those problems (to their wife, not another woman, geez) and work on it. To me, cheating is never an option. In my opinion it is just selfish (to both the wife and the other woman) to go looking for sex/ emotional compatibility with someone else because you think there's something wrong in your marriage, and THEN blame it on the spouse who didn't do that but certainly could have!!

 

I think people who cheat are broken inside. Soon the other woman will understand this about the married man and not want to be with him, either, whether or not he divorces his wife to be with her. That's karma to me.

 

I'm not trying to judge anybody and I'm not here to do that. I'm here to understand why people cheat. I believe in personal responsibility and to me, saying that "my spouse drove me to cheat" is just a cop-out and the exact opposite of personal responsibility. So in a way this post has helped me see one reason people cheat: they are selfish and they can't take responsibility for their own wrong doings, instead, they try to blame it on others, and ironically, they blame it on the spouse who hasn't cheated!! Go figure lol. I'm sorry but you will never sell me on the "my spouse drove me to cheat" argument, because I think it's way too flimsy and full of holes.

[writeon]

Not necessarily, no - "perception is reality" as the psychologists say, and it's quite possible for one spouse to perceive the marriage as just fine, while the other finds it smothering or cold or unsatisfying in whatever respect. From that angle, for one there's no call to cheat, whereas for the other... they may feel the need to start looking to augment what they perceive to be missing.

 

I don't understand your argument about why it is okay for one spouse who perceives dissatisfaction in the marriage to cheat on the other spouse. I think the spouse who perceives there is something wrong in the marriage should communicate this to the other spouse. A marriage is about two people, not just one (and definitely not one, and a third party, right?). The unhappy spouse could also go to counseling on their own or with their partner, confide in a family member or a very close (SAME SEX lol) friend or write their marital woes in a diary for goodness' sake. Why burden a third party with their marital problems? How would this FIX anything in the marriage? It would only make things worse, so instead of blaming the marital woes on the other spouse, the spouse who cheats should be blaming them on themself now, since they're not doing anything to make it better, right?

 

OWoman, why do you think that one spouse's perception of an unsastifying marriage justify that spouse to go out and cheat? I don't understand your point of view. I guess I am just really confused by this argument.

[OWoman]

OWoman, why do you think that one spouse's perception of an unsastifying marriage justify that spouse to go out and cheat?

 

That wasn't what I was saying - I was disagreeing with Owl's argument that it's the same situation for both, therefore both (ought to) have the same motivation or otherwise to cheat. I was saying that the situation is in fact quite different for the parties concerned - one may find it fine, the other abysmal, yet to an outsider it's the same marriage. Which is different to saying that it's OK to act on that by deciding to "cheat" rather than taking some other course of action.

 

[Which is not to say that I have a problem with affairs, per se - clearly (as an OW) I don't. I don't consider marriage sacred, or an institution to respect, so I don't recognise its bounds or constraints. But that's me, that's my perspective, that governs my actions and I recognise that it's not a perspective that's universally (or even generally shared) so I'm not trying to persuade anyone else that that's The Truth. Nor was that the argument I was presenting in my post - quite peripheral or extraneous to it, in fact.]

[OWoman]

Very few married people can get an extramarital affair started by saying "My wife makes me happy, let's cheat." They have to say they have a bad marriage and their wife is horrible

 

We must know different people, then... I wouldn't get involved with a MM (or at least, haven't to date) who told me how miserable his marriage was. Partly because I'm not interested in his marriage - that's his business, not mine - and partly because I'd suspect, and really resent if it were true, that I was being "used" as an escape mechanism from that unhappy marriage.

[writeon]

That wasn't what I was saying - I was disagreeing with Owl's argument that it's the same situation for both, therefore both (ought to) have the same motivation or otherwise to cheat. I was saying that the situation is in fact quite different for the parties concerned - one may find it fine, the other abysmal, yet to an outsider it's the same marriage. Which is different to saying that it's OK to act on that by deciding to "cheat" rather than taking some other course of action.

 

[Which is not to say that I have a problem with affairs, per se - clearly (as an OW) I don't. I don't consider marriage sacred, or an institution to respect, so I don't recognise its bounds or constraints. But that's me, that's my perspective, that governs my actions and I recognise that it's not a perspective that's universally (or even generally shared) so I'm not trying to persuade anyone else that that's The Truth. Nor was that the argument I was presenting in my post - quite peripheral or extraneous to it, in fact.]

 

Okay, I understand now, we are just coming from completely different places. Thanks for explaining.

[Gwyneth]

Only if the W has been paying attention! How many MM haven't you heard say "my W doesn't understand me"? Many Ws ASSUME they know their H, and no doubt reciprocally, when in fact what they know is a projection of who they assume their spouse to be.

 

Women just do not understand men. Do you undersand men??? I don't!!!!!

[writeon]

We must know different people, then... I wouldn't get involved with a MM (or at least, haven't to date) who told me how miserable his marriage was. Partly because I'm not interested in his marriage - that's his business, not mine - and partly because I'd suspect, and really resent if it were true, that I was being "used" as an escape mechanism from that unhappy marriage.

 

Oh okay. I guess I should have said that there aren't many people I know who would get involved with a happily married person: they would need to feel that the marriage was on the fritz as justification for the affair, and maybe as hope that the married person will end the marriage to be with the affair person. I see that your situation is completely different. I guess there is a little more integrity involved in telling the Other Woman I'm happy with the way things are, I just want to be with you, too. However I think integrity is lacking on the married man's part if he is not telling his wife the same thing. But I do understand your point of view better now and it makes sense to me that if you don't believe in marriage, you aren't bothered by the fact that he's cheating on his wife. I appreciate the explanation, it helps clear things up for me.

 

One thing we completely agree about is that I could never be used as an escape mechanism from an unhappy marriage. I wondered how Other Women could feel okay about having a married man explain all the bad issues in their marriage. I would think:

 

1. Okay, why not get divorced then, why just tell ME all this stuff and do nothing about it? (I realize that many say they are getting divorced, I would just find it hard to believe without seeing it.)

2. That is yucky that you are talking bad about your wife, whom you took vows to love, cherish, protect, etc. I can't have a relationship with someone who would do that.

3. Why are you using me as someone to unburden your problems on? What am I getting out of this except being used?? (I guess that is a good question to ask Other Women besides you. Unless I misread your post, you seem to be happy being the other woman and do not want more. This kind of relationship works for you, and you like knowing the truth instead of being lied to. But for those who want an exclusive relationship and for their man to get divorced, I would like to ask them what they are getting out of the relationship in the meantime?)

 

I think we may differ on some of our reasons, since I believe in the vows and you don't, but we seem to agree that being used as a channel for a bad marriage is never a situation we would want to be in.

[Gwyneth]

Uh.. are the people cheated on actually INNOCENT of everything? I mean, nobody is a saint.

If Karma in fact exists, it looks like the wife had it coming in some way.

And no, I don't believe in superstitious wives tales like KARMA etc.

Purely coincidental events that people like to attribute as "karma" when really those similiar events happen to innocent people as well.

That's just LIFE, not karma.

 

I'd like comparing this nonsense to that of christians saying "god saved me" or "he deserved to die" or "god caused this calamity".. and then there are millions of innocent people dying that god doesn't give a damn about?.. give me a break. Oh no.. their response would be "it was their time to die". LOL.. yeah ok.

Predestined philosophies would take away that human "free will" that is talked about so often by these bible men!

 

 

Agree!!! Many BSs, though, like to look like the poor innocent one though. I know Many women and men who were cheated on that didn't necessarily deserve it, but true--they aren't saints! Exactly--what goes around comes around. My mom was cheated on, and what did she do? She slept wiht my dad's best friend. I do not know what she did to get cheated on. Well, she now says--many years later, that she married for all the wrong reasons and mainly to get out of her parents' house. Look what happened in the end--a bad marriage and a cheating husband.

[Gwyneth]

God saved me and he loves you. Nobody deserves to die, they only die if it is God's will and God doesn't cause calamities, but he will allow things to happen for his will. Yes, I do believe in all his words. Karma is just another way of saying reaping what you sow.

 

Some do deserve to die. Like that gang who raped, dismantled, and killed the young couple in Tenessee last year? They deserve to die.

 

I do not believe in the whole God Saved me stuff--I save myself, not God, because there were times when God was needed and he wasn't present. I had to get myself out of my own mess.

[writeon]

Women just do not understand men. Do you undersand men??? I don't!!!!!

 

I don't think this question was aimed at me but I hope you don't mind if I answer it. I don't understand most men. But I understand my fiance. I know his strengths and weaknesses and he, mine. I think that's true love. At the beginning of our relationship, we each saw what we wanted to in the other and I accidentally tried to "make him" into what I wanted to be. But then I realized he accepts me for who I am, good and bad, and I need to do the same for him -- just let him be him, and not try to make it about what I want him to be. But I agree that many men are confusing!!, that's why I'm only marrying this one who I finally understand lol.

[Gwyneth]

I think saying that the Betrayed Spouse "caused" the infidelity is a cop-out. The two people who cheated (the Other Woman and the cheating spouse) are the only ones who actively "caused" the infidelity.

 

Right, but the affair was led on by a problem in the marriage. Well each case is different, and as I said a while back, some people handle their difficulties by acting out, ie. having an affair, instead of seeking help.

[Owl]

So...bottom line question...

 

Do you think/feel that any of these BS's "deserved" to be cheated on?

 

Do you feel that YOUR MM'S BS...."deserves" to be cheated on?

[Gwyneth]

So...bottom line question...

 

Do you think/feel that any of these BS's "deserved" to be cheated on?

 

Do you feel that YOUR MM'S BS...."deserves" to be cheated on?

 

Again, no. I agree with what NoraJane said on pg. 1 of this thread--our actions lead to consequences. You married the wrong person, but of course many BSs do not know that--which is why they were betrayed.

 

Very complicated question I posted. I absolutely do Not think at least All BSs deserved to be cheated on. I think they do if they were once a cheater. I also think that if you marry someone you knew was a cheater before marrying, then you reap what you sow. I don't make the rules...but I'm sure I'd be stupid enough in my own way to marry this MM if it ever came to that, then end up hurt. That's how I work...I'm retarded.

[nadiaj2727]

Very complicated question I posted. I absolutely do Not think at least All BSs deserved to be cheated on. I think they do if they were once a cheater. I also think that if you marry someone you knew was a cheater before marrying, then you reap what you sow. I don't make the rules...but I'm sure I'd be stupid enough in my own way to marry this MM if it ever came to that, then end up hurt. That's how I work...I'm retarded.

 

Just the fact that you have thought about whether or not you'd marry your MM shows that you have more feelings for him than you let on or that you may even realize. Be careful Gwyneth. I don't want to burst your bubble but this relationship is not going to head towards marriage, he's already a married man.

[Gwyneth]

Just the fact that you have thought about whether or not you'd marry your MM shows that you have more feelings for him than you let on or that you may even realize. Be careful Gwyneth. I don't want to burst your bubble but this relationship is not going to head towards marriage, he's already a married man.

 

Sorry, but I don't see from what I said you figure I have given marriage to him thought. I was jut making a general comment about marrying a man who has cheated. It's not the wisest thing, but I do believe in giving the benefit of the doubt. If I were to marry him or any other man who has a history of cheating, I think for myself and for others as well, it's best to go into this marriage knowing the possibilities of him / her cheating on you. Even if he never cheated in the past, there is Always that possibility. Hey, maybe I would be the one to cheat on him! One never knows...cheating is just so darn common these days. It's sad, really.

[nadiaj2727]

Sorry, but I don't see from what I said you figure I have given marriage to him thought. I was jut making a general comment about marrying a man who has cheated.

 

I figure you have given marriage to him a though because in an earlier post in this same thread, you wrote:

 

I'm sure I'd be stupid enough in my own way to marry this MM if it ever came to that, then end up hurt.

 

You were talking about if it ever came to marrying this specific MM, not just any man who has cheated in general. So that's where I saw that you've at least thought about this affair coming to the point of marriage. *shrug*

[whichwayisup]

Again, no. I agree with what NoraJane said on pg. 1 of this thread--our actions lead to consequences. You married the wrong person, but of course many BSs do not know that--which is why they were betrayed.

 

I don't believe that every person who cheats on their spouse feels that they married the wrong person. And, I'm sure many BS's don't look at it that way either.