Money, Dirty, Evil Money

[karenina21]

I hope someone can help me. I just don't know what to do anymore.

 

I am supposed to be getting married in September 2008. FH and I have been together almost 7 years. He bought me a ring with his tax refund in February 2007.

 

I've over time learned the seriousness of his financial situation. A few years ago, he got into $17,000 of credit card debt, got an inheritance, and paid it off. I knew that he'd gotten back some debt on his card since then, but only recently found out it had blown up to nearly $12,000.

 

He came to me crying one night at 4 a.m. the night before we were supposed to go on vacation. I had already reserved the hotel and couldn't cancel. He said he had overdrawn his account and that between that and the fees he was over by $1,000. He said the reason he'd been late coming in from work the night before was because he had called his father and asked for a loan to get him by.

 

Since we could not cancel the trip we went anyway and I paid for everything, the hotel, all meals, and a few souvenirs. I wanted him to enjoy the trip with the understanding that we'd talk and set up a budget when we got back. But he was miserable the whole time since he could not spend any money, and felt guilty that I was spending mine though I could afford it. He has yet to be able to pay me back.

 

We are trying to save for our wedding and had budgeted $500 a month which will give us enough to pay for everything. My parents are not rich but will contribute $1,000 and buy our cake. His parents are comfortable, but have not offered us one dime. I know they owe us nothing, but they know we are carefully trying to keep our heads above water and save every cent we have.

 

We can't change the wedding date without losing thousands in deposits.

 

He also lately has not been getting the mail, so I've been picking it up daily. He doesn't open his bills. One day a few months ago I accidentally opened one of his bills. It stated he was overdue and the amount owed for the month was outrageous. I started asking him almost daily if he was okay that week, if he needed me to help pay anything, etc. and he kept telling me he was paying everything on time. I know this cannot be the case.

 

In addition to the $12,000 in credit cards, he has the following expenses monthly: car payment of $330, insurance of $150, Internet and TV of $150, rent of $560 and wedding fund contribution of $250. He claims that his school loans are in deferment, but I can't get to the truth on that. His father calls him often saying one of the school loan companies is calling for him (he used to live in another state and they still call the old address even though he claims he's told them where we currently live and our phone number).

 

This year, I have done all of the Christmas shopping to date, even though we agreed on a set budget. He hasn't bought anything because he says he's broke. He says he "should" be able to make the wedding fund payment this month. He claims he's paid all the bills this month. However, today our Internet, phone and TV went out all of a sudden. I work from home, so this was a major disruption. When I called him on my cell he told me he'd take care of it. He called me back 20 minutes later to say the service would be back on within the hour. I asked if he paid the bill. He said yes he had, at the same time as always, but that it was a month and one day late.

 

I told him I cannot continue to live like this and hung up on him. It was mean of me, but I just couldn't help it. I need the Internet and phone to work. I pay half the rent, the electric bill, the house phone bill, the groceries each month in addition to my car payment (only 2 left), insurance, credit cards, school loans (one in deferment due to losing my job last year; but I am okay now to begin repayment when it's scheduled) and nails. I have extra money per month and am willing to help him where I can, but I cannot handle all of the bills he isn't able to pay.

 

The other weird thing is that his salary is only about $500 per year less than mine, yet I bring in $300 more take-home per pay period than he does. I think he needs to adjust his W-4 to not have so much tax taken out.

 

I have asked and asked and asked for him to 1) find a better paying job, since his current job runs him all over the place and he pays a fortune in gas which he then waits two weeks to get repaid, meaning he's always behind the 8 ball by about $300 a month to start; 2) please look into credit counseling to reduce his interest rate; 3) please sit with me, write down all expenses by us both, and work out a join budget; and 4) combine our accounts to one checking and one savings, and let me handle them.

 

So far, he has only done number 2, which is a good start, but he always says he doesn't want to talk about it when I bring up the other 3 items.

 

I just don't know what to do! I am fearful of the mess I am getting into; I am fearful that someday we won't be able to get or keep a house because the mortgage will be late since the money isn't there; I believe I will keep being dodged of the truth since he won't sit down and discuss it; and I am fearful that my own credit will get ruined. Currently I am managing okay, and my score is somewhere between 650 and 700 from my last report. But I can't take on too much more debt myself before I'm spread too thin.

 

He is a good man in other ways, but he is afraid and ashamed, and his attitude has been terrible lately. He is always glum, says he'd rather be dead than broke, takes no interest in what we do or where we go, refuses to see a doctor, and goes into spontaneous rages. Last weekend he bought the wrong kind of piecrust by accident. When I told him I would cook something else for the meal I had in mind and use the piecrust for another meal, he opened the screen door, took the piecrust, stomped on it several times, then stuffed it into a potted plant. The he took the screen door off, came inside, and I told him he shouldn't act like that at Christmas. He then took his hand and sent our tabletop tree and all the ornaments flying through the room, leaving me to clean the mess while he stormed out.

 

I love him but I don't know how to fix this problem and get or stay married. Please someone help me. Getting a second job is not an option with the professions and hours we both have. We are both too embarrassed to go to our families. Mine is in no position to help, though he has a brother who probably could help us, and who is a financial advisor to boot. I am not sleeping at night because of my worrying and I work during the day so I am always so tired.

 

Thanks for reading.

[Trialbyfire]

There's always some form of consolidation loan available. It might be time to do this, so his monthly expenses decrease. Also, do the two of you need two cars, or is there a way that you could car pool for work and share one vehicle for the rest of the time?

 

Your situation creates some serious discomfort for me, in that there are red flags that come to mind:

• Could a drug like cocaine be involved, since he's so short on cash and displays irrational and violent tendencies?
  
• How about gambling?
  
• Are you certain you want to marry a man who isn't fiscally responsible? The loss of a few thousand dollars, if you cancel your wedding, might be less of a hit compared to getting married to someone like this.

[karenina21]

I am certain it's not drugs. He would not be able to function in the job he does (network administrator with clients such as major airports) and get through the security if that were the case.

 

I just think he has a lot of pent up anger, fear and embarassment. Anger over finding himself in this situation, anger at not being able to solve it, anger at many things. Fear of losing his job and me. Embarrassed to not be the proverbial breadwinner and a success like his brother.

 

I just think he needs encouragement of me by his side, not to have me walk away completely. But you're right, I don't know what caused the big balloon to appear in the first place. He did make some major purchases, such as our TV and a few PC's, but they were paid off the first time he got into debt.

 

He's moved a lot since I've known him. Six times in seven years, mostly due to his job, so moving costs contributed to some. And I think I was blind to how well he was truly living, before we moved in together 1 and 1/2 years ago.

 

I have said that we can sell my diamond and I'll wear a fake till we can afford another one, it doesn't matter to me. I said I could sell some of my jewelry since I never wear it. I suggested he could sell his guitars, which he barely plays, and his XBOX and GameCube since they gather dust. But he says, and partly rightly, that if we have to sell the very things we worked so hard for that make life bearable, we might as well not live.

 

A debt consolidation loan isn't an option. He wouldn't be considered as his credit's pretty bad and I applied but we can't get the amount we need and the interest rate is not good.

[karenina21]

Also, yes we need two cars. He travels often in his job and though I work from home I often need the car for client appointments.

[karenina21]

OMG. Now that you have mentioned the possibility of cocaine...I just don't know. Now that I've thought hard about it...I just don't know. I just realized that I don't know how he got into debt both times. He is always sniffling and blowing his nose or scratching his nose. Many times when I call him he sounds out of breath. If we go to a restaurant he almost always has to go to the restroom for a few minutes and usually takes his phone. He has frequent overnights for work, supposedly. He is irritable with these random outbursts or else lethargic or depressed. He's not hungry much of the time. He's turned into kind of a slob, wearing the same clothes over and over and not showering every day.

 

Here are the symptoms I looked up:

 

Red, bloodshot eyes

A runny nose, frequently sniffing, or bloody nose

A change in eating or sleeping patterns

A change in groups of friends

A change in school grades or behavior

Acting withdrawn, depressed, tired, or careless about personal appearance

Losing interest in school, family, or activities he or she used to enjoy

Frequently needing money

Anxiety

Panic

Increased energy

Talking rapidly

Rapid pulse and respiration

Paranoia

Confusion

Dilated pupils

Hallucinations

Altered motor activities (tremors, hyperactivity)

Stereotyped, repetitive behavior

Anger

Impaired judgment

Perspiration or chills

Nausea or vomiting

Evidence of weight loss

 

He has some of these.

[kkthxbye]

I can understand and relate to everything you are going through. You seem like a very smart person and I am feeling all of your emotions as if I just lived through them all over again. Props to you first of all for recognizing these pitfalls at this stage of the game.

 

Let me just say what possible problems you may face (of which you already see coming because you're way smarter than I was at that stage).

 

I went ahead with the marriage, and braced myself for the impact.

However, I don't regret a thing. And here's why.

 

Same situation, but w/out the anger. I think you hit a prominent point when you said "not the proverbial bread winner." Don't overlook this. This is a very important part of your finance's well being in the relationship. He knows what your expectations are of him, and of the relationship as it ties to money. This must frustrate him because he hasn't gotten his ducks in a row. So naturally it will only get worse because he can't forgive himself for his misjudgement. And if he can't forgive himself for getting this over-his-head, YOUR forgiveness will seldom be heard. His emotions and reactions to what is going on his life financially will be possibly very different than what you think. You have to really imagine what he's going through, and its a very hard movie to watch.

 

It will be frustrating, and even heart breaking for you to watch, as it might turn out that your help isn't helping his situation.

I married my husband with over $50,000 in debt, wrecked credit, and almost no job security. I took the plunge because I had hoped we could figure out life together, and have a great one in the end. It is a long journey, and I never imagined how something so silly like money(this is a pun), could wreck a marriage in no time. I swear its part of some people's dna to be the breadwinner, and I can't blame them when some can't cope with not having their own financial independence.

We threw our money together, did what you suggested by taking over the bills myself. HUGE MISTAKE. Reason being, I took away the only independence he had left, his financial responsibility. So, with money going in, before I could get the bills paid; the money was gone. Quick self gratification to make himself feel better turned into compulsive shopping-quick happy fixes that ruined our stability.

I never would have seen that coming, as he hates to shop. But when you feel desperate, and loss of control creeps in, you may find yourself surprised at what you can do to feel just a little bit better.

 

Now we're back to separate accounts, independent jobs, and we each pay a portion of the bills as if almost roommates. BOY did he hate this decision, and put up a fight like I don't love him anymore and stretched the arm out putting him at the end length....but it was necessary for my mental health. If I'm a mess, how can I help us? Turns out he wanted to be the helper, he felt it was his JOB, and he was stiffled when I took care of everything. I left him nothing to work for.

 

But I don't regret the ride, no matter how hard it was, because I learned so much about my husband, whom I love dearly. I learned a lot about his core, what he perceives as his role in life, as a man. And I still have to figure out the ways to motivate him in the directions I think are needed, and will help in the end.

It is not easy. And you don't have to cancel your wedding if you feel that this man is the love of your life. I'm just here to offer you the tough road you have ahead of you, and not everyone enjoys this kind of adventure.

The hardest parts are not being able to buy a house, a car, or go on vacation, but we both started out with zip money, and zip credit. I brought debt into the relationship too. I had regretted not getting our ducks in order before we wedded, but would we have learned so much about ourselves had it happened otherwise?

You can look at this from every which direction. Just take what you can and do what you think is best.

 

He does need to figure out his way in the world, and unfortunately you may not be able to help as much as you'd like.

One thing that worked for me, that I still do, is try to lead by example. It took me working my butt off to pay off my debt, keeping a tight budget, selecting meals and shopping for only what we need, things like that to show him, gently, that control is achieveable. Not ragging, fighting, or nagging him helped. Just leading by example helped a lot.

I learned that his examples in life had left him short, and he simply couldn't think his way out of these situations. That might be why you two are together. You can help gently by showing him the things he hasn't learned yet.

But....he has to want to wake up to this too. You can only do so much in your effort.

 

Good luck to you, I hope everything works out, and you come out on the other side of the fence smelling of roses at your wedding. Bring no regrets, they weigh heavy on the heart, especially down the road.

[Tony T]

The list of symptoms you wrote could all be due to anxiety over finances. Some people are like alcoholics when it comes to money....they simply can't help themselves no matter what. They will to save and work within a budget but simply aren't able to. I seriously doubt your fiance will ever be able to do it. Often, it's due to problems from a dysfunctional family or other situations from childhood. It may very well be something he can't help but, nevertheless, it's very serious. No doctor in the world, no therapist, no financial expert may be able to get him to handle money properly.

 

Unless he CAN make some major permanent changes in the financial department, you cannot marry him....PERIOD! Your life will be ruined for all time if you do. See if he can get help and if it works...but don't spend years on it. Whatever you do, don't go down the aisle unless he can show you some restrain and conservatism when it comes to handling money.

 

I would worry a little bit about possible drug you...that's always a possibility but just plain poor use of money is a bigger possibility. IF IT IS DRUGS, and you really need to explore this...maybe even with professional advice...pack your things and move on NOW! Dealing with a druggie in rehab is not pretty and most often they backslide. Your life simply doesn't need complicating this way.

 

In any case, announce to him and to everyone else that the wedding is being put off for a while for various strategic reasons. Get this resolved ASAP!!!

[WaterTiger]

These are not the statements of a mentally healthy person.

"I'd rather be dead than in debt."

"If we have to sell our nice things, what's the point of living?"

 

These statements deeply concern me. This is going to sound very paranoid and dark...but people have committed suicide over things like this. They have also killed family members (namely YOU) so they wouldn't be left with the burden of the bills.

 

You and your boyfriend NEED HELP and need it NOW! You can be embarrassed later! Right now you need to start filling in that big hole he's dug. Gather up everything you can find and go to loan counciling yourself. Ask that he go with. If he refuses, go alone, but GO!

 

It can be solved! There is hope and a light at the end of the tunnel! I just got done paying off $8 grand in old credit cards. I'm debt free as of now.

 

DO NOT MARRY THIS MAN till he has proven that he can start paying his share of the bills. Postpone the wedding for another year. If you marry him these will become YOUR bills too.

[BettyBoop]

DO NOT MARRY THIS MAN till he has proven that he can start paying his share of the bills. Postpone the wedding for another year. If you marry him these will become YOUR bills too.

 

Ditto. The loss of your deposits is nothing compared to losing your sanity, money, house and life.

 

Do not marry this man until he has proven himself capable of paying off his debts.

[stillafool]

I have to agree not to marry him. His temper is pretty bad if he knocks over the Christmas tree and leaves you to clean up his mess.

 

He sounds like he has no control over his spending habits. If he feels life is not worth living unless he can spend money, and you guys aren't rich, he's got a hard road ahead of him. What about when you have to sacrifice to buy a home? What about when kids come along? Will he be able to buckle down and sacrifice for his family?

 

Also it concerns me that you two haven't sat down with all of your bills so you will know how deep in debt he really is. Until you see all of his statements you really don't know what the extent of his debt is. You'd better insist on this before you marry him.

 

My gut feeling is telling me that you should not marry this guy and end up ruining your credit. Postpone the wedding and keep living together until he shows more responsibility.

[katiebour]

I got myself into 15k of credit card debt while in college. I won't go into the details but I was incredibly stupid and it took me a long time to admit that I couldn't keep my head above water.

 

I signed up with CCCS (Consumer Credit Counseling Services.) They are great people, very understanding and willing to work with you. You just take all of your statements in along with an accounting of your monthly bills, and they will take everything over. You make one lump sum payment that they disburse to your creditors, they arrange to have your interest rates reduced, you cut up all the cards and live carefully. My payment on those 9 cards I had for 15k was $400/month. After 7 years of payment (I had some months where I could not pay and was living overseas- long story) I will be paying them off next month.

 

I know how incredibly stressful debt can be, constant calls, etc. He needs to go to CCCS or someone like them and get it taken care of. The creditors will stop calling, he'll only have one bill to pay each month and the use of credit will stop.

 

It's not us that you need to be speaking to- it's him. Share this thread with him; tell him how concerned you are and how much you want to see him get back on his feet financially. Ask him where the 12k went- ask him to tell you honestly if he has a drug problem.

 

I could easily chalk that kind of behavior up to financial stress. It's an awful feeling to work and work and stress and feel like you can never get ahead.

 

You're the only one who can decide if you're willing to marry him, spending habits, lack of fiscal control and all. If you do, keep everything separate and pay your own bills.

[saviourself]

honestly... i'd put off marrying him until he gets his head on straight. i can't help but wonder if there are kids involved? and if there aren't and you plan to have kids with this man in the future, it would be unwise to just let the wedding go as planned while he remains in serious debt. not only do you face the potential of losing a lot together, but i honestly wouldn't want to place children in that type of risk. worst case scenario, his debt problems get way out of hand. i've seen people end up without a place to stay or having to move into a one bedroom apartment in order to keep a roof over their heads due to their spending problems. its horrible when kids are involved.

 

like i said, i'd postpone the wedding til a TBA date. so what if you lose a few thousand dollars. it only adds more to the debt problem. which may seem counterproductive at first... but actually makes sense to sacrafice a bit of money in order to work on fixing the problem before it gets even more out of hand and you lose double or even triple your deposits. sometimes we have to make sacrafices in order to obtain the results we want/need.

 

i don't think it'd be wise to marry him now while this is going on. i'm sure he's embarassed and needs your support, but that can be given without the marriage taking place just yet.

 

be honest, direct, and firm. tell him he needs to work on solving this problem before you get married that way you guys don't have that stress weighing on your marriage and creating unneeded problems. if he wants or you are willing... help him stick to a plan. one partner's debt in a marriage can negatively affect the other partner. if i were in your position i wouldn't want to assume his debt by marrying him just yet.

 

my fiance has a problem with letting money slip through his fingers. and we can't have that while we're trying to purchase a house and start a stable home. as a result of that he hands me his pay every week. i have to hide the money from him and give him money as he needs it and it can't be for stupid reasons. he's having his tax money direct depositied into my bank account, which only i have access to. i act like a human bank. thus far... he's noticed that he doesn't blow $500 from friday to sunday and we're actually left with 200-300 by his next pay date.

 

either way... good luck to you and i hope everything works out for the better

 

pride aside... your man's gotta step up and fix his problems.

[centered]

These are not the statements of a mentally healthy person.

"I'd rather be dead than in debt."

"If we have to sell our nice things, what's the point of living?"

 

These statements deeply concern me. This is going to sound very paranoid and dark...but people have committed suicide over things like this. They have also killed family members (namely YOU) so they wouldn't be left with the burden of the bills.

 

Agreed. Last year I had a very chilling experience. A friend of mine, married to a handsome man for 10 years, sharing 2 beautiful little girls together, started having some marriage problems. Her husband, formerly an IT director for a large company, lost his job due to down sizing shortly after the dot-com bust, and he had been struggling for a few years to find a good job that paid a decent amount of money. My friend was a medical doctor -- GP -- and made a good salary. After her husband got tired of losing one job after another as companies went bust, she offered to make him a partner in her medical practice. The problem was, it was *her* practice, her business, and he felt he was basically her employee. He put on a good face, and they got by on her income, but money was tight. They were both proud people, and never asked the community for herlp, even though the church they belonged to sometimes offered food or help with house repairs. They struggled like this for 2 years, the kids always being their focus, and, as a family, they seemed happy and the girls were doing well and had lots of friends. Then, on a beautiful, sunny day last summer, my friend's husband drove the family up to a local park for a picnic. He parked in a niec spot, took out a handgun, and shot his daughters and my friend in the head. Then he killed himself. the note he left behind apologized for what he was about to do, and explained that since he coudn't take care of his family properly, and they would never be able to survive without him, it was best if they all died. In his mind, he was being kind. Later, it came out he was Special Forces trained -- black ops -- and had experience killing people. He was also a very in-control kind of guy, and he didn't know how to deal with not being the breadwinner.

 

This experience, the loss of my friend, the chilling, horrible circumstances, make me very VERY wary of anyone who says things like "I'd rather be dead than in debt."

 

Be careful.

[PoshPrincess]

Some people are like alcoholics when it comes to money....they simply can't help themselves no matter what. They will to save and work within a budget but simply aren't able to.

 

I totally agree with Tony. My Dad is the same and has been for all his adult life. My Mum went through hell when married to him. We still have no idea where the money went but he was hopeless. He is obsessed with money even though he never has any.

 

 

Unless he CAN make some major permanent changes in the financial department, you cannot marry him....PERIOD! Your life will be ruined for all time if you do. See if he can get help and if it works...but don't spend years on it. Whatever you do, don't go down the aisle unless he can show you some restrain and conservatism when it comes to handling money.

 

Ditto. I would hate to see anyone go through what my Mum went through. They almost had the house repossessed just because she happened to be a trusting person. Your fiance sounds like he is in denial which is the same as my Dad too.

 

As far as him spending money on a possible addiction is concerned, this may be preferable in some ways to him just being financially irresponsible. At least if he has an addiction, providing he can face up to it then he can get help.

 

Lots of luck. I hope everything works out for you but I beg you do not marry him until you KNOW you can trust him financially 100 per cent!