Why are religious people try converting us

[quankanne]

Should I have said, "Non-Christian"?

 

for heaven's sake, Moose, don't even think of calling him a "heathen." Because that would be politically incorrect. :bunny:

 

"non-beleiver" might be a good, generic term? Though some are offended even by that, because then it takes away their choice of belief system that says there's nothing out there that's running the show. Maybe we ought to put it to a vote. :laugh:

[underpants]

If the all assimilate into sameness then the specific faiths would no longer exist.

 

I like that concept. No more debating who's god or faith is better. Just acceptance and respect.

 

Imagine.

[Moose]

for heaven's sake, Moose, don't even think of calling him a "heathen." Because that would be politically incorrect.

It's a "no win" isn't it?

and a lot of people refuse to question if it threatens their beliefs.

You're kidding right? Christians are called to question their faith. We're told to get into the word of God and get the word of God into us. I will never run out of questions concerning my faith.

You'll see things such as "because god made it that way and humans are incapable of understanding."

Are you claiming to be the only finite being able to understand the infinite?

 

If so, why haven't you helped mankind out with this ability? You would be a frikken' genius....

[CaliGuy]

If you saw a complete stranger step in front of a speeding bus, wouldn't you try and stop him/her somehow? Well, that's all that we're trying to do. But I'm learning when not to waste my time so much anymore.

 

nuff' said....

 

I don't try to convert people. If they are interested and want to learn more I will certainly oblige.

 

Jesus, when giving his instructions to his Disciples on their missionary work said "If you come to a village and the people will not hear your words, wipe the dust from your feet as you leave..."

 

In other words, Jesus knows some people will not listen to your testimony. Don't force it on them. Just walk away and head to the next village

[HokeyReligions]

Having done research on the subject of Theism and Atheism; and having spoken about this in several seminars and churches, I do know a thing or three. I was also a practicing Agnostic for many years - AFTER having decided that I was not really the Atheist I once called myself.

 

Belief or conviction has nothing to do with God. It is a sociology reference more than anything. Human's are capable of changing their minds and/or their feelings and convictions.

 

Had I been a true atheist - and please, use the word 'true' in the context of this discussion. If you don't understand that and just want to play semantics then there is no point to the discussion. Had I been a true atheist I would not have changed my mind about my own beliefs.

 

I participated in a debate last year with someone who claimed Atheism and someone who claimed Christianity and someone who claimed Judism. I took the Agnostic standpoint. Our parameters excluded faith and it was a sociology discussion, not a religious one.

 

Many people approached us afterward to tell us that they did not realize what each of those terms really meant and that prior to the debate their understanding was vastly generalized. No one's belief was changed - to my knowledge - but nearly everyone went away with a better understanding and a further desire to learn more about their own belief systems. Including we debators.

[Phateless]

It's a "no win" isn't it?You're kidding right? Christians are called to question their faith. We're told to get into the word of God and get the word of God into us. I will never run out of questions concerning my faith.Are you claiming to be the only finite being able to understand the infinite?

 

If so, why haven't you helped mankind out with this ability? You would be a frikken' genius....

 

No. I'm merely referring to the impossibility of getting a straight answer when I ask qualifying questions to the religious. I've tried and I get nowhere. They either dodge the question or throw it right back at me, exactly as you just did.

[Moose]

They either dodge the question or throw it right back at me, exactly as you just did.

Oh. I see.

 

So it would be correct to say that you think that Christians aren't capable of being critical thinkers? That seems to be your whole theme since you've came to LS.....

 

I'm thinking that:

 

A. You're not asking the right questions. (or asking the right way)

 

or

 

B. You're offended by the answers.

[Phateless]

Oh. I see.

 

So it would be correct to say that you think that Christians aren't capable of being critical thinkers? That seems to be your whole theme since you've came to LS.....

 

I'm thinking that:

 

A. You're not asking the right questions. (or asking the right way)

 

or

 

B. You're offended by the answers.

 

You're half right. To me, it seems that after a certain point people intentionally switch off their critical thinking skills so that they can continue to believe in their religion, where critical thinking would naturally cause doubt to certain beliefs. Choosing not to think critically, yes, I do find offensive. Once you cross that threshold, there are all sorts of beliefs that people support simply because "the bible says it's wrong." In certain cases, I am offended by that.

 

Gay marriage, for example. If two people are in love, why not? I think certain people are against based on nothing else than the text found in a 2000 year old book. The funny things is that homosexuality occurs in the exact same percentages in nature as in humanity, so how is it unnatural?

 

Please give me an example of "the right questions?" I'm not really sure what that means.

 

I do have some friends who are religious yet still think critically. In fact, one of my best friends is a strong believer and also one of the sharpest critical thinkers I know. I am endlessly impressed when I talk to her. HOWEVER... she does not follow the bible to a T, BECAUSE her own judgment comes into play. You see what I mean? She believes in God, but she uses her own judgment of right and wrong before she consults the bible.

 

I have always considered myself a good and moral person, and I base all my values on empathy, and putting myself in the same position, not the written word of someone else.

 

At certain times, there is a conflict between what the bible might say and what your own critical thinking or judgment tells you. What to do? To which do you owe the greater allegiance?

 

Do you see where I'm going with this?

[Phateless]

The guy who tries not to enjoy sex and uses it only for procreation is another example. That just seems plain ridiculous to me. I guess it's his prerogative... Personally, I question everything.

 

"True knowledge emerges through dialog and SYSTEMATIC QUESTIONING for the abandonment of uncritical claims to knowledge." --Socrates' definition of knowledge.

[disgracian]

And it's not so much that you, "dismiss" my God, it's just that you don't even know Him, yet your claims and accusations are such that you proclaim His non-existance as fact.

I am as certain of the Bible-god's non-existence as you are certain of his existence. If you find that offensive then tough.

 

Cheers,

D.

[CaliGuy]

I am as certain of the Bible-god's non-existence as you are certain of his existence. If you find that offensive then tough.

 

Cheers,

D.

 

 

You are, eh?

 

Out of curiosity, how much of the knowledge contained in the Universe does man have command of? 100%? 50%, 10%, 0.01%?

 

Think about your answer deeply before you reply.

[disgracian]

for heaven's sake, Moose, don't even think of calling him a "heathen." Because that would be politically incorrect. :bunny:

I don't mind being called a heathen. The etymology of the word fits once you strip away the pejorative usage.

"non-beleiver" might be a good, generic term?

"Non-believer" isn't offensive to me, it's just not accurate. I have my own beliefs, they just don't involve traditional religions or theological deities. Afterall, from my own perspective you and Moose are non-believers too.

 

Cheers,

D.

[CaliGuy]

The guy who tries not to enjoy sex and uses it only for procreation is another example. That just seems plain ridiculous to me. I guess it's his prerogative... Personally, I question everything.

 

On the contrary, there are many written examples in the bible that sex was created for the enjoyment of married couples. No where in the bible does it say that sex for married couples is only for procreation.

 

"True knowledge emerges through dialog and SYSTEMATIC QUESTIONING for the abandonment of uncritical claims to knowledge." --Socrates' definition of knowledge.

 

When you find someone on this planet that has absolute and true knowledge let me know...

 

Otherwise, it's all pretty much questionning and very little answers. Only God has all the answers.

 

Cheers.

[disgracian]

Out of curiosity, how much of the knowledge contained in the Universe does man have command of? 100%? 50%, 10%, 0.01%?

The knife you wield cuts both ways. Also, I am not referring to some vague far-away deity that cannot be proven nor disproven. I'm talking about the god of the Bible, the one who spends vastly more time creating one tiny planet than the rest of the universe put together, the one who does not play favourites yet has a Chosen People that he used to assist in committing genocide, the one who creates Hell for his children, who scorns critical thinking and demands sheeplike loyalty and blind faith.

 

I am not against the idea of god in general. In fact I think the possibility of such a being existing is not beyond the realms of probability. But I imagine such a being to be enlightened, and above all sane. The god of the Bible, in my mind, is neither. It is a bad parody of the divine, dreamed up by a primitive and violent Middle-Eastern tribe and given a face-lift a few thousand years later.

 

Cheers,

D.

[quankanne]

Afterall, from my own perspective you and Moose are non-believers too.

 

that's exactly the point I'm trying to make, because we all possess a belief system, even if it's to reject what others embrace. Thanks for spelling it out for all, d. Even if you are a self-professed heathen! :laugh:

 

just kidding about that last part

 

o me, it seems that after a certain point people intentionally switch off their critical thinking skills so that they can continue to believe in their religion, where critical thinking would naturally cause doubt to certain beliefs. Choosing not to think critically, yes, I do find offensive. Once you cross that threshold, there are all sorts of beliefs that people support simply because "the bible says it's wrong." In certain cases, I am offended by that.

 

so really, it's dull-minded boobs who get your goat, not necessarily people who profess a spiritual belief? Because I'm having a hard time buying into the idea that in order to practice your faith, you must put your brain aside. There's a lot of stuff that goes into the catechism (speaking from the Catholic standpoint), and you've got to be somewhat educated to get through what the church teachers have put out there. Me? I like it boiled down to bare bones of fact, and so far, everything I've found with Catholic tenets have been pretty straight. If I want to brainiac it out, well, there's reams of material written by church doctors and saints and theologians and popes to get into. And these folks are not idiots

[Phateless]

so really, it's dull-minded boobs who get your goat, not necessarily people who profess a spiritual belief? Because I'm having a hard time buying into the idea that in order to practice your faith, you must put your brain aside. There's a lot of stuff that goes into the catechism (speaking from the Catholic standpoint), and you've got to be somewhat educated to get through what the church teachers have put out there. Me? I like it boiled down to bare bones of fact, and so far, everything I've found with Catholic tenets have been pretty straight. If I want to brainiac it out, well, there's reams of material written by church doctors and saints and theologians and popes to get into. And these folks are not idiots

 

You're pretty much right... like I said there are educated people who choose to believe, but they think for themselves and don't follow the book to the letter. Professing a spiritual belief does not in any way offend me, it's when people take it to extreme that I get weirded out.

 

I do think to be a religious extremist one must put their brain aside.

 

Besides, there's a difference between intelligence and regurgitation/studying.

[shadowofman]

Because I'm having a hard time buying into the idea that in order to practice your faith, you must put your brain aside.

 

We all know that horses can't fly. That Chris Angel is not really making things disappear. And that virgins don't get pregnant.

 

Plateless' theme is a great one.

 

If you do believe any of these things, then you are choosing to deny reason. The one thing that religions all have in common is the idea of "after-life". This concept is beyond reason and usually the first lie that spawns more, and more lies. Wishful thinking; a comforting thought, yes! But it requires that you ignore what reason, logic, and critical thinking would tell you.

 

There is no room or reason for a concept such as a spirit or soul. We know that the brain and like chemisty control and make the being. We know that personality, memory, and all the things that make you-you are symptoms of electrical and chemical reactions in your brain. To believe otherwise is to be ignorant of the facts. And for any literate person who has attended even a public school in the western world to be ignorant of these facts is to conciously switch off their critical thinking skills.

 

We all know that you have these critial thinking skills for 99.999999% of everything you see and do. It's just a select few concepts where you are more concerned with protecting your established faiths that you ignore them. Any Christian will tell you that horses can't fly, and you would be correct. But a Muslim person displays this exact trait of turning off critical thinking in an effort to justify their faith that Mohhamad flew to heaven on a magically horse.

[shadowofman]

Oh, I really, really prefer to be called an Infidel. Capital "I" please.

I am an agnostic, strong atheist.

Meaning that I could never know anything for sure (agnostic), but I'm almost certain that there is no god (strong atheist).

 

I actually met a gnostic theist for the first time recently. Now thats a bold claim.

[Phateless]

We all know that horses can't fly. That Chris Angel is not really making things disappear. And that virgins don't get pregnant.

 

Plateless' theme is a great one.

 

If you do believe any of these things, then you are choosing to deny reason. The one thing that religions all have in common is the idea of "after-life". This concept is beyond reason and usually the first lie that spawns more, and more lies. Wishful thinking; a comforting thought, yes! But it requires that you ignore what reason, logic, and critical thinking would tell you.

 

There is no room or reason for a concept such as a spirit or soul. We know that the brain and like chemisty control and make the being. We know that personality, memory, and all the things that make you-you are symptoms of electrical and chemical reactions in your brain. To believe otherwise is to be ignorant of the facts. And for any literate person who has attended even a public school in the western world to be ignorant of these facts is to conciously switch off their critical thinking skills.

 

We all know that you have these critial thinking skills for 99.999999% of everything you see and do. It's just a select few concepts where you are more concerned with protecting your established faiths that you ignore them. Any Christian will tell you that horses can't fly, and you would be correct. But a Muslim person displays this exact trait of turning off critical thinking in an effort to justify their faith that Mohhamad flew to heaven on a magically horse.

 

haha, nicely put! This is exactly what I was trying to say. Now it will be interesting to see how people respond and attempt to rebut what you have just said. They will either dodge the question or, offended, throw it back at you somehow.

[quankanne]

I do think to be a religious extremist one must put their brain aside.

 

well, to be any sort of extremist, one must cut off all other interests to focus on that one particular thing, be it religion, food, sports, etc. So yeah, I follow what you're saying.

 

We all know that horses can't fly. theoretically, they can purchase a plane ticket just like anyone else

 

Chris Angel is not really making things disappear. ah, but he does a fantastic job of making the mind break out of the mold when it comes to expecting the obvious.

 

And that virgins don't get pregnant. um, yes they do, from unprotected sex!!!

 

as far as the case of the Blessed Mother impregnated with the son of God, I remember reading something that in very rare instances, a woman actually can become pregnant without a spermie in the equation, but that the child will always be a female, because basically, the mother's genes replicate itself. Apply that fluke of science to the BVM's case, the miracle would then be that she had a boy child.

 

all these "answers" to what you've proposed are meant to demonstrate that an answer is there when you think outside the box ... and upholding a belief in God is definitely thinking outside the accepted box

Edited December 31, 2007 by quankanne

[quankanne]

Oh, I really, really prefer to be called an Infidel. Capital "I" please.

 

well, that *does* sound much better than "heathen," with all it's negative connotations! :bunny:

[Phateless]

I do think to be a religious extremist one must put their brain aside.

 

well, to be any sort of extremist, one must cut off all other interests to focus on that one particular thing, be it religion, food, sports, etc. So yeah, I follow what you're saying.

 

We all know that horses can't fly. theoretically, they can purchase a plane ticket just like anyone else

 

Chris Angel is not really making things disappear. ah, but he does a fantastic job of making the mind break out of the mold when it comes to expecting the obvious.

 

And that virgins don't get pregnant. um, yes they do, from unprotected sex!!!

 

as far as the case of the Blessed Mother impregnated with the son of God, I remember reading something that in very rare instances, a woman actually can become pregnant without a spermie in the equation, but that the child will always be a female, because basically, the mother's genes replicate itself. Apply that fluke of science to the BVM's case, the miracle would then be that she had a boy child.

 

all these "answers" to what you've proposed are meant to demonstrate that an answer is there when you think outside the box ... and upholding a belief in God is definitely thinking outside the accepted box

 

Each one of your explanations is plausible, yet only furthers our point that these phenomena were caused by something logical and NOT by the interference of god. You see what I'm saying? You yourself are applying exactly the critical thinking skills that cause us to doubt religion. Common sense tells you that these things are impossible.

[Moose]

haha, nicely put! This is exactly what I was trying to say. Now it will be interesting to see how people respond and attempt to rebut what you have just said. They will either dodge the question or, offended, throw it back at you somehow.

What question? There isn't a question anywhere in that post. Just a bunch of nonsense.

 

Reason has everything to do with why I believe. And no, I don't switch off my brain to critical thinking when it comes to defending my faith.......in fact it lights it up like a Christmas tree!!

 

No I don't follow the Bible to the letter, BUT NOONE has or CAN except Christ Himself.

 

Maybe it's time that you boys get boned up on Scripture and learn a few things before you make these heinous claims.

 

Ah.....screw it....without the Holy Spirit you wouldn't understand anyways.....(wipes dust off feet)

[Geishawhelk]

Moose..... Coffee....??

[Phateless]

What question? There isn't a question anywhere in that post. Just a bunch of nonsense.

 

Reason has everything to do with why I believe. And no, I don't switch off my brain to critical thinking when it comes to defending my faith.......in fact it lights it up like a Christmas tree!!

 

No I don't follow the Bible to the letter, BUT NOONE has or CAN except Christ Himself.

 

Maybe it's time that you boys get boned up on Scripture and learn a few things before you make these heinous claims.

 

Ah.....screw it....without the Holy Spirit you wouldn't understand anyways.....(wipes dust off feet)

 

There is no nonsense anywhere in that post. It's all SIMPLE logic. The question is how do you explain the unexplainable without a cop-out "god" answer? It's all fairy tales... You might as well tell me Lord of the Rings is true.

 

As far as I'm concerned, the burden of proof is on the believer because we live in a empiricist society.