LONG POST - Is it worth having kids?

[Geishawhelk]

permit me to continue...

I speak from experience as the eldest of four kids whose mum left to be with another man - and saw the devastation it caused my dad. I don't condemn my mother for leaving my father - it was the right thing for her to do. But having to witness his breakdown made me very defensive of him and very very bitter toward her. (I am now 42 and have had a lot of support and counselling for this)

Maybe in time, my daughters too will consider this in a different light. However, both my ex- and I have offered them the possibility of Counselling, and they both treated the suggestion with derision and disdain. if anyone needs their head examined, my daughter ventured, it is mamma...

 

In addition to you finding a new love, your faith also became a big part of your life. Perhaps your girls interpret this as you choosing to leave them behind? I am only second-guessing here and may be way off!!

No, I can see why you would say this.... but my 'faith' as you wonderfully put it, was strong, alive and kicking when I was with them... they knew all about my spiritual persuasion. My eldest even attended a couple of lectures from Lamas touring Europe giving talks...

 

Did you ever have the opportunity to speak with them frankly about how you still loved them etc after you left? I kind of get the impression you didn't but again may be wrong

 

Oh boy, have I ever tried... of course having recently visited France, I had the perfect opportunity to speak with them and to try at least to further a reconciliation, and venture to establish a connection... I sound like a great whinger, I really do...

Ok, suffice to say, it was no-go. Couldn't get past the 'how do you do, nice to meet you' level.

They talk to me the same way they might talk to a customer, say, if they were serving in a department store... polite but distant.

I have been mindful of all the annual special occasions, and sent gifts, cards and trinkets as and when the time came.

I have never received acknowledgement from the youngest, of anything. The eldest has always responded for them both, with a polite thank you and a 'how's the weather?' kind of card...

Please believe me, this is not a poor me response... self-pity is not a bag I carry easily, let alone at all. Do I cry? Yes, I do. copiously at times. When we were driving back up through France, I burst into tears because it suddenly occurred to me that I had no concrete reason to ever have to return to France for any business of any kind. So perhaps this would be the last time in a long time I would ever see my girls...My girls are more than ample reason for me to drop every and any thing, this is so, it goes without saying. What I mean was that other than them, I have no ties there any longer. And if they choose - as they have done thus far - to keep contact to a minimum, I despair...

But I also know that within Life there is Suffering.

 

I guess what I am trying to say is that maybe if you still had the strong loving bond with your girls you would not be posing the question you did initially? Perhaps you ask the question because you are hurting from their withdrawal from your life - rather than because you truly believe this?

No, I have thought this way for some considerable time,...but perhaps the intensity of the question is greater.

There is no doubt in my mind that this is partly so, yes.

I might have thought the question but never asked it.

This perhaps drove me to put it to open discussion. I think there is definitely something there... of course... there must be....

Mind is a fickle instrument...it hides things at will, conceals and obscures...

We are driven by both the obvious and the subtle....

I hope you appreciate that I am just trying to put a different perspective on things and not to criticise or condemn your beliefs in any way!

I fully appreciate your input.

More perhaps, than you realise. More perhaps, than I did....

 

 

I hope that you can find a way to meet with your girls some day - and rekindle what you had. Surely if the relationship was so strong. with time and work it could be resurrected? Your girls must miss that relationship too? I say that as a daughter who has lost that connection with her mother.

 

I wish you luck and love:)

 

I'm sorry to hear that, truly I am...

I live in hope for my relationship with my daughters to be whole again. I would venture to pray the same for you. If such a thing is appropriate.

[miss1979]

Honestly, I don't think that there is a good reason to have kids. I think it's just one of the those innate biological responses that for all our scientific study and knowledge we can't take out of our genetic make up. In a biological sense it is our duty to have children to keep the human race going.

 

I'm a single parent with two kids. I can't say that I wouldn't have my kids but I can say I would have waited a few more years. I just feel a bit more sane now than I did five years ago. I thought about having kids and was almost of the verge of not wanting any when I got to thinking about all the terrible things in the world. Poverty, war, disease, global warming, etc. I felt like having a child in a world like this would be about the same as just dropping the kid in the middle of a dog fight and letting it fend for itself.

 

It really does seem quite unfair that this is the world that we were handed and will turn over to our kids. On the same token it's part of life.

 

I have kids now and not having them is no longer an option. I realized that they are my living picture books, my history teachers. Years from now when they are raising their own kids or doing something with themselves; it will be the values and knowledge I instilled in them as children. They are the record of who I am and they'll pass that down for generations to come. My name may be forgotten over the years but traditions, manners, and kindness will live on.

[Geishawhelk]

I am so grateful to each and every person who has contributed so far, and who I hope will continue to contribute.

It has given me one definitive, inarguable answer: That there is no answer.

There are many opinions, and I have enjoyed the discussion very much.

I have quite openly tried to answer all questions relating to my own personal situation as honestly as possible, and I hope this has helped to expand the discussion, rather than narrow it down to any perceived expression of 'sour grapes'. I can assure you that was not the original intention.

 

Thanks all....

 

Please, let's carry on.....

[OldEurope]

This original poster, if I may say so, is oozing venom and bitterness. The question was posted in the context of her having lost contact with her daughters. Therefore it is natural for the rest of us to see cynicism, and not mere intellectual curiosity/debate interest motivating the question.

 

I am always surprised how the people who are angry and upset about something want to impose on the world an iron-clad view stemming from such anger as if it were in and as of itself a legitimate foundation of a well-thought out argument or philosophy.

 

The readers here are being "dared" to answer, and Geisha is going to shoot you down if she does not agree. At least I got this impression from the first page of responses.

 

All this stuff about "no more housing" and global warming and environmental disaster is just so much nonsense as an excuse not to have children. If human beings were not on the planet to tend to the earth there would be far more devastation (rampant disease, plagues, rabies, wild, undomesticated animals, etc). And when disasters do happen (God made, not man made) such as a tsunami or earthquake, who is there to clean up the mess...Good old homo sapiens, that is right. As for housing and the rest, presumably people die too, right? Housing (in Western societies) can and should stay stable. What Europe might curtail is immigration--that is another topic however.

 

I believe man is a work of art. Not all, but enough. He is a fascinating creature who can send man to space and can produce gorgeous statues out of a block of marble. He can write books and invent technology that allows people to type on a screen and have their words mysteriously sent to possibly millions of other persons. What is ruining "Man" today is an utter utter lack of appreciation for what history and culture and wars and freedom have provided him (modern man) and he repeats the same mistakes (in politics, and, yes, with the environment for example) when he should be learning from wisdom and science. But there are enough excellent people around pointing this out. These are the Do-ers. They are the most valuable.

 

I am all for children. I do not have them yet, but I would like two. I know my limits, I waited to get to a point where there is financial stability in my life, and I have sought to sort out my personality to know where the glitches, gaps, insecurites etc etc are so that I can raise another human being (or two) to the best of my ability. And I also sought the right partner.

 

The reason to have children is to honor the rewards of human love--human love being the supreme achievement of the planet. Nothing is more beautiful. I know it gets abused, exploited, disappointed, burned, exhausted, but human love exists and it should be sought after and it should be prized. A child, in my view, expresses this love, being--ideally-- the creation of sexual passion and emotional bonding between two adults.

 

There is also, yes, the desire to keep the race moving along and to do so, as another poster said, by leaving one's own signature on the planet. The perpetuation of a kind of immortality. I dream of looking into the eyes of my child and seeing this fascinating product of nature ready to be cast off on his own adventure with a part of me with him.

 

Of course disaster happens--I know this first hand. But beauty also happens, wonderful experiences also happen, and there is something hugely mature about producing a human being with whom one has an unbreakable blood relationship. My word, it is incredible in fact.

 

NOt everyone who has children wishes, at the end of the day, they did not "if to do it all over again". I know some people here who would have liked more.

 

I find this a sad, sad post by an unhappy original poster. And I hope the people posting here get busy like bunnies at some point and just produce some artists, geniuses, captains of industry, or good old fashioned salt of the earth and let the tears and spitefulness roll off their backs with the laughter. I know I know, I haven't had kids. But I have lost siblings and that devastation among all else makes me appreciate the importance of having human life of one's own around all the more.

 

xo

OE

[Geishawhelk]

:laugh:

 

Did you read the post preceeding yours?

[OldEurope]

But Geisha, your saying so is in post no. 130--a bit late in the game. And you most definately came across as "sour grapes", intended or not.

 

 

OE

[Geishawhelk]

This original poster, if I may say so, is oozing venom and bitterness. The question was posted in the context of her having lost contact with her daughters. Therefore it is natural for the rest of us to see cynicism, and not mere intellectual curiosity/debate interest motivating the question.

 

I am always surprised how the people who are angry and upset about something want to impose on the world an iron-clad view stemming from such anger as if it were in and as of itself a legitimate foundation of a well-thought out argument or philosophy.

 

You know I really want to thank you for coming in with this perception, but if you but knew me - really knew me - you'd know this is about as far from the truth as you could get!

Yes, bang-on, I am very saddened by it. I do feel regret and upset at what happened. But herein lies the problem:

One: you are not face to face with me - nor I with you - so it's really difficult to "judge" the tone, inflection, mood or intention of the words you see here. I am really an extremely happy person. I truly, honestly don't feel bitterness, rancour anger or hostility about this. Truly....

Two: I also know even as I write, you only have my word for it. And the printed one at that..!!

 

The readers here are being "dared" to answer, and Geisha is going to shoot you down if she does not agree. At least I got this impression from the first page of responses.

 

It's a long thread.... I don't know if you've managed to read it all the way through, but I received some really lucid and logical legitimate and reasonable responses too.... It's not all bad. I don't think really, I have shot anyone down... not without some good counter-argument....

 

All this stuff about "no more housing" and global warming and environmental disaster is just so much nonsense as an excuse not to have children. If human beings were not on the planet to tend to the earth there would be far more devastation (rampant disease, plagues, rabies, wild, undomesticated animals, etc). And when disasters do happen (God made, not man made) such as a tsunami or earthquake, who is there to clean up the mess...Good old homo sapiens, that is right.

 

If humans were not on the planet.... what proof do you have that any of this would be necessary, exactly?

Nature has a wonderful way of balancing herself out. It is through the persistent and continuous interference with Nature, that Man has largely been the origin of these problems....! A wild animal is undomesticated, by definition... All the wild animals we've interfered with are suffering as a result! If there were no human beings and there were tsunamis and earthquakes... who'd notice? They'd take care of themselves.... How do you think the earth's land masses formed as they did?

 

As for housing and the rest, presumably people die too, right? Housing (in Western societies) can and should stay stable. What Europe might curtail is immigration--that is another topic however.

 

I have no idea what you mean here... Sorry... Really I don't. Could you clarify?

 

I believe man is a work of art. Not all, but enough. He is a fascinating creature who can send man to space and can produce gorgeous statues out of a block of marble. He can write books and invent technology that allows people to type on a screen and have their words mysteriously sent to possibly millions of other persons. What is ruining "Man" today is an utter utter lack of appreciation for what history and culture and wars and freedom have provided him (modern man) and he repeats the same mistakes (in politics, and, yes, with the environment for example) when he should be learning from wisdom and science. But there are enough excellent people around pointing this out. These are the Do-ers. They are the most valuable.

 

THis is not the topic under discussion. We're not here to discuss man as a self-proclaimed work of art. he isn't he has arrogantly taken the place at the top of the food chain, and assumes that such a position accords him certain privileges. It doesn't. He thinks it makes him cleverer. It doesn't. More "intelligent", perhaps. That's a moot point. But cleverer? Nope.

 

I am all for children. I do not have them yet, but I would like two. I know my limits, I waited to get to a point where there is financial stability in my life, and I have sought to sort out my personality to know where the glitches, gaps, insecurites etc etc are so that I can raise another human being (or two) to the best of my ability. And I also sought the right partner

.

 

if you wait for all this to happen, trust me. You'll never have kids.

The moment you have financial stability, having children will de-stabilize it. Sorting out your personality is something you will never do to your total satisfaction. And sometimes, having kids can throw you right back to square one. And "the right partner"? Everyone marries the right partner! Unfortunately, about 50% divorce the right partner too....

 

The reason to have children is to honor the rewards of human love--human love being the supreme achievement of the planet. Nothing is more beautiful. I know it gets abused, exploited, disappointed, burned, exhausted, but human love exists and it should be sought after and it should be prized. A child, in my view, expresses this love, being--ideally-- the creation of sexual passion and emotional bonding between two adults.

Please - please remember that when it wakes you three or four times a night with teething problems, wets the bed because it doesn't enjoy school, starts smoking at aged 13 because all their friends do, and stays out until 3:00am with their friends, and you're frantic...

 

I'm not saying all these things will definitely happen. They probably won't. But if they do... remember this.

 

There is also, yes, the desire to keep the race moving along and to do so, as another poster said, by leaving one's own signature on the planet. The perpetuation of a kind of immortality. I dream of looking into the eyes of my child and seeing this fascinating product of nature ready to be cast off on his own adventure with a part of me with him.

 

THis is just egotism and transferring your desires onto your child. Your child is not you. it doesn't even 'belong' to you. You create a life for whom you are responsible until the age of maturity. But however much you'd like to see a part of you with him, you would be a fairer parent if you give them the complete liberty to spread their wings with no ties or imagined "obligations"....

 

Of course disaster happens--I know this first hand. But beauty also happens, wonderful experiences also happen, and there is something hugely mature about producing a human being with whom one has an unbreakable blood relationship. My word, it is incredible in fact.

 

NOt everyone who has children wishes, at the end of the day, they did not "if to do it all over again". I know some people here who would have liked more.

 

Equally there are those who feel completely fulfilled and serene without a child. so this is subjective.

 

I find this a sad, sad post by an unhappy original poster. And I hope the people posting here get busy like bunnies at some point and just produce some artists, geniuses, captains of industry, or good old fashioned salt of the earth and let the tears and spitefulness roll off their backs with the laughter. I know I know, I haven't had kids. But I have lost siblings and that devastation among all else makes me appreciate the importance of having human life of one's own around all the more

.

 

Doubtless, many will. But how would you stop the irresponsible members of society from procreating one, two three different children, from different fathers and relying on the state for housing and hand-outs? Trust me, they exist. I've met them. Too many times. You have a wonderful ideal, and I hope you fulfil your dreams. but remember there is always the other side of the coin.

I've lost people in my life too.

So what does that mean?

The human life of one's own, is an inaccurate premise.

as I said, you can love them, but you can't have them.

 

 

Thanks for posting.

Interesting talking to you, and points to ponder, no?

Edited February 29, 2008 by Geishawhelk

[OldEurope]

Geisha, you come across even more vindictive in this last response than in your first posting.

 

You seem, first of all , to despise human life. Men make oil spills, so everyone--abort! This seems to be the message underneath the rancor.

 

My point about the superiority of man is the main point in all of what I say here. Because, there is, to my mind, a reason why the human race should continue. He, man, is capable of a greatness that is unusual in the universe. It is because he is not only an amazing rational "animal", if you will, but because, speaking as a Christian, he has an element of the divine in him as well. He is not merely "more intelligent". If he were only that he would not be as complex as he is. He would be instead just a very efficient robot. He is not, he is far more. Man has an emotional and psychological make up like no other creature. His "intelligence" is only part of what distinguishes him. It is for this uniqueness that the race--the human race--pushes forward and should. To perpetuate this very unique presence on earth, among other reasons I already stated--foremost of which is the power of human love.

 

My point about the housing and the rest--I am sorry if you did not understand it as it could not have been more clear. In your original post you said that there was no reason or no place for any more population because places to live were running out; the environment was going downhill, etc etc etc. I said that none of this has anything to do with the argument about whether or not to perpetuate the human race. First of all, these are matters of bad policies, not newly minted humans in fresh diapers who might make a difference. By your reasoning, humans should have stopped reproducing, oh, say, in the 1900s, for example, before there was penicillin. Or say, in the 1930s before the polio vaccine. Or how about just having ended it in the Middle Ages before the Black Plague was eradicated?

 

We are all guilty in the ills of society or in the environment. Surely you take planes, drive a car, run electricity in your house. These incredible inventions of human intelligence come at a price--they've also made for a world where you can go to France if you want, write on Loveshack if you want, or go to a store and buy a book on Buddhism which was printed on dead trees, if you want.

 

And you sure as heck like the fact that man domesticated wild animals--dogs and horses were once wild--or your own life as that of your children would be endangered at every turn.

 

In your world, we'd just turn the whole enterprise over to the worms and hyenas and poison mushrooms. Hell, let's all go back to the Cave and punch each other with clubs so we don't have to mess things up so.

 

Secondly, this doom and gloom about the world imploding is misplaced. Human society may be growing, but human generations die out, and the last time I looked there were many a fine house here in northern Italy for sale and plenty of chic apartments too in Milan:laugh:

 

Sorry I cannot answer for Third World type problems such as overcrowding Bangledesh et al, But maybe if humans were not treated as lepers to abuse by that country's endlessly corrupt governments, it might, as a start, help the problem of how the population there is organized and cared for. No reason to tell Moms on this side of civilization though to give up their bundles of joy.

 

(On the side, I mentioned immigration being a problem in Europe in terms of this theme of crowding, environmental damage and the rest. Yes it is. Europe is on- overload and cannot handle anymore swelling ghettos with irate immigrants. This is tangential issue but still germaine to the topic at hand)

 

 

As to your point about my "planning" the right time to have a child, thus far I have succeeded. I did "wait" to accumulate certain priorities of an individual nature and now I have the financial independence, professional accomplishments under my belt, and a superior mate at my side to go on to the next chapter. I took some years to sort through a previous failed relationship and some other issues, before getting to this point. I feel that the way is somewhat "cleared" to have children.

 

xo

OE

[mental_traveller]

I personally never want to have children. However, I would say the reason to have them is that they contribute to the world. Unless you think that the average person has a negative value and makes the world, overall, a worse place, then it logically follows that having a kid is a good thing for society. IMO only extreme misanthropes and nihilists think that the world would be better off if 1 John or Jane Doe was vaporized overnight, thus having a kid who will eventually become a John or Jane Doe is, on balance, a good thing.

 

Besides, who else is going to do my cleaning, take out my trash, give me taxi rides back from the pub, make music and books for me, and provide me with fresh food every day? Other members of the human race, all of whom were at one point mewling, ugly, noisy, annoying little brats.

[Geishawhelk]

Geisha, you come across even more vindictive in this last response than in your first posting.

 

How? Why?

 

You seem, first of all , to despise human life. Men make oil spills, so everyone--abort! This seems to be the message underneath the rancor.

I'm really sorry, OE, but I really fear you are reading things in my posts which do not exist. Whereon earth do I give the impression that I despise human Life...?!

I never mentioned oil spills and aborting as a result of it... I think you're getting your wires crossed... You are jumping to conclusions and putting words into my mouth.

I personally do not support abortion.

 

 

My point about the superiority of man is the main point in all of what I say here. Because, there is, to my mind, a reason why the human race should continue. He, man, is capable of a greatness that is unusual in the universe.

Aren't you also ignoring that he is perpetually capable of mindless destruction, wanton vandalism and a blatant disregard for Human Life? Don't dress up mankind through rose-tinted spectacles... tell me also the things he is disgustingly guilty of, and the lessons he refuses to learn. Be a realist.

 

It is because he is not only an amazing rational "animal", if you will, but because, speaking as a Christian, he has an element of the divine in him as well.

And an element of the satanic.

 

He is not merely "more intelligent". If he were only that he would not be as complex as he is. He would be instead just a very efficient robot. He is not, he is far more. Man has an emotional and psychological make up like no other creature. His "intelligence" is only part of what distinguishes him. It is for this uniqueness that the race--the human race--pushes forward and should. To perpetuate this very unique presence on earth, among other reasons I already stated--foremost of which is the power of human love

.

 

Agreed and agreed and agreed. But not at the expense or sacrifice of other elements of Life that have as much right to an unthreatened existence as humans have. remember God created them first, and brought Man in to tend and care for them. Not to use and abuse them at will, to the point of wanton destruction and cruelty.

 

My point about the housing and the rest--I am sorry if you did not understand it as it could not have been more clear. In your original post you said that there was no reason or no place for any more population because places to live were running out; the environment was going downhill, etc etc etc. I said that none of this has anything to do with the argument about whether or not to perpetuate the human race.

 

Why not? The more people we have, the more room we need to live. The more room we need to live, the more of the planet has to give way to housing and structural construction.

How has this got nothing to do with the original discussion?

 

First of all, these are matters of bad policies, not newly minted humans in fresh diapers who might make a difference.

 

Bad policies?

Really?

What 'good policies would you implement then?

 

By your reasoning, humans should have stopped reproducing, oh, say, in the 1900s, for example, before there was penicillin. Or say, in the 1930s before the polio vaccine. Or how about just having ended it in the Middle Ages before the Black Plague was eradicated?

 

By my reasoning?

What reasoning?

What has sickness got to do with an expanding population taking up more and more room on Earth?

Please quote.

 

We are all guilty in the ills of society or in the environment. Surely you take planes, drive a car, run electricity in your house. These incredible inventions of human intelligence come at a price--they've also made for a world where you can go to France if you want, write on Loveshack if you want, or go to a store and buy a book on Buddhism which was printed on dead trees, if you want.

 

I don't own a car.

I don't buy books, unless they're on recycled paper. My rubbish is collected on average once a month, because I re-cycle everything. I use my own linen bags, and bags I have made from other recycled materials. I buy second-hand clothes, mostly, from charity shops.

I do all I can to lessen the impact I have on the environment.

Guilty of ills we all are, for sure. But lessen the load we all could.

And you sure as heck like the fact that man domesticated wild animals--dogs and horses were once wild--or your own life as that of your children would be endangered at every turn.

 

Pardon?

How so?

In your world, we'd just turn the whole enterprise over to the worms and hyenas and poison mushrooms. Hell, let's all go back to the Cave and punch each other with clubs so we don't have to mess things up so.

 

HEAR HEAR!!

 

Secondly, this doom and gloom about the world imploding is misplaced. Human society may be growing, but human generations die out, and the last time I looked there were many a fine house here in northern Italy for sale and plenty of chic apartments too in Milan:laugh:

Human generations are dying out at a much slower rate... because we have invented penicillin, and eradicated polio and the Black death. We also live longer, and suffer from fewer illnesses than even 50 years ago. Diet is better, living conditions are better, and the environment is cleaner. human generations aren't dying fast enough.

Ask all the patients desperate for transplants....

 

Sorry I cannot answer for Third World type problems such as overcrowding Bangledesh et al, But maybe if humans were not treated as lepers to abuse by that country's endlessly corrupt governments, it might, as a start, help the problem of how the population there is organized and cared for. No reason to tell Moms on this side of civilization though to give up their bundles of joy.

I'm so sorry, but this point is both crass and uneducated. As a less corrupt element, if we in the so-called affluent and caring West, were to provide proper care, medical assistance and financial support for these countries, (because we can!) they wouldn't be suffering as they are...

Did you know that the smallest proportion of the world Powers hold the largest proportion of the world's wealth?

 

http://www.iariw.org/papers/2006/davies.pdf

 

 

(On the side, I mentioned immigration being a problem in Europe in terms of this theme of crowding, environmental damage and the rest. Yes it is. Europe is on- overload and cannot handle anymore swelling ghettos with irate immigrants. This is tangential issue but still germaine to the topic at hand)

This is an unintelligent argument and is smoke and mirrors.

Why do you think we have such an influx of immigration?

because Life is easier in Europe than it is in their own countries. Both for legal and illegal reasons. But people are still people wherever they live. And simply because they come to Europe, they don't stop having children. hence the greater dange of overcrowding...

I'm not sure what point you're making here... Unless, you actually happen to agree with me....?

 

As to your point about my "planning" the right time to have a child, thus far I have succeeded. I did "wait" to accumulate certain priorities of an individual nature and now I have the financial independence, professional accomplishments under my belt, and a superior mate at my side to go on to the next chapter. I took some years to sort through a previous failed relationship and some other issues, before getting to this point. I feel that the way is somewhat "cleared" to have children

.

 

well I'm very happy for you.

Financially you may be prepared to have children. And that's all well and good. For Now.

However, remember that each child will cost you in the region of £180,000 by the time they reach maturity.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/cost-of-bringing-up-a-child-rises-to-163180000-423697.html

 

And if you have had a failed relationship (and let's face it, it's a rarity to find someone who hasn't!) then you are of course fully prepared for the fact that this one holds no guarantees either....

 

"Superior" mate... to whom, exactly?

To me...?

Or to you?

or to other women?

Isn't that a bit insulting to all the ones you must therefore by definition, find 'inferior'....?

 

From a purely personal point of view, if I discovered my partner referred to me as a 'superior mate'... I'd find it mildly patronising.

Edited February 29, 2008 by Geishawhelk

[older_no_wiser]

Ahh, I am a weak human. I have had wine - so forgive me if I only focus on one small part.

 

Geisha, you use your brain and logic to the exclusion of your heart. Life is not like that. Relationships are not like that. And your daughters do not function thus.

 

I digress! You have accused OE of being insulting and patronising. Yet you yourself describe as "irresponisble" mothers who might have two or three children by different fathers. Why are they irresponsible? Why are they more irresponsible than you? You should have had everything going for you. A supposedly stable partnership, presumably financial stability and two daughters. Yet your daughters have chosen to reject you. What of a woman who happens to have two daughters by two different fathers but who loves and adores her children, is loved and adored by those children in turn and never, ever suffers the rift that you have?

 

Which is irresponsible? The one who had the odds stacked in their favour and blew it or the one who had considerably less favourbale odds but continues to maintain close bonds with her offspring? yet to read your post, a woman breeding with more than one man is automatically, "irresponsible"!

 

I suggest you are guilty of being at least as eqaully patronising in your judgement calls.

[Geishawhelk]

you yourself describe as "irresponisble" mothers who might have two or three children by different fathers. Why are they irresponsible? Why are they more irresponsible than you?

 

THis is my comment in full:

 

But how would you stop the irresponsible members of society from procreating one, two three different children, from different fathers and relying on the state for housing and hand-outs? Trust me, they exist. I've met them. Too many times

 

The UK has the highest incidence in Europe of teenage pregnancies.

I have spoken (through the work I used to do), to 14, 15 , 16 and 17-year old mothers, some with more than one child, who actually decided to have childen, in order to be given financial benefit, and to be supported by the state, and to be given housing. THis meant they had a legitimate reason to avoid school as well.

The state does this in the UK.

We actually fund this element of society, and make such behaviour and attitude quite easy.

I have met them, they have told me this themselves.

One girl actually managed to get the council to move her into a 6-bedroom house and her family moved in with her.

 

That's the element of society I am calling 'irresponsible'.

[Geishawhelk]

Geisha, you use your brain and logic to the exclusion of your heart. Life is not like that. Relationships are not like that. And your daughters do not function thus.

 

I'm sorry, but you do not know my daughters, so forgive me if I say that you have no knowledge of how they functiuon.

Brains and logic are what are left to me now.

And although my comments may sound harsh, they are not unreasonable. I have not lied, or sought to mislead....

 

I cannot afford to use my heart too much.

It's cracking under the strain.

[Geishawhelk]

I personally never want to have children. However, I would say the reason to have them is that they contribute to the world. Unless you think that the average person has a negative value and makes the world, overall, a worse place, then it logically follows that having a kid is a good thing for society. IMO only extreme misanthropes and nihilists think that the world would be better off if 1 John or Jane Doe was vaporized overnight, thus having a kid who will eventually become a John or Jane Doe is, on balance, a good thing.

 

Besides, who else is going to do my cleaning, take out my trash, give me taxi rides back from the pub, make music and books for me, and provide me with fresh food every day? Other members of the human race, all of whom were at one point mewling, ugly, noisy, annoying little brats.

 

There is a child-free section on another forum I know. Someone came in, and asked,

"Who'll look after you in your old age?"

The respondent - who works in a retirement home -replied that nobody will. A good 70% of the elderly people living there, never received visits from children or relatives. So much for the great values of family bonds and closeness......

But the most friendly constant people were the staff.

so the reply was - people paid to do it.

 

And she added,

"When I get to 80, I may just save everyone the trouble."

 

Sad.

But true.

[Kasan]

I cannot afford to use my heart too much. It's cracking under the strain.

 

I will be honest with you, this brought tears to my eyes.

 

I have found, that it is easy to judge and take sides when you are young and idealistic, and I believe with age, maturity, and having walked in your shoes as mothers to their own children, your beloved daughters will find a way to re-connect with you.

 

I also believe they will see the world in shades of grey instead of black and white. They will lose their illusions and innocence as they learn, what we all learn, we all make mistakes and horrible choices.

 

Just hang on a little longer, all will not be lost GW.

Edited March 1, 2008 by Kasan

[annieo]

GW, I keep checking in on this thread and I have a question (and I am too lazy to check all previous posts, so forgive me if you already answered this one). How long have you been estranged from your daughters? Over a year? Many years? Less than a year?

I ask this because of the time that they might need to grow up and deal with the "shades of grey" aspects of you and your divorce from their dad. It is unlikely to happen rapidly, especially since they are living in his "camp", so to speak.

And I can empathize with your pain. I share custody with my ex h, and I sometimes worry that they might reject me for leaving him (with another man, my current h, in the picture). Although it happened many years (8) ago, when they were quite young. So much water has passed under the bridge since then, I hope that that day will never come. But I've feared it, and sometimes I still do.

[marlena]

To answer the original question:

 

In my experience and only my experience, yes, it was not only worth it, it was the birth of a miracle of a love between two people who resided in one body,one mind, one soul.

 

I will die content just knowing that I have brought so much happiness and joy into the life of another human being. As well she has to mine.

 

My only regret is that I wasn't fortunate enough to have more.

[Geishawhelk]

GW, I keep checking in on this thread and I have a question (and I am too lazy to check all previous posts, so forgive me if you already answered this one). How long have you been estranged from your daughters? Over a year? Many years? Less than a year?

Three-and-a-half years.

I ask this because of the time that they might need to grow up and deal with the "shades of grey" aspects of you and your divorce from their dad. It is unlikely to happen rapidly, especially since they are living in his "camp", so to speak.

There is no question that where they live plays a part.

 

I don't think he has the strength of character to be able to administer discipline either... I'm not quite sure what you'd call it...

When I went to France a month ago, to tie up loose ends and pick up my stuff, the house was a pigsty... I have never seen such a filthy place...Bear in mind my eldest daughter (25) doesn't have a job, and her B/F lives with her, in the home....

When I live here, we used to have one dog and two cats, until one had to be euthanised, due to a car accident.

Now they have 5 cats, (all previously feral) which have the run of the place, and sleep on the dining room table, and on the clean washing... the cat littler is used by all of them indoors, and looked as if it hadn't been emptied in weeks.... it stank.

 

My youngest (17) had acquired 3 pet rats, and kept them in her bedroom...picture teen bedroom, posters on the walls, clothes everywhere but the closets and chest of drawers... no way of telling what was clean or dirty.....the shutters were never opened, so goodness knows how long it had been since that room - or the rats - had seen daylight...

And she's there four or five nights a week. The other two/three, she spends with her B/F....

They also had 3 guinea pigs. They were kept in the upstairs corridor, again, I won't describe the conditions. And again, due to the layout of the house, no daylight.

I was utterly mortifed.

I would never have let it get to this state. For a start, if they couldn't look after them as necessary, they wouldn't have had so many pets....

I don't think any of them know what a vacuum cleaner is....And the cobwebs and general chaos is just gobsmacking....I'm telling you, here's a definite lack of 'a Mother's Touch'.... and it shows....

 

The girls were 'friendly but distant'...The way you'd act with an unwelcome lodger, leaving....you know? While I gathered all my bits and pieces, belongings and personal items and loaded them into the van, they were floating around, but keeping out of the way. When I was ready to leave, and they knew I was going, they didn't come and say goodbye.

Their father looked helpless, inept and inconsequential. He seems to have no backbone. He works away from home during the week, and is home friday evenings until Monday morning. He seems to have no influence or direction.

I didn't meet his new G/F (they have been together for nearly a year-and-a-half) but my partner did. He gets the impression that she is his female doppelgänger....

 

The house sale was completed and signed on the 29th of February.

My ex- asked the new owners for an extension until the end of March, for them to remove everything.

He's going to need longer than that, if the house is to look clean and decent....

 

Ahhhh well.....

[Green]

Geisha walk I can poke holes in your theories and all those who argue against you. This question can be viewed from many different angles and it seems you have many people thinking.

[Geishawhelk]

Geisha walk I can poke holes in your theories and all those who argue against you. This question can be viewed from many different angles and it seems you have many people thinking.

 

Holes can be poked in any theory. That's why they're called 'theories'. Even some 'Facts' are dubious...

 

The question HAS ben viewed from many angles... that's why many people have come in with their thoughts.

 

So, what would you like to say?

Poke away!

 

And it's GeishaWHELK....

 

Admittedly, not my real name.... though that might be fun!!

[Green]

You'll always be Geishawalk to me. Well I'll agree that facts and logic can be distorted any way you want. For me if I find the right woman, I know I'll want to have kids. Otherwise no

[Geishawhelk]

KTM, Could you be more specific?

What facts and logic have you seen that have been 'distorted'..?

 

And who, in this day and age, would be the 'right woman'?

 

Or the 'Right Man', for that matter....!

 

All we can do, is hope for the best ... isn't it?

[Green]

I'll know it when I find it. Or when I've lost it. As for now if I end up having kids its because things went wrong. This is one of those questions that can't be answered with the current information, unless you use religion, or pick facts. thats all I'm saying.

[Geishawhelk]

So excuse me asking... and I'm not trying to be argumentative or confontational - if you have nothing you can add to the thread for dsiscussion - what was the point of posting?

[marlena]

I have found, that it is easy to judge and take sides when you are young and idealistic, and I believe with age, maturity, and having walked in your shoes as mothers to their own children, your beloved daughters will find a way to re-connect with you.

 

 

This I have found to be true. When I was young, my mother, whom I instinctively loved dearly, was pratically a stranger to me. I did not have the knowledge nor the experience to comprehend her world. She had four daughters and none of them could give her the support that she needed as she was going through the various stages of her life. She would often be irritable, exhausted, have mood swings, harbor resentment towards my father who was the "my way or the highway" sort of guy and through all this she would say to us, "one day you will understand."

 

That day came when I matured into my thirties and became a mother myself. Suddenly it all fell into place and the empathy and support I was not in a position to give her back then when I was child was now offered to her in abundance. Finally, I was able to identify with the woman who breathed life into me.

 

We, all five of us, became very close and finally understood eachother as women. We would talk about "girl" things like marriage, clothes, men,children, menopause anything that had to do with the difficulties and injustices of being a woman..and the joys of course. Often, we would side with her against our father, who, being a man, could not understand his harem of five.

 

It was a liberating feeling and an awesome revelation. Finally, mom was not just mom, she had another identity, her own, that she was willing to finally share it with us. Entering my mother's inner world was a journey of discovery.

 

Geisha, I am sure that in time, your daughters will, too, see beyond the mother figure that you represent to them today straight through to the wonderful person you are within. When that happens, they will embrace every part of you, your flaws and your virtues, your strengths and your weaknesses as well as the reasons that motivated you to make the choices that you did in your life.

 

Marlena

Edited March 2, 2008 by marlena