LONG POST - Is it worth having kids?

[blind_otter]

It's the end that makes the world, isn't it?

 

I don't think so. I'm estranged from my mother. We still talk, and she does nice things for me, but we are emotionally distant. We don't hug or kiss. We used to, when I was young, but she did many things to me when I was growing up that made me guard my heart around her.

 

I think she may think a bit like you. She sees her side of it, is entrenched in her worldview. I don't bother to try to communicate mine any more. I hope that I can build a different kind of relationship with my child.

[Geishawhelk]

Sorry Blind otter...I might have lost the thread here....so to speak.... are you talking about my relationship with my mother or my daughter....?

I don't quite get where you're coming from.....

[blind_otter]

Sorry Blind otter...I might have lost the thread here....so to speak.... are you talking about my relationship with my mother or my daughter....?

I don't quite get where you're coming from.....

 

with your daughter.

[Geishawhelk]

Ah, ok, thanks....

 

I completely realise that there's obviously no way that things can ever go back to the way they were, but to be on speaking terms at least, would be a start!

 

I'm not necessarily 'entrenched in a world-view'... actually, far from it.... I hate to bang a drum here, so forgive me if I sound like a stuck record, but as a practising Buddhist, I (we as a whole) come to terms with the never-still, always-changing and eternally transforming state of everything....

 

"Things are not always what they seem. Nor are they otherwise", is a famous Buddhist sutra....

 

I'm going with the flow, and accepting that although they are my flesh and blood, as kahil Gibran so eloquently puts it,

'Your children are not your children......'

[Geishawhelk]

Your children are not your children.

They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.

They come through you but not from you,

And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.

 

You may give them your love but not your thoughts,

For they have their own thoughts.

You may house their bodies but not their souls,

For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,

which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.

You may strive to be like them,

but seek not to make them like you.

For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.

 

You are the bows from which your children

as living arrows are sent forth.

The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite,

and He bends you with His might

that His arrows may go swift and far.

Let our bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;

For even as He loves the arrow that flies,

so He loves also the bow that is stable.

Edited December 28, 2007 by Geishawhelk
Kahil Gibran, 'The Prophet' - Children.

[Ssheena]

I always wanted children. I have two now. I thought about it a lot before deciding to have them. I thought about the state of the world we live in now, the threat of nuclear war (this was the big one back then - ebola was unheard of) the over population of the world as it is and as it increases etc.

Would I do it again? Yup.

Do I understand why some people don't want children? Yup, you betcha.

Just as a child may turn out to be as evil as Adolf Hilter did, so could someone's child turn out to be the one that develops a cure for all cancer, a Gandhi, the person who works on developing a fix for global warming. A hope for mankind. A person who changes the world.

In a way having children is selfish. I want my children to pass on what they have learned from me and carry that on in the world. I am overjoyed that my children read, that my daughter loves the Clash. I have enjoyed teaching them, sharing and having new experiences with them.

 

I am truly sorry that your daughters have turned their backs on you. Would you be willing to explain why you think they have done this? Why has their father not incouraged them to be part of your life? That seems kind of shytty on his part.

 

Having children is a huge, huge responsibility. It is a 365/24/7 job. I basically have put my life on hold while I raised my children - pretty much alone too and I am glad they are finally 17 and 19 and I can go and rediscover who I am.

 

I would like to say that having had both - dogs are much worse than children. Children will eventually learn how to say - I have to go to the bathroom, am going to be sick etc.. dogs never. If you have a dog, you have a child that stays 5 years old.

 

I cried when I brought my son, my youngest, home from the hospital because I knew he was the last child I would have. Now I find myself thinking about being a foster parent.

 

Maybe there should be less people who have children (well, for sure in some countries/states/religions) and certain qualities and tests that people should have to pass before being allowed to have children.

 

You were once a child, what if your mother had decided not to have children?

[blind_otter]

I'm going with the flow, and accepting that although they are my flesh and blood, as kahil Gibran so eloquently puts it,

'Your children are not your children......'

 

This is an interesting point. I think one that my mother struggles with to this day. I was watching a very cute movie last night, "Arctic Tale". There was one point in the movie where a mother polar bear has to drive her child off because she can no longer provide for the two of them. This is a moment that every parent faces. Not necessarily driving their child off, but letting go. You invest so much in raising them and teaching them that you almost feel like you have a stake in them.

 

I don't know. I can't look at my little nieces and nephews and wish they hadn't been born.

[Geishawhelk]

Oh, hang on.... same here...I don't ever look at a child and wish that.

It's just that - I think at the moment, there are more than enough.

 

I guess, to put another spoke in the discussion wheel, what also makes me cross is that the smaller percentage of the world population, has the larger portion of wealth.... there is a massive disparity in global living conditions, and no child - or adult for that matter, should be impoverished, or starving.....

[Ssheena]

Exactly and I don't mean to/didn't mean to imply (if I did) that I think you look at kids and wish they were never born.

 

I totally agree (and could get off on a whole religion string - not naming any names but... come on.. have as many kids as you can???? in today's age?) there is a huge discrepancy in the rich and the poor.

 

Your original question was...?

[Geishawhelk]

....A very, very long one....

 

I merely put forward the opinion (even though I'm a mum of two grown-up girls myself) that it is now morally, socially, economically, environmentally reprehensible to have children in our society at the moment.

And I explined why too....at length.

 

And it has nothing to do with, as one poster put it, having to deal with poopy nappies....!

 

To my surprise, many people have agreed with me, and it has engendered a good, balanced and interesting discussion (apart from the poopy nappy thing! ) with many really valid points.

 

I actually thought I might get shot down in flames..... But it has been a gratifying exercise in good interaction!

[Geishawhelk]

 

I am truly sorry that your daughters have turned their backs on you. Would you be willing to explain why you think they have done this? Why has their father not incouraged them to be part of your life? That seems kind of shytty on his part.

 

Ssheena, thank you so much for coming in and engaging in this.

I explained the 'how' this has all happened, in previous posts, but as to the 'why' - well, you know, I am as in the dark as you are. Really. I still cannot fathom it out. Maybe I never will.

Let's not go into the 'father' bit... that's a whole different ball-game and thread, and I run the risk of convincing everyone I'm some kind of foul-mouthed common quayside fish-wife (with big respect to all quayside fish-wives....!)

Let's just say that every time I have suggested he encourage their willingness to be more communicative, he's always insisted that honestly, he does try, but well, what can he do? if the girls hate me, they hate me... I'll just have to live with the awful and terrible burden of having had a brain between my ears and realising the marriage was over....

Apparently (according to him) I should have been far more self-sacrificing and stuck it out, shelving any idea of a personal desire to fulfil myself and find happiness elsehere.

He has a long-term G/F now, by the way, but my name is still mud....

 

Having children is a huge, huge responsibility. It is a 365/24/7 job. I basically have put my life on hold while I raised my children - pretty much alone too and I am glad they are finally 17 and 19 and I can go and rediscover who I am.

 

I can fully agree and support this. This bears out what I said earlier: That Life is put on hold, and that 95% of the time (even in a relationship) it's the woman who gets left literally holding the baby.

 

I would like to say that having had both - dogs are much worse than children. Children will eventually learn how to say - I have to go to the bathroom, am going to be sick etc.. dogs never. If you have a dog, you have a child that stays 5 years old.

 

Actually - I'm a qualified canine behaviourist - and it doesn't have to be this way....my 5-month old puppy is better behaved than my parner...who's 45 going on 9......"I am the {UK} Dog Wheesperrerr!"

 

You were once a child, what if your mother had decided not to have children?

 

 

Well, taking that question to it's logical conclusion, had she not had kids - how would I know....?

 

Like the joke goes:

"If your parents never had kids, chances are, neither will you....!"

 

But if in some way I had managed to be there when she made her decision - how could I argue against it or not respect it?

 

It's easier for people to fall into the social trap and to have kids bcause of family pressure, because it's the done thing and simply because....

it seems a harder thing to do nowadays to NOT hav children, to openly declare you don't want them, and to say why.

Edited December 29, 2007 by Geishawhelk

[Frances]

It is much more acceptable not to want to have children these days than it was years ago. I know plenty of couples who have decided not to. I do not think people should have children just to suit other people.

 

If of course no one had children it would cause chaos, so lets be realistic about it. Some people should never have children and it would be better if people made a deliberate choice and then did the job of parenting.

 

 

I think Chrome Barracuda is correct in making sure whom ever he marries wants to have children when he himself intends too. It is my opinion and the opinion of numerous marriage guidence councellors that if one party of a couple do not want to have children and the other does it is unlikely the marriage will succeed.

 

The OP

I hope your daughters will come round to contact you not only for your sake but also for their own. I have a sister in that situation and it is hard on all the family.

[annieo]

OP, I don't really get the impression that you, personally, are questioning whether or not you should have had kids. Am I correct? I read your original post and it sounds like you were a good mom and close with your daughters when they were little.

I am also divorced from the dad of my daughter and son. I was the one who wanted out, and I don't regret that decision at all. My kids were fairly young at the time (4 and 6) and they can't really remember us being together (which is a blessing). I've never felt like they blamed me or have sided with either one of us, despite the fact that both my ex-h and I were pretty bitter towards each other for awhile. Things have simmered down considerably.

Just remember, however old they are, they are still kids and they still need you, whether they are acting like it or not. Frankly, my daughter (who just turned 13) treats me like the village idiot on good days now, which is just typical teenaged girl/mother crap, been going on since the dawn of time. She pushes me away, but I'm not going anywhere, and I will continue to be in her life forever, whether she likes it or not.

Even if there is no reciprocation, keep showing them you love them. Cards, e-mails, calls, whatever... even if you get nothing back. Eventually, they'll grow up and realize that even though your relationship with their father ended, they have you in their corner for life. When you think about it, it's similar to caring for a baby. They don't thank you when you feed them, change a diaper, love them. But they need it all (and you) just the same.

Hang in there - I can understand this is painful for you.

[Florida]

Geishawhelk-would i be hijacking your thread if i suggested the issue under the question of "is it worth it to have kids in light of the global situation" is "How does one validate and live with having had kids who they gave over 95% of their existence , and then their kids turn out to be distanced, ungrateful with no hint of future fulfillment either". Side note: I'm not referring to youGeisha-as your kids are still growing, things are in flux. I'm thinking more of adults who don't get on well with parents, or who did not give back to the parents, what was given to them.

 

If anyone puts a signifigant amount of time and effort and-oh i don't know- basically sacrifices their career, looks, body appearance, stress, etc they want to know that it will all pan out in the end. But what about when it doesn't? What about those kids who act like their parents are to be abused, ignored, talked to like a retard, how do parents just rationalize away that disappointment?

 

I can get a plant, care for it, nurture it, most likely it will flower beautifully. But with people-having kids-it is 24/7 and there is NO guarantee of a good future relationship, that they will love you, that they will turn out to be as sterling as you hope.

 

Of course they may turn out *great*, and they could have this terrific fulfilling life in different stages.

 

But more often than not, I see more strained parent/child relationships into adulthood, so that I wonder what the parent really got out of it....

Edited December 31, 2007 by Florida

[Geishawhelk]

Annieo, thank you for your post, it was very comforting...

I do all the things you suggest already, and a ou so classically suggest, there isn't anything on the planet, or elsewhere, that will stop me loving them.

I did say this previously in the thread, but hey! It's so long, with such lengthy posts, I'm not surprised if you didn't see it or read it - heck, I wouldn't either! no problem!)

But that's the other weird thing - the teenage mother/daughter thing....?

never happened. With either of them.

Through every 'phase' of their growing and development, everything - but everything! - was just wonderful! And nobody was more astonished than I! My ex-h and I would see other parents around us going through torture with their kids, and we'd turn to each other and say..."What have we done Right to deserve this - ?!"

They were just model kids.... I felt blessed every time I looked at them, even though the younger one definitely was a behavioural challenge at times, she never ever gave me cause for concern with regard to her behaviour outside the home. And her behaviour never, ever reached the crisis levels that other parents experienced.

 

So you see how this all makes it doubly puzzling....!

Thank you for your kind words of wncouragenment though. They are warmly appreciated, and they spur me on....!

 

Florida, I don't think your hyjacking the post at all...it's just one of the aspects that I believe makes parenting a thankless task....

 

I would just like anyone thinking about having children to read THIS WHOLE THREAD and see how difficult it can be, and use it to help them decide in a more realistic frame of mind....

 

But on we go....!

[nittygritty]

Nittygritty, thank you for your comments and I'm sure, as you have two children, with an age gap between them, you can equate.... But I hope you're not suggesting I have 'abandoned' my children.

Quite the opposite.

I write to them at least once a month, and tell them all my news....I send Christmas, Easter and of course, Birthday gifts and cards, without fail, and try to keep abreast of my younger daughter's progress in her schooling.

What has amazed me, given our previously concrete-solid relationship, is that all and every communication so far has been entirely one way.... from me.

I have never, in the 3-and-a-half years since my separation, had anything back from them. Ever. At all. Which strikes me as both sad and perplexing...It's an awfully long time to hold a grudge against your mother....

My own mother and I have known some pretty tempestuous and explosive times....but she and I have never let such issues keep us apart for long.

 

Ditto, and double ditto......

 

Someone told me that apparently with rifts of this kind, it can take 10 years or more for something to shift.

I'll wait however long it takes. I am always here for them, and will never turn my back on them ever, for as long as they need me. Daughters might....Mothers never do.....

 

 

If you moved far away from where your daughters live after the divorce then your daughters may have felt like you abandoned them. If you didn't move far from where they live then I dunno.

 

I hope for all of you that the estrangement ends soon. Maybe your ex could encourage them to attend some type of counseling with you?

 

Regardless, I hope that you have or will get some type of counseling or therapy to help you cope with the difficult and painful stuff your dealing with.

[cicada]

my short answer for this is NO , it isnt worth it . but i have two kids myself. I think it is just in our nature to have kids, or family pressure or the society's image of a perfect life is to have a husband and kids... even the question Is a husband worth it ? marriage ? to me it is all overrated. unfortunately it makes life harder in fact for many women . I am married with two kids, and I love my kids and my husband but i remember when i was young i said I wouldnt have children , but i did anyway . once you have the kids you love them and then it is just part of your life. but if someone without kids were to ask if it was worth it to them to have kids I would have to say probobly not and if your going to have kids dont do it cause your getting older, or because you got a husband , to me woman can have a wonderfull life without marriage and children my teenager drives me bonkers LOL .. and my toddler fills my eyes with a bunch of miniature hearts ..but raising kids is very difficult. in our society i think in my opinion , women take the brunt of the responsibility and in the long run it isnt fair. but children grow and they do bring joy . it is unconditional love after all . at least when they are children for your situation maybe if your kids are grown just let go of them for now . i think sometimes as women we take too much burden upon ourselves to make everything alright. step back and let your ex deal with the drama if they have any . let go of them they will come when they need you . i always imagined my kids growing up and then just being around me all the time but the fact is we just raise them , they become their own people and then they move on without us for the most part. that is just the way it is i guess . of course there is that once in a while gatherings but it will never be like how it was when our kids were kids. i totally understand where you are coming from . after my two children i have decided that will be it. no more children for me . i love my kids and they give me enought drama and stress and joy to last me a lifetime . dont need any more LOL. thanks for the interesting post

[Geishawhelk]

nittygritty, For the first two years after our separation, I lived less than 15 minutes away.

They still live in France with their father (we moved there in 1999). In 2006, I was forced, by financial circumstances to finally throw in the towel, and move back to the UK.

I learnt today that my eldest daughter came over from France, just after Christmas, to spend some time with my husband's family, and to attend her cousin's wedding.

I had no idea. She was about an hour away from me, and nobody told me.

 

Sorry to say, but if anyone has been abandoned - and would have a right to feel that way - it's me.

 

But like I said, there are certain things, however painful, that one has to live with and accept. Not like, enjoy or give a damn about - accept. However bitter the pill, that's the way they've chosen it to be, and that's that.

[Geishawhelk]

cicada.....

 

[annieo]

Geishawhelk, re-read most of the posts and I am puzzled as well. Does your husband (or his partner) have any reason to want you out of the picture as far as the girls are concerned? Is your ex-h bitter, or blame you (which if your relationship was pretty even-keeled, and you ended it, he might be)?

My relationship with my ex was not very peaceful from my point of view, but he was completely shocked when I asked for the divorce (I think he thought I was another piece of furniture and therefore could not walk away!). Anyway, he was seriously pissed off for awhile and the fact that I was seeing my present husband when we split up (yes, I know, I'm a naughty girl) did nothing to make things easier. And I am quite sure that he would have loved to hurt me anyway he could, and since I didn't care about him, the only way to do it was through the kids. But they were too young to have any adult conception of what was going on. Maybe one day, I will pay.

Sorry to digress - I am beginning to think that I am a thread hijacker. I apologize. But I really wonder what would prompt them to turn so utterly cold to you all of a sudden, and I have only my own experience to base my opinions on. And I suspect that it has a great deal to do with your ex-h's influence, something he has told them about you. Have you ever had the opportunity to speak to them about this?

OK back to your original question. I think the Kalhil Gibran quote sums it up for me. I had them (my daughter and son) because they were meant to be in the world and I (and my ex) were the instruments used to this end. Their lives are in some kind if big plan of the cosmos (just as I believe everyone's is, even the rotters). The fact that they have brought me mostly joy and relatively little sorrow up to this point is an incidental fact. I accept that this could change in an instant. They weren't put here and in my life for my purposes but their own and that of the universe. I don't own them and they don't owe me anything. I just hope that they are happy and they have the combination of luck and smarts to have good lives.

[annieo]

And you're right, they are abandoning you and you have every right to feel that way. But, again, why? Why would they do this? I smell a rat.

[Green]

If you understand people around you, they call you wise. But if you can understand yourself thats enlightened. I've seen a few british horror movies about a future where people couldn't have children any more it was bad. Life in nature can often be solitary, short and brutish and end with a violent death. Through society and population we have reached new heights and living standards. I believe there are enough recourses to go around in this world and I'm very lucky to live in the USA. People who live in poor countries ridled by civil wars and dictators which dont disperse food and wealth properly have it bad. I don't think stop having children is the message that will make a better future. Personaly I don't trust a person who does anything and claims to have done it for a completly selfless reason. Theres no scientific or logical reason as to why we even exist, what I do know is love is a great thing and its hope that keeps the sound of childrens laughter in our playgrounds.

[Storyrider]

I remember when I got pregnant with my first child. My work mate, Simon, said, in a very black tone, "It will ruin you." (He was already the father of two).

 

A few years later, when I reminded him, he didn't remember having said it and laughed it off. I will never forget that, though. In a way, it does ruin you. It kills who you were. It forces you to grow up.

[Florida]

When I think of a father I know by acquaintance, it comes through in his tone about his kid. He always talks about how he had to give up what he wanted to do, to raise his kid. His kid is not the most ideal kid, a troublemaker, probably a disappointment to his parents who felt they had to sacrifice so much for so little return. He told everyone that his wife also sacrificed a lot to have and raise him. They look exhausted, drained, unhappy with eachother, and the unspoken theme-was it worth it for them? I'm guessing no.

 

No one comes out and says it, but it's still being said. I feel really bad for those parents, and parents like them who had to relocate, work at jobs they didn't want to do, and for......what? Some teenager who doesn't give a damn and is a drain on them financially.

Edited January 3, 2008 by Florida

[Green]

I dont feel bad for them. Most of these people didnt have a basket dropped on their doorstep. and people warn you how hard and anoying raising a family is all the time.