LONG POST - Is it worth having kids?

[Geishawhelk]

And you're right, they are abandoning you and you have every right to feel that way. But, again, why? Why would they do this? I smell a rat.

 

With reference to your post immediately before this one, yes you're right.

Whilst there seemed to be a 'plain-sailing' image of our relationship (to many we were the long-lasting golden couple) I knew it was an entire total sham.

 

I really am not into washing dirty linen in public, and I dislike being severely critical of others when they have no means of being able to defend themselves. Would you all please be tolerant therefore of my reticence and reluctance to go into detail, because when all is said and done, I thrive on my own principles of Dignity and Respect.

For example, you will see that I have never mentioned either my ex's name, nor those of my two daughters. The account I have related has been factual, and I have resisted the impulse to vent or insult (though trust me, the temptation at times....!! ) There were simply attributes of (to?) my ex's character that instead of mellowing and easing off over time, actually intensified and became difficult to bear. I felt stifled, and the relationship became humourless, stagnant and mind-numbingly boring.... he seemed to not notice this, and took for granted that simply because he was content, then I must also have been.

 

Believe me, I am sorely tempted to give a list of examples and an account of things that ultimately rang the death-knell of our relationship, but I feel it would be ultimately more constructive to resist.

 

Much of what happened since our separation, has been fuelled by his inability to separate the 'practical, business-side' of the divorce, from his emotional desire to have his revenge. He was extremely indignant and outraged when his solicitor explained that the Courts (in the UK) do not take account of adultery as being 'blameworthy' and they merely look at the practical, not the emotional. Much as he might wish for me to "Go! and never darken his doorstep again!" things had moved on fom the 19th century attitude to divorce.... Seriously. I received a copy of the letter from his solicitor.

 

So there is little doubt in my mind that living with their father, under the same roof for over 3 years, has had some effect upon their psyche, yes....

[Green]

I should feel sorry for you

[Geishawhelk]

KMT, really, what you feel is entirely your choice, up to you, and I'm not sure what you mean by your post, but I don't seek sympathy, neither do I necessarily believe i deserve it by rights....

 

I'm just explaining what things are like. They are as they are.

All I can control is me.

[annieo]

Geishawhelk, I respect and admire your discretion, as I know how difficult it is to be silent and be blamed by all and sundry who knew nothing of the hell that was my marriage to an over-controlling, demeaning Svengali-type, who was sweet as pie in public and a jerk when no one was looking (sorry I couldn't resist ). From the description you gave of your marriage and it's breakdown, let me say that it all sounds more than a little familiar.

I think that some people (particularly younger folk who have not been married, had children, who still have the luxury of oversimplifying and idealizing marriage and motherhood) might be inclined to see things in black and white, and conclude that if you leave an outwardly "workable" marriage (e.g., no beatings, no verbal abuse, no cheating) you deserve what you get. Who cares - walk a few miles in my shoes and then tell me how to live my life.

Good luck to you. I sincerely hope that as your girls mature and begin to get a wider world view (perhaps after some relationship experiences of their own) that they come around, literally and figuratively.

[Green]

KMT, really, what you feel is entirely your choice, up to you, and I'm not sure what you mean by your post, but I don't seek sympathy, neither do I necessarily believe i deserve it by rights....

 

I'm just explaining what things are like. They are as they are.

All I can control is me.

 

I know exactly what you seek. Open your mind

[Geishawhelk]

What I seek, I have found. It's just a question of dropping the idiocy and taking it. It is there for the taking.....

[Green]

Never Underestimate the Power of Stupid

[Geishawhelk]

Aaaah, a man of mystery and few words.

Care to elaborate?

Just what are you getting at?

[Green]

That labeling things as idiocy doesn't affect its force.

[Geishawhelk]

That labeling things as idiocy doesn't affect its force.

 

It was more an indication of my own state, rather than 'things'.

But as you say, even this is erroneous....However, at times, limited by the constrictions of expressive language, we are compelled to call everything 'something'.....

 

Different thread, my friend...

Feel free to start one...

[cicada]

I dont feel bad for them. Most of these people didnt have a basket dropped on their doorstep. and people warn you how hard and anoying raising a family is all the time.

 

I don't feel bad for parents ( i am one myself lol ) it is true they warn you but alot of us have them anyway .... where's the sense ?? LOL .. i dont know , at a certain point it goes out the window . there are situations in life where we think we know better then other people's advice , and we go against that advice and do what we want . it is sort of like that . sometimes it will be a good decision and sometimes a not so good one LOL. that's life , live and learn

[milvushina]

Geisha,

I feel the same as you in many respects. I never thought I would have a baby, or if I did that I would adopt. Besides all the potential human tragedies like a disabled child, or a split like in your family, I am very concerned about the environment and overpopulation. I am pregnant now. I don't know if you will think my reasons for changing my mind are logical but I'll share.

 

If we raise our child with our values, then they probably also be concerned about the environment and the other things that are important to us. Chance is on our side because most people do come to share the family's values even though it is natural to rebel at some point. We can offer a home with a lot of love, patience and care and have a good chance of raising a kid who will actually be a nice addition to the planet.

 

Besides, I remember growing up when my parents were the age my H and I are now and until I was about 12 we had so much fun. It was such a happy time for all of us, I would like to have that kind of family again. Plus, better chance you will have someone there for you when you are old. These are just the reasons besides instinctive desire, which may not be logical but is probably more than enough by itself.

 

I realize the baby could grow up to be the complete opposite of me or even a criminal or something, however, I don't see what is really logical either about basing a decision on what terrible things could happen. Much more likely is the reality will fall somewhere between best and worse case and it will be worth it. I hope.

 

I just want to say I don't think it's too late for your kids to realize what a bad idea it is to abandon a parent. It is so sad when this happens. Did your ex lie to them about you? Make you out to be the bad guy? My husband's dad's first wife did that with their boys. Eventually they figured out how manipulative she was, but it was too late to make up because their dad had passed. It was really a sad story.

[Green]

It was more an indication of my own state, rather than 'things'.

But as you say, even this is erroneous....However, at times, limited by the constrictions of expressive language, we are compelled to call everything 'something'.....

 

Different thread, my friend...

Feel free to start one...

 

From what I understand your question is about why people decide to have kids in present times. I believe times have been far worse then they are now. When you decided it was worth having kids it was far from a perfect world. Why then did you have kids. If you can remember why, you'll be closer to having your answer and avoid the limitation of our written language.

[Geishawhelk]

If you can remember why, you'll be closer to having your answer and avoid the limitation of our written language.

 

That's just it. I fell into the same trap most people fall into...because I thought it was the right thing to do, because convention seemed to require it, because that's what everyone did, wasn't it?

And it is precisely this illogical thought process - MY illogical thought process - that I'd like people to think about before they consider having children.

Oh, well, yes, it's ok for me to say it. I've had kids, so that's alright then isn't it?

No, it isn't.

I can't turn the clock back, and I adore my children, and I had them.

That's the end of it.

but if I could turn the clock back - I'd be childless.

[stillafool]

The other thing to consider in bringing children in this world is "the children". My parents use to say to me "we brought you into this world" as if they did me a favor. It's hard living in this big, cruel world. Kids cannot chose their parents. It is the parents wants and desires that bring us here. Kids don't owe anything.

[SeanzMommy01]

All I have to say is, Not everyones life sucks sweety. Im not saying mine has gone it's best. I'm 18, married, with a 6 month old son and my husband is in the army.

My life for the past 3 years has had many hard times, some the people in their entire lifetimes couldn't understand the bull**** i've delt with.

I know what your thinking. Yes im young, and My son was not a planned pregnancy but I definitly didn't want an abortion. To give your love and devotion to a child, to care for and love unconditionally, to watch this child grow, share these experiences with your husband and family, IT MAKES YOU GROW UP YOURSELF. If someone decides they dont want children then they are afraid of commitment, probably want to live their life in sin, and dont want to know what real love is.

 

No, nobody knows the future, and yes, children are a pain in the ass sometimes. But what the hell have you been through in your life that hasnt been hard at times?

 

I have a question...If your kids sided with your father, obviously its because you think this way and somehow your kids saw that in you.

I dont know how you might have raised your kids, but there has to be a reason they sided with their dad?

[hotgurl]

I think is it so sad that a lot of people feel like they sacrificed themselves to have children.

 

Yes you have to make compromises but one shouldn't have to sacrfice oneself.

 

I have always been true to myself and followed my dreams as I was raising my daughter. Sure some things might take longer but so what.

 

It is just a sad negative point of view. And cup is 1/2 empty way of living life.

 

My daughter has enhanced my life. She has giving it so much purpose. Yes there were times whne I wanted to strangle her but I feel the good far out weighs the bad.

 

And soon when she is ready to leave with a tear I will give her her wings and know that ocassionally she will fly back to me.

[Geishawhelk]

All I have to say is, Not everyones life sucks sweety.

 

Too darned right! My life is happier and more joyful now than it has ever been before... I'm not suggesting my life sucks at all... Where have I given that impression?

 

I have a question...If your kids sided with your father, obviously its because you think this way and somehow your kids saw that in you.

They made their decision practically overnight, and completely arbitrarily....The fact that their father and I split up was directly, none of their business. they were not involved, and both my ex and I wanted - and still want - to keep it that way. But they took an almost instant decision to completely cut me off. In less than a week, they decided they no longer wanted me in their lives. How can that have been something they 'saw in me'?

I dont know how you might have raised your kids, but there has to be a reason they sided with their dad?

 

Ah. I see. you haven't read the thread. Otherwise you would have a full and detailed description of their upbringing.

Perhaps if I may say so, it would be more constructive if you were to read the history before making random comments....?

Yes. I know it's long.

Yes, I know it's tedious.

Yes, I know it would take a long time.

But at least your comments would be better informed and less patronising.

 

 

Sweety.

Edited January 22, 2008 by Geishawhelk

[hotgurl]

The fact that their father and I split up was directly, none of their business. they were not involved, and both my ex and I wanted - and still want - to keep it that way. But they took an almost instant decision to completely cut me off. In

 

unfortunatly this is wrong it is thier business and they are invloved. It effected thier lives in a big way. not to say it was wrong to divorce.

 

Did your ex keep the house? It is weird they would just cut you off. Do you call them? I know you metioned writing but talking is different.

 

Have you ever sat down with them and discussed this. Or do they ignore your calls as well?

[Geishawhelk]

unfortunatly this is wrong it is thier business and they are invloved. It effected thier lives in a big way. not to say it was wrong to divorce.

It is none of therir business insofar as the specific reasons for why their father and I divorced, are concerned. Neither he nor I were either willing nor wanting to air our dirty laundry infront of them. We never raised our voices to each other, or argued inf ront of them, and more importantly, we never tried to use them as pawns in our quarrel.

The moment he and I decided to split, we kept the girls informed of our decisions, movements and included them as far as their roles were concerned.

Why do you suggest it was 'wrong to divorce'?

 

Did your ex keep the house?

He remained in the house because this seemed to be the best solution, as the girls were both living there, and the youngest attended the local school. His remaining in the house was the most ideal option, but three months after my departure, he changed all the locks, without prior warning or my consent, and basically denied me access to my own home.

The house has now been sold, and the proceeds divided accordingly.

 

 

It is weird they would just cut you off. Do you call them? I know you metioned writing but talking is different.

Have you ever sat down with them and discussed this. Or do they ignore your calls as well?

 

If I had a pound for every time I have tried this, i'd be able to retire a rich woman....

[nittygritty]

Geishawhelk, Why do you trust that your ex has been completely honest with you and your daughters as the communication go-between?

 

If you haven't spoken to your daughters since you and your ex separated how can you be certain that what your ex tells you is true? Who knows what he has told your daughters about you? Its possible he even intercepts the mail you send them?

 

Also, why would your ex and even the courts allow your daughters to not speak or see you again? Did you have any legal visitation or communication spelled out in a separation agreement or divorce decree?

 

Even if my kids told me the same things your saying your ex told you that your daughters said, I wouldn't have believed it and if it were true I would have had to make it right, what ever it was.

 

Their reactions aren't healthy for them or you. Do you have enough information to know what's really going on with your daughters?

Edited January 22, 2008 by nittygritty

[sb129]

Geisha- I am sorry to hear about this situation. I can't imagine not having hte very close bond I have with my mother. She is my best friend. I really hope you reach a positive resolution one day with your children.

 

My fiance and I definitely want kids, I can't even tell you exactly why, its a combination of wanting to extend our family, passing on our genes, potentially having great Rs the way we both do with our parents- all selfish reasons, granted, but we could definitely give children a good life.

 

Thats not to say it doesn't scare the living sh** out of me.

I have no idea whether I CAN have kids.

I think I will be a good mother, but i don't know for sure if I will be a "natural"-

I can be very selfish- how will I cope? I worry that it might cause distance between my partner and I.

I have a disabled family member, and I don't know if I COULD cope with a disabled child, hypocritical as that may sound.

 

And the thing is- you can't try before you buy, there is no sending back the goods if you decide you are a crap parent.

 

WB (fiance) and I have talked about it, and we see how hard it is for our friends and family who have children already. But we see more good than bad at this point, so we will try to have our own. I hope we can have them, but we have talked about what will happen if we can't, and we have decided that if thats the case, then we will deal with it.

So.... watch this space.

 

 

 

Milvushina- congratulations! So glad to hear your wonderful news.

[Geishawhelk]

Geishawhelk, Why do you trust that your ex has been completely honest with you and your daughters as the communication go-between?

I don't. Not in the slightest. But they're in France. I'm in the Uk. And he has never assumed the role of communication go-between, either off his own back, or at my request. He claims to have no influence over what they think say or do. He says they made their own minds up, and that he can't help it if they feel this way....

 

If you haven't spoken to your daughters since you and your ex separated how can you be certain that what your ex tells you is true? Who knows what he has told your daughters about you? Its possible he even intercepts the mail you send them?

No, he doesn't. And my mother is still in touch with them all. so whilst it seems that he feels he can't do anything to influence them positively, it is obvious according to my mother, that he's not exactly doing anything to encourage them to stay in touch either. She says she feels she doesn't know them at all. it's like talking to strangers at times. She keeps in touch out of a sense of duty really: to be able to say that she at least hasn't cut them of out of a sense of loyalty to me, even if it seems they have done this to me...

But as is the case in my other posts, I'm afraid you only have my word for it, so I am unable to corroborate this. as I stated previously, I am fully aware that every sory has 2 sides - or more....

 

Also, why would your ex and even the courts allow your daughters to not speak or see you again? Did you have any legal visitation or communication spelled out in a separation agreement or divorce decree?

No. First of all, even though we live in France, obtaining a divorce was not initially as clear-cut as one would think: we were full-time residents in France, and had no obligational ties (financial, property) to the UK, so it was unclear to begin with whether we needed to use French Law or British. The marriage was the latter... eventually, Robert decided to try to push for a British divorce because it would have taken only 7 weeks under UK law, as opposed to 2 years, in France. The two Courts decided that although we were French Residents, we were domiciled in the UK. I'm afraid I can't elaborate, but trust me, this is correct. we spent a long time establishing this.

According to British Law, because he and I came to our own arrangements regarding the care of my youngest (being a minor... the eldest was already an adult in the eyes of the law, and didn't count) no action was deemed necessary with regard to visits, or access. We both agreed it should be a free, unhindered and unlegislated matter. we did meet for abribitration, and in order to keep things as simple and as cost effective as possible, most of the deals were thrashed out by just us two. Which suited us both fine.

 

Their reactions aren't healthy for them or you. Do you have enough information to know what's really going on with your daughters?

This is really what's going on with my daughters. I know it's not 'healthy'... but it's like any kind of 'blind' behaviour... Everyone can tell a smoker that tobacco is bad for them. The smoker knows it's bad for them. but it's not enough for them to know. it requires that they want to quit....

 

I really have no qualms whatsoever discussing this with anyone. I am perfecly open to discussion, and sincerely have nothing to hide.

 

But we're getting seriously off-topic....!!

 

Milvushina, I think that makes a great deal of sense.

Thank you for posting.

 

Now all we need to do is to imbue the remainder of the world population with your good sense and values.

Which is not meant to be either ironic or sarcastic, by the way.

I really do mean that we need to do this.

Really!

[nittygritty]

I don't. Not in the slightest. But they're in France. I'm in the Uk. And he has never assumed the role of communication go-between, either off his own back, or at my request. He claims to have no influence over what they think say or do. He says they made their own minds up, and that he can't help it if they feel this way....

 

 

No, he doesn't. And my mother is still in touch with them all. so whilst it seems that he feels he can't do anything to influence them positively, it is obvious according to my mother, that he's not exactly doing anything to encourage them to stay in touch either. She says she feels she doesn't know them at all. it's like talking to strangers at times. She keeps in touch out of a sense of duty really: to be able to say that she at least hasn't cut them of out of a sense of loyalty to me, even if it seems they have done this to me...

But as is the case in my other posts, I'm afraid you only have my word for it, so I am unable to corroborate this. as I stated previously, I am fully aware that every sory has 2 sides - or more....

 

 

No. First of all, even though we live in France, obtaining a divorce was not initially as clear-cut as one would think: we were full-time residents in France, and had no obligational ties (financial, property) to the UK, so it was unclear to begin with whether we needed to use French Law or British. The marriage was the latter... eventually, Robert decided to try to push for a British divorce because it would have taken only 7 weeks under UK law, as opposed to 2 years, in France. The two Courts decided that although we were French Residents, we were domiciled in the UK. I'm afraid I can't elaborate, but trust me, this is correct. we spent a long time establishing this.

According to British Law, because he and I came to our own arrangements regarding the care of my youngest (being a minor... the eldest was already an adult in the eyes of the law, and didn't count) no action was deemed necessary with regard to visits, or access. We both agreed it should be a free, unhindered and unlegislated matter. we did meet for abribitration, and in order to keep things as simple and as cost effective as possible, most of the deals were thrashed out by just us two. Which suited us both fine.

 

 

This is really what's going on with my daughters. I know it's not 'healthy'... but it's like any kind of 'blind' behaviour... Everyone can tell a smoker that tobacco is bad for them. The smoker knows it's bad for them. but it's not enough for them to know. it requires that they want to quit....

 

I really have no qualms whatsoever discussing this with anyone. I am perfecly open to discussion, and sincerely have nothing to hide.

 

But we're getting seriously off-topic....!!

 

Milvushina, I think that makes a great deal of sense.

Thank you for posting.

 

Now all we need to do is to imbue the remainder of the world population with your good sense and values.

Which is not meant to be either ironic or sarcastic, by the way.

I really do mean that we need to do this.

Really!

 

 

To be estranged from your children would be a parents worst nightmare type of situation and its understandable why your questioning "Is it worth having kids?"

 

I am a single parent who has a child whose father chose to abandon all of his parenting responsibilities to my child from the time of marriage separation which might explain some of why your original post "pushed a button or hit a nerve" with me. I apologize for misunderstanding your situation.

 

Recently my oldest woke me up in the middle of the night to tell me that a troubled friend of hers from school had called saying that she was home alone and had intentionally ingested chemicals that could have easily killed the girl. My daughter had called the emergency number to get an ambulance sent to where the girl had said she was.

 

Long story short, the troubled friend had lied about her whereabouts and was actually at her other parents house, who was home and once again denied and lied about the severity of her problems that many at school are aware of. The parent thanked my daughter but nothing was really done. A counselor at school thanked my daughter again and told her once again that she did the right thing by telling and my daughter told me that she said to the counselor "Everyone keeps telling me I did the right thing, I could care less about ratting her out but nobody's getting the girl help and I can't handle it anymore..."

 

Neither of the troubled girls parents want the responsibility of parenting their child anymore. Having kids isn't "worth it" to them.

 

Do I think having kids is worth it? You bet!!!

 

Having kids was the greatest thing I ever did! :)

Edited January 24, 2008 by nittygritty

[stupidgrl]

I don't know what planet you live on, but the ones here on Earth are not logical.

 

So, first off why do you need a logical reason to advocate human procreation?

 

I think it's pretty obvious what the logical reason to have children is, unless you want the human race to become extinct, it's sort of necessary for humans to reproduce to continue the race. Of course, if you doomsayers are right, we're going to all blow ourselves up anyway or the global warming beast will microwave our brains (it's like ten degrees here) so what the hell does it matter whether anybody has kids or not?

 

I have to agree that society puts way too much pressure on a childless couple to have children. If it's not the parents that want to be grandparents, it's the old grandmotherly secretary at work asking why you don't have kids yet, or the single people who are jealous and trying to make you feel bad, or the other parents that are pissed they had kids and want everyone else to be miserable too.

 

I agree that childless people who think they want to make the huge forever-life-altering step of having a child, need to step back and really be sure they are ready for that kind of commitment, with no guarantee of return on your investment. Some people are cut out for this, and some are not. Be honest with yourselves.

 

 

As a mother of a five year old girl and being married for over eleven years, I often question how I got here, is the grass greener on the other side. Unfortunately, it is taboo for a mother to openly admit that she doesn't enjoy every drool-ridden tantrum-throwing minute of her child's existence. Oh and I can hear you super-mommies now, contradicting me. You're all deluded. I'm not saying I don't often enjoy my daughter, I do. If I didn't, I would have put her up for adoption or had a hysterectomy before becoming sexually active. I'm not allowed to publicly admit that she's not the best thing that ever happened to me. If chance had instead happened that I didn't have her, I would be all right with it.

 

I love her dearly, I want the best for her, I hope she cures cancer and all that jazz, but I do not feel compelled to donate every last drop of my blood and tears to support her existence. I think I am a good mom, but I'm not going to drive myself insane so that I can make handmade Valentine's for twenty-five other spinning crazy five year olds that don't really care whether it's handmade or store bought, they just want the candy dammit (for example)!

 

After answering your veiled question, I have to say, I sympathize with your situation. Unfortunately, my stepfather cut me and my sisters off from our father for over 3 years, and visits/communication was far and few between for years before that. My second youngest sister doesn't even really know my father since my parents divorced when she was three, and he maybe got to see her once or twice a year for maybe ten years, then not at all. My stepfather stole all our mail from our father which we never got to see, and he didn't allow a telephone in the house for over five years after the divorce. As the oldest, I know my father the best, and I'm often hurt when even now that we're all adults, sometimes my sisters say something mean about my dad and I know it is because of all the years of brainwashing.

 

Finally, if you re-read your responses and honestly reflect, you have to admit that it is easy for others to come to the conclusion that this is more than a question about why have children at all. You're really asking - why? Why did this happen to me? What did I do to deserve this? Where did all the good times go? You are gut-wrenchingly hurt, and rightly so. I hope you are able to find counseling and don't give up on the girls. Someday they will grow up, move away, and figure out you were only human and that they were getting a lop-sided story. Life is too short, and it is so sad that people hold grudges and play these stupid mind games with innocent children and each other for so long. It's just not worth it.

 

To play devil's advocate though, as a child after my parents' divorce, I often wondered why my dad didn't try harder to see me. Why he didn't fight my mother and stepfather for visitation. Why did he let us move to another state, or why didn't he move closer? Instead I got to live with a physically and emotionally abusive psychopath for seven years. They put me in the awkward situation of having to choose who to live with. WTF? I was 12. Come on. I wanted to be with my mom because I was closer to her at the time, but looking back I wish I had stayed with my Dad. At least he wouldn't beat me and threaten to kill me, my sisters, and my mother. My mother at first wanted to move out and leave us with Dad. The impetus for their divorce was an affair on my mother's part with a man only nine years older than me. That would have been her easy way out. She felt she owed my Dad that, but as a young child having your mother say she's leaving is the most horrific thing ever.

 

Divorce hurts everyone involved, especially the children. No matter what age the children are. It should not be inconceivable that they will feel abandoned and hurt also. Don't blame the children for what their parents chose to do. Their parents ripped their lives, their whole world apart. Yeah, there might be some bitterness and only time can heal these sorts of wounds.

 

Best wishes.