LONG POST - Is it worth having kids?

[Geishawhelk]

I don't know what planet you live on, but the ones here on Earth are not logical.

 

So, first off why do you need a logical reason to advocate human procreation?

Bercause to function purely on instinct and emotion is irrational and eventually destructive. We function on Logic all the time.

Society depends on it.

You don't walk in the middle of the road, you'd kill yourself.

Logical, isn't it...?

 

I think it's pretty obvious what the logical reason to have children is, unless you want the human race to become extinct, it's sort of necessary for humans to reproduce to continue the race. Of course, if you doomsayers are right, we're going to all blow ourselves up anyway or the global warming beast will microwave our brains (it's like ten degrees here) so what the hell does it matter whether anybody has kids or not?

Lovely reasoning.

so if a gunman breaks into your home, and threatens your kids, it doesn't matter, because you can have more?

By birthing your kids, you have condemned them to die.

That's real, factual and logical.

Ever thought of it that way?

 

I have to agree that society puts way too much pressure on a childless couple to have children. If it's not the parents that want to be grandparents, it's the old grandmotherly secretary at work asking why you don't have kids yet, or the single people who are jealous and trying to make you feel bad, or the other parents that are pissed they had kids and want everyone else to be miserable too

.

Reasoning based on emotion and instinct. I told you we needed logic....

 

I agree that childless people who think they want to make the huge forever-life-altering step of having a child, need to step back and really be sure they are ready for that kind of commitment, with no guarantee of return on your investment. Some people are cut out for this, and some are not. Be honest with yourselves.

Unfortunately there are way to many parents who are not cut out for this.

I'm sure you know a few. I know I do...

For someone arguing against me, you're illustrating my points really well, actually!

 

I'm not allowed to publicly admit that she's not the best thing that ever happened to me. If chance had instead happened that I didn't have her, I would be all right with it.

 

I'm not even going to go there....

 

After answering your veiled question, I have to say, I sympathize with your situation. Unfortunately, my stepfather cut me and my sisters off from our father for over 3 years, and visits/communication was far and few between for years before that. My second youngest sister doesn't even really know my father since my parents divorced when she was three, and he maybe got to see her once or twice a year for maybe ten years, then not at all. My stepfather stole all our mail from our father which we never got to see, and he didn't allow a telephone in the house for over five years after the divorce. As the oldest, I know my father the best, and I'm often hurt when even now that we're all adults, sometimes my sisters say something mean about my dad and I know it is because of all the years of brainwashing.

 

If ever this was an example of a dysfunctioning family, it MAKES MY POINT!!!!

This is why some people shouldn't even be allowed out of the Gene pool!!

 

You're really asking - why? Why did this happen to me? What did I do to deserve this?

Actually, you're quite wrong. I'm not asking anything of the kind. but I can see, black squiggles on a page, why you'd come to this conclusion. But trust me on this one - you are way off bat.

 

Where did all the good times go? You are gut-wrenchingly hurt, and rightly so. I hope you are able to find counseling and don't give up on the girls. Someday they will grow up, move away, and figure out you were only human and that they were getting a lop-sided story. Life is too short, and it is so sad that people hold grudges and play these stupid mind games with innocent children and each other for so long. It's just not worth it.

 

tell me again why you think it's a good idea to have kids then...?

 

I am beyond counselling, and they wouldn't go.

besides, me in the UK? Them in France? Bit difficult.

 

To play devil's advocate though, as a child after my parents' divorce, I often wondered why my dad didn't try harder to see me. Why he didn't fight my mother and stepfather for visitation. Why did he let us move to another state, or why didn't he move closer? Instead I got to live with a physically and emotionally abusive psychopath for seven years. They put me in the awkward situation of having to choose who to live with. WTF? I was 12. Come on. I wanted to be with my mom because I was closer to her at the time, but looking back I wish I had stayed with my Dad. At least he wouldn't beat me and threaten to kill me, my sisters, and my mother. My mother at first wanted to move out and leave us with Dad. The impetus for their divorce was an affair on my mother's part with a man only nine years older than me. That would have been her easy way out. She felt she owed my Dad that, but as a young child having your mother say she's leaving is the most horrific thing ever.

I never distanced myself from my daughters, or ever 'left' them. I lived less than 10 minutes away.

I'm deeply sorry for the situation you found yourself in. I wish there had been more help for you, and your experiences put mine into the shade. What I'm going through is a walk in the park compared to you... It's just a squabble.

And I am soooo not bothered by it now...

 

But you know, as for my initial question - you have answered it perfectly.

[stupidgrl]

Who said I'm arguing against you? I'm just commenting on some impressions made.

 

I still have no freaking clue what your point is? What is it exactly? People shouldn't have kids because life might not be perfect? We need to limit the number of people on the planet because it cramps your style? ( I wouldn't mind a few dropping off the face of the earth myself

 

How sad. egads. an emotion. Let's not feel, that would be illogical.

 

Yeah, we're all going to die someday, boo hoo. So what. Life is short, live, learn, love.

 

Happy Valentine's Day!

[older_no_wiser]

To answer your question. Yes, to me it is. A wholehearted and resounding yes. I have two daughters. One grown and off at Art school. She brings joy and laughter to my life in spades. She fills my heart with love; shows me love; is a loving person. She has a good heart a good brain and a talent. And she uses all of them, dilligently and well. Some of it I take great pride in knowing I affected. Lots of it I am thrilled to be allowed to witness as it is clear it comes from a different gene pool to mine and I consider myself blessed to be a small part of the mix.

 

Child number two is still at home with me. (I dread the day she leaves.) She is clever, musical, slightly eccentric, way tougher than her sister but lots more into being touchy feely and with an entirely different perspective to me in the way she looks at many things. Scatty where her sister is ultra organised. Logical where her sister is all heart. They love one another to bits and watching THEM together is as much a joy as my own relationship with them.

 

As a single - and often broke! - mum for a fair part of their lives, it hasn't been easy. Has it been worth it? Without the slightest doubt. Did I think that way during the tough times, the rebellious times, the oh-my-God-teenager times? Yeah, pretty much. Because I always knew it would not be perpetual smiles. But.... I WANTED them. No logic. Just a desire to have them. That is my personal choice and to me, that's all I need to make it worth having them.

 

Would I feel that way in your shoes? I like to think I would. But I also like to think it would never have happened, and/or I would have reacted differently - and I know I wouldn't be in a different country. You intellectualise it. For me - as I suspect for many, intellect has nothing to do with it and so you will never get an answer that suits you. Nor I suspect, will you understand your daughters and their choices. But the sadness of your situation lends no weight to the arguement about whether or not having children is "worth" it.

[mammax3]

Whoa! Cool thread. I have to say I skimmed over a lot of the arguing posts.

 

All through my reading of this thread (tedious, not so much. Long? yes) I was waiting for someone to say that humans are no different than any other parasite except that we have the brains to think of better and better ways to suck the life out of our host. We use our logic to create new and better ways to increase our life at the expense of the lives around us. I'd like to cite the example of cutting down the wildlife to make more room for the suburban jungle. It makes NO sense to push outward AND find new ways to create longer lives.

 

**Warning! Potentially offensive material below**

Not having kids sounds the same as asking whether a person would have cancer treatments, AIDS medicine or the polio vaccine.

 

"Nature" continually tries to think of new ways to purge itself of this increasingly deadly parasite called humans. And humans continually try to think of new ways to stop nature. As a result we are killing the very life of nature - something we cannot live without. Strange. And not very logical.

 

( Really, I'm actually a very optimistic, happy person!)

 

I'm a (relatively) newly single mother of 3, the youngest is almost 9 months. It is ridiculously hard, yes. I can't even imagine what you've gone through over the last few years. I knew it would be hard and yet I still chose to have kids with only a cursory nod to how much my procreation would negatively affect the world.

 

One person doing one small thing will not create change, but if each one of us does one small thing, it will create change.

[Geishawhelk]

I'd love to know exactly what it is you're tying to say....

 

On the one hand you're calling humans parasites, and accuse the race of trying to suck the very life-blood out of Mother Nature, and on the other, you say you had 3 kids with only a cursory nod to the negative effect it would have on the world... which seems a bit self-contradictory.

You talk about the human race as if it was something separate from you, as if you bear no responsibility for the state of the world - it's 'them', not 'me'.

 

Well, every time you put in a massive washload full of kids clothes, you're contributing to the parasitic behaviour.

Every time you take your car out you're contributing to the parasitic behaviour

every time you do anything, three-fold because your kids have to eat, right? - you're contributing to the parasitic behaviour.

 

You condemn mankind with some pretty harsh words, yet choose a selfish attitude by popping kids out without a second thought as to what you might be contributing to the pile.

 

**Warning! Potentially offensive material below**

If you'd stopped to think for a minute about the effect a person can have, globally, maybe we'd be 3 "parasites" less. (your description, not mine). One person doing one small thing can create change. And if you had chosen to not have kids, it would actually have made quite a big change.

Thanks for that.

[mammax3]

Condemning!

 

I'm trying to explore your idea about why have kids and contribute to the decline of the earth's resources!

 

I'm fully aware of how my actions with my 3 kids are contributing and I try in as many ways as I can to teach my kids how to have a smaller global footprint and be gentle to nature. It's a shame you think I'm somehow separate from 'them' because I'm obviously a human. It's also a shame that you ask for peoples opinions and then lament their responses and do nothing to further encourage 'debate'.

 

I personally don't subscribe to the theory that humans are parasites, per se, I don't exactly think we're treating the earth as though it's our only home. Nor do I think cancer treatments and medical advancements have no purpose or are bad.

[Arch]

lol if everyone just had one/two kids the world wouldn't be overpopulating, having more then that is a bad decision, at least if you are concerned about the enviromental impact.

[Geishawhelk]

I still chose to have kids with only a cursory nod to how much my procreation would negatively affect the world.

 

and

 

I'm fully aware of how my actions with my 3 kids are contributing and I try in as many ways as I can to teach my kids how to have a smaller global footprint and be gentle to nature.

 

This is why I'm confused...You seem to be contradicting yourself...

 

It's also a shame that you ask for peoples opinions and then lament their responses and do nothing to further encourage 'debate'.

I don't lament your response. I lament your lack of responsibility. See your first quote, above....

[Geishawhelk]

But.... I WANTED them. No logic. Just a desire to have them. That is my personal choice and to me, that's all I need to make it worth having them.

 

And that is of course a choice in a free world that you're entitled to make. but with no grounding other than a personal desire?

That's selfish. Full stop and all about it.

Don't worry though. I was selfish too.

 

But the sadness of your situation lends no weight to the arguement about whether or not having children is "worth" it.

I just hope it serves as a warning to others. Judging by the disproportionate quantity of parents I have met, who agree it was not their best decision, and who regret it big time, it hasn't worked.

[nittygritty]

and

 

 

 

This is why I'm confused...You seem to be contradicting yourself...

 

 

I don't lament your response. I lament your lack of responsibility. See your first quote, above....

 

 

I disagree. Mammax3 takes full responsibility for the 3 kids she brought into this world. She did not self-reproduce nor did an immaculate conception take place.

 

Are you scolding her for having 3 kids rather than just the 2 that you had?

 

I guess, I'm just not understanding what you meant when you posted "I lament your lack of responsibility" because it sounds like your blaming the only responsible parent that her kids have.

 

Human responsibility begins by taking responsibility of your own backyard before you go complaining about the neighbor's yard. If not, it comes across as hypocrisy, IMO.

[nittygritty]

And that is of course a choice in a free world that you're entitled to make. but with no grounding other than a personal desire?

That's selfish. Full stop and all about it.

Don't worry though. I was selfish too.

 

 

I just hope it serves as a warning to others. Judging by the disproportionate quantity of parents I have met, who agree it was not their best decision, and who regret it big time, it hasn't worked.

 

 

Unfortunately, many parents do not realize that the kids they are raising are Human beings.

 

Parenting human beings is an important job. Many people aren't capable of parenting another human being. Breeding is not parenting.

 

Interestingly enough its "the disproportionate quantity of parents who regret having had kids big time" that I've got a problem with.

 

What kind of human beings do you think they raise?

Edited February 16, 2008 by nittygritty

[Geishawhelk]

Unfortunately, many parents do not realize that the kids they are raising are Human beings.

 

Parenting human beings is an important job. Many people aren't capable of parenting another human being. Breeding is not parenting.

 

Interestingly enough its "the disproportionate quantity of parents who regret having had kids big time" that I've got a problem with.

 

What kind of human beings do you think they raise?

 

My point precisely. Thank you for this - well spotted - !

I did say this earlier in the thread, but it bears saying again:

 

I cannot believe the extraordinary hoops and measures people have to go through to be able to give a child a warm, secure, safe and happy home, therough adoption. Vetting procedures, Police checks, health checks, home visits, their age is looked at, their religious beliefs are looked at, their race is looked at, their finances are looked at, their home domestic arrangements are looked at, suitability is looked at - it's a minefield and an absolutely shocking emotional nightmare - with no guarantee at the end that the adoption applicants will be successful.

You even have to go through almost the same procedures here, in the UK, if you want to adopt an animal from a rescue Centre !

 

Yet any couple who chooses to (and who can) have a child naturally, with the result that the woman becomes pregnant - undergoes no such similar procedures! "Ah Ms Jones? You're pregant? Well done, lovely! Now, we'll book you in now to the hospital of your choice for the delivery!"

Are they suitable parents? Do they have sufficient funds to bring up the child? is the home big enough? What is their religious persuasion? Are they going to stay together? What are their views on child-rearing? Do they believe in smacking, or are they against it? What kind of schooling do they intend to provide? Are they smokers? Are they drinkers?

Who knows?

Who cares?

By the time any of these questions are being asked - if at all - the mother's already 4 months pregnant.

 

And I really don't want to discuss the amount of homes where the mothers are under 15... very serious problem here in the UK....

And somethimes, (some may cry "all too often!!") a parent is left entirely on their own to bring up the children, because the other parent refuses for whatever reason to step up to the plate... That makes me so mad!!

[Geishawhelk]

...nor did an immaculate conception take place.

An 'Immaculale Conception' is not a virgin birth, by the way. It's something quite different. But i digress....

 

Are you scolding her for having 3 kids rather than just the 2 that you had?

No, I'm not even scolding. I'm 'criticising her for having had kids 'with only a cursory nod to how much my procreation would negatively affect the world.'

THAT'S what I find irresponsible.

 

Human responsibility begins by taking responsibility of your own backyard before you go complaining about the neighbor's yard. If not, it comes across as hypocrisy, IMO

I couldn't agree more. And as I have said, if I could turn the clock back, and change things so that I had given more thought, consideration and deliberation as to why precisely I was deciding to have children, I would. And I'd be childless.

That is not to say that I wish my children had never been born.

That is not what I am saying, ok? Just to clarify.

[nittygritty]

My point precisely. Thank you for this - well spotted - !

I did say this earlier in the thread, but it bears saying again:

 

I cannot believe the extraordinary hoops and measures people have to go through to be able to give a child a warm, secure, safe and happy home, therough adoption. Vetting procedures, Police checks, health checks, home visits, their age is looked at, their religious beliefs are looked at, their race is looked at, their finances are looked at, their home domestic arrangements are looked at, suitability is looked at - it's a minefield and an absolutely shocking emotional nightmare - with no guarantee at the end that the adoption applicants will be successful.

You even have to go through almost the same procedures here, in the UK, if you want to adopt an animal from a rescue Centre !

 

Yet any couple who chooses to (and who can) have a child naturally, with the result that the woman becomes pregnant - undergoes no such similar procedures! "Ah Ms Jones? You're pregant? Well done, lovely! Now, we'll book you in now to the hospital of your choice for the delivery!"

Are they suitable parents? Do they have sufficient funds to bring up the child? is the home big enough? What is their religious persuasion? Are they going to stay together? What are their views on child-rearing? Do they believe in smacking, or are they against it? What kind of schooling do they intend to provide? Are they smokers? Are they drinkers?

Who knows?

Who cares?

By the time any of these questions are being asked - if at all - the mother's already 4 months pregnant.

 

And I really don't want to discuss the amount of homes where the mothers are under 15... very serious problem here in the UK....

And somethimes, (some may cry "all too often!!") a parent is left entirely on their own to bring up the children, because the other parent refuses for whatever reason to step up to the plate... That makes me so mad!!

 

I think we agree in many ways but our views of it all and reasoning are different. Probably its just miscommunication.

 

I have to break down a problem to its simplest form to see the big picture.

 

The first human beings who inhabited the planet were primitive people. Cavemen or to be politically correct these days I'll use the term "Cave people".

 

Even though humans have learned throughout existance better ways of living or PC ways of living, we are all still basically "Cave people" we just have better caves and loincloths or fig leafs depending on people's belief systems.

 

Human beings sometimes complicate the art of existance more or less than necessary.

 

We can look at less complicated creatures like animals and see that they instinctively know how to care for their offspring. They love, nurture, teach and care for their own til their offspring become independent and leave their tribe to go out into their world. However, there are animals that eat their offspring or eat their parents after they've been loved, nurtured, taught and cared for.

 

Human beings are supposed to be more intelligent than animals but for whatever reason some human beings are only capable of functioning at a primitive level. Some function the same as animals that eat their offspring or parents.

 

If the damaged human beings wipe out all of mankind or "people kind" then there will be no human beings left to record the problems of the planet. History will stop until an organism evolves or is created again.

 

I'm guessing that your concerns are about the planet as a whole having enough resources for human beings to survive, am I understanding this right?

 

If so, then what I'm saying is that I see human beings as being the planets most precious resource. Without human beings none of it really matters, to me anyway.

 

Perhaps it was selfish of me to have two kids to add to the overpopulation of the planet. I think that if parents do a good job of raising their offspring perhaps the future generations of the planet will have learned better ways of living that solve the planets need for more survival resources.Its possible that other planets will offer human beings more resources.

 

History has shown that human beings are capable of adapting, surviving and hopefully learning new and better ways of living. If not, then logically its either back to the basics or evolving into something else, the unknown afterlife perhaps.

[nittygritty]

An 'Immaculale Conception' is not a virgin birth, by the way. It's something quite different. But i digress....

 

 

No, I'm not even scolding. I'm 'criticising her for having had kids 'with only a cursory nod to how much my procreation would negatively affect the world.'

THAT'S what I find irresponsible.

 

 

I couldn't agree more. And as I have said, if I could turn the clock back, and change things so that I had given more thought, consideration and deliberation as to why precisely I was deciding to have children, I would. And I'd be childless.

That is not to say that I wish my children had never been born.

That is not what I am saying, ok? Just to clarify.

 

I'm not trying to offend you and I truly do not think that you wish that your children were never born. You have adapted and survived. Your daughters have as well. Its the quality of life that causes concern.

 

I can empathize with what has happened between you and your daughter's because of the pain that comes thru your posts on this thread.

 

You felt that you did everything a parent could do and a crisis occured that resulted in abandonment. Each party has personal injuries.

 

Perhaps both parties are stubborn or selfish or justified. It doesn't really matter if it was a crisis induced behavior or genetic behavior or learned behavior, it just is.

 

I can't understand your situation because I've not experienced it, that I do understand.

 

But I also understand that as long as all of you are breathing the relationship has a chance of being repaired. I hope that happens for you and your daughters.

[mammax3]

and

 

 

 

This is why I'm confused...You seem to be contradicting yourself...

 

 

I don't lament your response. I lament your lack of responsibility. See your first quote, above....

 

Mhmm, I see why you may be confused.

 

Let me see if I can clarify...

 

When the decision to have kids was made, environmental concerns was not on the forefront of my mind. Now that I have the 3 kids I try, as stated in my second post, to minimize my footprint and theirs. As I grow and mature I make choices based on past situations and experience and one of these choices is to try to live in more environmental harmony than previously.

 

I think a lack of responsibility may be seen by some as procreating one 'extra' time than someone else sees fit, but another may see a lack of responsibility by using plastic shopping bags and driving to the corner store in their H2 to pick up a microwaveable processed food snack.

 

But that's a tangent to your initial post.

 

I happen to agree with your post to nittygritty about how adoptions for animals is more regulated than who can get pregnant naturally. As a result some people parent less effectively and less successfully than their ability to carry a child to term - hence the 15 year old children giving birth in the UK you mentioned.

[mammax3]

No, I'm not even scolding. I'm 'criticising her for having had kids 'with only a cursory nod to how much my procreation would negatively affect the world.'

THAT'S what I find irresponsible.

 

 

I couldn't agree more. And as I have said, if I could turn the clock back, and change things so that I had given more thought, consideration and deliberation as to why precisely I was deciding to have children, I would. And I'd be childless.

That is not to say that I wish my children had never been born.

That is not what I am saying, ok? Just to clarify.

 

 

It seems to me that it took you, what? perhaps 15 or 20 years and your childrens shunning to come to the realization you wouldn't choose to have children if you could turn back the clock. Perhaps you'd never have made that choice if you were still an active participant in their lives. Perhaps you'd never have gone to France in the first place. Perhaps one would never 'choose' to love knowing it'll no doubt end in heartache of some form.

 

I don't mind your criticism, or your judgement since you're basing it on very little and I don't know your value system to determine if your opinion matters to me. You replied pretty hot off the mark so I would guess environmentalism is important to you. But I don't think having children and environmentalism are mutually exclusive.

 

I think a healthy discussion (with as many points weighed and debated) about environmentalism and procreating (not child rearing) without heavy judgment and criticism has the potential to enlighten all readers and teach us all better ways to be gentle to earth.

[Geishawhelk]

The thread was commenced, and is based on 2 premises:

ONE: that parenthood isn't as wonderful a vocation as it is cut out to be.

 

too many young people embarking upon parenthood have absolutely no idea how traumatic, all-encompassing, time-consuming and exhausting an experience it's going to be. From day one until the day they die, with no respite, no time off, no holidays, no breaks, and often, no money. They see the baby, pretty baby, so proud, and don't have a clue as to the minefield they have to negotiate, that lies ahead of them.

 

I really, truly believe there should be programmes implemented to teach people, universally, what Prenthood really means, without the 'rose-tinted' spectacles. Honestly, I do.

I personally would have found such a programme invaluable.

Did anyone here, really know what they were letting themselves in for? Really? Truly? Did anyone official ever take you to one side an say, "ok, you realise that"....?

Did anyone come across any programmes, literature or any form of information about long-term parenting and the associated responsibilities?

In view of the stringent adoption procedures, being what they are, don't you think such measures should exist for 'natural' parents?

 

TWO:

That to have children in the current socio-economic climate, with so much emphasis being made in our lives with regard to carbon footprints, population explosions, immigration and world unrest, is not really a sensible option. The world could do with a little slowing down on it's increase. There's nothing foolish about this, I don't think...?

 

A healthy discussion is at one point going to contain some judgement and criticism. Some people will take some comments highly personally, even if they are intended in no way to be either judgemental or critical.

 

However, you make a good point, and I think I over-stepped the mark.

I am sorry I got het up under the collar. I apologise, really I do, Im not normally so vitriolic.

 

At 51 maybe the menopause is kicking in. That's a whole new thread....!!

So if you would be kind and generous enough to accept my apology, and try to sort the sensible content from the frankly insulting part, I' be grateful.

Sorry mamma3.

[nittygritty]

The thread was commenced, and is based on 2 premises:

ONE: that parenthood isn't as wonderful a vocation as it is cut out to be.

 

too many young people embarking upon parenthood have absolutely no idea how traumatic, all-encompassing, time-consuming and exhausting an experience it's going to be. From day one until the day they die, with no respite, no time off, no holidays, no breaks, and often, no money. They see the baby, pretty baby, so proud, and don't have a clue as to the minefield they have to negotiate, that lies ahead of them.

 

I really, truly believe there should be programmes implemented to teach people, universally, what Prenthood really means, without the 'rose-tinted' spectacles. Honestly, I do.

I personally would have found such a programme invaluable.

Did anyone here, really know what they were letting themselves in for? Really? Truly? Did anyone official ever take you to one side an say, "ok, you realise that"....?

Did anyone come across any programmes, literature or any form of information about long-term parenting and the associated responsibilities?

In view of the stringent adoption procedures, being what they are, don't you think such measures should exist for 'natural' parents?

 

TWO:

That to have children in the current socio-economic climate, with so much emphasis being made in our lives with regard to carbon footprints, population explosions, immigration and world unrest, is not really a sensible option. The world could do with a little slowing down on it's increase. There's nothing foolish about this, I don't think...?

 

A healthy discussion is at one point going to contain some judgement and criticism. Some people will take some comments highly personally, even if they are intended in no way to be either judgemental or critical.

 

However, you make a good point, and I think I over-stepped the mark.

I am sorry I got het up under the collar. I apologise, really I do, Im not normally so vitriolic.

 

At 51 maybe the menopause is kicking in. That's a whole new thread....!!

So if you would be kind and generous enough to accept my apology, and try to sort the sensible content from the frankly insulting part, I' be grateful.

Sorry mamma3.

 

As generalized statements, I agree.

 

I can see where the concept of having a baby seems selfish but the responsibility itself is anything but selfish. Unless a human beings lack of responsibility and irresponsible behavior starts to invade another human beings backyard, so to speak.

 

While the basic concept of human beings taking responsibility for all human beings on the planet is a nice utopic ideology its an impossible, unrealistic task.

 

There is primitive behavior in civilations all over the planet but the problems occur when irresponsible primitive behavior represses the advancement of civilization. There will be no advancements to civilization if the expectation when creating new human beings is that other human beings will be made responsible for responsibilities that do not belong to them.

 

When the balance of giving and taking becomes unbalanced, everyone will either move forward or backwards. Its important that everyone begins by taking responsibility of their part in the scheme of it all.

Edited February 17, 2008 by nittygritty

[woodsie65]

Hi

 

I have been reading this thread with quite some interest. Am I correct in reading that you had an affair at the end of your marriage? Only reason I am questioning this is due to a comment you made in respect of adultery in divorce proceedings? I am wondering if, this being the case, this could be behind the behaviour of your daughters? I understand this is not the question you are asking but perhaps may explain their behaviour?

[Geishawhelk]

Hi

 

I have been reading this thread with quite some interest. Am I correct in reading that you had an affair at the end of your marriage? ....I am wondering if, this being the case, this could be behind the behaviour of your daughters?

 

Mea Culpa, yes. I never said I was perfect.

I just wanted you to think I was....:laugh:

 

I cannot in all honesty ever hope to 'justify' my affair, neither do I seek a 'way out' by saying "I couldn't help it, it just happened".

That to me is B/S, and much as I cannot abide the hypocrisy and pretense in others if they were to cite these excuses, neither would I ever presume to use them myself.

I fell in love, very easily, with someone who made me feel worthwhile, loveable and special.

He still does.

Nearly 4 years down the line, our feelings for one another are stronger than ever.

However, I am 'realist' enough to know that nothing in Life is permanent.

I do not know (as does anyone else) what the future holds for certain. Life has a weird way of pulling the rug from under your feet, and toppling you in an entirely unexpected way.

Carpe Diem.

I live for the present, but am not swept away by it.

I have no doubt whatsoever that my two daughters were more than convinced by this issue to take the stance they have.

I can understand it, up to a point.

As I hope, you will have seen, I have never condemned them, nor judged or criticised them for their decision. I have repeatedly said they have their side to relate, and I cannot presume therefore to either think for them, or reason anything here as if on their behalf.

My only bewilderment is that it has gone on for such a long time, and to such an extreme, given the closeness we once sincerely enjoyed.

I am of the opinion that to harbour resentment and animosity is extremely damaging and limiting. It prevents any movement forward, and can be irreparable. It has to be worked at from both sides, but I can do nothing, it seems, unless I receive a signal from them that a reconciliation may be on the cards...

 

Thank you for highlighting this. Good point.

[woodsie65]

Mea Culpa, yes. I never said I was perfect.

I just wanted you to think I was....:laugh:

 

Hi - I am not here to judge anybody - it just occurred to me that this could be a possible reason!

 

You said also that your marriage was pretty much perfect to the outside world where you presented a united front to your children. As far as they were concerned Mum and Dad were solid and together. Then mum leaves for another man and they see dad left behind picking up the pieces.

Clearly if he was smarting from your departure (particularly with another man involved) he could have projected this to your girls who would then see their father in pieces and automatically make you the villain of the peace.

I speak from experience as the eldest of four kids whose mum left to be with another man - and saw the devastation it caused my dad. I don't condemn my mother for leaving my father - it was the right thing for her to do. But having to witness his breakdown made me very defensive of him and very very bitter toward her. (I am now 42 and have had a lot of support and counselling for this)

 

In addition to you finding a new love, your faith also became a big part of your life. Perhaps your girls interpret this as you choosing to leave them behind? I am only second-guessing here and may be way off!!

Did you ever have the opportunity to speak with them frankly about how you still loved them etc after you left? I kind of get the impression you didn't but again may be wrong

 

I guess what I am trying to say is that maybe if you still had the strong loving bond with your girls you would not be posing the question you did initially? Perhaps you ask the question because you are hurting from their withdrawal from your life - rather than because you truly believe this? I hope you appreciate that I am just trying to put a different perspective on things and not to criticise or condemn your beliefs in any way!

 

I hope that you can find a way to meet with your girls some day - and rekindle what you had. Surely if the relationship was so strong. with time and work it could be resurrected? Your girls must miss that relationship too? I say that as a daughter who has lost that connection with her mother.

 

I wish you luck and love:)

[Geishawhelk]

Mea Culpa, yes. I never said I was perfect.

I just wanted you to think I was....:laugh:

 

Hi - I am not here to judge anybody - it just occurred to me that this could be a possible reason!

 

No I know...I'm just having a giggle with you. In fact, I like your interest. it's spot on.

 

You said also that your marriage was pretty much perfect to the outside world where you presented a united front to your children. As far as they were concerned Mum and Dad were solid and together. Then mum leaves for another man and they see dad left behind picking up the pieces.

Clearly if he was smarting from your departure (particularly with another man involved) he could have projected this to your girls who would then see their father in pieces and automatically make you the villain of the peace.

 

I think in actual fact you have hit the nail on the head. I think I mentiuoned that perhaps this projected image we decided upon presenting together, might certainly have given a false impression. so as you rightly say, to see the whole thing suddenly shatter (as opposed o seeing cracks appearing) will certainly have had a tremendous effect.

I just want to relay something here. I fully appreciate, yet again, that you simply have my account here, but it is as it happened, without embelishment.

The house we jointly own, in France, is now sold.

All legal matters have now been deal with. All that remained was for me to go back to France to pick up all my personal belongings and items within the house that, although they served a collective purpose throughout the marriage, we agreed were mine. My ex- also had his share of similar items.

We arranged a time for me to go over, which entailed taking time off work, putting my dog in kennels and hiring a suitably roomy vehicle to transport everything away. 3 days before my departure, i receive an email telling me that the 5 days I thought I had would be reduced to 3, because he and the girls had to return to the UK for his sister's funeral.

I was absolutely dumbstruck and devastated. I knew nothing of this at all, and to have it relayed to me in such a manner was both shocking and distressing. I had known her for our entire married life and we had got on very well.

I rang him, and he told me that the reason I had not been informed was that I wasn't family any more. However, it appears my mother had been told of her illness six weeks earlier, and it's terminal condition. She simply hadn't mentioned it to me because it had been information 'in passing' and she had assumed I knew. My eldest daughter's boyfriend and family all knew, as well.

When I got to France, I asked him to leave me a house-key, because then i would still be able to enter the house to remove stuff, evben after thy had left for the UK. I would add I have a perfect right to ask this. The house is in joint names, and there is no proviso in our divorce agreement to either exclude me, or to deny me access, nor did he have the right to prevent my entry by changing the locks.

he refused because he said he didn't trust me.

At this point, (without my prior knowledge) my partner, who had come over to france with me to assist) quietly spoke to my ex- (it had all been quite amican

ble and friendly, we had cups of tea together, and he helped us shift stuff....) and basically told him that if after 23 years of marriage he felt he couldn't trust me then he'd never known me at all. My ex-HAD t know that I am one of the least dishonest people ever. I do not lie, I would never try to do anything underhand behind his back, and it was wrong of him to project his own resentment onto me, and make suppositions he knew were both spiteful and unjustified. There was no shouting, no anger, no animosity. Just man-to-man discussion, it seems...

as it was, I managed to clear all of my stuff in the 3 days. It was tight. But he had agreed to give me a key. However, with the proviso that I would have access to the downstairs back store-room only, where my stuff was. All the other rooms would be locked.

I know you only have my word for this. I am sorry I can't give you chapetr verse, page number or reference... but it happened as I said.

 

With this kind of animosity still going on - and he has a girlfiend now, with whom he is really very happy - I find it hard to believe he can move forward. He's so stuck in Anger, I feel for him, I really do.

Does that sound hypocritical? I'm sorry... The printed word on the page is awful at conveying things in the way they're meant...

 

I'll have to come back later, i need to go out.

[older_no_wiser]

I think you will find that pain, hurt and anger - and I presume in the case of your ex husband - shock - can make most people react badly. As I've said before, you seem to want to intellectualise things but that isn't the way the bulk of people work. Also, as somebody who has experience of a spouse having an affair with somebody else, trust is highly unlikely on his part given the earlier betrayal.

 

meg

[Geishawhelk]

older, yes, I see your point, really I do, thank you.

I just find him really difficult to get my head round because he says and does many things that are contradictory...

Like he chased the pensions company AND his financial adviser to get the division of the pension sorted because, as he put it, "I think that the sooner you can get something put by that you can add to, the better it would be for you. Financial security is going to be important for you when you need it..."

Then he haggles over the most ridiculously low sums of money when it comes to deciding how much a chest of drawers from Ikea is worth five years after we bought it....

 

I'm only trying to intellectualise things, not people. Things I can get my head round. And mainly, it's my viewpoint I'm trying to intellectualise... people? Can't get my head round them either....

 

You're right, I DO take on board what you say.

FWIW, I have been at both ends of the 'infidelity' issue though. I have not only been a 'wrong-er', I have also been a 'wrong-ee'...

 

Focussing the discussion on me and my situation, is secondary to the main reasons behind the thread. I'm hesitant - really I am - to make this 'all about me' - I'm not shy or 'ashamed' to be discussing 'me'... but it can confuse the issue in hand.

However, I thank you for your post.