LONG POST - Is it worth having kids?

[shanny]

I recently did a post here about being childless by choice (which I proudly am). I don't see what the point is in having children, but I find myself to be the minority and hear that it is a wonderful experience for those who do it. I am a very proud "mom" to my dog and cats and that's all I ever want. They provide unconditional love, they don't have to go to soccer practice or get new shoes every month and they're cuter anyway. I'm SO HAPPY with my decisions but I constantly get told stuff like "you'll never experience true happiness unless you have kids" and (believe it or not) "you're not a real woman unless you have kids" (I told that person off and enjoyed it thorougly by the way). People are just so ignorant to anything that's outside of the "norm". Sorry... kinda vented here but it's a great topic.

[Green]

So excuse me asking... and I'm not trying to be argumentative or confontational - if you have nothing you can add to the thread for dsiscussion - what was the point of posting?

 

Actually I did add something, and whether your trying to be argumentative or confrontational you are. Read over my posts and try understand POV

[stillafool]

I recently did a post here about being childless by choice (which I proudly am). I don't see what the point is in having children, but I find myself to be the minority and hear that it is a wonderful experience for those who do it. I am a very proud "mom" to my dog and cats and that's all I ever want. They provide unconditional love, they don't have to go to soccer practice or get new shoes every month and they're cuter anyway. I'm SO HAPPY with my decisions but I constantly get told stuff like "you'll never experience true happiness unless you have kids" and (believe it or not) "you're not a real woman unless you have kids" (I told that person off and enjoyed it thorougly by the way). People are just so ignorant to anything that's outside of the "norm". Sorry... kinda vented here but it's a great topic.

 

 

I'm in the same boat. So happy about my decision not to have children but other people do try to make you feel bad about it. I think it should be to each his own but society doesn't view it that way.

[annieo]

Three-and-a-half years.

There is no question that where they live plays a part.

 

I don't think he has the strength of character to be able to administer discipline either... I'm not quite sure what you'd call it...

When I went to France a month ago, to tie up loose ends and pick up my stuff, the house was a pigsty... I have never seen such a filthy place...Bear in mind my eldest daughter (25) doesn't have a job, and her B/F lives with her, in the home....

When I live here, we used to have one dog and two cats, until one had to be euthanised, due to a car accident.

Now they have 5 cats, (all previously feral) which have the run of the place, and sleep on the dining room table, and on the clean washing... the cat littler is used by all of them indoors, and looked as if it hadn't been emptied in weeks.... it stank.

 

My youngest (17) had acquired 3 pet rats, and kept them in her bedroom...picture teen bedroom, posters on the walls, clothes everywhere but the closets and chest of drawers... no way of telling what was clean or dirty.....the shutters were never opened, so goodness knows how long it had been since that room - or the rats - had seen daylight...

And she's there four or five nights a week. The other two/three, she spends with her B/F....

They also had 3 guinea pigs. They were kept in the upstairs corridor, again, I won't describe the conditions. And again, due to the layout of the house, no daylight.

I was utterly mortifed.

I would never have let it get to this state. For a start, if they couldn't look after them as necessary, they wouldn't have had so many pets....

I don't think any of them know what a vacuum cleaner is....And the cobwebs and general chaos is just gobsmacking....I'm telling you, here's a definite lack of 'a Mother's Touch'.... and it shows....

 

The girls were 'friendly but distant'...The way you'd act with an unwelcome lodger, leaving....you know? While I gathered all my bits and pieces, belongings and personal items and loaded them into the van, they were floating around, but keeping out of the way. When I was ready to leave, and they knew I was going, they didn't come and say goodbye.

Their father looked helpless, inept and inconsequential. He seems to have no backbone. He works away from home during the week, and is home friday evenings until Monday morning. He seems to have no influence or direction.

I didn't meet his new G/F (they have been together for nearly a year-and-a-half) but my partner did. He gets the impression that she is his female doppelgänger....

 

The house sale was completed and signed on the 29th of February.

My ex- asked the new owners for an extension until the end of March, for them to remove everything.

He's going to need longer than that, if the house is to look clean and decent....

 

Ahhhh well.....

 

The state of the house (a shambles, obviously) reminds me of my ex h in the first few years after I left. He just let things go to hell, and my kids had to live there (still do) every other week. It made me sick to leave them there. But he is basically a good dad, just a procrastinator and a slob.

I got a knot in my stomach reading your post.

[Kenyth]

The reason for having children and raising them to be productive, successful, and well mannered adults is simple. It's our job, duty, right and responsibility all in one. As you can see by the state of the world, many people don't take their work seriously. If done right, it's one of the most satisfying accomplishments you'll ever make.

[Geishawhelk]

kenyth, I see what you're saying...

But isn't 'IF' a big word....?

and there are no guarantees, no matter how 'right' you believe or hope you've done it.....

[blind_otter]

kenyth, I see what you're saying...

But isn't 'IF' a big word....?

and there are no guarantees, no matter how 'right' you believe or hope you've done it.....

 

The only thing guaranteed in life is that one day you will die. Any other guarantees are all smoke and mirrors and self-delusions, IMO.

 

You can only do your best, as with anything, and hope for a positive outcome.

 

If I only ever did things which had "sure thing" outcomes -- well I wouldn't be able to do anything. Except your regular bodily functions and whatnot.

[Geishawhelk]

...."Whatnot".....??!

 

:laugh:

 

Oooooh, the mind boggles!!

 

[older_no_wiser]

Geisha,

 

I still think you are judging and are affected by your emotional standpoint - the very one that you then try to deny by arguing from a position of logic. "I am a bhuddist" type stance. I am not trying to criticise you. I am just giving you my impression because sometimes the impressions we give others allows us to see ourselves more fully or in a new light.

 

So, what I wondered as I read one of your earlier posts was - why are you mentioning the state of your ex husband's house, the darkness, mess, pets etc.???? What has that to do with you and why is HIS way any "worse" than yours? (And please don't say that's not what you meant. You woudn't have commented if that's not what you meant.) he has different priorities - so what? He's working full time, travelling and the sole care-giver for his kids. Maybe he figures the dusting isn't high on his priorities? The point is, who are you to criticise?

 

Also, the young pregnant girls in the UK. I live in the UK. I am well aware of the problems. I also think there are TONS of myths surrounding this, encouraged by the press and bought into by most. Have you ever had to be a single parent on benefits in the UK???? Because I have and I can tell you there is not one person who has ever had to do so who would comment on the great financial incentive provided by trying to raise a child in such circumstances. That has to be one of THE biggest myths in Britain. It sucks. Utter soul destroying, life-sapping, deeply depressing, stressful, difficult situations to be in EVER. If any teenage girl finds living at that level preferable to what she had previously, all I can say is the previous life must have been pretty bad. Maybe THAT is the incentive!

[Geishawhelk]

Geisha,

 

I still think you are judging and are affected by your emotional standpoint - the very one that you then try to deny by arguing from a position of logic. "I am a bhuddist" type stance. I am not trying to criticise you. I am just giving you my impression because sometimes the impressions we give others allows us to see ourselves more fully or in a new light.

 

I completely take your point. But just because, as you say, 'I am Buddhist' it doesn't mean I get it 100% right 100% of the time... heck, half those figures....

Incidentalaly, there's nothing wrong with being Buddhist and having emotions. Buddhism isn't about getting rid of emotions and functioning purely on logic.

The main premise is to be able to detach from them and understand that, whilst still experiencing them, they are not real.

 

So, what I wondered as I read one of your earlier posts was - why are you mentioning the state of your ex husband's house, the darkness, mess, pets etc.????

Because had I still been there, the state of the house would be vastly different. It was always clean and tidy when I was there. I'm witnessing the change and transformation from the viewpoint of the consequences of my leaving. Not as something that they - or he - are necessarily to 'blame' for.

 

What has that to do with you and why is HIS way any "worse" than yours? (And please don't say that's not what you meant. You woudn't have commented if that's not what you meant.) he has different priorities - so what? He's working full time, travelling and the sole care-giver for his kids.

This is not the full picture. My eldest daughter is 25. At her age, I was married, pregnant, running a home and holding down a job.

From what I have seen wih my own eyes - and from what my ex- himself has told me - she does precious little, and that, reluctantly.

He is not her carer. As a 25-year old, she is no longer 'in his care'. He has complained about this to me, but hasn't done anything about it, it seems.

the younger daughter is 17 and lives at home part-time, and at other times stays with her B/F. I'm not saying any of this as either a defence or an argument. I'm merely clarifying the situation.

 

Maybe he figures the dusting isn't high on his priorities? The point is, who are you to criticise?

It was high enough on his priorities to complain about it when I was there.... he was fastidious and fernicketty.

I'm just puzzled by the about-turn....

 

Also, the young pregnant girls in the UK. I live in the UK. I am well aware of the problems. I also think there are TONS of myths surrounding this, encouraged by the press and bought into by most. Have you ever had to be a single parent on benefits in the UK???? Because I have and I can tell you there is not one person who has ever had to do so who would comment on the great financial incentive provided by trying to raise a child in such circumstances. That has to be one of THE biggest myths in Britain. It sucks. Utter soul destroying, life-sapping, deeply depressing, stressful, difficult situations to be in EVER. If any teenage girl finds living at that level preferable to what she had previously, all I can say is the previous life must have been pretty bad. Maybe THAT is the incentive!

 

I appreciate completely what you're saying. Truly. And i know that what you say is irrefutable....But having been an assistant at a young person's Hostel and refuge, and having worked with dozens of teenagers, I'm just repeating what I heard directly from them. And I have never talked to the Press about this....

 

However, having in my dim and distant past been a 'victim' of erroneous newspaper reporting, I would never take anything I read in the press as anything even bordering on the near-truth....

I prefer to go by first-experience word-of-mouth. Which is what I commented on.

Edited March 5, 2008 by Geishawhelk

[Lionblade]

I read about half the pages in this thread so I'm not sure if this is repeated and sorry if it is but is there something you're leaving out? Something you're not telling us Geisha? You say your daughters were wonderful in an almost best friend type of relationship and you didn't even go through the teenage phase with them yet they cut you out of their life completely after a divorce? My parents got divorced and it was my mom who wanted out & I remember being bitter about it at first but the thought of cutting her out of my life never even crossed me once. I've known many people who had divorced parents and side with one parent but never one single one who acted like your kids. If they were young you can say they were confused, immature, etc. but for adult kids to do that to a mother, she would have done something that truly upset them. Especially if you were so close to them & they now don't want to be a part of their life. Did you cheat on your ex-husband? Leave them for another family? Something? Anything? I honestly cannot believe that any child can have a wonderful relationship with their parent and want to cut them off completely & suddenly simply because one parent just wanted a divorce [without anything like an affair or other things happening].

 

EDIT: Just checked the last few threads and it looks like at the very least, you did cheat on him. You turned your back on your family; that's the truth. If you had just divorced him without an affair then I'm a 100% sure your kids would have forgiven you. Children who are close with their parents and find out that one parent betrayed their other parent, they themselves will feel like they've been betrayed. I'm pretty sure that if I was in the same situation as your kids, I'd have acted the same back when they divorced. Thankfully that's not the case.

Edited March 21, 2008 by Lionblade

[Lionblade]

Too darned right! My life is happier and more joyful now than it has ever been before... I'm not suggesting my life sucks at all... Where have I given that impression?

 

 

They made their decision practically overnight, and completely arbitrarily....The fact that their father and I split up was directly, none of their business. they were not involved, and both my ex and I wanted - and still want - to keep it that way. But they took an almost instant decision to completely cut me off. In less than a week, they decided they no longer wanted me in their lives. How can that have been something they 'saw in me'?

 

 

Ah. I see. you haven't read the thread. Otherwise you would have a full and detailed description of their upbringing.

Perhaps if I may say so, it would be more constructive if you were to read the history before making random comments....?

Yes. I know it's long.

Yes, I know it's tedious.

Yes, I know it would take a long time.

But at least your comments would be better informed and less patronising.

 

 

Sweety.

 

I'm sorry but did I just read that right? When parents divorce, it's none of the children's business? The emotional trauma and all the things that go with it is not their business? Besides the affair and the fact that you did leave them for another man, I can see with your attitude why they did side with their father.

Edited March 21, 2008 by Lionblade

[Geishawhelk]

When parents divorce, the reasons for the separation - the deep, nitty gritty fundamental reasons - are not things children should be exposed to.

All the associated trauma - which my ex and I did everything to minimise at the time - was enough for them to have to deal with, without involving them in matters that frankly, would have meant airing our dirty linen in public. The girls didn't deserve to have to deal with that, as well as the permutations and repercussions of our separation. That's what I meant.

 

Again, this has all been explained earlier on in the thread, and clarified in depth.

 

My youngest daughter went to school the following day, and admitted to her best friend, tearfully, what had happened.

Her best friend -also the child of divorced parents - turned to her, and simply replied,

"yeh, it's a pain, but you'll get over it! Just don't get involved!"

[Lionblade]

In the eyes of your children, you went away to be with another man leaving their father and moving out of the house they live in. All they get now is post cards, gifts, etc sometimes without any real interaction & a father who has to support two daughters by himself. If you look at it from their POV, you abandoned them so I don't understand why you're so surprised by their attitude towards you.

[Geishawhelk]

Well, I guess if you had a window on the life I had with them previously, it might help you understand it more. Especially when we had dreadful issues, particularly with the younger one, of a very difficult relationship with her father.

I have already stated on numerous occasions (as I'm sure you've seen, by reading the thread thoroughly) that I am completely aware of there being two sides to every story. I know you've only got a version of events from my side. I also know that their perspective is bound to be different. That's the whole point isn't it...?

I have never said anything in the entire thread to insult, demean or ridicule either my ex- or my children. I've just "told it like it is".

 

You had to be there.

But as you weren't, I guess you'll just have to take my word for it.

Or not.

The choice is yours.

 

It doesn't really matter to me.

You see...

Nothing you say or any opinion you hold, can possibly affect me or hurt me any more than this situation has already.

Can it?

[Kenyth]

Just do your best with what you have and drive on. It's all you can do. You're bound to make mistakes in life. Some of them are bound to be bad ones. It's how you deal with them that makes you better. So many try to rationalize bad choices after the fact. This defective defensive mechanism robs you of your ability to have closure and improve yourself. Evaluate yourself objectively, take other views into consideration. If you have to, research and/or get counseling. Decide where your mistakes or shortcomings occurred. Accept them and learn from them. Most importantly, forgive yourself, let it go, and try to do better next time. This is an ongoing process in life. Don't give up and lock yourself away in a cage of anxiety because you feel powerless. You can make things better. Maybe not much better, and certainly not perfect, but you do have the power to improve things with time. You also have the power to start over, with better results.

 

Good judgement comes from wisdom. A lot of wisdom is learned by making mistakes. A lot of those mistakes come from bad judgement. Don't beat yourself up. Learn, move on, and improve.

 

Some may say, "That's easy for you to say!", and would be correct. Many of the answers in life are very easy to say, but very difficult to do. Life is hard, and we all have to find and carve our own paths.

[Never_Again]

I have asked a number of people about having children. The answer I get 90 percent of the time is almost word for word: "I love my children more than anything else in the world...but if I had it to do all over again I don't think I would have them." Again, THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT THE MAJORITY SAY.

 

I think the instinct to reproduce trumps all rational good sense. Kids are a major responsibility for which you get no immediate return and, at the end of the day, there are no guarantees they will have much to do with you later on. There are cases where children have murdered their parents.

 

It's been my experience that people who are from happy and generally healthy, functional families want children to replicate their earlier lifestyle.

 

With all that said, I can think of no good reason to have them. Perhaps subconsciously many of us are programmed to "be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth."

 

Wow, that is so sad... and cynical.

 

If I had to do it all over again (granted, my child is still very young), I would do the same thing. I plan to have at least one more when I am in a stable, healthy marriage.

 

Even though I am a single mother and it is a financial struggle, I think that the benefits FAR OUTWEIGH the downsides. Motherhood is the absolute most amazing thing that has ever happened to me.

 

Everyone is different, though. And if you don't absolutely LOVE kids and love everything about childhood, then you probably shouldn't have them.

[Never_Again]

Additionally, I don't want to mold my child into anything he doesn't want to be... like many parents try to do.

 

All I want for my son is for him to be healthy, happy, and live a good life doing what makes him and those that surround him happy.