Ms. Red Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 I didn't want to thread-jack so I started a new one. In another thread posters seem to call a GF a cheater even though her BF knows all about her escapades with other women. The gender is not what I'm questioning. I am questioning why it is called cheating when the partner is aware of it? Am I the only one who doesn't consider this cheating? I also am curious because I repeatedly asked my H if I hooked up with someone for sex would he care. He always responded that he knew the difference between sex & love & that for him it was love & if I hooked up with someone it would be purely for sex. I all but directly told him I was going to hook up with a MM (whom I met through my H) for sex & he consistently told me he wouldn't care. Fast forward a few months after my "hook-up" & H is moved out for reasons that had nothing to do with my sex with MM. There was a potential my H would come across evidence of what I did so I told him about it. I thought it be better to hear it from me first. His response: I can't believe you cheated on me! I told him it wasn't cheating because he knew it was going to happen. He agreed he figured it would happen but then said he would have cheated on me the same if the opportunity had presented. Once again "cheated on me the same" calling me a cheater again even though he figured it would happen. Link to post Share on other sites
Lizzie60 Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 IMO.. if a SO is having sex with a same sex partner it's not cheating.. if there is no homosexuality involved... what I mean is that for most men, if their gf or W have sex with another woman they don't consider that cheating... but it's a totally different story if it's with a male. If my husband would have a sexual encounter with a male just for the experience or for the thrill... I wouldn't consider that cheating.. because I know there would be no danger for him to leave me to be with the other guy... as long as it doesn't happen every other day and that he would prefer having sex with him rather than me.. but if it's an occasional thing... I don't consider this cheating... Link to post Share on other sites
Lizzie60 Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 Oh and I should add... I agree with you.. if the spouse knows about the sexual encounters with the same sex partner.. it's opened.. therefore it's not cheating. Link to post Share on other sites
OpenBook Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 The gender is not what I'm questioning. I am questioning why it is called cheating when the partner is aware of it? Am I the only one who doesn't consider this cheating? Yup, I think it's cheating. But the only opinion that really matters here is your H's. Link to post Share on other sites
OWoman Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 I didn't want to thread-jack so I started a new one. In another thread posters seem to call a GF a cheater even though her BF knows all about her escapades with other women. The gender is not what I'm questioning. I am questioning why it is called cheating when the partner is aware of it? Am I the only one who doesn't consider this cheating? I also am curious because I repeatedly asked my H if I hooked up with someone for sex would he care. He always responded that he knew the difference between sex & love & that for him it was love & if I hooked up with someone it would be purely for sex. I all but directly told him I was going to hook up with a MM (whom I met through my H) for sex & he consistently told me he wouldn't care. Fast forward a few months after my "hook-up" & H is moved out for reasons that had nothing to do with my sex with MM. There was a potential my H would come across evidence of what I did so I told him about it. I thought it be better to hear it from me first. His response: I can't believe you cheated on me! I told him it wasn't cheating because he knew it was going to happen. He agreed he figured it would happen but then said he would have cheated on me the same if the opportunity had presented. Once again "cheated on me the same" calling me a cheater again even though he figured it would happen. I usually use the word "cheating" in scare quotes, partly as I don't buy into the notion at all, and partly because I don't really understand how it's used. It seems for some people ANY sex involving anyone else but the H and W is "cheating"; for others it's sex without permission (an open relationship wouldn't be "cheating", to them). So I suppose, Ms. Red, the question would be - your H KNEW about it but was he OK with it or did it happen despite his reluctance? If he was cool with it - as you intimate above - then to turn around later and call it "cheating" is disingenuous. On the other hand, if he wasn't really cool with it and you went ahead anyway, with his knowledge but without his agreement, that's perhaps "cheating", but I'd rather term it defiance. My MM's W said to him, some time back, that she didn't care if he was unfaithful to her, so long as he was not disloyal. Was that permission for him to sleep around? I suspect not, more likely some intellectual rationalisation of her own history, and no doubt she'd still consider his behaviour "cheating" once she actually accepts that he has left her FOR SOMEONE ELSE, not just as a bargaining ploy to get her into MC! For myself, I'm not the possessive type, and I don't "believe in" exclusivity, so were someone to dabble with someone else I wouldn't regard it as "cheating", provided I knew. If I didn't know, the dishonesty would be the deal breaker, not the dabbling. Link to post Share on other sites
frannie Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 Some people call any relationship with someone not your partner 'cheating', whether or not it's same sex (which I don't think you were asking about) or the partner knows or consents to the relationship. Personally I don't think it can be called 'cheating' if there is consent. Evidently there is a difference between going behind someone's back, and engaging with someone else with your partner's consent. Those who say it's 'all cheating' need to make a distinction of some kind to allow for that difference, but I'm not sure how they do that (or if they do). Link to post Share on other sites
OWoman Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 Your moral standard shouldn't be dependant on what someone else(partner does or doesn't) approve of. But bent, by this argument then if your moral standard says sex outside of the R is fine, then it's not "cheating", whether or not your partner approves? I'm not sure I agree with that - I reckon you'd need to have discussed it first, and laid that moral position (or any other) on the table. Relationships are negotiations, surely, not just one person insisting on their way? Link to post Share on other sites
HenryII Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 If someone is in a committed R why would they need to have sex outside the box? Is it just an ego thing or another notch on the belt? Link to post Share on other sites
Lizzie60 Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 If someone is in a committed R why would they need to have sex outside the box? Is it just an ego thing or another notch on the belt? No...it could be a fantasy or a new experience they want to try... why not? unless you experiment in life.. you don't know what's out there... Link to post Share on other sites
Author Ms. Red Posted January 3, 2008 Author Share Posted January 3, 2008 No...it could be a fantasy or a new experience they want to try... why not? unless you experiment in life.. you don't know what's out there... Yup, my reason being the 2nd. And I don't regret it either. I need to stop being hung up on the word "cheater" & know as someone said, 'it really matters what my H thinks.' He has maintained after his initial minor surprise that he really could give a $hit about what I did. He spent a couple of weeks in the summer with the MM who is part of a a big group of friends that meet up once a year. He never said a word about it to him & treated him as he always did in previous gatherings through the years. Link to post Share on other sites
OWoman Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 If someone is in a committed R why would they need to have sex outside the box? Sometimes there's no sex in the box... Link to post Share on other sites
White Flower Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 My MM's W said to him, some time back, that she didn't care if he was unfaithful to her, so long as he was not disloyal. Was that permission for him to sleep around? I suspect not, more likely some intellectual rationalisation of her own history, and no doubt she'd still consider his behaviour "cheating" once she actually accepts that he has left her FOR SOMEONE ELSE, not just as a bargaining ploy to get her into MC! For myself, I'm not the possessive type, and I don't "believe in" exclusivity, so were someone to dabble with someone else I wouldn't regard it as "cheating", provided I knew. If I didn't know, the dishonesty would be the deal breaker, not the dabbling. I'm going to have to pull out my dictionary for this one. I thought loyalty was the same as faithfulness? OK, I've looked them both up on Microsoft. Faithfulness implies not having sex outside the M, whereas loyalty implies sex can happen outside the M as long as the spouse doesn't leave the M. Does anyone agree with this? Interesting that MM said to me just before it turned PA that he was loyal to a fault. I really thought he meant he would never sleep with anyone else but his W. He did once express disappointment in not being faithful to her and I tried to comfort him by saying he was faithful enough by not leaving her. I guess this is the loyal part. But to answer the OP's question; no, I don't believe it is cheating if the spouse knows and agrees to it. Link to post Share on other sites
OWoman Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 But to answer the OP's question; no, I don't believe it is cheating if the spouse knows and agrees to it. Knows and agrees to - what if they know, but aren't really agreeing? They're resigning themselves to it rather than consenting happily? Does that make a difference? (You know, like the way the court differentiates between consent and submission in a rape trial.) WF your comment on loyalty was interesting. MM mentioned to me some time back that he'd stayed with his W so long because he knew that if he left her, she'd probably never find another guy (given her aversion for counselling or head doctors); so doing so would be to condemn her to a life of being alone forever. When I suggested to him that loyalty should be based on respect rather than pity he was genuinely surprised. I suppose when one is so used to being manipulated, one forgets one actually has a choice. Link to post Share on other sites
bish Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 I didn't want to thread-jack so I started a new one. In another thread posters seem to call a GF a cheater even though her BF knows all about her escapades with other women. The gender is not what I'm questioning. I am questioning why it is called cheating when the partner is aware of it? Am I the only one who doesn't consider this cheating?. its not cheating if the partner is aware of it AND doesn't care. otherwise simply having knowledge of someone getting some on the side is cheating. Link to post Share on other sites
bish Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 IMO.. if a SO is having sex with a same sex partner it's not cheating. Well I have just one question for you....uh....what???? Link to post Share on other sites
bish Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 No...it could be a fantasy or a new experience they want to try... why not? unless you experiment in life.. you don't know what's out there... Diseases.........and a condom won't even help you there all the time...things do get into it from the rim. Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra_X30 Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 Yup, my reason being the 2nd. And I don't regret it either. I need to stop being hung up on the word "cheater" & know as someone said, 'it really matters what my H thinks.' He has maintained after his initial minor surprise that he really could give a $hit about what I did. He spent a couple of weeks in the summer with the MM who is part of a a big group of friends that meet up once a year. He never said a word about it to him & treated him as he always did in previous gatherings through the years. Who cares what you call it! Cheating, Adultery, Disloyalty... whatever word you choose the action remains the same. The point is this... what kind of person does that? Is that not what your driving at? Your mildly offended that the term cheater be applied to you, because you were slightly honest about your intent. I mean obviously you were not that straight forward or he would have already known. So what kind of a person do you think you are? Link to post Share on other sites
OWoman Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 Yup, my reason being the 2nd. And I don't regret it either. I need to stop being hung up on the word "cheater" If you're cool with it, then whatever labels anyone else uses simply won't stick. Link to post Share on other sites
White Flower Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 Knows and agrees to - what if they know, but aren't really agreeing? They're resigning themselves to it rather than consenting happily? Does that make a difference? (You know, like the way the court differentiates between consent and submission in a rape trial.) WF your comment on loyalty was interesting. MM mentioned to me some time back that he'd stayed with his W so long because he knew that if he left her, she'd probably never find another guy (given her aversion for counselling or head doctors); so doing so would be to condemn her to a life of being alone forever. When I suggested to him that loyalty should be based on respect rather than pity he was genuinely surprised. I suppose when one is so used to being manipulated, one forgets one actually has a choice. Great point, OW. Now we need to get the WS to understand the very important difference between respect and pity. I wonder how MM's W would feel if she knew he said he stays so that she won't end up without medical insurance and other financial means. Doesn't she want him to stay for love and nothing else? Or is he actually respecting her by staying? I really am asking out of curiosity here. Link to post Share on other sites
PoshPrincess Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 As far as I am concerned, sex outside the M with consent is not cheating. Not that I agree with it personally, but each to their own. I just can't see how if you really love someone you could consent to them having a physical OR emotional relationship with someone of the opposite sex (or a PA with someone of the same sex). Sounds to me like Ms Red's H was just looking for a get-out clause! Link to post Share on other sites
OWoman Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 I wonder how MM's W would feel if she knew he said he stays so that she won't end up without medical insurance and other financial means. Doesn't she want him to stay for love and nothing else? Or is he actually respecting her by staying? I really am asking out of curiosity here. Well, that BS on that post of Kat's some time back was saying she chose to stay for the material comforts, so I suppose it's hard to know! My MM's W has certainly SAID things implying she'd only want MM if he loved her, but yet when they split once before (when he first started counselling, and started standing up to her abuse - she left, because he'd become "impossible") she was suicidal within days, hated being alone, was at his door every day begging him to take her back, to "have pity on her". And, because he was worried how freaked out the kids were by her behaviour, and BECAUSE HE FELT PITY FOR HER, he took her back (once she agreed to MC - which took her most of a year to agree to: she really had to hit rock bottom first!). Link to post Share on other sites
OpenBook Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 I'm going to have to pull out my dictionary for this one. I thought loyalty was the same as faithfulness? OK, I've looked them both up on Microsoft. Faithfulness implies not having sex outside the M, whereas loyalty implies sex can happen outside the M as long as the spouse doesn't leave the M. Does anyone agree with this? Historically, this is correct. Up until the Victorian Age (about 150 years ago), infidelity went hand-in-hand with marriage. There were no romantic expectations for marriage; it was a calculated business partnership arrangement. And the wives accepted their H's straying as long as they retained their own stature as Queen of the Castle. Link to post Share on other sites
OWoman Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 Historically, this is correct. Up until the Victorian Age (about 150 years ago), infidelity went hand-in-hand with marriage. There were no romantic expectations for marriage; it was a calculated business partnership arrangement. And the wives accepted their H's straying as long as they retained their own stature as Queen of the Castle. Many still are Ever notice how women shopping for men so often check out the car he arrives in, what quality clothes he's wearing, what brand of watch, etc, before they choose who they'll flutter their eyelashes at? Link to post Share on other sites
PoshPrincess Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Many still are Ever notice how women shopping for men so often check out the car he arrives in, what quality clothes he's wearing, what brand of watch, etc, before they choose who they'll flutter their eyelashes at? Hell yeah, there are plenty of women like that around! I know a woman who was intent on getting with a particular guy because of his successful career (= "lots of money"). She got him, the kids, the million pound house and all the creature comforts that go with that. She pretty much knows he cheats but appears to turn a blind eye, I guess because she doesn't want to give up the lifestyle. Link to post Share on other sites
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