Trialbyfire Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 This reminds me of the thread in the OW/OM forum where the W flips out and tells her kids her H was "f*cking 'So and So." The general consensus was that the W should have been strong for her children. If you were the child of these two individuals, how would you feel about yourself? As her friend, I hope you stay in their lives and support them emotionally. They are going to need all the love they can get. I think the cheater should suck it up this time, like the father he should have been in the first place, and beginning now, start to put his children first, before his own selfish requirements. Link to post Share on other sites
malaclypse Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 So...is someone with a mental health issues, responsible for their actions? Suicide can be a mental health issue, but it can also be a 'rationally chosen' path. If you think that it's the H's fault that W killed herself...do you also think it's the W's fault that the H cheated on her? and BTW, I'm male. Link to post Share on other sites
Virgo1982 Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 Where people are on "suicide watch" it's also the lifting of the mood that makes the watchers relax their guard - they think things are on the up, the risk is less - and are then caught off-guard when it happens. That makes sense. I thought the two were related but didn't know why. Thanks! Link to post Share on other sites
SpanksTheMonkey Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 I'm sorry but I agree with those that are saying the H in a way mostly caused his wifes death cause he did and in this case so did the OW! To say thats not so is just wrong and danceing around a maybe touchey spot for some of the OW here. And the drunk driver sinario is spot on as well these hurtfull relashionships held behind others backs have outcomes and consiquences. Just like any other situation people choose to put themselves and more so others in some say not so. But then again the drunk never dose think about the people he will harm or kill when he gets behind the wheel dose he no because hes to caut up in his own world and what makes him feel good at that moment. If the H hadent had the A the wife wouldent have killed herself bottom line. And the fact that she did it in front of the house were the two of them were held up togher just painfully points that out even more. If the pain of the A wasent the final driveing force and she was just sad/depressed in genral then she would have done it in her own home no. Link to post Share on other sites
OpenBook Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 So...is someone with a mental health issues, responsible for their actions? Yes they are, in the eyes of the law, as long as they can discern right from wrong. Link to post Share on other sites
Trialbyfire Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 Suicide can be a mental health issue, but it can also be a 'rationally chosen' path. If you think that it's the H's fault that W killed herself...do you also think it's the W's fault that the H cheated on her? and BTW, I'm male. Want to take that all the way back to the birth of the OW? That she should never have been born. I think the cheater should have been a real father from the get-go, putting his children first, before all. He should not have allowed himself to break the bonds of matrimony and practiced infidelity. Link to post Share on other sites
Trialbyfire Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 Yes they are, in the eyes of the law, as long as they can discern right from wrong. Do you know for fact the wife could discern right from wrong when she committed suicide? Link to post Share on other sites
ElvenPriestess Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 Everyone has a sense of right and wrong, extenuating circumstances unfortunately cloud that better judgement. Link to post Share on other sites
Virgo1982 Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 I think the cheater should suck it up this time, like the father he should have been in the first place, and beginning now, start to put his children first, before his own selfish requirements. Oh he's already suffering for his actions big time. I can't explain how bad I feel for those children. I know the mother was in pain, but the BS is human like anyone else and is not without flaws. Her children needed her. This is a sad case and she must have hurt deeply, but it's also said that suicide is a selfish act for anyone. Even moreso if you have children. She left the children and drove over to his place to committ suicide. C'mon TBF. C'mon... Link to post Share on other sites
malaclypse Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 Want to take that all the way back to the birth of the OW? That she should never have been born. I think the cheater should have been a real father from the get-go, putting his children first, before all. He should not have allowed himself to break the bonds of matrimony and practiced infidelity. Yes, of course he should have been a 'real' father, and either he should have stayed faithful, or he should have divorced his wife before seeing OW. But that's not what happend. Unfortunately, real life is not like that most of the time. Dear Trialbyfire, why do you think is it ok to blame-shift in the one case (suicide) but not the other (cheating)? Please enlighten me. Link to post Share on other sites
Trialbyfire Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 Oh he's already suffering for his actions big time. I can't explain how bad I feel for those children. I know the mother was in pain, but the BS is human like anyone else and is not without flaws. Her children needed her. This is a sad case and she must have hurt deeply, but it's also said that suicide is a selfish act for anyone. Even moreso if you have children. She left the children and drove over to his place to committ suicide. C'mon TBF. C'mon... I'm going to ask you the same question that I asked OpenBook. Do you know for fact that she could discern right from wrong, when she committed suicide? What mother in her sane mind would desert her 5 children? Link to post Share on other sites
SpanksTheMonkey Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 Suicide can be a mental health issue, but it can also be a 'rationally chosen' path. If you think that it's the H's fault that W killed herself...do you also think it's the W's fault that the H cheated on her? and BTW, I'm male. I think if he was that unhappy with the wife then he should have been a man about it and told her. And tryed to work on the marrage or end it properly. But not ran around behind the wifes back untill she couldent take it anymore and killed herself. Yes people have choises and in theroy no one forced her to do it. But then again no one forced him into another womens bed before trying to work on the marrage eather. He chose that himself what choise did the wife have in the affair? looks to me the H was makeing most of the choises and the wife was around for the ride untill the poor women couldent handel it anymore. Link to post Share on other sites
Trialbyfire Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 Yes, of course he should have been a 'real' father, and either he should have stayed faithful, or he should have divorced his wife before seeing OW. But that's not what happend. Unfortunately, real life is not like that most of the time. Dear Trialbyfire, why do you think is it ok to blame-shift in the one case (suicide) but not the other (cheating)? Please enlighten me. Read my responses about sanity to a number of other members. Link to post Share on other sites
OWoman Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 I'm sorry but I agree with those that are saying the H in a way mostly caused his wifes death cause he did and in this case so did the OW! Which means you MUST be saying (if you're being consistent) that the BS caused the H to have the affair in the first place. (see the exchange above on Logic 101). I don't buy that argument because I believe people have free will, but you're free to believe what you want. Link to post Share on other sites
ElvenPriestess Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 Each of them was responsible for their own actions. Him cheating, her suicide. Plain and simple. One was obviously a response to the other. But it is what it is, nothing will change what has happened. All we can hope for is that spouses and other SO's think twice before choosing such hurtful paths. Link to post Share on other sites
malaclypse Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 Read my responses about sanity to a number of other members. Yes, because sanity is a black/white issue and suddenly, instantly the moment someone crosses the border into insane-land, all personal responsibility disappears??? Hint. It's not. Link to post Share on other sites
Virgo1982 Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 If you think that it's the H's fault that W killed herself...do you also think it's the W's fault that the H cheated on her? Good insight. And good luck with getting anything more than lawyer talk. Fault? I don't know. But the way she carried this out tells me something. Link to post Share on other sites
malaclypse Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 Good insight. And good luck with getting anything more than lawyer talk. Fault? I don't know. But the way she carried this out tells me something. Please elaborate. Link to post Share on other sites
Trialbyfire Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 Yes, because sanity is a black/white issue and suddenly, instantly the moment someone crosses the border into insane-land, all personal responsibility disappears??? Hint. It's not. Check with the law. Link to post Share on other sites
Trialbyfire Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 Good insight. And good luck with getting anything more than lawyer talk. Fault? I don't know. But the way she carried this out tells me something. Yup, sane mothers kill themselves and desert 5 children. Link to post Share on other sites
Trialbyfire Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 Overall, I see a lot of CYA going on here. Are there issues of personal culpability, a concern here? Link to post Share on other sites
malaclypse Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 Check with the law. It requires an in-depth evaluation of a person's state of mind by a professional to decrease the degree of personal responsibility. And if there are sanity factors that limit this responsibility, it's not a 'free ticket'. It limits responsibility, it doesn't not absolve anyone of it. Link to post Share on other sites
SpanksTheMonkey Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 Which means you MUST be saying (if you're being consistent) that the BS caused the H to have the affair in the first place. (see the exchange above on Logic 101). I don't buy that argument because I believe people have free will, but you're free to believe what you want. She may have caused it he may have caused it we will never know. Actualy from what #1 said sounds like the wife honestly wasent the wiser. So insted of the H saying hey wait a min I'm not happy here. To the W then giveing her the chance to make the wrong wright he ran behind her back and jumped into bed with the OW a selfish act. So sure in a way the idea that the W may have caused the A may hold water. But also the H was wrong for not trying to fix the M before doing what he did which in the end did lead to the Ws suicide how can you not see that? Link to post Share on other sites
Trialbyfire Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 It requires an in-depth evaluation of a person's state of mind by a professional to decrease the degree of personal responsibility. And if there are sanity factors that limit this responsibility, it's not a 'free ticket'. It limits responsibility, it doesn't not absolve anyone of it. Convince me that a sane mother of five who has always been a good mother, would kill herself and desert 5 children. Link to post Share on other sites
Virgo1982 Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 I'm going to ask you the same question that I asked OpenBook. Do you know for fact that she could discern right from wrong, when she committed suicide? What mother in her sane mind would desert her 5 children? Infidelity has not caused all of these other people to committ suicide. It may cause bitterness and resentment, but many stick around to spread the "cheer." You're giving her a pass because there was infidelity involved. I don't know what's up with that, but you would be flaming her if there hadn't been any infidelity involved. Parents are supposed to be strong for their children. He was weak for having an affair and she was weak for committing suicide. He has a chance to grow. She does not. Link to post Share on other sites
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