Do you really believe in god? From agnostic.

[Geishawhelk]

IUnfortunately, I don't really believe in god in general so switching to a Buddhism is definitely far beyond my ability (as far as religion goes: Buddhist gods, Buddhist hell yes there is Buddhist hell, reincarnation). I really dont see how anyone can grow up with one set of beliefs and then honestly change mid-life. You are either set in your beliefs enough in early childhood to believe something or not. However, deciding to follow the general spiritual practices that Buddhist abide by is a different story and I have a tremendous deal of respect for there religious practices as my brother follows many Buddhist practices. But I would not actually try to follow Buddhism devoutly because like the bible the rules are loose and the actual beliefs are far from what I would ever want to believe.

 

 

This shows the classic ignorance of one who has superficially examined a different tack, but has only gleaned a rudimentary and flawed knowlege on the subject. I do not say this to either insult or belittle you. Sincerely. it's just the case.

you are totally in error here, and I withdraw from the discussion, because a large amount of what you say is based on supposition, not research. And as this topic is not the one up for discussion, I will not divert the post unnecessarily.

 

good luck my friend, I wish you well, in all sincerity.

But the discusssion for me, is long-winded and too convoluted for written debate.

I would prefer that we were sharing a coffee and doughnuts...it would be far more fruitful.

 

With metta,

 

G.

[DutchGuy]

I don't believe in a god.

I think that most people that do believe don't want to think it over because they fear the outcome.

I always get a "but there HAS to be a god"-vibe from religious people, they are so happy believing in god that they don't even want to think about being an Atheist. And when you have strong hope for something you'll eventually start to believe it. Also, isn't it a virtue in religion not to question it?

[JamesM]

I always get a "but there HAS to be a god"-vibe from religious people, they are so happy believing in god that they don't even want to think about being an Atheist. And when you have strong hope for something you'll eventually start to believe it. Also, isn't it a virtue in religion not to question it?

 

This is the idea that people believe in a God because it is a kind of wish fulfillment. Yet the same is true of many who do not believe in a God...there is that hope that if there is no God, then I do not have to answer to a God. It is hard for one who has not experienced God to understand God...even he or she believes in a God.

 

I still think the question here is going to be...can we be married with one believing in a God and one not believing in a God. And the answer is yes, but only if it is a agree to disagree relationship. While children are thought to be way off in the future, the fact that you will most likely have them must be considered. If marriage is forever, then raising children will be an issue. If you do not mind that they are brought up in a home with God, then this will not be an issue.

[j_hunt_12]

Hmm. Where to start. Yeah

Geishawhelk: Yeah, we're off topic I know very little about Buddhism I don't claim I do. I read the Dhammapada many times. I found it quite interesting. When I wanted to look more into Buddhism and read other texts I just found a lot I don't personally like. Yes I know there are different sects. I didn't have the time, patience, or belief to try to look more into the different branchs, or Buddhism in general.

 

I will say, I stongly dislike how most Americans have transformed Buddhism into what they want it to be because they think it is a trendy thing to do. And there are many. Maybe you are not one. But peace to you too, that long conversion over coffee would be interesting indeed.

 

Dutchguy: Yes, one of the main principles of most Christian denominations is not to question it. That is one of my main disagreements with it. People that don't question anything are the biggest threat to society I can possibly imagine. I don't think people will argue with me here if your on this thread.. lol

 

One thing about Orthodoxy that I like is the emphasis on deciding beforehand which religion is right for you, and their slightly higher acceptance that people can go to heaven without strictly abiding by their set of rules. They've also accepted that the Bible was in nature full of ambiguities from the beginning; therefore, they gathered and set rules about how to go about religion, however orthodox those beliefs may be.

 

Hokeyreligions: I respect everything you said. I agreed with most of it, and I can tell you've done a lot of thinking yourself on the topic. Good argument and well said. I am agnostic I've never claimed to be atheist, maybe I'll come to some really huge realization about my beliefs in a few years, but I just don't see it happening, but I could be wrong..

 

Trialbyfire: Yeah I think religion is a good way to raise children... my parent's did it for me and I think I turned out ok.

 

to some more hostile earlier post: I say yeah, there could be a god.. So just in case, I would rather be good on earth so that he could judge me accordingly, if he exists. I think any just god would be good to those who where good. However, I think a lot of people think this but get too lost about what "good" is, the other large chunk of society truly does not believe at all even if they go to church, therefore they fall into COMPLETE selfishness. Is joining a religion that I agree in principle immoral because I can't come to the terms that I truly, honestly, 100% believe?

 

I'm not posing it as a rhetorical... I'm really asking.

 

As for my lady friend, this is a translated conversation we had once-

GF: I think, if we're together you will go to church with me every week.

ME: No, I wont, really, I'm not just going to change what I believe. I might go once a month, but thats it. I know what I believe (that was a lie.. sorry)... really.

GF: I knowww.. It's ok.. really... but i still think you'll go with me every week.

 

I'm a complete sucker... I probably would

 

Haha.. I'd say 50% of girls from where she's from are extremely religious in practice. But, in general, the place, not so much (drugs, prostitution... very common; crime rates are high; steeling, lying - common practice). I live here and love many of the people i know but, in many aspects, this is true. It is still very "religious" but people don't truly follow it except a small portion of mostly women. She is used to trying to change people. She liked me, large reason, because I actually follow the Christian ethical rules a lot better then most the people she grew up with (like actual practice dealing with sins, not the belief aspects) even if I'm the "wishy-washy agnostic-spiritual-sometimes athiest" westerner. I've been living here a while and know the country very well, and she has lived in the U.S. knows it well. We understand each others culture and religious beliefs and talk about it. I, honestly, don't think we'll have too many problems with religion. Many other problems might come, but that's a different subject. I really just mentioned her to begin with because she and my friend, the priest, got me thinking on the subject of "what do I believe?"

 

ehh... long.. but I'm practicing my spelling, so it's good... by spellcheck I only missed atheist... very good for me

Edited January 9, 2008 by j_hunt_12

[DutchGuy]

This is the idea that people believe in a God because it is a kind of wish fulfillment. Yet the same is true of many who do not believe in a God...there is that hope that if there is no God, then I do not have to answer to a God. It is hard for one who has not experienced God to understand God...even he or she believes in a God.

 

Wrong.

I really want god to exist.

But after some questioning I found out that he doesn't.

[JamesM]

Wrong.

I really want god to exist.

But after some questioning I found out that he doesn't.

 

 

Actually, I did not say that everyone who does not believe in a God does not want God to exist, nor I doubt were you saying that everyone who believes in a God wishes him to exist. But I do think that is quite logical to think that the "wish fulfillment rationale" would apply both ways to some/many people...if it were true.

 

Why did you really want Him to exist?

 

What has led you to believe that He does not exist? And who did you question and what answers did you receive? What research did you do?

[DutchGuy]

Actually, I did not say that everyone who does not believe in a God does not want God to exist, nor I doubt were you saying that everyone who believes in a God wishes him to exist. But I do think that is quite logical to think that the "wish fulfillment rationale" would apply both ways to some/many people...if it were true.

 

Why did you really want Him to exist?

 

What has led you to believe that He does not exist? And who did you question and what answers did you receive? What research did you do?

 

I'd like an entity watching over me and keeping me from getting hurt.

And I really would like to go to heaven and see all my loved ones that passed away. I'd also like that constant spiritual high, that god seems to give (I'm a happy person, but I don't feel like 'Hallelujah' all the time).

 

But it's not real.

 

As a kid I tried to have contact with god, but there is nothing there, no answers, no light, no happy feelings, no joy, no salvation, just you talking to yourself. Also the stories from the bible didn't make sense to me, Jesus walking on water and curing lepers, hell... it's so childish. The worst they could think of back then was burning alive, if the bible was written today they would probably describe hell as eternal loneliness. It's made up. As a child I figured out that much.

Now I study biochemistry and know all about evolution. It makes, as incomplete as the theorie is now, so much sense in biology, pathology, fysiology. From the few religious people in my class, none of them doubt evolution, they all are 'forced' to incorperate evolution into their belief.

And as I see it, if the bible is wrong on one thing, why would I believe in any of it?

[Moose]

I'd like an entity watching over me and keeping me from getting hurt.

And I really would like to go to heaven and see all my loved ones that passed away. I'd also like that constant spiritual high, that god seems to give (I'm a happy person, but I don't feel like 'Hallelujah' all the time).

 

But it's not real.

 

As a kid I tried to have contact with god, but there is nothing there, no answers, no light, no happy feelings, no joy, no salvation, just you talking to yourself. Also the stories from the bible didn't make sense to me, Jesus walking on water and curing lepers, hell... it's so childish. The worst they could think of back then was burning alive, if the bible was written today they would probably describe hell as eternal loneliness. It's made up. As a child I figured out that much.

Now I study biochemistry and know all about evolution. It makes, as incomplete as the theorie is now, so much sense in biology, pathology, fysiology. From the few religious people in my class, none of them doubt evolution, they all are 'forced' to incorperate evolution into their belief.

And as I see it, if the bible is wrong on one thing, why would I believe in any of it?

My conclusion;

 

You've never genuinely accepted Christ as you Saviour, have you?

[JamesM]

I'd like an entity watching over me and keeping me from getting hurt.

And I really would like to go to heaven and see all my loved ones that passed away. I'd also like that constant spiritual high, that god seems to give (I'm a happy person, but I don't feel like 'Hallelujah' all the time).

 

But it's not real.

 

Again, what brought you to that conclusion? Were you raised to believe in a God?

 

As a kid I tried to have contact with god, but there is nothing there, no answers, no light, no happy feelings, no joy, no salvation, just you talking to yourself.

 

What did you expect to happen?

 

Also the stories from the bible didn't make sense to me, Jesus walking on water and curing lepers, hell... it's so childish.

 

Why is the unbelievable (to you) considered childish? Is hell childish?

 

The worst they could think of back then was burning alive, if the bible was written today they would probably describe hell as eternal loneliness. It's made up. As a child I figured out that much.

 

Actually, hell in the Bible is described as more than simply burning alive. Here is a link for a complete description. And it is described as an eternity apart from God, or eternal loneliness.

http://www.therefinersfire.org/hell2.htm

 

Now I study biochemistry and know all about evolution.

 

So, you base your atheism on what you have been taught about evolution and your interpretation of the Bible? Is there that possibility that your interpretation is wrong and what you are taught is not correct?

 

From the few religious people in my class, none of them doubt evolution, they all are 'forced' to incorperate evolution into their belief.

 

Did you know that many Christians believe that God used evolution? And scientists say that a belief in the theory of evolution does not exclude the belief in a God?

 

And as I see it, if the bible is wrong on one thing, why would I believe in any of it?

 

First off...who says it is wrong? Second, who says the creationist's interpretation is the correct one? And cannot the story of Genesis be an allegory and evolution be what God used?

 

In other words, why is your belief in evolution a reason to believe that there is no God?

 

Personally, I wonder whether you quit your research a bit too early. It seems that you have based your eternal future (or lack of one) on a theory (right or wrong) which is less than 200 years old.

[j_hunt_12]

Yeah I don't not believe in god but I look at sites like this... http://www.therefinersfire.org/hell2.htm

and I kind of just laugh. That is another one of the reasons why I have so much trouble believing. It really is childish. I remember when all the kids used to draw the torture chambers in class on the back of test... weird? yeah but everyone did it at my school for some reason. It was in second grade. Why would someone write that in the Bible? of course they would write it, back then they wanted to scared people into believing to bring order for there own purposes. You know there were more books of the New Testament when the religion started to take off. A group of people who had political influence chose which ones would become the New Testament. When you question it (in many denominations), they just say you aren't supposed to question it and you'll will go to hell if you do.

 

As for Jesus, I excepted him as my savior when i was like 9, thought I truly believed it for a very short while, but fell out like so many do. But I've always had a huge amount of respect for Christ in an academic and spiritual sense. I cannot just say I completely disbelieve what he tought and when talking about Christ specifically, from a logical point of view this is my weak side. I know that it may very well just be my faults from being brainwashed for that train of thought as a child, but once I read the whole New Testament of only what Jesus said... the little red leters only... and felt that it was a good message of peace and forgiveness... I liked what I saw and got a very different view about Christ than what I grew up with. Does that mean I think the Bible is not full of mistakes? No. It really is. Most of growing up, to me church was simply going somewhere every Sunday to watch people desperately trying to justify the Bible's faults.

 

Dutchguy I think most of what you say is completely accurate, but honestly proving or not proving "god" in general is an impossible task. Evolution doesn't really cut it. The Bible is much easier to tackle.

[quankanne]

Is joining a religion that I agree in principle immoral because I can't come to the terms that I truly, honestly, 100% believe?

 

not really, because you're still seeking for answers. Which is pretty much what we all are doing, you know? Even the so-called staunch believers.

[quankanne]

You've never genuinely accepted Christ as you Saviour, have you?

 

intellectually, or spiritually?

[quankanne]

Most of growing up, to me church was simply going somewhere every Sunday to watch people desperately trying to justify the Bible's faults.

 

I wonder if this is where a lot of us get hung up when it comes to spirituality: We fail to see the divine when all we seem to do is focus on the human aspect of faith. Like the pedophile priests or embezzling televangelists … baby's getting thrown out with the bathwater because we're not making sure that he's safely put somewhere while the tub's getting emptied.

 

because it's so easy to rail against faith or spirituality or belief by focusing on what's wrong with it, and we fail to find (or choose to ignore) the personal value of it.

[JamesM]

Yeah I don't not believe in god but I look at sites like this... http://www.therefinersfire.org/hell2.htm

and I kind of just laugh. That is another one of the reasons why I have so much trouble believing. It really is childish.

 

Why is hell laughable and childish? Is there not punishment and rewards in the real world? Why would this not be true on the Bible? If Hell was eliminated, would the Bible be less childish and more believable?

 

You know there were more books of the New Testament when the religion started to take off. A group of people who had political influence chose which ones would become the New Testament.

 

Where did you learn this? Do you think you could take the time to post a link that backs up your assertions?

[j_hunt_12]

How can you accept someone as your savior intellectually when your a kid. No.. I didn't, but I THOUGHT I did. It felt incredibly real for a very short time. But it wore off. How can you put 100% faith into a book that contradicts itself so many times? What are you supposed to believe in there. You know I've had so many friends that went to my church, seemed like the best of Christians then I've simply addressed this very simple logic to them and they lose their faith in such a short time. I'm not even trying to take them away from their faith, but I simply put in one logical argument and they fault, because they are delusional. I'm not talking against faith in general, but my denomination has always preached by logic, and it's simply not there in the Bible. The one thing I learned in church was how not to make an argument.

 

Yeah I should of put quote mark around "accepted him as a savior".

[DutchGuy]

Again, what brought you to that conclusion? Were you raised to believe in a God?

I wasn't raised anything as I can remember, not in a religion nor as an Atheist. I'm a critical guy, I only believe what I've experienced myself and I never experienced any of the things that religious people claim about getting out of religion. I'm not bitter, I'm just as happy now as with a god in my life. Also, being unprotected from satan I can say that he never did anything to me. There is no difference so I don't believe in god or the devil. It's easy to say that clearly I never accepted Jezus as my savior and if I would have, I'd be happier. But if I am that incapable of communicating with god, then why bother to keep trying? Clearly this thing doesn't work for me.

 

What did you expect to happen?

Contact. A spiritual experience of comfort and reassurement. But I never experienced that. I experienced nothing.

 

Why is the unbelievable (to you) considered childish? Is hell childish?

Because they seem like sensational stories for the dumb masses. I imagine some sort of fortune teller on a square surrounded by peasants shouting: "there was a guy that created the whole planet!" and the icing on the cake: "And his son could walk on water!".

 

Actually, hell in the Bible is described as more than simply burning alive. Here is a link for a complete description. And it is described as an eternity apart from God, or eternal loneliness.

http://www.therefinersfire.org/hell2.htm

 

Hell is a pit of darkness.

It is described as a lake of fire.

A place of darkness and fire...

 

Hell is a place where your soul will be destroyed

According to Scripture, Hell is eternal

'Your soul is destroyed' sounds like death as in Atheism but how can it be eternal then?

 

Hell is a place where every moment is lived in uncertainty

The Bible describes it as a bottomless pit, an abyss

I'm in this pitch black, eternal abyss... worrying what's about to happen? Some more darkness and voidance?

 

It just seems like they summed up all the negatives they could think of, nothing really definitive.

 

So, you base your atheism on what you have been taught about evolution and your interpretation of the Bible? Is there that possibility that your interpretation is wrong and what you are taught is not correct?

Yes, but if I'm wrong about my observations in the natural world, then all is uncertain. If I can't rely on how I experience life then just shoot me now. If evolution is not true then I'm living in some sort of matrix were someone is constantly messing with me, making sure that I keep believing in evolution.

 

Did you know that many Christians believe that God used evolution? And scientists say that a belief in the theory of evolution does not exclude the belief in a God?

I am aware of this, yes. But why was there never anything said about evolution in church before Darwin? And did you know that Christians believed in the Earth being flat, long after scientists proved it wasn't? And agin, the way I see it, the bible is the fundament of Christian belief, it is 100% true, if one element of the bible is wrong, why believe the rest?

 

Why believe that the smurfs are real if you question the cartoons?

Say I would believe in the smurfs, but not that they were blue and lived in mushrooms. Why the hell would I believe in them then?

 

First off...who says it is wrong? Second, who says the creationist's interpretation is the correct one? And cannot the story of Genesis be an allegory and evolution be what God used?

 

In other words, why is your belief in evolution a reason to believe that there is no God?

 

Personally, I wonder whether you quit your research a bit too early. It seems that you have based your eternal future (or lack of one) on a theory (right or wrong) which is less than 200 years old.

 

I say it's wrong.

One day god created the universe in 6 days, the other day it's an allegory about evolution. Christians started out having a 100% truth scripture and direct communication with god. Earth was flat. Being gay was sin.

Now it's all blurry, although all Christians are in contact with god (and he knows the rules) they can't come with anything consistent. Both the pro-gay as the anti-gay are convinced that god told them this.

 

If there is a person that swears to tell the truth and the first thing asked he lies about... why bother to ask him anything else?

 

I didn't quit the research mon frère, a real scientist is always learning.

I didn't base my Atheism on evolution, it was based on not believing the bible. My Atheism has strengthened because of the understanding of evolution. Your theory is only 2000 years old, there are older theories, you know.

[j_hunt_12]

Nah, I can't, but it not even a debated topic for any historian. Most denominations even accept this.

[j_hunt_12]

ehh.... I feel dirty for posting a site like this... so un academic... but I google search "other books of the bible and this came up"

 

http://www.goodnewsinc.net/othbooks/othbks.html

[Moose]

How can you put 100% faith into a book that contradicts itself so many times?

That's funny, I've yet to find a single contradiction in the Bible. Care to ellaborate?

 

This is an age old excuse IMHO.

[j_hunt_12]

not most denominations... some and few... my bad. Point is the early days of Christianity are very uncertain, it's hard to keep track of what happened to the scriptures in the first hundred years. And the leaders of the time accepted Christianity as a means of political stabilty... people controlled what happened with it. Please dont mistake me for those people that believes in these other scriptures. I dont any more than I do most of the actual bible. I really primarily read Matthew, Mark, luke, and John as a young lad in bible study. And those are very clean cut. There is a huge controversy over Revelations too.

[DutchGuy]

That's funny, I've yet to find a single contradiction in the Bible. Care to ellaborate?

 

This is an age old excuse IMHO.

 

Google: contradictions in the bible.

Pick a site and begin to argue against it.

[Moose]

Google: contradictions in the bible.

Pick a site and begin to argue against it.

Been there, done that. Every single solitary one of them are full of non-theologians, intellectual wanna be's, and un educated flamers.

 

I asked you what do YOU mean by contradictions? I'll start another thread just for this topic.

[quankanne]

You know I've had so many friends that went to my church, seemed like the best of Christians then I've simply addressed this very simple logic to them and they lose their faith in such a short time. I'm not even trying to take them away from their faith, but I simply put in one logical argument and they fault, because they are delusional.

 

I don't think that your argument of "logic" leads them to fall away, but something otherwise in them that's questioning or doubtful to begin with – and it's not unusual for a person to have crisis of faith but come back full steam ahead. Look at Mother Teresa, a real live social worker of our time … she lived with doubt but chose to plug ahead knowing there was something worth believing in, even though she was having problems with whether her work meant anything in the overall scheme of things.

 

Now it's all blurry, although all Christians are in contact with god (and he knows the rules) they can't come with anything consistent.

 

of course not: Social mores change from generation to generation, as does man's perception of things, hence "no one talking about evolution" before Darwin came on the scene. We're looking at stuff today that would blow Darwin's mind because it would have been unthinkable in his time. But it's not lying, just not possessing a full sense of awareness.

 

same thing with the "truth" of the Bible. You've got to remember that it's a book that reflects man's spiritual journey and evolution, written in metaphor so that the audience could wrap it's collective mind around these things. Do I believe that the world was created in six days? Yes and no. Yes, because I believe that with God all things are possible, but I also realize that God's schedule isn't mine nor is his concept of time similar to mine (case in point, gestating women, who are told by their doctors that based on the information given them, Baby's gonna arrive on or about X day. But we all know that Baby's gonna arrive whenever he's good and ready to arrive and not a minute before!!)

[quankanne]

and uneducated flamers

 

Moose, moose, honey – you've gotta stop doing this. Now I've got images of swishy men prancing around my brain! :laugh:

[j_hunt_12]

I dont have a bible on me in my current country of residence. Things I remember from my past: Slavery-obey your masters? doesn't contradict but it is just wrong in my opinion. Many times the New Testament explains that you will go to hell... for instance, if you sleep with your mother or if you commit adultry (keep in mind you do commit adultry by having impure thoughts, I would love to see someone say they've never had impure thoughts), but numerous times Jesus says "repent and all will be forgiven". I cant even begin to describe how many times I've seen in the Bible passages that secure you a place in hell. The grammer I read was pretty absolute. I would ask my preacher and he would say, "yeah...... but if you truly repent you can still go to heaven" (that was before he was caught with porn on the church computer. What are impure thoughts does it ever explain? It's hard to say. hmmmmm... I came across a lot more when I was 10 years old but I've given up on it entirely up until recently when I start to think about it again, which I do quite frequently.