taiko Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 God created Adam and Eve.... Adam and Eve begat Cain and Abel.... Cain killed Abel... Cain gets married... Where did she come from?? And if you're going to tell me it was his sister...and God was ok with that (which he/she must have been to not bother to create a female partner for Cain) I'd like to know why Christians aren't all shtupping their siblings if it is perfectly all right in the eyes of God. So I guess you stopped reading after the first few pages? Link to post Share on other sites
JamesM Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 I know that, what I meant was, in those days you were to be deflowered on the wedding night. How would a married woman still be a virgin? Why wouldn't have Joseph and Maria had sex? Read Luke 2. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%202&version=9; 4And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David) 5To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child. 6And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered. 7And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn. And here is the definition of "espoused wife." She was not yet his wife. Besides, she was already pregnant according to the Bible. Espouse \Es*pouse"\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. Espoused; p. pr. & vb. n. Espousing.] [OF. espouser, esposer, F. ['e]pouser, L. sponsare to betroth, espouse, fr. sponsus betrothed, p. p. of spondere to promise solemnly or sacredly. Cf. Spouse.] 1. To betroth; to promise in marriage; to give as spouse. A virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph. --Luke i. 27. http://dictionary.die.net/espouse According to the Bible, she was pregnant while she was still promised to him. This does not indicate a contradiction to me. Does it still seem contradictory to you? Link to post Share on other sites
JamesM Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 God created Adam and Eve.... Adam and Eve begat Cain and Abel.... Cain killed Abel... Cain gets married... Where did she come from?? And if you're going to tell me it was his sister...and God was ok with that (which he/she must have been to not bother to create a female partner for Cain) I'd like to know why Christians aren't all shtupping their siblings if it is perfectly all right in the eyes of God. Why is this so hard to believe? Rather than take too much space here to explain this possibility and probability...and above not a moral problem, here is a link showing this explanation to be true. http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c004.html I will quote the pertinent part: Cain was the first child of Adam and Eve recorded in Scripture (Genesis 4:1). His brothers, Abel (Genesis 4:2) and Seth (Genesis 4:25), were part of the first generation of children ever born on this earth. Even though only these three males are mentioned by name, Adam and Eve had other children. In Genesis 5:4 a statement sums up the life of Adam and Eve—“And the days of Adam after he had fathered Seth were eight hundred years. And he fathered sons and daughters.” This does not say when they were born. Many could have been born in the 130 years (Genesis 5:3) before Seth was born. During their lives, Adam and Eve had a number of male and female children. The Jewish historian Josephus wrote that, “The number of Adam's children, as says the old tradition, was thirty-three sons and twenty-three daughters.”[11] The Bible does not tell us how many children were born to Adam and Eve. However, considering their long life spans (Adam lived for 930 years—Genesis 5:5), it would seem reasonable to suggest there were many! Remember, They were commanded to “Be fruitful, and multiply” (Genesis 1:28). While today with all of the genetic defects in our bodies, according to the Bible, Man was created perfect. So, if a brother and sister married, the biggest negative of incest today was not in existence at that time. Link to post Share on other sites
JamesM Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 btw...did Adam and Eve have belly buttons? Another interesting question. And a link to give an explanation. http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/bellybutton.html Link to post Share on other sites
ElvenPriestess Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Another interesting question. And a link to give an explanation. http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/bellybutton.html Why didn't I think of that? of course. No umbilical chord, no belly button. Ha! Common sense right there. Link to post Share on other sites
taiko Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 I thought "contradictions" meant scripture A says "xxxx" but scripture B comes back and says "yyyyy". Not that we haven't proven by the scientific method, yet, how scripture C happened. Link to post Share on other sites
ElvenPriestess Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Contradictions in the scripture are about one verse contradicting another as I see it. It's certainly not about science. Link to post Share on other sites
JamesM Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 There are a holy host of books of the bible that never made it into the final draft.... Thank you Constantine and the Council of Nicaea... If anyone is interested they should grab a copy of the Gnostic Gospels (also called the Nag Hammadi Bible...named after the area of Turkey in which it was found) and read some of the other books... So, you read/watched The Davinci Code? Sophia asked the question and received the wrong answer. Read this link.... http://www.bible.ca/ef/topical-how-we-got-the-new-testament.htm One quote.... We know that the inspired writings of the first century were widely circulated among Christians of that time (see Col. 4:16 and 1 Thess. 5:27). It is clear that those early Christians held the sacred writings in highest esteem and regarded them as the basis of their religious authority And another.... Early heresies initiated by the Gnostics and others required that faithful brethren make a defense of the inspired writings. This they did, and we have the record of their defense preserved unto this day. In the process of defending the New Testament works, they actually insured that we would have historical verification of the writings that were known to be produced by inspired men. Someone has said, "in the struggle with Gnosticism the canon was made." Other Christian writers came a little later. Among these were Clement of Alexandria, Irenaeus and Tertullian. Writing in the period from A.D. 170 to A.D. 220, they made many references to New Testament books. For instance, Irenaeus mentions Paul's epistles over 200 times. Questions about the canon of Scripture were already settled long before a "church council" was convened to discuss the matter at Carthage in A.D. 397. The "council" only "confirmed" what was already known to be true. Watch this link for a different view. http://www.leestrobel.com/videoserver/video.php?clip=strobelT1090 Interesting questions and a great way to learn. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Moose Posted January 10, 2008 Author Share Posted January 10, 2008 Let's start with this one. It says the Torah shall not be added on to. (Old Testament if you wish) Then came the New Testament. Yep. There are a lot of contradictions of the old testament to the new testament.Proverbs 30:5,6 - I believe the writer, is talking about his particular, "book".....(the book of Proverbs) and not the two Testaments. Link to post Share on other sites
ElvenPriestess Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Proverbs 30:5,6 - I believe the writer, is talking about his particular, "book".....(the book of Proverbs) and not the two Testaments. Look at this Deuteronomy 4:2 "You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you. Deuteronomy 12:32 "Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it. Link to post Share on other sites
disgracian Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Moose, the gospel of John is alone in claiming that the women did not venture inside the tomb at first, but returned to the disciples, and an unnamed disciple beat Simon Peter in the race to get there first. The other three claim the women inspected the tomb first. Matthew mentions an earthquake not mentioned in any of the other accounts. Luke and Mark claim that the stone was already rolled away, in Matthew an angel rolls the stone away before their very eyes. These are very contradictory accounts. Cheers, D. Link to post Share on other sites
Pyro Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Moose, the gospel of John is alone in claiming that the women did not venture inside the tomb at first, but returned to the disciples, and an unnamed disciple beat Simon Peter in the race to get there first. The other three claim the women inspected the tomb first. Matthew mentions an earthquake not mentioned in any of the other accounts. Luke and Mark claim that the stone was already rolled away, in Matthew an angel rolls the stone away before their very eyes. These are very contradictory accounts. Cheers, D. Go back and reread post 18. Link to post Share on other sites
j_hunt_12 Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 (edited) First of all, the Old Testament is very contradictory. Especially when put up against the New (How many wives can you have?). Please don't even try to argue this with me, my church didn't pay much attention to the old. Simply Psalms and Genesis. We looked at the Old T. as the back story, but agree the rules changed after Jesus died on the cross. We looked at Genesis metaphorically to avoid anything that didn't seem logical. I remember looking at the Old T. as kind of a blur with occasional words of wisdom. New Testament: As for what you answered on the other post James: Impure thoughts = Adultery = Hell. This was written in very strait terms in the N. T. of the Bible. But you can always be forgiven? Even the truly revived and righteous fault on impure thoughts every now and then. Sure let's be devout Christians. We'll all go to hell. Maybe that’s truly what happens. More sex stuff, You're never allowed to have sex outside of marriage right? guys and girls? It's what it said in the New Testament; many passages say it's ok for guys to break that rule, but I don’t know if it's the new or old. Feel free to remind me, I found them a long time ago and forgot where they were. Those are the best contradictions I can think of. I know, small deal, but should the word not be perfect if we are to follow it with all our hearts, if it was inspired by God? I feel we are reaching a dead point on this one, so if you don’t respond I really won't take it as I proved you wrong, seriously. It happens a lot, and there is never an agreement when it comes to religion. I really no longer have the biblical knowledge to point out Bible verses, but wish I did, and not just to convince people of biblical inconsistencies:) James: I read the website you put up. I was actually not too clear on the history there, so I was interested. The point is, the Bible went through a lot it's first years and was completely decided on by people. This was a strange time in Roman history and there were many political consequences at sake. Man made the choice, and from what I've seen about Christians, in many places of the world, is that very few are actual believers... Hell is infinitely larger than heaven. It said this in the Bible. Why would 200 AD be any different? People are selfish, most don't believe. Out of all the dispersed places the Bible was in 200 AD, a few were probably off line. I don’t see why we should put our complete faith in the decisions of man at 100-400 AD. All in all, I think they did a ok job with what they had. Most of the books are fairly related to eachh other, the main books are there. I've read some of the other scriptures and they seemed out of line to me. Revelations is out of line, this book was a lot different then the rest of the N. T., but my church shunned away from this one. Children were not advised to read it. Christians are supposed to obey the Bible religiously, and the one big Christian conservative point in this argument is that, "God inspired the cannon!!". Trust in God to make sure nothing goes on for the 400 years before the official cannon was gathered. That's great, but only works if you believe, and if you do believe, how are you supposed to know exactly what to follow? Ever tried to figure out if masturbation is a sin? not easy to do. Ever had a debate at church about what the bible is trying to say? I know an answer, "well, we try to follow the bible to the best of our ability, we try to do what's right, we believe the Bible is a good guide.” This shows that the Bible is unclear in many parts and not perfect. Keep trying, trying, and believing, I honestly do really respect you for it. I don't think it will lead most people down a bad path, but I usually just try to be the best person I can. I really just wish Jesus could have wrote his own New Testament, but he didn’t. Edited January 10, 2008 by j_hunt_12 Link to post Share on other sites
JamesM Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 First of all, the Old Testament is very contradictory. Especially when put up against the New (How many wives can you have?). Please don't even try to argue this with me, my church didn't pay much attention to the old. This is an interesting assertion. I will not argue it with you, because you have not given examples. It may or may not be true. If you provide examples, then we certainly can see if you are correct. New Testament: As for what you answered on the other post James: Impure thoughts = Adultery = Hell. This was written in very strait terms in the N. T. of the Bible. But you can always be forgiven? Even the truly revived and righteous fault on impure thoughts every now and then. I am guessing that the question is...are the converted perfect? And the answer is no. Can one be saved up until death? The answer is yes. Can Christians be forgiven of the sins they commit? Yes, if they ask for forgiveness. More sex stuff, You're never allowed to have sex outside of marriage right? guys and girls? It's what it said in the New Testament; many passages say it's ok for guys to break that rule, but I don’t know if it's the new or old. Feel free to remind me, I found them a long time ago and forgot where they were. Those are the best contradictions I can think of. I have never heard of this, but since you made the assertions, then you may need to find verses to back it up. Many times I do help so that I can provide rebuttal...if there is one. But in this case, I am not certain to what you are referring. I feel we are reaching a dead point on this one, so if you don’t respond I really won't take it as I proved you wrong, seriously. It happens a lot, and there is never an agreement when it comes to religion. I would respond further if I knew to what I could respond. It is a good education for me as well. Man made the choice, and from what I've seen about Christians, in many places of the world, is that very few are actual believers... Hell is infinitely larger than heaven. I don’t see why we should put our complete faith in the decisions of man at 100-400 AD. Yes, man did, but it seems that God guided man. And yes, hell is larger than Heaven. "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." (Matthew 7) Revelations is out of line, this book was a lot different then the rest of the N. T., but my church shunned away from this one. Children were not advised to read it. That is sad. It is prophetic and fascinating, and there are different views on it. But the different views do not determine if one is a Christian or not. I think that my view is different than some here (for those who know what this means, I view the amillenialist idea as the most likely interpretation), but this is an interpretation ...not a reason that should keep people from the Bible. I really just wish Jesus could have wrote his own New Testament, but he didn’t. The question becomes...did He really write it through the minds and hands of men? And I say yes. Link to post Share on other sites
swansong519 Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Proverbs 30:5,6 - I believe the writer, is talking about his particular, "book".....(the book of Proverbs) and not the two Testaments. And there we have the one and only reason why religion (any religion) can be problematic.....BELIEF.... Beliefs can be dangerous things....at the very least they stifle debate and restrict the ability of the "believer" to entertain new IDEAS and thus alter there views and perspectives. Beliefs limit a persons growth and render them unable to grow beyond their beliefs. If science dealt with beliefs rather than ideas the world would still be flat and the Earth would stil be the center of the universe. Link to post Share on other sites
Storyrider Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Let's start with this one. It says the Torah shall not be added on to. (Old Testament if you wish) Then came the New Testament. Yep. There are a lot of contradictions of the old testament to the new testament. That is a good one. It also says in the Torah that some of the orginal holy days are to be celebrated forever. And then the Catholic church replaces them all with new holy days, with the argument that Christ's coming makes them unnecesary or transforms them. Link to post Share on other sites
ElvenPriestess Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 That is a good one. It also says in the Torah that some of the orginal holy days are to be celebrated forever. And then the Catholic church replaces them all with new holy days, with the argument that Christ's coming makes them unnecesary or transforms them. Yep, and you can see the verse I quoted from too. There are other things which I can point out but they more hit on the Christian faith and I don't want to offend anyone. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Moose Posted January 10, 2008 Author Share Posted January 10, 2008 Yep, and you can see the verse I quoted from too. There are other things which I can point out but they more hit on the Christian faith and I don't want to offend anyone.Go ahead, so far you haven't proven anything contradictory. The verse you're referring to simple says, "book". There are 66 books total. The author is not talking about the two Testaments.I feel we are reaching a dead point on this one, so if you don’t respond I really won't take it as I proved you wrong, seriously. I'll definitely respond, however I'm at work and have a pretty tight schedule today. So far I like what I've seen. It's challenging, while at the same time I think some people are starting to see where they've been making mistakes with the Bible for years. (many PMs!!) I'll be back, (hopefully) later this evening. Link to post Share on other sites
Storyrider Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 (edited) And there we have the one and only reason why religion (any religion) can be problematic.....BELIEF.... Beliefs can be dangerous things....at the very least they stifle debate and restrict the ability of the "believer" to entertain new IDEAS and thus alter there views and perspectives. Beliefs limit a persons growth and render them unable to grow beyond their beliefs. If science dealt with beliefs rather than ideas the world would still be flat and the Earth would stil be the center of the universe. Religion and science are meant to answer different questions. Even St. Augustine, one of the earliest Church theologians knew this, centuries before the Galileo scandal. If the Church leaders had remembered their Augustine, they might not have made the mistakes they did with Galileo's findings. Look at this: One could ask which shape and form of heaven must be accepted by faith on the authority of Holy Scripture. Many dispute about these things which the sacred writers passed by in silence...in short, the Spirit of God which spoke through them did not wish to teach things which contribute nothing to salvation. and One does not read in the Gospel that the Lord said: I will send you to the Paraclete who will teach you about the course of the sun and moon. For He willed to make them Christians, not mathematicians. Edited January 10, 2008 by Storyrider Link to post Share on other sites
ElvenPriestess Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Go ahead, so far you haven't proven anything contradictory. The verse you're referring to simple says, "book". There are 66 books total. The author is not talking about the two Testaments.I'll definitely respond, however I'm at work and have a pretty tight schedule today. So far I like what I've seen. It's challenging, while at the same time I think some people are starting to see where they've been making mistakes with the Bible for years. (many PMs!!) I'll be back, (hopefully) later this evening. The point of my verses was showing the contradiction of the NT entirely. And I challenge many points on the NT, such as the fact that (I hope nobody gets upset here) Jesus never answered all signs of the messiah. For example he was self proclaimed. It states he would not be self proclaimed. Now there are other things he didn't fulfill, but my question to you is this. It is so often accepted he didn't fulfill or even follow the scriptures predicting Him in the Torah, that now there's a second coming? Moose, if you could, show me please where it talks about a SECOND coming? Link to post Share on other sites
j_hunt_12 Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 I really wish I could give you examples, but I dont have the book with me right now. If you really read the Bible a lot like I did at many times throughout my life you'd know what I'm talking about better and already have an answer for it. These are addressed in the church very often, but very poorly. This is an interesting assertion. I will not argue it with you, because you have not given examples. It may or may not be true. If you provide examples, then we certainly can see if you are correct. How bout you answer the one I gave you: How many wives can you have? The very basic questions are the one's that Christians justify out so quickly, but it is contradiction. I found stories of hate and revenge in the Old Testament and preachings of peace and forgivness in the new. Yes, man did, but it seems that God guided man. Did He? Proove it. It seems to me that man guided God. Much of my later childhood and Early Middle School I thought I had "found the light" I sincerely thought I did. (you'll say I didn't truly find the light, so hold off on that) Whenever I tried to find my way out of a bad situation or something I randomly pick a page in the Bible and read. Hoping God would lead me to an answer. Mostly I found advice for sacrifice and how to plow a field. You know you aren't supposed to plow a field twice, you certainly find your way to hell. I really wish I could find some scriptures for you. Later on I decided to stick with the New Testament. When I thought I should "find my way" again, I mostly got scare tactics and promises of eternal damnation. I finally just read Jesus's words and was a lot more satified with that, but still there are unanswered questions and promises that "once you submit completely, you'll understand." I never could, never will. Muslims tell you to submit completely too and then you'll understand. Does that make it right? Once you submit to anything completely you will see it as clear and right. I am guessing that the question is...are the converted perfect? And the answer is no. Can one be saved up until death? The answer is yes. Can Christians be forgiven of the sins they commit? Yes, if they ask for forgiveness. No, that's not my question. My question is: why would God promise eternal damnation in so many instances if there is always a way out through complete submittance? That is sad. It is prophetic and fascinating, and there are different views on it. But the different views do not determine if one is a Christian or not. I think that my view is different than some here (for those who know what this means, I view the amillenialist idea as the most likely interpretation), but this is an interpretation ...not a reason that should keep people from the Bible. It is sad. I'll look into amillenialist for education's sake. I've never been able to get close to a real answer about Revelations. I think if the Bible is perfect without contradictions we shouldn't have to try to find answers, the answers should be there and straitforward. Ohh yeah... you have to submit completely to understand those answers. You answered most of my questions half way and I definitely see the dead point here, especially considering I don't have a english bible with me, I really don't have the justification to argue with you. And really can't fault you for not answering my questions. Sorry about that. The sites were interesting but mostly just as biased as the Davinci Code believers. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Moose Posted January 10, 2008 Author Share Posted January 10, 2008 Moose, if you could, show me please where it talks about a SECOND coming?You bet I will! After work....I promise! What would be very helpfull (from everyone) is if you can post the specific Scripture(s) you're talking about. If you can't find it, use google.....please Link to post Share on other sites
amethyst3 Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Haven't had time to read this whole thread so forgive me if this has been given already. But there's this list online: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/contradictions.html Link to post Share on other sites
ElvenPriestess Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_lippard/fabulous-prophecies.html#ministry THis is what I found to support the falsification of the messiah, and why I question the second coming. It was easier this way Moose, as the list of scriptures supporting my theory is endless. Link to post Share on other sites
ElvenPriestess Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Haven't had time to read this whole thread so forgive me if this has been given already. But there's this list online: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/contradictions.html Ok that's creepy, same site I was on for my questions and case. Link to post Share on other sites
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