Let's talk about 'LOVE'

[frannie]

Well, this is 'Love' Shack, after all.

 

I've just been moved to write a reply to Owl (great poster) on someone's thread, and realising I was thread jacking, I thought I'd start again with a whole new thread. I'm not entirely sure of the question, if there needs to be one, but bearing in mind this is posted in the OW/OM forum, I was looking for viewpoints on this theme.

 

Here's my original, musing sort of post:

 

----

I suppose I think that in life, most people are just trying to do the best they can. Love is a huge part of life, and to me it's more important than what I'm reading on other threads about morals and God and duty and guilt and so on.

 

I don't really know how to express what I'm feeling/thinking. But it seems to me that we really should value love more than we seem to on 'Love' Shack at times. What about love of our fellow humans who are striving and hoping and wondering what to do for the best?

 

Do 'morals' really out-value love? Do promises you made to someone ten years ago really mean more than your emotional needs today? And does a BS really want someone to stay for duty rather than because they are with the person they most love in the world?

 

Does the moral requirement NOT to have an affair trump the love/need you feel to be there for your children when you no longer love their mother? (personal point of course).

 

I don't think there are any easy answers to these questions.

 

----

 

So... I'm looking for input here, on the theme of love, love for children, parents, love for partners and affair partners. I suppose this is an alternative/parallel to the 'religious beliefs' thread current in the OW/OM forum, but mainly I wanted people to explore the ideas of love in relationships, especially in contrast to other duties or needs.

 

I am doing this because it's a permanent theme on the LS OW/OM forum ('if he loves OW enough he will leave'), and also because it's a theme close to my heart. Personally I know my MM loves me beyond anything, but he feels he needs to be there for his children, and children come first.

 

But that's just MY love theme. What are yours?

 

This thread is open to OW OM MM BS WS and any one and everyone who has a take on LOVE.

Edited January 11, 2008 by frannie
for clarity

[reboot]

Morals? Yes, my "morals" are very important to me. They are who I am. Family, children, home... these are the important things in life. When "love" leads you to betray these things, you are just being selfish. How can something that makes you alone feel good and yet hurts all the other people in your life be love?

 

Nothing any of you say can change the truth in that.

 

Maybe I'm the odd one, but I don't understand how people can love someone one day and not the next.

 

I can buy a new car every few years because I don't love cars. I can't do this with people.

[OWoman]

This is going to sound like a cliche, but I think there are different kinds of love. The love one has for ones kids certainly is imbued with duty - as parents we have those responsibilities and we need to meet them as best we can, whatever form that takes. The love we have for a lover may be different from the older (and possibly tireder) love for a spouse, and that's not even factoring in neuroses which might make one R co-dependent vs another which is not, or whatever.

[Tripper]

I suppose I think that in life, most people are just trying to do the best they can. Love is a huge part of life, and to me it's more important than what I'm reading on other threads about morals and God and duty and guilt and so on.

 

Do 'morals' really out-value love? Do promises you made to someone ten years ago really mean more than your emotional needs today? And does a BS really want someone to stay for duty rather than because they are with the person they most love in the world?

 

Does the moral requirement NOT to have an affair trump the love/need you feel to be there for your children when you no longer love their mother?

 

 

Frannie, this maybe not what you want to hear, but since you asked the question, I feel compelled to respond.

 

Each one of us has a moral compass or set of values that has been developed based on our learnings and life experiences. Some of these values will be cast in concrete others may change as we live life, mature and continue to have experiences.

 

Some will take marriage vows very seriously and stay in a miserable, loveless, sexless marriage and never consider leaving or having an EMA. Others will have absolutely no tolerance for this and enter into a series of EMAs. And everything in between. Individuals will find or justify whatever there comfort level is.

 

EMA, aside from being against marriage vows, created a situation for all parties where there are lies and dishonesty, disrespect, hiding, secrets and guilt. I don't think you will find anyone normal that doesn't have values of honesty and respect in them.

To enter into an EMA and go against these values is to rationalize to oneself why it's ok.

 

Personally I know my MM loves me beyond anything, but he feels he needs to be there for his children, and children come first.

 

And this sounds exactly like what you are doing. Do you really need validation from others to say this is OK?? You are your own judge and I think you may be feeling conflicted otherwise you wouldn't be posting these questions.

 

I'm not going to judge you or use my own values to tell you what is right or wrong, but if your MM really loved you he would find away to bring you and your relationship out of the shadows..

[Owl]

Love is both a feeling...and a verb.

 

I've posted before on my view of love as a feeling.

 

As a verb, it refers to how I treat those I "love".

 

I love (as a verb) my wife. Therefore I choose not to do things that I know would hurt her. Even when (and there are occasional times, like in any relationship) times when she doesn't seem to return that love (as a verb) to me. There are undoubtedly times when she doesn't see that love (as a verb) from me...even though I'm showing it in ways that make sense to me.

 

Read "The Five Love Lanaguages". It makes a lot of sense when you think about it. There are certain things that "make you feel loved". For some, its when someone shows them physical affection...for others, simply carrying on a meaningful conversation...still others, its when their partner "does the little things". And what's interesting is that many times...partners don't 'share the same language'.

 

For my wife, doing the little things makes her feel loved. If I help with the dishes, notice the house is clean when I walk in the door, give her an arm massage...this all makes her feel loved. For me...talking with me, telling me that you love me, and physical affection are what make me feel loved.

 

Part of our 'adjustments' after her affair were learning how each other 'feels loved' and learning to make them feel that way in a way that makes sense to them, instead of what makes sense to ourselves.

 

As part of a way of expressing my love (as a verb( for my wife...I refuse to give in to temptation to opportunities that could grow into feeling love (as a feeling) for someone else.

 

Confused yet?

[Lizzie60]

Hum... this is a tough subject... where do we start..

 

OK.. as for morals... I think (eventhough most don't think so) that I have high morals... I guess I am wired like men... I have many boxes in my brain..

 

I have a box for sex, a box for my family, one for my friends, one for work, etc...etc...

 

I know I am a good person... I am a great mother, grandmother... an great friend... an amazing lover... geezzzz.. I feel good today...

 

The only box who is, as far as others are concerned, f*cked up is my sex box... but in my mind, it's OK... I don't feel I'm doing anyone any harm.

 

So I guess... we all live according to our own rules, and the most important thing, IMO, are the love of my friends and family. The rest, I can live without... I think I have very 'simple' standards...

[OWoman]

How can something that makes you alone feel good and yet hurts all the other people in your life be love?

 

That sounds like the abusive "love" that my MM's W inflicted on the family. Yet she swore blind she loved her H and kids. They're having a hard time now in counselling reconciling that with "love".

 

The love between MM and me has lit up our lives and shone on all of those around us. The social networking pages of his family and friends are full of happy beaming photos of us with them, no photos of his W anywhere. If it was the affair love that was toxic and the M "love" that was pure, I'm sure that would be different.

[reboot]

The love one has for ones kids certainly is imbued with duty

The love I have for anyone I love is "imbued with duty". This is what separates us from the lower life forms. Most any species of animal loves and feels duty to its offspring.

[Owl]

The love I have for anyone I love is "imbued with duty". This is what separates us from the lower life forms. Most any species of animal loves and feels duty to its offspring.

 

 

DITTO!!!! I agree with this completely.

[reboot]

That sounds like the abusive "love" that my MM's W inflicted on the family. Yet she swore blind she loved her H and kids. They're having a hard time now in counselling reconciling that with "love".

 

The love between MM and me has lit up our lives and shone on all of those around us. The social networking pages of his family and friends are full of happy beaming photos of us with them, no photos of his W anywhere. If it was the affair love that was toxic and the M "love" that was pure, I'm sure that would be different.

The question was aimed at us here on LS and how we feel about the topic. It really has nothing to do with your "MM's W" and how screwed up she may or may not be. It's not about affairs, or marriages, or cheating.

 

From the original post, "I wanted people to explore the ideas of love in relationships, especially in contrast to other duties or needs".

 

Let's not turn it into yet another cat fight about cheating or not cheating.

[OWoman]

Read "The Five Love Lanaguages". It makes a lot of sense when you think about it. There are certain things that "make you feel loved". For some, its when someone shows them physical affection...for others, simply carrying on a meaningful conversation...still others, its when their partner "does the little things". And what's interesting is that many times...partners don't 'share the same language'.

 

Is that the Chapman book, Owl?

 

I remember MM and I doing a quiz on that and it turned out we did all of them all the time for each other, but what we both really longed for was touch (maybe because of it being LDR a lot of the time, that's the thing we come to miss most during those times).

[bentnotbroken]

I read the Five Love Languages and the Five Languages of an Apology. They were very helpful. I also think that your own moral compass is telling you what is right, but you are conflicted because it contradicts what you want.

 

Sometimes we all allow our feelings to rule us, take over every aspect of our thinking. We are human and therefore we are emotional, but we have to be the one in control, not the emotions. It is hard, a daily struggle, for me at least, not to let my emotions overrule rational thought and judgment.

 

 

I teach. And there are certain children who make you want to yank them up by their collars and shake them until they understand respecting themselves and everyone else around them. I can't do that, because we all know that it is wrong, on several levels. They are children and I am the adult. They haven't seen the world as I have and know that their actions now won't be tolerated once they are adults. I would be in jail for touching a child. They would learn to distrust adults and become even more intolerable than they already are. And so on and so on.

 

Letting our emotions rule us takes away the true ability to love. To love yourself, your neighbor, your family and so many other things. When an emotion is in control it makes everything and everyone else second. Control allows you to love more fully. To make choices and decisions based on what is best for you and others. I also think that some times the right choice hurts a little at first. It was right for me to divorce Mr. Messy Pants, but it still hurts 23years is a long time, but I loved him and me enough to let him go. And by being faithful to him, I loved him and me enough to respect our vows.

 

Whatever you decide or what ever answers you are looking for, you will always find someone to agree with you and someone to disagree with you. But ultimately, the answer is in you already.

[frannie]

I want everyone to keep contributing and debating this topic in all the ways you're doing. This is not a thread about me, but I just want to bring in my own story, and hope you will all do the same with your stories. So for me:

 

I said: "Personally I know my MM loves me beyond anything, but he feels he needs to be there for his children, and children come first. "

 

And this sounds exactly like what you are doing. Do you really need validation from others to say this is OK?? You are your own judge and I think you may be feeling conflicted otherwise you wouldn't be posting these questions.

 

I'm not going to judge you or use my own values to tell you what is right or wrong, but if your MM really loved you he would find away to bring you and your relationship out of the shadows..

 

I'm not doing this, he is. He is the one married with children. And earlier today we had a phone conversation in which he said that he knew two things: he loves me beyond anything he's ever felt for another human being. And he knows that his view of being a good father is to 'be there' for them. And that he cannot break being a good father, not with any good conscience.

 

He cannot reconcile the two things.

 

Do you really think that he should, or even COULD, break what he views as his duty as a father, because he loves someone other than their mother?

 

He does not think so. Why is this not accepted by so many people?

 

And... in this position, loving someone who feels that way, what else can I do but say to him well in that case I need to live my life without you?

[bentnotbroken]

The love I have for anyone I love is "imbued with duty". This is what separates us from the lower life forms. Most any species of animal loves and feels duty to its offspring.

 

 

 

Definitely true.

[frannie]

From the original post, "I wanted people to explore the ideas of love in relationships, especially in contrast to other duties or needs".

 

Let's not turn it into yet another cat fight about cheating or not cheating.

 

Yes, please let's not. There are plenty of other threads for that.

 

This is all about the conflict between love and other duties/needs, and also about how one can perhaps value love, and acknowledge it, and know that that does NOT necessarily lead to leaving a marriage, nor lead to continuing an affair.

 

One aspect of this is that love can exist, but might not be the primary force in any decision making ('i love you, but i can't leave'). Or, from another angle, such as mine as an OW: 'I love you, but I can't be with you if you are still married'.

 

In my own situation, he loves me but says he can't leave because he needs to be a good father: I love him, but I feel I can't have an affair because I need to be true to my own heart and not be with someone who is married.

Edited January 11, 2008 by frannie
adding

[Lizzie60]

He cannot reconcile the two things.

 

Do you really think that he should, or even COULD, break what he views as his duty as a father, because he loves someone other than their mother?

 

He does not think so. Why is this not accepted by so many people?

 

And... in this position, loving someone who feels that way, what else can I do but say to him well in that case I need to live my life without you?

 

I know exactly how he feels... I'm sure I wouldn't be able to reconcile those two things.. Love for our children is the strongest love ever...

 

I soooo understand fathers that just can't decide to leave their kids... My MM is like that... eventhough he gets depressed and wants to leave sometimes.. especially if he feels I'm being 'distant'...

[reboot]

And he knows that his view of being a good father is to 'be there' for them. And that he cannot break being a good father, not with any good conscience.

 

He cannot reconcile the two things.

 

Do you really think that he should, or even COULD, break what he views as his duty as a father, because he loves someone other than their mother?

 

He does not think so. Why is this not accepted by so many people?

I think the people that don't accept this are mostly women. A lot of women just simply do not understand the male psyche.

 

Men (for the most part) have a deeply ingrained sense of responsibility and duty. We are almost genetically bound to care for and protect those we consider our responsibility. It's why you hear so many stories about men that cheat and fall in love with some other woman but will not leave their families to be with them.

 

It's really not strange at all.

[OWoman]

The question was aimed at us here on LS and how we feel about the topic. It really has nothing to do with your "MM's W" and how screwed up she may or may not be. It's not about affairs, or marriages, or cheating.

 

From the original post, "I wanted people to explore the ideas of love in relationships, especially in contrast to other duties or needs".

 

Let's not turn it into yet another cat fight about cheating or not cheating.

 

That wasn't my point. My point was that from WITHIN a R (of whatever kind) someone can view their actions or approach as loving, while the effect on others might be quite different.

[OWoman]

The love I have for anyone I love is "imbued with duty".

 

I love my friends dearly, but when one phones late at night because her car has broken down and she can't get home, it's not duty that gets me out there, it's choice.

[reboot]

That wasn't my point. My point was that from WITHIN a R (of whatever kind) someone can view their actions or approach as loving, while the effect on others might be quite different.

And my point was that the "effect on others" is my first consideration.

[Tripper]

I'm not doing this, he is. He is the one married with children. And earlier today we had a phone conversation in which he said that he knew two things: he loves me beyond anything he's ever felt for another human being. And he knows that his view of being a good father is to 'be there' for them. And that he cannot break being a good father, not with any good conscience.

 

He cannot reconcile the two things.

 

Do you really think that he should, or even COULD, break what he views as his duty as a father, because he loves someone other than their mother?

 

He does not think so. Why is this not accepted by so many people?

 

And... in this position, loving someone who feels that way, what else can I do but say to him well in that case I need to live my life without you?

 

 

Well, Frannie, I may be a bit old fashioned but his love for you (and his needs) should be superseded by his duty to his children and their needs. After all he helped bring them into the world and they are partially his responsibility.

 

As far as being accepted that's not the issue. If he were to divorce the mother, be with you and continue to provide for his children, in my mind, there is no problem with acceptability. Today the whole concept of nuclear family is redefined and his situation is not unique.

But how does he look at himself in the mirror when it's his duty to be a role model to his children and yet he cheats on his wife?? This resonates with me because I grew up in a similar situation.

 

While you love him, what is your duty?? I would think it is to live your life to your standards. If you are happy being in a relationship with a MM and enabling him to betray his W then you don't need to change a thing.

 

My own philosophy of living is that you have the right to do anything you want as long as it doesn't infringe on or impact the well being or lives of anyone else. And that is often hard to do unless you live like a hermit.

[Kasan]

Men (for the most part) have a deeply ingrained sense of responsibility and duty. We are almost genetically bound to care for and protect those we consider our responsibility. It's why you hear so many stories about men that cheat and fall in love with some other woman but will not leave their families to be with them.

 

It's really not strange at all.

 

I honestly never knew that.

[reboot]

I love my friends dearly, but when one phones late at night because her car has broken down and she can't get home, it's not duty that gets me out there, it's choice.

If you were my friend, and you were hungry, and I had but one biscuit to my name, I would give you half of it. That is both love and duty. It's how I was raised.

[OWoman]

Men (for the most part) have a deeply ingrained sense of responsibility and duty. We are almost genetically bound to care for and protect those we consider our responsibility. It's why you hear so many stories about men that cheat and fall in love with some other woman but will not leave their families to be with them.

 

Reboot - while this makes sense to a degree, how do you square this with all the stories you hear about "deadbeat dads", who abandon their kids and wives and don't support them? Maintenance courts can't keep up! One seldom hears of mothers abandoning their kids - certainly there are some, but nowhere near as many fathers that do that. Are these guys genetically programmed differently, or how can there be such very different responses with equal vehemence?

[OWoman]

If you were my friend, and you were hungry, and I had but one biscuit to my name, I would give you half of it. That is both love and duty. It's how I was raised.

 

I would do the same - but because I loved you and wanted to, not because I felt I ought to or because I felt you were owed it. Not sure if it's a different spin on the same thing, or a different thing?

 

Edit: Whereas, in my childrens' case, I WOULD feel that I ought to. Not out of resentment or that I wouldn't have chosen to, but I would also feel that sense of duty.