Let's talk about 'LOVE'

[reboot]

I didn't say anything about cheating or called BS fool. Please don't twist what I said!

I'm sorry, I probably shouldn't have quoted you, I wasn't referring to you in particular. Just using your post in general. I certainly didn't mean to twist what you said.

 

What I said is honest to onself and happiness and love is more important than duty!

And I respectfully disagree with this. Duty to my loved ones, my family, my friends supercedes any (selfish) desires for myself. That's just how I feel, and there's not much point in arguing about it. You are welcome to feel however you want, and to do whatever makes you happy. I am not saying you're wrong and I'm right. I do what's right for me and you should do the same.

[scaredinlove]

Are you saying that if you and your MM got together, got married, you would be OK with him having a concubine(s), an OW on the side while you were his wife, having children with him?

 

 

 

No! I said if my H didn't want to be with me I would rather him leave. I said that satying married only because you think it is your duty is not a good thing.Cause you should not be forcing yourself to love your spouse, it should be natural. The kids don't want that burden either.

 

Moral should not be the reason why you stay married cause moral is something that can change from place to place and time to time.

 

Example : in the past couples could not leave together unless they were married. Now most people live together before they get married.

 

 

Sorry if I got you all confused.

[reboot]

Moral should not be the reason why you stay married cause moral is something that can change from place to place and time to time.

 

Example : in the past couples could not leave together unless they were married. Now most people live together before they get married.

But you're talking about "societorial" morals or "religious" morals. I don't think that's what frannie meant, and I know for sure it's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about personal convictions, our own personal standards of right and wrong, that may or may not be related to what a certain society or a religion thinks.

[scaredinlove]

I'm sorry, I probably shouldn't have quoted you, I wasn't referring to you in particular. Just using your post in general. I certainly didn't mean to twist what you said.

 

And I respectfully disagree with this. Duty to my loved ones, my family, my friends supercedes any (selfish) desires for myself. That's just how I feel, and there's not much point in arguing about it. You are welcome to feel however you want, and to do whatever makes you happy. I am not saying you're wrong and I'm right. I do what's right for me and you should do the same.

 

 

That is right, we don't have to agree...

I do feel that sometimes duty can be a bad thing. Like you have to buy someone a gift because that is their birthday.

 

I think you should WANT to buy that person a gift, not feel obligated. Do you understand what I mean?

 

Like you should want to be with your spouse even if you are not in love anymore, cuse we all know passion fades... But I don't think you should feel obliged to stay.

 

I don't think force yourself because of duty , cause it is fake.

[NoIdeaAtAll]

Wow. I wish I could say something wise and knowing, but I have no idea what that would be except to offer you my sympathy. Your situation makes mine seem trite by comparison. My son's problems were mostly of his own doing (with a little help from his mother and me), not something related to a medical condition. Just plain old teenage stupidity.

 

I hope you and your husband can find some way to put the pieces of your lives back together, one way or the other. I guess sometimes when life hands us lemons we just have to suck on them.

 

 

Well see that's when it all goes belly up - because when you suck on the lemons for so long you take the sweeteners when you can. So, when all the above happens - and 18months down the line, when the child is placed in care because he has attempted suicide, when you just really dont wanna wake up in the morning because it's all so painful - you then meet someone. He is married - but he has separated. You finally find something in your life that gives you the peace you never imagined you would - but then - you also cant be with him because his children won't accept that he has feelings for your child - mainly the one with the problems. So, its like you get another punch in the face - except this time - its an emotional one that you really dont know if you can live with.

And meanwhile - all your values, morals, everything - disappears into nothing. You have nothing left.

 

LOVE seems to hurt so bad.

 

Please dont say your situation is less painful than mine. Pain is pain in whatever form and you sound as tho - from your first thread - that you will use the power of love to bring your marriage through. That makes you an incredible person. You should be very proud of who you are.

 

My husband has gone on to find happiness with another and tho we still love one another he is in better shape than I am- and good for him because that is what I wanted for him. He wants the same for me too. We are pretty unique in that way. We talk every day and will always care for one another. We just couldnt stay together - we could not remain married.

 

As for me - well - falling in love with someone who is married - who is separated - living on his own - but I cant be with because again, his love for his children and their feelings - has to betray his love for me.

 

I wish that LOVE really was all powerful for the greater good. My world doesnt seem to embrace it that way - and believe me, I'm trying. Getting up each day is a struggle. About to have major surgery - won't be able to walk for a fair few months - wishing at times that maybe it's easier just to keep sleeping instead of waking up.

 

Its all just pants really.

But thanku for letting me have my say.

 

There are some compassionate people in the world.

[scaredinlove]

But you're talking about "societorial" morals or "religious" morals. I don't think that's what frannie meant, and I know for sure it's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about personal convictions, our own personal standards of right and wrong, that may or may not be related to what a certain society or a religion thinks.

 

 

 

Ok! but you see if you say you staying with your wife becsue of your kids ONLY. How fais is that to anyone.

 

Does the wife wants that? do the kids need that burden???

 

I was talking about personal convictions too, but i guess I am not being clear enough,since everbody misunderstood it.

[reboot]

Ok! but you see if you say you staying with your wife becsue of your kids ONLY. How fais is that to anyone.

Beats me. I have personally never said I would stay with my wife for the kids only. I'm sure there are men that do stay for that reason, but I think that often as not it's just an excuse they use. *shrug*

[lovernotafighter]

the best spin I have on love for all I know:

 

Love is the ability and willingness to allow those that you care for to be what they choose for themselves without any insistence that they satisfy you.

[Woggle]

The problem is that what many people think of as love is just a chemical high that will fade out eventually. Many people seem incapable of growing that infatuation into real love past that point. It's just a me me me mentality where people are using somebody for an emotional high until they are used up and then they move on to the next person. I have come to the conclusion that the majority of our society is incapable of true lasting love. I think general your MM is doing the right thing but if he is so concerned about his family he never would have cheated in the first place.

[brothermartin]

"Love? Overrated. Biochemically, no different than eating large amounts of chocolate."

 

Al Pacino as The Devil in "The devil's Advocate"

[Storyrider]

Well, this is 'Love' Shack, after all.

 

I've just been moved to write a reply to Owl (great poster) on someone's thread, and realising I was thread jacking, I thought I'd start again with a whole new thread. I'm not entirely sure of the question, if there needs to be one, but bearing in mind this is posted in the OW/OM forum, I was looking for viewpoints on this theme.

 

Here's my original, musing sort of post:

 

----

I suppose I think that in life, most people are just trying to do the best they can. Love is a huge part of life, and to me it's more important than what I'm reading on other threads about morals and God and duty and guilt and so on.

 

I don't really know how to express what I'm feeling/thinking. But it seems to me that we really should value love more than we seem to on 'Love' Shack at times. What about love of our fellow humans who are striving and hoping and wondering what to do for the best?

 

Do 'morals' really out-value love? Do promises you made to someone ten years ago really mean more than your emotional needs today? And does a BS really want someone to stay for duty rather than because they are with the person they most love in the world?

 

Does the moral requirement NOT to have an affair trump the love/need you feel to be there for your children when you no longer love their mother? (personal point of course).

 

I don't think there are any easy answers to these questions.

 

----

 

So... I'm looking for input here, on the theme of love, love for children, parents, love for partners and affair partners. I suppose this is an alternative/parallel to the 'religious beliefs' thread current in the OW/OM forum, but mainly I wanted people to explore the ideas of love in relationships, especially in contrast to other duties or needs.

 

I am doing this because it's a permanent theme on the LS OW/OM forum ('if he loves OW enough he will leave'), and also because it's a theme close to my heart. Personally I know my MM loves me beyond anything, but he feels he needs to be there for his children, and children come first.

 

But that's just MY love theme. What are yours?

 

This thread is open to OW OM MM BS WS and any one and everyone who has a take on LOVE.

 

I plan to go back and read all the responses, but I just wanted to reply to your original post first. On the favorite movies thread, people were talking about the film "The English Patient." Like it or hate it, this subject is exactly what that film explores. Does love transcend right and wrong under some circumstances?

[justice]

There are so many facets regarding love that it's impossible to define this emotion. When I was married, I loved my husband. I felt and thought and trusted that he would never hurt me, but he did.

"Duty." I don't like that word when its used in conjunction with marriage. At all. To me, if you really and truly love someone, duty should never come into play. If you truly love someone, but not enough to be faithful, you should at least still care about them enough to be honest when you want to or feel like having an affair. You should let them go right then and there, instead of staying out of duty which hurts them even more.

 

I don't feel like love can ever really be defined, there is way too much involved with it for it to ever be fully explained. I know it exists for some, but for me, I'm through with it in the romantic sense.

 

I do know I love my daughters and my grandkids and my sisters and at least I know that kind of love is a true love and will always remain pure and unsullied.

 

As for romantic love, it isn't for me. I don't like feeling the intense pain that it brought me. No thank you very much.

[GreenEyedLady]

ABSOLUTELY!!

 

It should also blow away the idea that they will never lie to you either...

 

Who would go into a R thinking their partner would never lie to them? I think that's unrealistic...

 

If your W asks you if she looks fat and she does, would you really tell her that?

[silktricks]

Do 'morals' really out-value love? Do promises you made to someone ten years ago really mean more than your emotional needs today? And does a BS really want someone to stay for duty rather than because they are with the person they most love in the world?

 

Does the moral requirement NOT to have an affair trump the love/need you feel to be there for your children when you no longer love their mother? (personal point of course).

 

Love can die. That's one of the unfortunate truths of life. Why it dies is rather moot after it's gone, so I won't go into that. So the next question is what does a person do after love has died.

 

Do you stay for the children? I don't think anyone can answer that for another person. My opinion is no, you don't. A parent needn't live with the children to be a good and loving parent. Yes, there will be changes in your and your children's lives, but those changes if dealt with will not harm either the children or your relationship with them.

 

But if love has died, and you have met someone else, it is not, in my opinion, beneficial for anyone to stay married to the person you don't love while loving someone else. Not unless the three people involved discuss the situation and agree that is the best solution for everyone. It's simply not right. Not fair, not whatever you want to call it...

 

It's not fair to the betrayed spouse. He/she should have the right to also find someone else to love. It's not fair to the affair partner. He/she shouldn't have to live in the shadows. It's not fair to the "cheating" partner. He/she must live a lie, and that is simply not good for your own self. It's not fair to the children. They are not given a true picture of what a marriage can be, and instead see as their life model a couple who are living together, not in harmony, but in relative isolation from love.

 

So, if you want to call it morals or belief in God, or simply life harmony, it is IMO necessary to clean up your messes behind you.

[GreenEyedLady]

Silktricks:

 

I think your post is right-on...

[White Flower]

Confused yet?

No, this was a good post and quite clear. You are lucky that you were able to get over the A, communicate to each other and learn each other's love languages and continue to improve the R. I am happy for you:)

 

But there are many of us who do not have spouses that are willing to try using these tools to improve or fix their Ms.

 

I think the universe wants us to be strong and learn to leave when it's clear it's not going to work. I suppose within that group, some of us need to get over our title of "dedicated" or "loyal as a lionness" and not wait til it's so bad that we finally do it.

[PoshPrincess]

I think we all have different views and morals with regards to love and just because one doesn't agree with the other doesn't mean they don't have any - even us OW have morals !

 

Personally, I don't think marriage and relationships should ever be considered a duty. I don't believe we should stay with anyone out of duty if we are no longer in love with that person. I know that if I was with someone and they no longer loved me I wouldn't want them to feel dutybound to stay with me, particularly if they were in love with someone else. That would be the worse thing imagineable as far as I'm concerned. But like I said, we all have different views. Religion makes a difference too of course. I'm not particularly religious but if people believe they HAVE to stay with someone because of the vows they made in front of God, etc, then that's fine. What's right for one person isn't necessarily right for someone else.

 

I left the father of my child because I had fallen out of love. We were right for each other when we were 26 but years later things had changed. I am not sure that either of us changed personally - we were good together as a childless couple - I suppose we just didn't adapt to family life in the same way. Now that we are separated we are much better parents. Of course, the love I have for my child far outweighs any love I could ever possibly have for anyone else. I don't believe I should have stayed with my son's Dad for his sake. I am not sure that he would have been any happier if we had stayed together - who can say? I just know that I couldn't have stayed, being that unhappy, and that me being unhappy wouldn't have had a positive effect on my son.

 

That decision was right for ME. A man who stays with his kids rather than leave to be with his OW who he truly loves is no better or worse than the man who leaves his kids to be with his OW. They are just different. Of course any decent man loves his kids beyond anyone or anything else, but I firmly believe that a man can be a good father whether he lives with his kids or not. My ex is living proof of that. He is a better father now as he regularly has sole responsibility for his son and spends much more quality time with him.

[jaslene2009]

I agree with you on those points. See, I think men only say they can't leave their children because they are afraid of being out side of that comfort zone. In my opinion , a MM can still be a great father even if he does not live in the same house with his kids. The rest is BS and they know it. A MM or MW can still keep the comittment of being a great parent to their children and not be in a relationship with the so call miserable SO.

Well, Frannie, I may be a bit

old

fashioned but his love for you (and his needs) should be superseded by his duty to his children and their needs. After all he helped bring them into the world and they are partially his responsibility.

 

As far as being accepted that's not the issue. If he were to divorce the mother, be with you and continue to provide for his children, in my mind, there is no problem with acceptability. Today the whole concept of nuclear family is redefined and his situation is not unique.

But how does he look at himself in the mirror when it's his duty to be a role model to his children and yet he cheats on his wife?? This resonates with me because I grew up in a similar situation.

 

While you love him, what is your duty?? I would think it is to live your life to your standards. If you are happy being in a relationship with a

MM

and enabling him to betray his

W

then you don't need to change a thing.

 

My own philosophy of living is that you have the right to do anything you want as long as it doesn't infringe on or impact the well being or lives of anyone else. And that is often hard to do unless you live like a hermit.

 

[jaslene2009]

Look at that postion from both sides of the coin. How many men are able to see their children without the exW parental alienating them. It is a diaster family court judges need to fix. Maybe we would not have so many dead beat dads and mothers. The family courts should be about union regardless of the circumstances. There is nothing worse than going through a divorce and you cannot see your kids without a hassle from your crazy ex. Yes, I believe that ex's that do this to their children are crazy. The divorce is enough. There is no reason to make children choose a parent.

Reboot - while this makes sense to a degree, how do you square this with all the stories you hear about "deadbeat dads", who abandon their kids and wives and don't support them? Maintenance courts can't keep up! One seldom hears of mothers abandoning their kids - certainly there are some, but nowhere near as many fathers that do that. Are these guys genetically programmed differently, or how can there be such very different responses with equal vehemence?

 

[bentnotbroken]

My children chose the parent who the respected the most. I encourage them to spend time with their dad, but I am not upset that they don't. I alienated them when he dogged them out to the ow, and they haven't forgotten that.

[st951]

----

 

So... I'm looking for input here, on the theme of love, love for children, parents, love for partners and affair partners. I suppose this is an alternative/parallel to the 'religious beliefs' thread current in the OW/OM forum, but mainly I wanted people to explore the ideas of love in relationships, especially in contrast to other duties or needs.

 

[snip]

 

But that's just MY love theme. What are yours?

 

 

My love theme is that you can't force anybody to love you, to respect you, or to be faithful to you. And if you have kids with somebody, you can't expect their total support 100% of the time.

 

People expect too much without doing their homework. They think a piece of paper entitles them to all of the above, and it doesn't. IMHO very few people should be married and even fewer should reproduce. It takes 0.5-4 years to get to know somebody. If everyone waited 4 years before marrying or spawning, and absolutely nixed anyone who was abusive or unfaithful or had wandering eyes or or gained 100 lbs or what not, there would not be so much infidelity in this world.

 

Maybe a certificate of intent to marry with a strictly enforced contract that held for 4 years before marriage that was easy to exit but would make marriage impossible would help to prevent subsequent bad marriages.

 

Don't expect a piece of paper to work miracles.

 

If somebody loves me, he loves me. If he wants to stay with me, he does. A piece of paper won't change that. Neither will being sloppy about birth control.

[OpenBook]

I'm beginning to see why romance has not typically been an expectation in marriage until the last 150 years or so (and frankly I'm not really sure why it is now). Marriage is basically a business partnership between two people. They promise to take care of each other for the rest of their lives. If you give me this, I'll give you that. There's a payoff. This is not what real love is.

 

Real, pure love is given freely to someone, without any expectations in return, and without considering the harm it may bring to oneself.

 

I did not think it was possible for me to love that way until my daughter came along.

 

And I am also in love with a man who is out of reach. It does not matter. I love him anyway... simply because he is who he is. I feel lucky to even know him at all. And I think I am loving him better by staying away from him. I don't want to bring him any pain or sadness or anything negative. No matter how much it hurts me to stay away.

 

But somehow, I'm not hurting. It brings me great joy to know that everything is working out as it should. That I'm not forcing or pushing anything to happen. That the thoughts of him (and his thoughts of me) are untarnished by any actions. We've not done anything wrong.

 

Not yet, anyway.

 

Yeesh this is sappy. Sorry!